Will Relics invalidate legendary runes? [Merged]

[Tuna Bandit.3786]

Any complaint is a valid complaint. 

I asume there are way more legendary rune users out there that do it for the exact same reason as why these runes were introduced: Never have to buy/grind/craft an armor upgrade ever again. 

That is how runes were sold to us, that is why we made them. It is the SOLE reason to make legendary runes. Adding a relic after removing the 6th bonus from the rune, completely destroys that functionality

Legendary runes have no effects, no visual representation. Nobody knows by looking at my character that I even own 1, let along a full set. Nobody crafts them to flash. Litterly EVERYONE that crafts those does it therefor for functionality only. That is now being altered.

You can talk so much about percentages of users not happy about the change or not, fact is, the original idea that sold these legendary runes to us, and the time/gold we invested in those to get a full set, should NEVER be devaluated. 

Go back to read Ruby's reply. And also consider these kind of oversights in the past. I am reasonably confident ArenaNet will come with an elegant solution to let us keep what we earned: Not having to craft armor upgrades ever again.

Ow and those "this does not affect me, I don't have legendary runes" A few examples:

- Superior Rune of Exuberance, listed at about 40 gold a set of 6 currently - will likely be mere copper after Relics (example as one of the most expensive ones)
- Superior Rune excluseively tied to dungeons - how many grinded for some of those? Superior Rune of the Nightmare for example is very popular in condi builds. The Base Stats can be found on easy and cheap to get other Runes. So grinding for those will be devaluated as well.

We are purely focussing on Legendary Runes obviously, because the sheer time and gold investment in those are massive. But we all loose functionality, and therefor value.

They could simply (as an elegant solution) introduce a legendary relic. Hand 1 to those that have a full set of Legendary Runes. 
Then ad it as reward for those still going to craft a set of legendary runes - Congratulations, you completed a full set of Legendary Runes, go to NPC X to claim your Legendary Relic (Heck tie a little fun mini achievo to it with lore, I sure will do it) - this way the material cost/recipies of legendary runes does not need to be modified to reflect the lower value. 

In above example idea, ArenaNet only needs to determine if a set is 6 or 7.

 

Just my thoughts

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Tuna Bandit.3786

[troy.3257]

On 6/28/2023 at 7:24 PM, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Hey all, I want to give you a quick response on this since it's of interest to so many of you! We're working on some more in-depth information to share with you, but in the meantime I can let you know that we are aware of your concerns that the Relics mechanic devalues Legendary Runes. We want to make sure we address those concerns, and we're finalizing a plan to compensate those of you who spent time and energy acquiring those Legendary Runes.

We'll be back with more details soon--thank you all for your feedback on Secrets of the Obscure and your excitement for Tuesday's announcement!

And you never realized this would be a problem until people starting bitching about it?  Are yall stoned or just stupid?

Edited July 3, 2023 by troy.3257

[Gibson.4036]

On 7/2/2023 at 1:35 PM, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Literally every single major balancing update in every single MMO every made has resulted in some players having to redo hours of gameplay to re-gear toward the new meta.  It's unavoidable and part of the nature of MMOs.

No one is expecting everyone to be happy.  The point is you can't expect every major balancing change to please everyone.  That's literally impossible.

Typically, a balance patch doesn’t require you to re-gear every single build on every single character.

[babana.7521]

This is very simple, I want what I have already worked for.  

EDIT

This is also a trust issue, I've pre-purchase every single expansion, including the base game, and also Guild Wars all of those pre purchased, this is the only time I feel betrayed, if you want to break that trust. fine by me. guess who is not pre purchasing next time.

Edited July 4, 2023 by babana.7521

[Ashen.2907]

46 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Typically, a balance patch doesn’t require you to re-gear every single build on every single character.

And if it does, a player who has put in the time to fully gear with legendaries is not impacted.

