Will Relics invalidate legendary runes? [Merged]

[DeathPanel.8362]

They are nerfed, not invalidated.

[Serephen.3420]

On 6/30/2023 at 4:58 PM, Dondarrion.2748 said:

I'm telling you... this tiny change, for that miniscule set bonus effect, seriously, people are brewing a kitten storm simply for the sake of it...

Shows how little you know about the game and meta if you think that.

[Linken.6345]

13 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

They are nerfed, not invalidated.

oh shifting the goalpost now are we?

[Serephen.3420]

2 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

oh shifting the goalpost now are we?

They should become a spin writer for a politician at this point.

[DeathPanel.8362]

4 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

oh shifting the goalpost now are we?

What are you talking about?

[Linken.6345]

Just now, DeathPanel.8362 said:

What are you talking about?

Oh Im mixing threads this you in another.

On 6/30/2023 at 9:51 PM, DeathPanel.8362 said:

They absolutely removed and changed stats on runes in the past.  They're simply providing a way to offset that in a different gear slot whereas they didn't in the past.  You're literally better off.

A point of clarification, the game isn't yours.  It's ANET's.  Your analogy is totally incorrect. 

It's like an amusement park.  Nothing in it belongs to you.  You merely paid the ticket for admission.  The owners get to modify, close down, or restrict how people take the rides in this amusement park at their discretion.  They aren't taking anything away from you.  You never had it to begin with.  Your only choice is to pay for the ticket to enter to play or not.

 

They absolutely removed and changed stats on runes in the past.  They're simply providing a way to offset that in a different gear slot whereas they didn't in the past.  You're literally better off.

 

So if it is a nerf as you now stated, how are they better off exactly?

[DeathPanel.8362]

3 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Oh Im mixing threads this you in another.

 

They absolutely removed and changed stats on runes in the past.  They're simply providing a way to offset that in a different gear slot whereas they didn't in the past.  You're literally better off.

 

So if it is a nerf as you now stated, how are they better off exactly?

Reading comprehension is apparently not your strong suit.  

"They absolutely removed and changed stats on runes in the past.  They're simply providing a way to offset that in a different gear slot whereas they didn't in the past.  You're literally better off."

Notice how I said they provided a way to offset that in a different gear slot.  The better-off part is now you can choose the effect separate from runes and are no longer locked into fixed stats.  The Runes are nerfed.  But overall you're better off.   Get it now?

Edited July 2, 2023 by DeathPanel.8362

[Linken.6345]

7 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Reading comprehension is apparently not your strong suit.  

"They absolutely removed and changed stats on runes in the past.  They're simply providing a way to offset that in a different gear slot whereas they didn't in the past.  You're literally better off."

Notice how I said they provided a way to offset that in a different gear slot.  The better-off part is now you can choose the effect separate from runes and are no longer locked into fixed stats.  The Runes are nerfed.  But overall you're better off.   Get it now?

And yes but they could have done it another way that dident destroy anything for anyone like this for example.

 

They could have then made the relic stats override the rune stats to allow the same thing they do now without nerfing the legendary runes.

 

So if you have rune of the lich with vitiality condi duration because you like the jagged horror but equip a power relic.

Your stats would be power main and ferocitiy minor.

[DeathPanel.8362]

Just now, Linken.6345 said:

And yes but they could have done it another way that dident destroy anything for anyone like this for example.

 

They could have then made the relic stats override the rune stats to allow the same thing they do now without nerfing the legendary runes.

 

So if you have rune of the lich with vitiality condi duration because you like the jagged horror but equip a power relic.

Your stats would be power main and ferocitiy minor.

You accused me of shifting the goal post and I've demonstrated I have not.  So are you going to admit you were wrong in your interpretation or are you going to just pretend it didn't happen and deflect totally to a different topic?

[Linken.6345]

33 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

You accused me of shifting the goal post and I've demonstrated I have not.  So are you going to admit you were wrong in your interpretation or are you going to just pretend it didn't happen and deflect totally to a different topic?

I admit you belive you havent shifted the goalpost but it cant be a nerf and also better off change. 

