DeathPanel.8362 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 2 minutes ago, Polar.8634 said: as answer to your statement which is based on whether ANET can do something, not will. lol You have a serious problem with reading comprehension. I recommend you reread what I posted carefully and not take things out of context. 1 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polar.8634 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 1 minute ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: You have a serious problem with reading comprehension. I recommend you reread what I posted carefully and not take things out of context. you sure this is the case? Maybe someone just enjoys getting in the argument, gets emotional and starts to type nonsence instead? 1 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mor The Thief.9135 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 Some people say it's fine that Anet is removing the 6th stat bonus from Runes and putting it into Relics while many (including myself) are not happy with it. Let me say this: if Anet would have just removed the 6th stat bonus entirely instead of transferring it to a Relic and not release Relics in the first place, you can be kitten sure that no one would be as upset about it as that would be a direct nerf (you could say) for the sake of balance, instead of nerfing for the sake of selling "new" artificial progress. Sure people would be upset that they got nerfed, but they won't be as upset that they got nerfed only to need to "unnerf" by re-farming whatever they had before said nerf. Instead I would rather Relics to be a whole new thing IN ADDITION to the current state of Runes. Maybe it will be a powercreep, but at least no one would be "nerfed" just for the sake of new stuff that just has what people had before it was even released. 3 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pifil.5193 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 1 minute ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: I doubt it. Showstoppers are problems that cause the core mechanics of the content to fail or the game itself to fail. Problems with pricing on certain equipment aren't showstoppers. Effects being shifted off of Runes to Relics and making a tiny portion of the player base disgruntled aren't showstoppers. If Relics cost too much then likely they'll be toned down just like Skyscales were initially in the weeks after release. If Legendary Rune owners need more compensation then maybe they'll send additional Relic boxes to those people. Eh, you may not consider it a showstopper but due to the negative feedback being received the entire system could be being reworked right now for all you know. Again they redesigned Unidentified Gear based on feedback in less than two months before launch. They may be reworking recipes as we speak as they have proven very reluctant to change recipes after they hit the live game. That will irritate all the people who've already crafted it using the "old" recipe. If it launches with a particular recipe it's far more likely that they do nothing and wait for the market to sort itself out. It may take a year or two but it usually does. Note that they didn't tone down the cost of Skyscales, only the time gates. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 1 minute ago, Pifil.5193 said: Eh, you may not consider it a showstopper but due to the negative feedback being received the entire system could be being reworked right now for all you know. Again they redesigned Unidentified Gear based on feedback in less than two months before launch. Showstopper is an actual industry term with a specific definition, not something I just came up with. I highly doubt they are making changes on this at this close to release. They might tweak things like giving legendary rune owners additional relic boxes as compensation, but they're not going to be changing fundamental decisions like reverting their decision on shifting effects to relics. 1 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 12 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: but they're not going to be changing fundamental decisions like reverting their decision on shifting effects to relics. "Reverting their decision on shifting effects to relics" is not really what people expect here though, it's about the proper treatment of players who spent 2k+ gold on runes just to have their functionality cut from them. 2 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 Just now, Sobx.1758 said: "Reverting their decision on shifting effects to relics" is not really what people expect here though, it's about the proper treatment of players who spent 2k+ gold on runes just to have their functionality cut from them. That's why I said they might tweak things like giving additional relic boxes to those players. 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 (edited) 1 minute ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: That's why I said they might tweak things like giving additional relic boxes to those players. Cool, in your previous post you seem to be arguing against something people don't really want in this thread though, which is specifically what I've quoted and commented on. Potentially slapping 3 boxes -or so- of relics is pretty obviously not a "proper treatment" of those people either. Edited July 3, 2023 by Sobx.1758 7 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyHawk.5319 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 On 6/27/2023 at 4:06 PM, Falson.5284 said: They aren't being literal. They're saying the Quality of Life of the legendary run was the ability to change the 6th rune bonus easily and at will. That functionality is now lost, and essentially you will have to go back to purchasing multiple copies of the new item, relics, to change what used to be the 6th slot bonus. This is a bad thing On 6/27/2023 at 4:08 PM, Essence Snow.3194 said: Exactly! Exactly! Purchasing or grinding (again) for them if they are account bound. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geralt.7519 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 3 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: That's why I said they might tweak things like giving additional relic boxes to those players. That's nowhere near a decent compensation for losing the QoL of a legendary, I would find it insulting even. I hope they come up with something better than that, 2 months is enough time IMO. 