[Geralt.7519]

6 hours ago, babana.7521 said:

This is also a trust issue, I've pre-purchase every single expansion, including the base game, and also Guild Wars all of those pre purchased, this is the only time I feel betrayed, if you want to break that trust. fine by me. guess who is not pre purchasing next time.

It is mainly a trust issue.

Legendaries are some of the most expensive items in the game, not only in terms of gold but also time and effort. They're the biggest long-term goal there is to keep players engaged, it only works if players have complete trust in not having to grind new gear ever again when you make them, otherwise there's no point in doing it.

There's also the principle on which GW2 was founded, that is horizontal gear progression, no gear treadmill, that's one of the biggest selling point of this game and it applies to everyone, not only those who have legendaries, they broke it already in EoD with the jade bot core and they're doing it again with the relic slot.

While consolidating runes might not be a bad idea per se, the jade core had no reason whatsoever to exist, if not forcing people to buy EoD to get back what they already had (the survivability that had been nerfed across the board to account for it).

Trust is already eroded a bit, but so far they never did anything so wild as to devalue a legendary, the solution they'll come up with can make or break players trust in both legendaries and Anet being capable of staying true to GW2 core values.

I'm waiting to see what Anet solution to this issue is before I decide if it's worth buying the new xpac or not.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Geralt.7519

[Mungrul.9358]

The jade bot was already dangerously close to pay-to-win and removing the horizontal levelling progression of GW2, but if relics arrive and owners of legendary runesets don't get feature parity directly comparable to what they already have, ANet will have broken the core contract between them and the player: the idea that you can put the game down after reaching top level, then come back after a few expansions and still be top level.

As pointed out above, the only reason to craft legendary runes and sigils is so that you'll never have to bother with them ever again and have complete freedom to choose your bonus as and when you want.

Do not use words like "Compensation" when talking about this.

"Compensation" implies removal of something someone has worked for.

"Compensation" is offered to people who may have lost limbs or loved ones.

People who are "Compensated" lose access to something in return for cash. And critically, they've still, involuntarily, lost access to something they are entitled to.

Anything less than a legendary relic and legendary runeset for owners of existing runesets is simply unacceptable.

 

Oh, and if you've designed whole questlines and achievements around relics and their acquisition, more fool you. Go back to the drawing board now, while you still can.

[Geralt.7519]

13 minutes ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

Anything less than a legendary relic

I agree this is the only acceptable solution, the only way to guarantee the same level of QoL a set of leg runes currently has.

 

13 minutes ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

Oh, and if you've designed whole questlines and achievements around relics and their acquisition, more fool you.

Not necessarily, everything they already designed around normal relics is still valid, not everyone is interested in making legendaries.

[Kaenaydar.5631]

12 hours ago, Tuna Bandit.3786 said:

Any complaint is a valid complaint. 

I asume there are way more legendary rune users out there that do it for the exact same reason as why these runes were introduced: Never have to buy/grind/craft an armor upgrade ever again. 

That is how runes were sold to us, that is why we made them. It is the SOLE reason to make legendary runes. Adding a relic after removing the 6th bonus from the rune, completely destroys that functionality

Legendary runes have no effects, no visual representation. Nobody knows by looking at my character that I even own 1, let along a full set. Nobody crafts them to flash. Litterly EVERYONE that crafts those does it therefor for functionality only. That is now being altered.

You can talk so much about percentages of users not happy about the change or not, fact is, the original idea that sold these legendary runes to us, and the time/gold we invested in those to get a full set, should NEVER be devaluated. 

Go back to read Ruby's reply. And also consider these kind of oversights in the past. I am reasonably confident ArenaNet will come with an elegant solution to let us keep what we earned: Not having to craft armor upgrades ever again.

Ow and those "this does not affect me, I don't have legendary runes" A few examples:

- Superior Rune of Exuberance, listed at about 40 gold a set of 6 currently - will likely be mere copper after Relics (example as one of the most expensive ones)
- Superior Rune excluseively tied to dungeons - how many grinded for some of those? Superior Rune of the Nightmare for example is very popular in condi builds. The Base Stats can be found on easy and cheap to get other Runes. So grinding for those will be devaluated as well.

