So Relics will be vertical progression, power creep and pay to win? [Merged]

[DeathPanel.8362]

5 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   That's not true: in the past a nerf in a given set of runes would mean that at worst, you'll need to replace it by a new set, and the most expensive ones didn't push beyond 18 golds x piece, which means 108 gold coins for a 6 piece set (126 includig underwater).

   I'm entirely sure that a single Relic won't be as simple to get as paying ~20 goil coins to recover the honest work you already did. If that wpould be the plan, albeit still abyect, Ruby wouldn't have been as vague in their latest "clarification".

   Again: in a game as full of bugs as currently GW2 is, I don't see a reason to implement a 19th gear slot and make all even more spaghetti-codded with the risk that inply UNLESS they plan to cash plenty of money with it.

You're just making baseless assumptions.  As I said unless Relics are prohibitively expensive it's a non-issue.  If it turns out that a relic is 100+ gold then I'll be on your side of the argument.  If it's less than 10 gold then no.

There's a very good reason to implement relic because it allows people to have far more control over their builds.  Previously you're forced to use a rune set that has stats that your build may not need in order to get that 6-slot effect.  With this change, players will have far more control to optimize both the stats they need and the effect. 

[Ynzalez.4081]

1 minute ago, NaconFour.2705 said:

What happens to specialty runes like the Rune of Durability?  Will they get a relic too?  Are all the obscure runes being grandfathered in?

I presume they will only have a subset of the 6th rune effects as Relics.  Others will be added as future content like..I dunno..reset all your slayer achievements and make you gain them again to qualify for a relic.

[Buran.3796]

Just now, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Wrong.  You had to pay plenty of gold and other currency to replace runes that were modified by patches to replace them with others.  The meta was massively shifted by the change to many runes in the past. (ie. Perplexity changes, durability runes when they were introduced, etc)  

   No, I didn't. Perplexity still do wonders in OW for my single celestial Mirage, Balthazar are dirty cheap and had been the best for fire focused builds for ages. Pack, Strength and  Eagle are unexpensive, Nightmare ones comes free with PvP dungeon chest rewards and after the nerfs in Durability and Leadership (which were bought mostly with tokens with no other use, not raw gold) the replacement were quite cheap. The most "expensive" runse which I've bought in the last two years have been Fireworks, and if you put orders that's less than 25 golds for a full set...

[DeathPanel.8362]

Just now, Buran.3796 said:

   No, I didn't. Perplexity still do wonders in OW for my single celestial Mirage, Balthazar are dirty cheap and had been the best for fire focused builds for ages. Pack, Strength and  Eagle are unexpensive, Nightmare ones comes free with PvP dungeon chest rewards and after the nerfs in Durability and Leadership (which were bought mostly with tokens with no other use, not raw gold) the replacement were quite cheap. The most "expensive" runse which I've bought in the last two years have been Fireworks, and if you put orders that's less than 25 golds for a full set...

You just argued against yourself then.  If it's not a problem to replace runes and if relics aren't prohibitively expensive then all of this is a non-issue.

[idpersona.3810]

  

12 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Wrong.  You had to pay plenty of gold and other currency to replace runes that were modified by patches to replace them with others.  The meta was massively shifted by the change to many runes in the past. (ie. Perplexity changes, durability runes when they were introduced, etc)  

Unless relics are made prohibitively expensive which I seriously doubt the bar will be so low that it's a non-issue. 

You seem fairly combative, but assuming you as discussing in good faith, here are my views: "prohibitively expensive" is relative. So it's tough to judge that. It sounded like relics were going to come from various places. So it may not even just be a monetary issue, depending on how they're obtained. We don't know enough yet.

10 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

You literally are paying to offset nerfs from balance patches every time you get new gear or runes or sigils to modify your builds.

On this, having Legendaries negates any future costs (or it's supposed to). So speaking to legendaries specifically, this rune "nerf" could end up being very expensive.

 

5 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

You just argued against yourself then.  If it's not a problem to replace runes and if relics aren't prohibitively expensive then all of this is a non-issue.

Players will likely still have to farm (by whatever means) to regain access to rune abilities they currently have. That situation in and of itself sucks.

[Buran.3796]

3 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

There's a very good reason to implement relic because it allows people to have far more control over their builds.  Previously you're forced to use a rune set that has stats that your build may not need in order to get that 6-slot effect.  With this change, players will have far more control to optimize both the stats they need and the effect. 

   I woulkd like to see examples of those runes which currently have a mix of  stats so unconvenient with a powerfull 6th rune feature that barely are worth of use....   Things as Scholar runes giving you healing power or Monk and Water runes with all those Ferocity stat points wasted...   The reality is that the runes which are mostly used and meta in most game modes (which are a very few ones, as I said) are overall well though and have stats properly selected to the roles that would perform.  

   Again, I don't see why a company which has been trying to homogenize and simplify (and nerf) so much runes and sigils along the years and  didn't rekease a new rune since PoF? would enter in the headache of making a more complex system if is not to make cash from selling solutions for the inconveniences that we will face

   Is like EoD in which they implemented a new set of Masteries which is only unlocked for the characters that complete the story so you have to waste time with alts if you want the abilities that in HoT or PoF are shared across the whole account (by the way, I only did it with my main and entirely ditched my alts from EoD's story mode).