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pifil.5193 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 Just now, DeathPanel.8362 said: Showstopper is an actual industry term with a specific definition, not something I just came up with. I highly doubt they are making changes on this at this close to release. They might tweak things like giving legendary rune owners additional relic boxes as compensation, but they're not going to be changing fundamental decisions like reverting their decision on shifting effects to relics. It's pretty clear what the term means although we've usually used the term blocker in the companies I've worked in. What constitutes a showstopper or blocker varies hugely from company to company and project to project and as you probably know the cheapest time to fix a defect or other flaw is in design, after that it's in development and once it gets out into the wild it tends to be a lot more expensive both in terms of engineering cost and customer goodwill. One would hope that they're not currently planning on coding this expansion right up to 11:59 on the 21st of August and will have scheduled time to address issues and feedback now as it will save them a lot of grief in the future. At least from my own experience it will but then I've been working on agile projects for the last 20+ years or so so making (hopefully) minor changes a couple of months from release to address feedback or shifting customer priorities is nothing new to me. From Rubi's post they appear to be working on something anyway we'll have to see what that is and whether or not it requires changes now or additions in the future or is just a few more boxes of relics. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaeb.2837 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 How is this going to impact the many rune sets that provide +50% duration? Balthazar, Tormenting, Firebrand ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polar.8634 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 21 minutes ago, Gaeb.2837 said: How is this going to impact the many rune sets that provide +50% duration? Balthazar, Tormenting, Firebrand ... having 1 single relic to grant 50% duration would be op. maybe they keep only sixth rune bonus duration, and replace bonus in runes 1-5 with concentration, since they said there will be only stats in runes now. idk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 42 minutes ago, Pifil.5193 said: It's pretty clear what the term means although we've usually used the term blocker in the companies I've worked in. What constitutes a showstopper or blocker varies hugely from company to company and project to project and as you probably know the cheapest time to fix a defect or other flaw is in design, after that it's in development and once it gets out into the wild it tends to be a lot more expensive both in terms of engineering cost and customer goodwill. One would hope that they're not currently planning on coding this expansion right up to 11:59 on the 21st of August and will have scheduled time to address issues and feedback now as it will save them a lot of grief in the future. At least from my own experience it will but then I've been working on agile projects for the last 20+ years or so so making (hopefully) minor changes a couple of months from release to address feedback or shifting customer priorities is nothing new to me. From Rubi's post they appear to be working on something anyway we'll have to see what that is and whether or not it requires changes now or additions in the future or is just a few more boxes of relics. Whatever variation of the definition you want to use none of those include "few people might be disgruntled" because we made the changes. If that was the case then every single balance patch where Nerfs happened would be showstoppers. 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 1 minute ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: Whatever variation of the definition you want to use none of those include "few people might be disgruntled" because we made the changes. If that was the case then every single balance patch where Nerfs happened would be showstoppers. Stop trying to dilute a specific complaint into a general "if they'd care about any player being disguntled..." again. This is not about "any player being disgruntled", I'm not sure there's a reason not to respond specifically according to what this thread is about other than maybe because turning specifics into this generalisation makes it easier for you to automatically dismiss anything that was said in this thread. 8 1 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said: Stop trying to dilute a specific complaint into a general "if they'd care about any player being disguntled..." again. This is not about "any player being disgruntled", I'm not sure there's a reason not to respond specifically according to what this thread is about other than maybe because turning specifics into this generalisation makes it easier for you to automatically dismiss anything that was said in this thread. Not what was being discussed. You were trying to dilute the term "showstopper" to make it sound like it can be totally subjective when it really isn't. The bottom line, what's being discussed here aren't showstoppers and I've explained exactly why that is in my earlier posts. 1 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 5 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said: Stop trying to dilute a specific complaint into a general "if they'd care about any player being disguntled..." again. This is not about "any player being disgruntled", I'm not sure there's a reason not to respond specifically according to what this thread is about other than maybe because turning specifics into this generalisation makes it easier for you to automatically dismiss anything that was said in this thread. Particularly as ANet has made it clear that they recognize the issue is of sufficient concern to enough players to warrant being addressed. Based on past behavior they are 1) able to make changes within the time frame available, and 2) not inclined to address feedback that they consider to be just a few disgruntled players. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: Not what was being discussed. You were trying to dilute the term "showstopper" to make it sound like it can be totally subjective when it really isn't. Where did I do that? Because I'm pretty sure I didn't do it anywhere in this thread, maybe you're confusing me with someone else. 8 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: The bottom line, what's being discussed here aren't showstoppers and I've explained exactly why that is in my earlier posts. It doesn't matter what exactly anyone thinks the "showstoppers" are, because pre-release changes happen regardless of them being "showstoppers" or not. That's not the point here anyways, the point is this specific change and the expected solution to the issue of legendary gear that's directly bound to it, which you misrepresent on multiple occasions by saying people want to revert it completely or now that it won't be changed because they can't possibly address every complaint anyone raises (or because it doesn't fit your definition of what's worth changing). None of that is relevant to this thread, nobody wants "every complaint addressed" here the same way people didn't really expect the devs to somehow scrap the whole relic concept. Stop purposefully diluting specifics into generalizations that don't match the posts or thread you're responding to. 4 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said: Particularly as ANet has made it clear that they recognize the issue is of sufficient concern to enough players to warrant being addressed. Based on past behavior they are 1) able to make changes within the time frame available, and 2) not inclined to address feedback that they consider to be just a few disgruntled players. Yup, agreed. I mentioned that on the previous page in my initial response to him, but he didn't even adress it in his response anyways. Edited July 3, 2023 by Sobx.1758 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 Just now, Ashen.2907 said: Particularly as ANet has made it clear that they recognize the issue is of sufficient concern to enough players to warrant being addressed. Based on past behavior they are 1) able to make changes within the time frame available, and 2) not inclined to address feedback that they consider to be just a few disgruntled players. Consider what percentage of players have all legendary runes, then consider what percentage of that percentage is unhappy with the changes and compensation, then consider what percentage of that percentage of that percentage is willing to quit over the changes and you'll find out exactly how it's not an issue for ANET to prioritize addressing this issue in the time frame remaining, particularly since there are far more possible issues which affect a far bigger portion of the player base that need to be addressed. 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polar.8634 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said: not inclined to address feedback that they consider to be just a few disgruntled players. maybe they communicated us now to give lege owners 3 boxes of relic at expac launch. or if owner has only like 3-4 lege it will be enough for them to give 1 box instead Edited July 3, 2023 by Polar.8634 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 Just now, Sobx.1758 said: It doesn't matter what exactly anyone thinks the "showstoppers" are, because pre-release changes happen regardless of them being "showstoppers" or not. I already said previously that tweaks might happen but no changes to the fundamental design happen this late. So what are you arguing here? 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: Consider what percentage of players have all legendary runes, then consider what percentage of that percentage is unhappy with the changes and compensation, then consider what percentage of that percentage of that percentage is willing to quit over the changes and you'll find out exactly how it's not an issue for ANET to prioritize addressing this issue in the time frame remaining, particularly since there are far more possible issues which affect a far bigger portion of the player base that need to be addressed. By, "consider what percentage," do you mean pull out of thin air? We don't have that information. We do have ANet's response though. We also have ANet's long standing pattern of not responding or acting if the matter does not have the potential to be a problem of significant scope and feedback of a scale to merit change. I am not saying that this is a large enough problem to merit change.....but ANet is. Edited July 3, 2023 by Ashen.2907 5 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: I already said previously that tweaks might happen but no changes to the fundamental design happen this late. So what are you arguing here? What's a "change to the fundamental design" that can't happen here are you talking about (in the context of what people actually expect in this thread and not some "revert the whole thing" that you mentioned and yet nobody really asked for here)? What do you mean what am I arguing here? I'm pointing out that you're diluting what people say and turn towards generalizations or literally changing what people want, in order to have an easier time dismissing what is being said in this thread. Was anything in my previous post unclear to you? I can re-explain, but first I need to understand what was unclear there. Edited July 3, 2023 by Sobx.1758 4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 2 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said: What's a "change to the fundamental design" that can't happen here are you talking about (in the context of what people actually expect in this thread and not some "revert the whole thing" that you mentioned and yet nobody really asked for here)? What do you mean what am I arguing here? I'm pointing out that you're diluting what people say and turn towards generalizations or literally changing what people want in order to have an easier time dismissing what is being said in this thread. Was anything in my previous post unclear to you? I can re-explain, but first I need to understand what was unclear there. I made myself clear already. Near release I don't expect ANET to make any large adjustments, maybe small tweaks, unless showstoppers are found. What part of this do you find objectionable? 1 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 1 hour ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: I made myself clear already. Near release I don't expect ANET to make any large adjustments, maybe small tweaks, unless showstoppers are found. What part of this do you find objectionable? Well making a legendary relic and give it to people who own 6-7 legendary runes for free, anyone even after release get it for free aswell is not a large change. 6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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