We are purely focussing on Legendary Runes obviously, because the sheer time and gold investment in those are massive. But we all loose functionality, and therefor value.

They could simply (as an elegant solution) introduce a legendary relic. Hand 1 to those that have a full set of Legendary Runes. 
Then ad it as reward for those still going to craft a set of legendary runes - Congratulations, you completed a full set of Legendary Runes, go to NPC X to claim your Legendary Relic (Heck tie a little fun mini achievo to it with lore, I sure will do it) - this way the material cost/recipies of legendary runes does not need to be modified to reflect the lower value. 

In above example idea, ArenaNet only needs to determine if a set is 6 or 7.

 

Just my thoughts

 

Exactly my view on that we put in the work we should reap the reward.

[Elusive.5819]

I don't normally comment on things but I wanted to on this.  I just think, why fix what is not broken?   For me, I think the current rune system works (If I'm wrong, I don't recall ever seeing any complaints or issues about it prior to this pending change) and people have invested heavily for QOL legendary runes (myself included), so to change something now and #%8& off a lot of players, is it really worth it?  Is the change really that necessary?

[Anvar.5673]

17 pages because devs don't want to give a valid answer and consider the option to betray some players instead of just give them a legendary relic is really great for the health of the game.

[idpersona.3810]

3 hours ago, Anvar.5673 said:

17 pages because devs don't want to give a valid answer and consider the option to betray some players instead of just give them a legendary relic is really great for the health of the game.

to be fair, I don't think they foresaw this problem (an issue in and of itself), and so they are likely trying to figure out what a "valid answer" even is.

 

In the meantime, I'm sitting on a pile of mats and gold waiting to hear back on whether or not the runes are worth crafting at this point. They were next on my project list. I guess I'm thankful to know this might be an issue at this point and that I didn't find out a week after crafting the runes.

Edited July 4, 2023 by idpersona.3810

[Echo.3725]

Honestly will stop spending money on the game if this is the hill they want to make a stand on. 

I'm all for change and balancing but this only seems to add more complexity to a system they already struggle to balance.

Runes serve a distinct purpose of being able to alter stats beyond the pre-fix along with providing a bonus if you happen to use the same modifier on all 6 currently equipped armor pieces. This adds a cost to the benefit gained meaning you can't just go randomly throwing stats that are not pre-determined. This creates a finite number of combinations a given bonus has to be balanced against. As it stands this is already a struggle for ANET and based on the past few patches it will likely get worse. 
Separating them causes multiple variations that should be balanced against, as a player, we will experiment and find a way to use something in an unorthodox way...

Legendary rune holders are affected by this disproportionately and should be provided the ability to change the relic at will - even if this means a support ticket every time we do it until legendary relics are added and can replace the functionality. 

Honestly if they wanted to adjust the rune system why not just buff the armor prefix and make the runes solely for the bonus and have it increment per number of runes you had on the armor set? I.E 1 rune - 1/6th of the final effect of the 6/6 set. This would allow for multiple bonus affects with a significantly reduced impact but could provide some weird builds atleast...

Edited July 4, 2023 by Echo.3725

[Peter.3901]

On 6/28/2023 at 8:24 PM, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Hey all, I want to give you a quick response on this since it's of interest to so many of you! We're working on some more in-depth information to share with you, but in the meantime I can let you know that we are aware of your concerns that the Relics mechanic devalues Legendary Runes. We want to make sure we address those concerns, and we're finalizing a plan to compensate those of you who spent time and energy acquiring those Legendary Runes.

We'll be back with more details soon--thank you all for your feedback on Secrets of the Obscure and your excitement for Tuesday's announcement!

Giving an legendary relic for those that already worked for this bonus is the only acceptable answer.

[Astralporing.1957]

On 7/2/2023 at 10:35 PM, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Literally every single major balancing update in every single MMO every made has resulted in some players having to redo hours of gameplay to re-gear toward the new meta.

