U Cele Bro?

[Zyreva.1078]

53 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

you keep implying Cele works everywhere.

I kinda does, no? I can't think of anything where cele absolutely does not work, but maybe you can enlighten me?

53 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

So are you are really saying Cele is BiS everyware?

No, that's not what i'm saying, implying or basing my argumentation arround.

[apharma.3741]

4 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Quote

So are you are really saying Cele is BiS everyware?

No, that's not what i'm saying, implying or basing my argumentation arround.

Then what are you trying to say because that is what I and others have been saying, that cele is not BiS for every build.
If you're trying to say that cele is not BiS but can work in every build then yeah captain obvious, when you have moderate all stats it works to some degree in all builds.

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, apharma.3741 said:

Then what are you trying to say

Really? Am i speaking an alien language? I know my english isn't perfect, but is it really that bad?

Tell me what's so incomprehensible about statements like those:

On 6/18/2023 at 11:13 AM, Zyreva.1078 said:

The very moment conc and exp got added completely for free to a stat combination that previously was more or less balanced, it became op.

On 6/23/2023 at 10:07 AM, Zyreva.1078 said:

good cele builds, [...] are just on a completely different lvl

6 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Good cele builds outperform everything else [...]

But i am asking for stats to be balanced relative to each other, at least numbers wise. Which cele is clearly not.

And no, being able to make bad cele builds does not dispute it's opness. You could double rapid fire dmg and still make plenty of bad longbow ranger builds. Do you also think double dmg on rapid fire would be balanced? I doubt ... but it would be if you apply the same logic that you are applying to cele.

Edited June 25, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[Kryptic.4978]

9 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Hence why I call out your word choice, you keep implying Cele works everywhere. Hence why I will have to feel the need to say no. So are you are really saying Cele is BiS everyware? I disagree there and say yes it is BiS in Cele builds. But telling everyone just drop Cele in everywhere is a disservice. And will continue to disagree.

So How does Cele not work anywhere?  It can even work as a support.  That is the problem with cele.  Most people say that cele is good for the new players to learn the game but that is  such a terrible reason to put something in a Pvp scenario to help neew players since the vets will use the same things and use it way more efficiently.  New players will die on cele or zerk gear all the same because they have no idea what they are doing.   Me fighting a vet cele player on my zerk/mara build  feels like I am not fighting a person I am fighting a gear set.                                                   

[Polar.8634]

i keep hearing that cele was designed for new player, did anyone from anet confirm it? feels like someone trolled few years ago and everybody repeats. If it is for new player, why is it not new player exlusive set.

[Lalary.3561]

On 6/24/2023 at 5:48 AM, Axelteas.7192 said:

Few classes get benefit from ALL the stats in cele, only guardian and ele. If you nerf the stats you screw the other classes.

You couldn't be more wrong in this subject. If two equally skilled players fought each, I guarantee you cele will come out on top of most of builds/specs out there.

[Invictorum.7643]

Tbh, the problem with Cele stats mostly stems from a design decision from Anet to move away from their original Boon design, which was shorter term, but bigger power. To this day, I still believe that no single class should be able to get and maintain 25 stacks of might on their own.

 

Until Cele is unable to maintain comparable power/condi damage compared to Berserker or Vipers, it will simply be the more functional choice in situations where you are able to get the benefit of all of those extra stats, like WvW when you can just augment it further with the massive selection of runes/sigils we have for PvE, food, etc. And let's not forget the largest offenders currently, being Elementalist due to its baked in expansive tool kit, Necromancer and its skill passives, and Mesmer for the versatility of its design. But cele can be made to be a problem on almost every class tbh.

[apharma.3741]

7 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Really? Am i speaking an alien language? I know my english isn't perfect, but is it really that bad?

Tell me what's so incomprehensible about statements like those:

And no, being able to make bad cele builds does not dispute it's opness. You could double rapid fire dmg and still make plenty of bad longbow ranger builds. Do you also think double dmg on rapid fire would be balanced? I doubt ... but it would be if you apply the same logic that you are applying to cele.

But I never said cele builds were OP or UP, what I've been saying is that perfect stats for the builds are OP. That minstrels on support, zerk on high damage roamers and trailblazer on condition focused are all every bit as broken.

Then I said that one of the reasons cele is so strong is also that ANet have been giving everything to elite specs allowing them to scale well with everything.

I've typed this, what, 3 times now? Do you agree with this or not? A simple yes or no will suffice instead of some tangential post about something completely different.

[babana.7521]

3 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

But I never said cele builds were OP or UP, what I've been saying is that perfect stats for the builds are OP. That minstrels on support, zerk on high damage roamers and trailblazer on condition focused are all every bit as broken.

Then I said that one of the reasons cele is so strong is also that ANet have been giving everything to elite specs allowing them to scale well with everything.

I've typed this, what, 3 times now? Do you agree with this or not? A simple yes or no will suffice instead of some tangential post about something completely different.

If every profession has something that is "broken" than I want to repeat myself, therefore they are all balance. 