[DeathPanel.8362]

Just now, Linken.6345 said:

I admit you belive you havent shifted the goalpost but it cant be a nerf and also better off change. 

I said the runes were nerfed. But because it's offset by Relics and the relics provide more control you're overall better off.  I've already explained this.  Are you just pretending to not get it so you can keep pretending to be right?

[Ashen.2907]

Separation of sixth stat bonuses from runes and onto relics does not automatically leave one better off. Based on what ANet has said it may leave players significantly worse off initially and perhaps better off once they have acquired the appropriate relic. And, in some cases (my main for example), it will mean being being no better off than before.

I suppose it depends on how many free relics, and how many of each type, are included in that initial dispersement ANet mentioned. If it is one per player then all but one of my characters would be retired upon expac launch. If it is one per build per character if will mean all of my characters remain playable but no experimentation with the system and so it becomes, at best, a complete wash. 

[DeathPanel.8362]

1 minute ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Separation of sixth stat bonuses from runes and onto relics does not automatically leave one better off. Based on what ANet has said it may leave players significantly worse off initially and perhaps better off once they have acquired the appropriate relic. And, in some cases (my main for example), it will mean being being no better off than before.

I suppose it depends on how many free relics, and how many of each type, are included in that initial dispersement ANet mentioned. If it is one per player then all but one of my characters would be retired upon expac launch. If it is one per build per character if will mean all of my characters remain playable but no experimentation with the system and so it becomes, at best, a complete wash. 

When I say "better off" I mean the character's overall power and capability.  There's no scenario where a character is worse off than before because having the same rune set plus the same relic effect achieves the same exact state of capability as before and due to greater flexibility there may be better rune sets that you can use to combine with your desired Relic effect than before meaning you are "better off".

You apparently are factoring in currency costs in the equation.  That's fine but unless Relics are prohibitively expensive it is not an issue.  If it does turn out to be prohibitively expensive then I'll be on your side of the argument because I have 32 characters.  

 

[Linken.6345]

10 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

snip

That's fine but unless Relics are prohibitively expensive it is not an issue.  If it does turn out to be prohibitively expensive then I'll be on your side of the argument because I have 32 characters.  

 

Yes but by the time we find that out you switching side do nothing since it is already to late to change anything.

Nipping it in the bud is better then your wait and see approach.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Linken.6345

[DeathPanel.8362]

Just now, Linken.6345 said:

Yes but by the time we find that out you switching side do nothing since it is already to late to change anything.

Nipping it in the bud is better then your wait and see approach.

Devs operate on data and gameplay feedback.  Not speculation from a handful of players in the forums before the xpac is even launched.

Me shifting sides in an argument has exactly zero effect on ANET's decisions on how to price Relics.  I'm simply a nobody talking in a forum and so are you.

If Relics are prohibitively expensive it will be toned down if enough players give feedback AFTER the release in the same way Skyscale was toned down after mass player feedback.

[Ashen.2907]

26 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

When I say "better off" I mean the character's overall power and capability.  There's no scenario where a character is worse off than before because having the same rune set plus the same relic effect achieves the same exact state of capability as before and due to greater flexibility there may be better rune sets that you can use to combine with your desired Relic effect than before meaning you are "better off".

You apparently are factoring in currency costs in the equation.  That's fine but unless Relics are prohibitively expensive it is not an issue.  If it does turn out to be prohibitively expensive then I'll be on your side of the argument because I have 32 characters.  

 

I am less worried about currency and more about launch day availability. Nearly all of my characters have multiple builds and if we only get one relic per player or one per character then most of my builds will be at a decidedly reduced capability at launch as I doubt that many players will have a significant surplus to sell at that time. 

[DeathPanel.8362]

1 hour ago, Ashen.2907 said:

I am less worried about currency and more about launch day availability. Nearly all of my characters have multiple builds and if we only get one relic per player or one per character then most of my builds will be at a decidedly reduced capability at launch as I doubt that many players will have a significant surplus to sell at that time. 

I expect most players will focus on playing a single playthrough of the story quests with a single character first.  By the time that's done, there should be a sufficient number of relics in the trading system to purchase.  Unless the components to craft a relic is time-gated I don't expect availability to be an issue.

