So Relics will be vertical progression, power creep and pay to win? [Merged]

[DeathPanel.8362]

Just now, Astralporing.1957 said:

Can you show me anywhere where they explicitly promised that we'll be able to play that future expansion on current characters?

Announcing an expansion and taking pre-orders is an implicit promise of continued service.  How hard is this to understand?

[Astralporing.1957]

Just now, DeathPanel.8362 said:

No, I keep refuting other people's incorrect attempts at framing what a legendary rune is.

Using your own personal definition with no basis in anything except your own personal ideas.

[DeathPanel.8362]

Just now, Astralporing.1957 said:

Using your own personal definition with no basis in anything except your own personal ideas.

Using your strawman definition you mean.  I have already on multiple occasions clarified what my meaning is.  You just can't accept it because it doesn't suit your narrative.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 minute ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Announcing an expansion and taking pre-orders is an implicit promise of continued service.  How hard is this to understand?

This is the exact same situation as with legendaries, where you mentioned that anything except explicit promised does not count. So, in this case, care again to point me to where they said they won't delete any of your characters (wven while allowing you to play that futire expansion on new ones, thus keeping to the explicit promises)?

[DeathPanel.8362]

Just now, Astralporing.1957 said:

This is the exact same situation as with legendaries, where you mentioned that anything except explicit promised does not count. So, in this case, care again to point me to where they said they won't delete any of your characters (wven while allowing you to play that futire expansion on new ones, thus keeping to the explicit promises)?

No, it's not.  Legendary Runes were never an implicit promise of never having to spend currency on another gear slot.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 minute ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Using your strawman definition you mean.  I have already on multiple occasions clarified what my meaning is.

And i (and many other players) have on many occasion clarified that we're sure you are completely wrong on that.

[DeathPanel.8362]

Just now, Astralporing.1957 said:

And i (and many other players) have on many occasion clarified that we're sure you are completely wrong on that.

No matter how many times you win a debate against your own strawman it doesn't change the reality of the situation. 

ANET never explicitly or implicitly promised that Legendary runes gave you immunity from the potential costs of other gear slots in the future.

[Astralporing.1957]

38 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

No matter how many times you win a debate against your own strawman it doesn't change the reality of the situation. 

ANET never explicitly or implicitly promised that Legendary runes gave you immunity from the potential costs of other gear slots in the future.

But they did implicitly promise there won't be gear grind in this game. Or rather that the gear grind will be horizontal only, tied to build changes - and that legendaries will protect from that kind of grind. Relics break this implicit promise.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Astralporing.1957

[vares.8457]

3 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

But they did implicitly promise there won't be gear grind in this game. Or rather that the gear grind will be horizontal only, tied to build changes - and that legendaries will protect from that kind of grind. Relics break this implicit promise.

So what? You’ll get over it, no need to cry for days about it. Go touch some grass, it’s summer and the weather is great. Don’t waste your time arguing over a video game. 

[DeathPanel.8362]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

But they did implicitly promise there won't be gear grind in this game. Or rather that the gear grind will be horizontal only, tied to build changes - and that legendaries will protect from that kind of grind. Relics break this implicit promise.

Nowhere have they promised gear grind will be horizontal only.  Feel free to cite it and I'll correct myself.

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Nowhere have they promised gear grind will be horizontal only.  Feel free to cite it and I'll correct myself.

Look from here to 18.20.

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Linken.6345

[Healix.5819]

59 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Look from here to 18.20.

He basically just says legendaries will always always be the best and the level cap won't change.

[DeathPanel.8362]

7 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

Look from here to 18.20.

Nothing said here contradicted what I said.  All he did was promise not to raise the level cap and said legendaries would be best for the gear slot.

Relics are not runes.

This again shows what I said many times to be true.  Regardless of what people like you were told you translate it in your mind into what you want to hear and then you hold ANET to those headcanon promises rather than what was actually promised and get disgruntled when it doesn't materialize.

[Linken.6345]

27 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Nothing said here contradicted what I said.  All he did was promise not to raise the level cap and said legendaries would be best for the gear slot.

Relics are not runes.

This again shows what I said many times to be true.  Regardless of what people like you were told you translate it in your mind into what you want to hear and then you hold ANET to those headcanon promises rather than what was actually promised and get disgruntled when it doesn't materialize.

And that is not horizontal progression how?

[Thorne.9857]

2 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

And that is not horizontal progression how?

Because the theatre of the mind suggests otherwise, apparently. Apparently, mocking the gear treadmill as a cheap and lazy solution was just rhetoric, too.

"Your existing investment in your gear... I will commit to you, your max level characters with your top-tier gear today will still be your max level characters with your top-tier gear tomorrow" must have actually meant "Your existing investment and top-tier gear today might be the same tomorrow, unless it's not convenient for us."

To be clear, I'm not arguing that Anet is trying to pull some nonsense or that they lied, I'm saying that one must believe Anet lied, was mistaken, or at least changed their mind to accept the premise that this commitment wouldn't apply to the current situation with Runes and Relics.