[Sereath.1428]

That's crazy, now we have people trying to rationalize that Celestial and even Trailblazer are just as broken as Berserker gear.
-
>
"It's all fair guys. Power Herald in full Berserker is as broken as full Celestial Harbinger at dueling and massacring groups of players. Deathstrike scary."
>
"What do you mean berserker builds arent OP?
Burst damage 10/10
DPS 8/10
Sustain 3/10
Support 0/10

That looks hella strong to me. My Celestial build cant kill kitten as fast :c
Burst damage 7/10
DPS 9/10
Sustain 8/10
Support 8/10

And don't you dare say anything about my sustain and boons! A Minstrels spec still has better healing and boon uptime!
So it's clearly not the best at anything!
I need this sustain otherwise Id have to make use of terrain aka move aka think, in order to effectively kill groups of players by myself."
>
"Power, Precision and Ferocity are kinda problematic as well guys. So what about instead of getting rid of Celestial we go for the fair route and also get rid of every attribute except for Power and Condition Damage, now that would would be epicly balanced, esports ready."
>
"Berserker is equally strong as Celestial since your build gets the perfect stats to do full damage! Well, it just so happens that the builds I like are good at everything, so it's only fair that Celestial is good at everything." 
>
-
And again, the world isn't black and white.

• Boon uptime needs to be addressed, but on a case-by-case basis, because it's not that simple, that's why a global nerf to boons would be as disastrous as the 2020 feb global damage + CC nerf. kittening lazy.
  Thats why I used Power Herald as an example above, a boon-dependent spec that is now unplayable in small scale/roaming due to the power creep of other specs.
  You should not just globally nerf boons/things just because.
  Not without an actual follow-up plan.

 

• The existence of Celestial completely deletes the need to think and make use of the other 40+ attribute combinations, it essentially makes old content obsolete. And makes balancing boons even more of a pain that it should.
  It's very simple.

This is also one of the reasons why the developers don't want to commit to any meaningful changes, for fear of losing even more players.
And since over half the builds outside of blobing use Celestial nowadays. This feels hopeless.

Edited June 27, 2023 by XxsdgxX.8109

[TheGrimm.5624]

 

12 hours ago, Kryptic.4978 said:

So How does Cele not work anywhere?  It can even work as a support.  That is the problem with cele.  Most people say that cele is good for the new players to learn the game but that is  such a terrible reason to put something in a Pvp scenario to help neew players since the vets will use the same things and use it way more efficiently.  New players will die on cele or zerk gear all the same because they have no idea what they are doing.   Me fighting a vet cele player on my zerk/mara build  feels like I am not fighting a person I am fighting a gear set.                                                   

I think you had a typo, so will wait to verify, did you mean everywhere? The typo ponteially changes the discussion so sorry if that leaves my reply open but wanted to make sure of your point.

[TheGrimm.5624]

20 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

No, that's not what i'm saying, implying or basing my argumentation arround.

Sometimes you do come across as it's BiS in all spots, which I don't think you mean, hence the counter posts. It detracts from other points which you are trying to make. Again, I may seem to be trolling, not doing that just trying to clarify points for people not actaully posting so we all have a clear picture on people's points.

[TheGrimm.5624]

11 hours ago, Polar.8634 said:

i keep hearing that cele was designed for new player, did anyone from anet confirm it? feels like someone trolled few years ago and everybody repeats. If it is for new player, why is it not new player exlusive set.

I will have to find the reference again. It was something along the lines that ANet changed the level 80 booster to drop Cele exotic gear in the booster since it was serviceable for all classes. Will see if I can find it again.

[TheGrimm.5624]

11 hours ago, Lalary.3561 said:

You couldn't be more wrong in this subject. If two equally skilled players fought each, I guarantee you cele will come out on top of most of builds/specs out there.

So how did you perform your tests to prove this to yourself out of curiosity? If you don't mind me asking?

Edited June 26, 2023 by TheGrimm.5624
additional question

[TheGrimm.5624]

 

12 hours ago, Polar.8634 said:

i keep hearing that cele was designed for new player, did anyone from anet confirm it? feels like someone trolled few years ago and everybody repeats. If it is for new player, why is it not new player exlusive set.

 

So to be fair the refernce I was referring to was: 

• All level-80 equipment granted by the Level-80 Boost is now of the Celestial (all attributes) stat set. This is not retroactive; only Level-80 Boosts used after this update will receive Celestial equipment. Previously, most professions were given Soldiers (power, toughness, vitality) equipment. The intent of this change is to ensure that all characters using a Level-80 Boost are given a serviceable equipment set that will allow players to experiment freely with their skill and trait choices and not result in situations in which their chosen traits and skills are entirely unsupported by their equipment.

Reference: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2021-10-05

Hope that helps.

 

[Polar.8634]

3 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

• All level-80 equipment granted by the Level-80 Boost is now of the Celestial (all attributes) stat set. This is not retroactive; only Level-80 Boosts used after this update will receive Celestial equipment. Previously, most professions were given Soldiers (power, toughness, vitality) equipment. The intent of this change is to ensure that all characters using a Level-80 Boost are given a serviceable equipment set that will allow players to experiment freely with their skill and trait choices and not result in situations in which their chosen traits and skills are entirely unsupported by their equipment.