IN GW2, owners of Legendary gear were intentionally immune to this. It was one of the key features of the legendary gear. If this change goes as originally designed however, for the first time players hat own legendary gear will require gear grinding to get to the point they were at before change. This will heavily undermine value of legendaries for the future - because,. if Anet can do that once and get away with it, they will be able do that again in the future. 

The first step that undermines a long standing precedent is always the most dangerous, because once a precedent gets broken, even once, it stops having any value. I'd rather not see the Legendary precedent get broken by Anet, because it will, in reality, invalidate not just runes, but all my legendary gear.

And no, there's no compensation that Anet can give that would make that fine.

[MedievalThings.5417]

16 hours ago, babana.7521 said:

This is very simple, I want what I have already worked for.  

EDIT

This is also a trust issue, I've pre-purchase every single expansion, including the base game, and also Guild Wars all of those pre purchased, this is the only time I feel betrayed, if you want to break that trust. fine by me. guess who is not pre purchasing next time.

Everyone in my house plays; me, the wife, the kids.  We have pre-ordered every expansion, the game at launch, even got Guild Wars so the littlest one could get some Hall of Monuments stuff done.  This expansion we haven't pre-ordered yet.  This relic change is the reason.  You're right, it's completely a trust issue.  Relics take away functionality we spent time/energy and money completing, and it just seems wrong.  Maybe next time, they change how stats on armor or weapons work.  Anet may not stop with the 6th slot bonus.  Maybe they divide stats into primary and secondary, and, only primary stats (like power, condition, healing) can go on the armor slots we have now, and they add underwear, t-shirts and socks as places to put secondary stats (like prec, ferocity, conc, expertise, vitality).  Once again taking away functionality from legendary armor (or weapons) that people have put time/energy and money into.

How they handle this really does and will affect how I choose to spend my extra time and money.  I am hoping they will do right by players and give us equal functionality to what I already spent the time grinding and earned.  Guess we will see how they handle it.

 

[Geralt.7519]

5 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

The first step that undermines a long standing precedent is always the most dangerous, because once a precedent gets broken, even once, it stops having any value. I'd rather not see the Legendary precedent get broken by Anet, because it will, in reality, invalidate not just runes, but all my legendary gear.

Not only yours, but everyone's. It means noone can trust anymore legendaries to be immune to changes, they will not worth anymore the effort it takes to make them.

This time there's a possible solution in giving a legendary relic to all those who have a set of leggy runes, as many said already, it's the only way to guarantee the same level of QoL runes have now.

But it's still sad and worrisome to think what Anet could do next, especially if people don't realize what the changes are in time to bring the matter to the forums, like this time.

[swgs.6195]

Just give Legendary Relic on start for players with Legendary Runes. I don't see a problem here.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Geralt.7519 said:

Not only yours, but everyone's. It means noone can trust anymore legendaries to be immune to changes, they will not worth anymore the effort it takes to make them.

Yes. That's what i meant. In this way, this change will affect not only owners of legendary runes, but also owners of other legendary gear, as well as people that might think in the future about obtaining a legendary. Because if this is not solved in a way that will guarantee legendary rune owners won't need to grind again for something they already had before, no legendary owner in the future will be safe from Anet at some point obsoleting that legendary.

Notice, that it's not so simple as giving legendary relics for owners of a full legendary rune set. People that are still crafting runes will need to be accounted for as well. In truth, the best solution would be to make legendary relic as an achievement reward for crafting 6 legendary runes. Of course this would probably run against Anet's idea of pushing people into new gear grind, but that idea was already incompatible with core tenets of GW2 so it's better to ensure it will remain dead on arrival.

[Infinity.1087]

The fact that they haven't announced a legendary relic on SotO's launch page points to the fact that they weren't planning on releasing one at launch. In other words, they are probably brainstorming on which solution would require the least amount of dev work. I want to give them the benefits of the doubt that this change was genuinely meant for the good of the community by separating the "key passive" from the stats aspect of runes to give players more customization options. 

