DeathPanel.8362 Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said: Actually, no, there was no such equivalent in GW2 history so far. If your knowledge of GW2 history goes back a few days maybe. 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 1 minute ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: If your knowledge of GW2 history goes back a few days maybe. Care then to give me a previous example of balance change that happened to shift stats and effects from an existing gear piece to a completely new one? 5 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 19 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said: Care then to give me a previous example of balance change that happened to shift stats and effects from an existing gear piece to a completely new one? I said "stats and effects are shifted all the time" in nerfs. Now realize you did a translation in your own head and straw manned again. I noticed this is the biggest problem with your arguments. 2 1 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: I said "stats and effects are shifted all the time" in nerfs. Now realize you did a translation in your own head and straw manned again. I noticed this is the biggest problem with your arguments. People keep talking about gear here so you're the one swapping from talking about "gear" into talking about "right about anything that could fit what I want to claim". There's a difference between offloading effects onto "another skill or trait" (because that's probably what you're grasping for here, right?), where you can freely swap between them and having gear effects taken away just to make you purchase ""new gear"" with the same effect. Even moreso when it's on expensive/timeconsuming gear (legendaries) which were meant to address that -frontloading bigger workload in order to prevent the need to keep getting small parts of gear here and there. Edited July 17, 2023 by Sobx.1758 6 2 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 (edited) 11 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said: Oh yes, i have noticed that. It won't be a 1:1 replacement - Thief rune to relic changes clearly show this. They will use this as an excuse to rebalance most of the rune non-stat bonuses, is my guess, with a lot of nerfs incoming. Still, most fo rune costs (and, as i've said, balance changes) will likely move on to Relics in the future, which will make a decision to craft legendary runes way less beneficial than it is currently. And i sincerely doubt they are going to adjust their crafting costs to balance that. No thats not what I mean tho, they are not saying all the rune special bonuses will carry over only the popular ones. Edited July 17, 2023 by Linken.6345 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 8 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said: People keep talking about gear here so you're the one swapping from talking about "gear" into talking about "right about anything that could fit what I want to claim". Nitpicking over differences in subcategories doesn't change the fundamental point. Fried Chicken and Grilled Chicken are still both Chicken. 1 1 8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: Nitpicking over differences in subcategories doesn't change the fundamental point. Fried Chicken and Grilled Chicken are still both Chicken. It's not nitpicking when the differences are meaningful. You're calling it nitpicking because it goes against what you're saying. It's you who stopped addressing gear and went for broader terms in order to then transfer them to more specific case, which isn't the same as what you're now bringing up at all. Edited July 17, 2023 by Sobx.1758 8 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 14 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said: No thats not what I mean tho, they are not saying all the rune special bonuses will carry over only the popular nones. Doesn't really matter. Nobody cares about weak effects, and strong ones will either be "rebalanced" or will just plain not get their Relic version (for example, i'm quite sure Berserker will straight out get axed). Still, it does not affect the rest of what i was saying. 1 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 23 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said: Doesn't really matter. Nobody cares about weak effects, and strong ones will either be "rebalanced" or will just plain not get their Relic version (for example, i'm quite sure Berserker will straight out get axed). Still, it does not affect the rest of what i was saying. It will about the argument people have about but we will get more flexlibility. Good luck with that if none SotO relic bonuses get cut down to for example 5. 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said: It's not nitpicking when the differences are meaningful. You're calling it nitpicking because it goes against what you're saying. It's you who stopped addressing gear and went for broader terms in order to then transfer them to more specific case, which isn't the same as what you're now bringing up at all. You claim the difference is meaningful but you haven't actually demonstrated how or why. 1 1 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: You claim the difference is meaningful but you haven't actually demonstrated how or why. I guess it was added to the post while you were already responding which is why you didn't quote or address it. 4 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said: There's a difference between offloading effects onto "another skill or trait" (because that's probably what you're grasping for here, right?), where you can freely swap between them and having gear effects taken away just to make you purchase ""new gear"" with the same effect. Even moreso when it's on expensive/timeconsuming gear (legendaries) which were meant to address that -frontloading bigger