[DeathPanel.8362]

3 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

And that is not horizontal progression how?

Nowhere did ANET promise there would only be horizontal progression. 

[DeathPanel.8362]

37 minutes ago, Thorne.9857 said:

Because the theatre of the mind suggests otherwise, apparently. Apparently, mocking the gear treadmill as a cheap and lazy solution was just rhetoric, too.

"Your existing investment in your gear... I will commit to you, your max level characters with your top-tier gear today will still be your max level characters with your top-tier gear tomorrow" must have actually meant "Your existing investment and top-tier gear today might be the same tomorrow, unless it's not convenient for us."

The context of that statement was in talking about gear tiers like ascended and legendary and level cap of 80.  That's not an implicit or explicit promise that they'll never implement new gear slots.  Your level 80 ascended gear or legendary gear will still be the best in slot in stats after the expansion releases.

[Astralporing.1957]

9 hours ago, Healix.5819 said:

He basically just says legendaries will always always be the best and the level cap won't change.

The difference between explicit and implicit promises, yo.

Again, if we hold Anet up to only explicit promises and think that everything else is fine, then they can go and delete your character for no reason whatsoever tomorrow, and you will have to like it and not complain. Because they never explicitly promised they won't do that.

Or, to make an example more in line with what is happening, they may remove all the minor stats on the items and move them to separate, completely new slots leaving items with only major stats, and then claim  you did not lose anything because you can still change what remained. And you can go grind all those new gear happy in realization that you haven't lost anything and that there's no gear grind progression in this game. Because, you know, they never explicitly promised not to do this either.

Now, as I (and many others) see it, it still would be breaking that promise MO once made. Because, unlike you, I do expect Anet to not go and kitten me over using some word loopholes. And since you seem to thonk that implicit promises do not count, i will now expect Anet to make far more explicit promises than before. because apparently i just can't trust them to not be kittens without those.

[Echo.3725]

4 hours ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

The context of that statement was in talking about gear tiers like ascended and legendary and level cap of 80.  That's not an implicit or explicit promise that they'll never implement new gear slots.  Your level 80 ascended gear or legendary gear will still be the best in slot in stats after the expansion releases.

This is why that logic is flawed:
 

Quote

the sixth tier of each rune set will instead complete the stat bonuses associated with that rune set, and the additional special effects or conditional bonuses will be removed entirely.

Quote

Many of the relics that are available to players regardless of expansion ownership will cover the functionality of popular sixth-tier rune bonuses.

Quote

For example, the Relic of the Trooper’s effect is identical to the previous sixth-tier Trooper rune effect: “Remove a condition from each affected ally after using a shout skill.”

So net gain is what for those who currently use Rune of the Trooper?

Will they have to now have Rune of the Trooper and Relic of the Trooper to do what Rune of the Trooper currently does?
Or can we just keep using Rune of the Trooper and it will still be BiS for this stat and effect combo?

Edited July 16, 2023 by Echo.3725

[DeathPanel.8362]

5 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

The difference between explicit and implicit promises, yo.

There's no implicit promise there either.  Promising ascended and legendaries will be the highest tier of equipment and the level cap will remain at 80 does not imply that no new gear slots will be created.

The problem with people like you is you mentally translate whatever you hear into whatever you want to hear and then get disappointed when your headcanon doesn't become reality.

[DeathPanel.8362]

57 minutes ago, Echo.3725 said:

So net gain is what for those who currently use Rune of the Trooper?

Will they have to now have Rune of the Trooper and Relic of the Trooper to do what Rune of the Trooper currently does?
Or can we just keep using Rune of the Trooper and it will still be BiS for this stat and effect combo?

The context of the discussion was about legendary runes.  It doesn't matter what the best rune is after the release because legendary rune users will still be able to customize it at will.

Depending on what the new meta is non-legendary rune users might have to get new runes.

[Axelteas.7192]

On 6/29/2023 at 1:40 AM, Khisanth.2948 said:

veritical progression - yes since they are nerfing characters and you have to get something to bring it back to current level

power creep - maybe depends on whether they nerf, buff or do nothing with the effects being moved into relics

Yes. Only thing missing is that the 6th piece effect of runes is going be some more stat that is supposed to align the the rest of the stats on the rune.

So people who dont have the last expansion will be in disadvantage. Clearly is a pay to win.

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, Axelteas.7192 said:

So people who dont have the last expansion will be in disadvantage. Clearly is a pay to win.

How?

Since you can get the current tier 6 rune bonus on relics just like the people that buy the expansion bud.

There is no p2w

[Axelteas.7192]

27 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

How?

Since you can get the current tier 6 rune bonus on relics just like the people that buy the expansion bud.

There is no p2w

I though core players wouldnt have access to the relics system....  Like core players cannot equip jade cores

Edited July 16, 2023 by Axelteas.7192

[Khisanth.2948]

14 minutes ago, Axelteas.7192 said:

I though core players wouldnt have access to the relics system....  Like core players cannot equip jade cores

"Starting on August 22, everyone’s build will include a relic slot that becomes usable at level 60. " first sentence in the paragraph