Reference: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2021-10-05

Hope that helps.

this still does not explain why cele gear is not new player exclusive. If they just buff equipement stat set, it is for everyone. 

even if their intent was to make it beginner set, it failed.

[Zyreva.1078]

15 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Do you agree with this or not?

No.

[TheGrimm.5624]

6 hours ago, Polar.8634 said:

this still does not explain why cele gear is not new player exclusive. If they just buff equipement stat set, it is for everyone. 

even if their intent was to make it beginner set, it failed.

Their intent for that change was to drop a gear set that was serviceable for all builds. Before that it was PVT gear which was inefficient for many builds that wasn't power orientated. Cele was jack of all trades and though wasn't BiS it could still work as a starting set for all builds. Now move forward in time and we have Cele builds that can better utilize the stat set. Over the years we had some and but with each set of elites more classes received builds that could better use the set.

[dead.7638]

Make cele exotic only.   This way new players get it from the start with the lvl 80 boost, same as it is now.   And it keeps the stat for the newer players as intended.

[Val.7826]

On 6/17/2023 at 12:31 AM, Ubi.4136 said:

like why willbender has heavy armor but thief mobility

Sometimes it feels like guardian stole the E-Spec that thief should have received instead, an aggressive shadow-fire duelist with a sword off-hand.

[TheGrimm.5624]

9 hours ago, dead.7638 said:

Make cele exotic only.   This way new players get it from the start with the lvl 80 boost, same as it is now.   And it keeps the stat for the newer players as intended.

Over a decade all sets have seen similar requests from all styles of armor sets. Still makes me smile when Comms asked people to use PVT and the Zerk crowd called them out asking for PVT to be nerfed since it was OP while Condi said can we not hit like a wet noodle in the hammer train days. Times change but patterns repeat.

Edited June 27, 2023 by TheGrimm.5624

[Polar.8634]

16 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Their intent for that change was to drop a gear set that was serviceable for all builds. Before that it was PVT gear which was inefficient for many builds that wasn't power orientated. Cele was jack of all trades and though wasn't BiS it could still work as a starting set for all builds. Now move forward in time and we have Cele builds that can better utilize the stat set. Over the years we had some and but with each set of elites more classes received builds that could better use the set.

they introduced cele changes after pof, and there are plenty pre eod professions that utilize cele set over the top. Its not like they could not test it before releasing, and i thing they did not test anything whatever their intention was. Cele is not just your jack of all trades starter set now.

[hugeboss.5432]

It's a myth that "Cele" is what makes things suddenly OP!

I hear newbie players talking in mapchat about "cele players", since it's the current excuse for getting rekt. But when I engage them, I don't notice anything out of the ordinary and 99% of the time I will end up killing them (if i'm not semi afk).

But, if your packing full berserker, you will go down before you can outdps the extra sustain (that's normal for all stat sets). In combat simulations (for designing builds using math), we found full marauder will kill full berserker in theoretical 1on1 combat, but only due to the extra vitality marauder has. DPS wise, full berserker was slightly better (but tons more squishy!). If ur in a zerg, as a dps running full cele, ppl will be wondering why your dps is really low! So, it's kinda relevant what situation your in. Sustain is a key feature here, as cele is far from best dps.

I would say the hardest thing to kill, is usually the same one class above all, that has the widest variety of combat skills for every combat situation with their weapon set. It's not simply to slap on cele stats and think your gonna kill 96% of the players on the map. But, take rune of ********* on a full ******** stated toon [censored], and check out how much combat efficiency that suddenly makes anyone.. That is a huge bump in wvw OP rating, without using celestial at all (don't want to make a "new thing", so not specifying what exactly).

[I've been making builds+gear templates for a few servers/guilds, for all classes since launch. I would rate celestial as a "viable" option for a few classes & sometimes even a solid option. However, it's never going to be optimal for every situation, it's the "flexible option". You can design a better stat template (if u know what u are doing & know what you are going to do) without using celestial.]

Celestial has traditionally been one of the hardest to get & most expensive stat sets in game, it's been like that since launch. Without the added bonus stats, it drops in value & efficiency behind other stats.

[Zyreva.1078]

48 minutes ago, hugeboss.5432 said:

Celestial has traditionally been one of the hardest to get & most expensive stat sets in game, it's been like that since launch.

Incorrect and irrelevant for balance.

48 minutes ago, hugeboss.5432 said:

Without the added bonus stats, it drops in value & efficiency behind other stats.

Incorrect, there have been very strong and sometimes even op cele builds during various periods, long before it received those massive buffs. Which proves that it wasn't innately weaker than other strong stats (even a nerfed! version was still good enough for some crazy op meta builds in spvp).

Edited June 27, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[Nefras.7314]

1 hour ago, hugeboss.5432 said:

 

Celestial has traditionally been one of the hardest to get & most expensive stat sets in game, it's been like that since launch. Without the added bonus stats, it drops in value & efficiency behind other stats.

yeah man cuz legendary armor is so hard to get ;_;

bruh please