workload in order to prevent the need to keep getting small parts of gear here and there. I wonder what "demonstration of meaningful difference" you're talking about here, if these things being obviously different -like described- is somehow... not a a meaningful difference. Edited July 17, 2023 by Sobx.1758 removed bunch of words which wouldn't be addressed anyway 🤷♂️ 2 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 5 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said: There's a difference between offloading effects onto "another skill or trait" (because that's probably what you're grasping for here, right?), where you can freely swap between them and having gear effects taken away just to make you purchase ""new gear"" with the same effect. Even moreso when it's on expensive/timeconsuming gear (legendaries) which were meant to address that -frontloading bigger workload in order to prevent the need to keep getting small parts of gear here and there. It's not a simple shift. You're now able to mix and match the best possible stat and effect combo for your build. If it were just a simple shift where you had to just buy new gear to get the same exact old results I'd lean more towards your argument, but that's not how things are. 1 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 (edited) 20 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: It's not a simple shift. You're now able to mix and match the best possible stat and effect combo for your build. If it were just a simple shift where you had to just buy new gear to get the same exact old results I'd lean more towards your argument, but that's not how things are. Taking effect from one item and adding it to another is exactly a simple shift. Yes, it does allow to pick them independably, but that doesn't change that it still is a simple shift of effects into a ""new item"" that does what people in this (and the other) thread keep telling you it does to the previous items. But even if you want to have the same exact old results, you can't because you still need to buy the items. btw I like how you asked how it's a meaningful difference, but now you're not even addressing anything about it being meaningfully different than what you were attempting to talk about -you basically dropped it and reverted into "but it lets you mix them!". What is this supposed to be responding to? Edited July 17, 2023 by Sobx.1758 4 3 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 45 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said: Taking effect from one item and adding it to another is exactly a simple shift. Yes, it does allow to pick them independably, but that doesn't change that it still is a simple shift of effects into a ""new item"" that does what people in this (and the other) thread keep telling you it does to the previous items. But even if you want to have the same exact old results, you can't because you still need to buy the items. btw I like how you asked how it's a meaningful difference, but now you're not even addressing anything about it being meaningfully different than what you were attempting to talk about -you basically dropped it and reverted into "but it lets you mix them!". What is this supposed to be responding to? I already addressed it. I pointed out it's not a simple shift because the new relic slot allows for flexibility in builds not seen before. That's different than simply shifting the stats to a different slot and making you pay to get back to where you were. Some if not most builds would not be where they were because they'd use potentially more effective rune/relic combos. Big balance patches in every MMO tend to result in players having to regear some of their equipment. People like you seem to have a problem with that. I recommend a different genre because this is a norm in MMOs and it won't change. 1 1 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: I already addressed it. I pointed out it's not a simple shift because the new relic slot allows for flexibility in builds not seen before. That's different than simply shifting the stats to a different slot and making you pay to get back to where you were. Some if not most builds would not be where they were because they'd use potentially more effective rune/relic combos. Big balance patches in every MMO tend to result in players having to regear some of their equipment. People like you seem to have a problem with that. I recommend a different genre because this is a norm in MMOs and it won't change. Just because it give flexibility dont make it not a simple shift tho. So its exactly like just shifting stats from 1 slot to the new one and then having people regear to hopefuly get back to were they were. Gw2 aint most games, legendaries in this game dont work like any other game and thats why people have a problem with it. Hint this is not a vertical progression game like the ones you seem to be used to were regearing is how new content is made to be tackled. And your speculation that people will be more powerful got no base in reality, Anet can just nerf each effect down to compensate or even reduce our power. Edited July 18, 2023 by Linken.6345 5 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, Linken.6345 said: And your speculation that people will be more powerful got no base in reality, Anet can just nerf each effect down to compensate or even reduce our power. Precisely so. Thief relic example shows clearly they are prepared to do exactly that. And as for flexibility... It will be like current situation of having option of choosing multitude of different stat sets on each gear piece - for the most part all the flexibility of that system achieves is just increasing a number of the trash build options. Edited July 18, 2023 by Astralporing.1957 2 1 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varheroth.6748 Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 (edited) Skip