[KawsMeCal.5923]

On 6/30/2023 at 8:14 AM, Ashantara.8731 said:

(I'm going to quote myself from another thread...)

Two things:

1. Everyone will be affected, not just us owners of Legendary Runes. So don't feel overly entitled for a "full compensation".
2. Ask yourself this: If the Relic system had been in place since release, wouldn't you still have acquired 7 Legendary Runes?

I, too, hope that the new system will allow for an equivalent of Legendary Relics, so that we can have our fully customizable functionality back... But I don't feel "betrayed" in any way. It's a change, that's all.

1. Noncrafters hit very small, crafters hit very big.

2. No, probably not - unless they were significantly cheaper to make.

[Ashen.2907]

44 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

I expect most players will focus on playing a single playthrough of the story quests with a single character first.  By the time that's done, there should be a sufficient number of relics in the trading system to purchase.  Unless the components to craft a relic is time-gated I don't expect availability to be an issue.

Fingers are crossed.

[Demalii.9435]

I have 6 legendary runes.. Answering the OP question, this won't necessarily invalidate the QoL for the stats that legendary runes will now give.. However this will immediately invalidate every single build you have, including all of the tabs you may have purchased - for the right to have more build sets on one character. Unless they plan on setting every build we have with the corresponding relic that came from the legendary runes set on each build - every build will have to be updated. Anyone with 72 characters, enjoy your chores 😉

[Pifil.5193]

5 hours ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Devs operate on data and gameplay feedback.  Not speculation from a handful of players in the forums before the xpac is even launched.

That's not true. They operate on both. For example, in the past feedback on how the Unidentified gear was to work caused it to change before it ever hit the game. They post balance patch notes weeks in advance specifically to gather feedback. They may not always act on that feedback but that's why they do it.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Pifil.5193

[CRAVE.7416]

I have 5 Gift of Runes I hope they compensate me for the mats I used to craft them, unless of course Ledge runes will still be worth it.

[DeathPanel.8362]

10 hours ago, Pifil.5193 said:

That's not true. They operate on both. For example, in the past feedback on how the Unidentified gear was to work caused it to change before it ever hit the game. They post balance patch notes weeks in advance specifically to gather feedback. They may not always act on that feedback but that's why they do it.

Obvious mechanics problems are not the same as pricing balance.  ANET isn't going to balance the price of Relics based on speculation from a handful of players before the Xpac even releases.  They're probably going to make it a bit higher than the price of runes and then tone it down if it's needed based on feedback.

[idpersona.3810]

Just now, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Obvious mechanics problems are not the same as pricing balance.  ANET isn't going to balance the price of Relics based on speculation from a handful of players before the Xpac even releases.  They're probably going to make it a bit higher than the price of runes and then tone it down if it's needed based on feedback.

And that approach doesn't strike you are short sighted? Changing a system and charging more up front, and then toning it down afterwards? Which would sow even more discontent among the players who rush to engage in said new system? I believe if they did it the way you suggest it would upset even more of the player base. Which would lead to more player dropoff than otherwise.

Either way, this tangent has gone far off the initial idea on whether of not these relics will invalidate work people put in already for the runes they have. Which you have repeatedly defended as perfectly alright.
There is no (or shouldn't be) any defense on the possibility of making players rework hours of time they've already put in. Any solution going forward needs to make sure that isn't the case.

[DeathPanel.8362]

4 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said:

And that approach doesn't strike you are short sighted? Changing a system and charging more up front, and then toning it down afterwards? Which would sow even more discontent among the players who rush to engage in said new system? I believe if they did it the way you suggest it would upset even more of the player base. Which would lead to more player dropoff than otherwise.

You obviously don't understand how the development process works.  When changes are planned,  approved, and announced they're locked in unless there's some showstopper found.  There's a change control process.  You can't just make sudden adjustments near release unless there's a showstopper that must be addressed.  So whatever people say at this point isn't going to impact what they've decided to go with.  

You keep on speaking as if you speak for the "player base".  To be frank the forum population isn't representative and certainly not the most vocal people.  99.999% of the player base is busy playing the game and doesn't actually care what's being discussed here.