I'm not sure how messed up the code behind the legendary armory is. However, I don't really see a good alternative short of giving a legendary relic to anyone holding 6+ legendary runes or will craft them in the future in the form of an achievement or something similar. That being said, I'd be okay with them confirming that it will come in the 1st release post launch, with the understanding that creating a new legendary item (even without visuals) might not be as simple as copy pasting a few lines of code from the existing repo.

[Eclipsiste.3251]

2 hours ago, swgs.6195 said:

Just give Legendary Relic on start for players with Legendary Runes. I don't see a problem here.

If Anet wanted to do just that they could have answered us 16 pages ago...

Edited July 5, 2023 by Eclipsiste.3251

[kiri.1467]

We hear you, but we don't care.

[Kranlor Greyhelm.8417]

15 hours ago, Peter.3901 said:

Giving an legendary relic for those that already worked for this bonus is the only acceptable answer.

It isn't the only acceptable answer, and if they didn't realise they'd need to do it for the expansion, it may not be technically possible in the timeframe.

As an alternative, they could give access to a new vendor providing ALL relics at no cost to anyone that has 6/7 legendary runes. Anyone that doesn't have them would be able to see/buy anything. Not as elegant as a legendary relic, but it might be an option to bridge the gap to when a legendary relic is ready.

[idpersona.3810]

9 hours ago, Kranlor Greyhelm.8417 said:

It isn't the only acceptable answer, and if they didn't realise they'd need to do it for the expansion, it may not be technically possible in the timeframe.

As an alternative, they could give access to a new vendor providing ALL relics at no cost to anyone that has 6/7 legendary runes. Anyone that doesn't have them would be able to see/buy anything. Not as elegant as a legendary relic, but it might be an option to bridge the gap to when a legendary relic is ready.

I guess we'll see what they come up with. I don't think there's a legendary relic ready to go (since this is ongoing and they haven't said and yet). Endorsing  previous ideas, even if they just announced it would be coming out in the next update, I think that would be better than some other possible options. 

I'd really love an update sometime soon, so we can stop speculating and maybe move passed this and be more hopeful/excited for the expansion. The longer this silence goes on though, the harder it is to maintain any shred of optimism. 

Edited July 5, 2023 by idpersona.3810

[Geralt.7519]

7 hours ago, Infinity.1087 said:

I want to give them the benefits of the doubt that this change was genuinely meant for the good of the community by separating the "key passive" from the stats aspect of runes to give players more customization options.

If this was an isolated case I would have no doubt it was meant for the good of the players, but it's the 2nd xpac in a row they're adding a new piece of equipment, in EoD it was the jade bot core that had no reason to exist outside of forcing people to buy the new xpac.

What if they wanted to give players something mandatory to grind in new content, and instead of choosing something totally out of place like the jade core they chose something that could indeed be in need of a rework like the runes? How many other items there are in the game that could do with a rework? Do we have to expect new gear pieces at every new xpac to "solve" bloating issues?

If that's the case, a whole new can of worms would open, that is nullifying the biggest selling point of this game that is no gear treadmill.

In any case, it's baffling to see noone - in the entire development cycle of this new xpac - realized messing with legendaries is a serious problem.

 

28 minutes ago, Kranlor Greyhelm.8417 said:

As an alternative, they could give access to a new vendor providing ALL relics at no cost to anyone that has 6/7 legendary runes. Anyone that doesn't have them would be able to see/buy anything. Not as elegant as a legendary relic, but it might be an option to bridge the gap to when a legendary relic is ready.

That could work as a temporary workaround but ONLY if Anet answer is a legendary relic AND they give a very specific timeframe for which the relic will be implemented, I don't want to see a workaround becoming a solution.

A leg relic as achievement for crafting a set of leg rune would also solve the problem of leg runes becoming worthless to craft after the change since the value is in the set bonus, not the runes themselves.