the first part if you like.... I. PART I have played this game since it's beta on and off, for a many years...There have been highs and lows and many great changes and some difficult ones. But overall I liked the direction of your development. Every week you seem to pump out new skins which is your idea of monetizing an amazing game which we get to enjoy without subscription fee...that is providing us new (small and larger) content on a regularly basis! That's amazing! Thank you so much for this! And I understand your need to keep the fashion -> money treadmill going...that's fine by me. II. PART BUT! If you really want to deliver a meaningful and fun way to engage with your new relic system.... for the love of everything you hold dear, make it an additional (6th pc) bonus effect to the existing runes and do NOT make it replace them. Why? - Players will be rewarded and happy to play the new content to improve their builds instead of chasing their old funationality (BORING 😵, DULL 😑, UNFUN 😪) --> everything GW2 has never been and should never be!) - Incredible build diversity opens up! Balance will be non-existing and needs to be adjusted after the weapon changes anyways... I do not know if at this stage you can change this implementation for the relic system to "just" be an addition to existing builds... If not, you will feed us the same dull gameplay loop much inferior games such as WvW etc in terms of fun and creativity have been feeding it's audience forever... What a shame! Please think this over, if you still can! Highest regards, John Edited July 18, 2023 by Varheroth.6748 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 12 hours ago, Linken.6345 said: Just because it give flexibility dont make it not a simple shift tho. It actually does. Because it creates more capability than it had before. 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 53 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said: It actually does. Because it creates more capability than it had before. Still a simple shift though. 1 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 57 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said: Still a simple shift though. So you keep claiming. 1 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redfeather.6401 Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 So much drama over decoupling mechanics. Thank god none of you are game designers. Nothing would ever get done. 6 3 1 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuks.8241 Posted July 19, 2023 Share Posted July 19, 2023 22 hours ago, Redfeather.6401 said: So much drama over decoupling mechanics. Thank god none of you are game designers. Nothing would ever get done. Hehe my thoughts exactly. If we had employees so reluctant of any changes like so many on this forum we would be stuck in the 80s. 6 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathPanel.8362 Posted July 19, 2023 Share Posted July 19, 2023 2 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said: Hehe my thoughts exactly. If we had employees so reluctant of any changes like so many on this forum we would be stuck in the 80s. If I had employees so reluctant of any changes they would no longer be my employees. 5 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drizzly.4562 Posted July 19, 2023 Share Posted July 19, 2023 Go ahead and point out the people opposed to the change itself. 2 5 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 On 7/18/2023 at 2:15 AM, DeathPanel.8362 said: I already addressed it. I pointed out it's not a simple shift because the new relic slot allows for flexibility in builds not seen before. That's different than simply shifting the stats to a different slot and making you pay to get back to where you were. Some if not most builds would not be where they were because they'd use potentially more effective rune/relic combos. Big balance patches in every MMO tend to result in players having to regear some of their equipment. People like you seem to have a problem with that. I recommend a different genre because this is a norm in MMOs and it won't change. You're saying you already addressed it, but then you go on to talk about "it not being a simple shift"? Except what you were supposed to address was your own request for "how or why it is a meaningful difference". If you forgot what it was about, the "meaningful difference" was about you coming up with "skill/traits" example when everyone is talking about gear (runes/relics in particular). This is where it was pointed out you're just trying to apply your own spin on the situation by avoiding talking about specifics: On 7/17/2023 at 7:16 PM, Sobx.1758 said: People keep talking about gear here so you're the one swapping from talking about "gear" into talking about "right about anything that could fit what I want to claim". There's a difference between offloading effects onto "another skill or trait" (because that's probably what you're grasping for here, right?), where you can freely swap between them and having gear effects taken away just to make you purchase ""new gear"" with the same effect. Even moreso when it's on expensive/timeconsuming gear (legendaries) which were meant to address that -frontloading bigger workload in order to prevent the need to keep getting small parts of gear here and there. and 3 responses later you still didn't understand "how or why this is a meaningful difference" despite it being explained to you: On 7/17/2023 at 9:53 PM, DeathPanel.8362 said: You claim the difference is meaningful but you haven't actually demonstrated how or why. Why did you suddenly reverted to typing "this is not a simple shift!"? I don't know, maybe it's me who missed something in those posts, make sure to explain it or go back address these posts accordingly this time. 1 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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