   I see Relics as a way to make the game worse to (in any, undisclosed way) sell us the convenience to restore the "natural order".

[DeathPanel.8362]

9 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said:

You seem fairly combative, but assuming you as discussing in good faith, here are my views: "prohibitively expensive" is relative. So it's tough to judge that. It sounded like relics were going to come from various places. So it may not even just be a monetary issue, depending on how they're obtained. We don't know enough yet.

I've already given my standard earlier.  If it's more than 100 gold per relic it's prohibitively expensive.  If it's less than 10 gold it's trivial.  The point is you're complaining about having to potentially pay gold to offset changes that are nerfing runes and my point is it's not a problem as long as relics are trivial to get.

 

9 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said:

On this, having Legendaries negates any future costs (or it's supposed to). So speaking to legendaries specifically, this rune "nerf" could end up being very expensive.

Negate future costs of runes.  That doesn't mean runes will never be changed ever in the future.

You'll still never pay for runes in the new expansion.

Like I said before, unless relics are prohibitively expensive it's a non-issue.

Edited June 30, 2023 by DeathPanel.8362

[Barraind.7324]

  

35 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Wrong.  You had to pay plenty of gold and other currency to replace runes that were modified by patches to replace them with others. 

Not since 2019 I havent.  I paid gold and time for the "never have to do that again" option. 

[Graymatter.4723]

15 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Like I said before, unless relics are prohibitively expensive it's a non-issue.

Right now, I can create any build in the game with my legendary armor, runes, weapons, and sigils at no cost. I can do that on all of my characters across all of their equipment templates. I worked very hard and invested a huge amount of time into the game to put myself in that position. The only problem slot is the underwater one but that is hardly used and infusions which are annoying. After this change, without a legendary relic, I will need to buy/farm/acquire relics for all of those characters and their builds. If I want to try a new build, I will need to get a relic for that build. I have about 10 characters that I play with regularly. Probably 25 builds in total. That's 25 relics that I would need to acquire without a legendary relic. If I want to try a heal specter, I will need to get a new relic for that build. If I want to spend an afternoon testing various combinations on a target dummy to see which one is best for my play style, I will have to go and get x number of relics where x is the possible combinations.

I can't see how you are missing that this is a massive step down for anyone who has put the time and effort into getting legendary runes.

[idpersona.3810]

15 minutes ago, Graymatter.4723 said:

[snip]

I can't see how you are missing that this is a massive step down for anyone who has put the time and effort into getting legendary runes.

All of this. Personally I have 25 80s with several builds on several of the characters. Jade bots were a huge pain in EoD. Relics (right now) sound worse.

[luigiormario.7305]

1 hour ago, Buran.3796 said:

  I paid 0 gold to re-learn the traits or skills after the changes in each balance patch. Relicswon't even be remotely close to being free.

Oh lucky you. What about all the players who didn't want to spend additional time learning a new class or playstyle once their main got nerfed to oblivion (which incidentally happens alot more frequently now with the more regular balance)? Or the players who need to go around earning all the hero points required for a new strong class because all their existing ones are obselete following a balance patch. None of this counting any costs for those needing gear for such 'new' classes. Granted that relics will affect everyone rather than just certain classes in these scenarios, but will be a one off rather than regular changes disrupting certain playstyles. 

My major issue with your statement isn't that relics won't be free, because they won't, moreso on your assumption that gold or gems are the only investments people can make when something changes. Most players can quite easily earn 20 gold in an hour, but it takes the same average player alot longer to get the same value out of a new class or playstyle. 

[Jianyu.7065]

Everything is a big deal.

[Batalix.2873]

Of all the things to be complaining about, THIS is the hill people want to die on? One more ascended/legendary slot?

Nevermind the gutting of class identity with EoD spec normalisation through balance patches, cross-claas proficiency of a good third of what makes especs unique and preserves build diversity, and the erosion of distinct profession niches by adding thoroughly off-brand weapon choices to core?

Nevermind nailing the coffin of raids with PvE leggy armor, or the dubious obviation of a major PoF feature and selling point with an easier skyscale mastery.

A stupid relic slot? On runes which will still retain a large portion of their value despite replacing comparatively cheap TP purchases, and which at most will require you to craft/buy a single additional slot?

Y'all almost deserve this for being so obliviously single-minded. It's not a great change but runes have been problematic for a long time and there is so much more to be concerned about with this game right now.

[DeathPanel.8362]

2 hours ago, Barraind.7324 said:

  

Not since 2019 I havent.  I paid gold and time for the "never have to do that again" option. 

And you won't have to pay for runes again.  That doesn't mean runes will never be changed.  No promises were made to that effect with legendary runes implementation. 

[DeathPanel.8362]

2 hours ago, Graymatter.4723 said:

Right now, I can create any build in the game with my legendary armor, runes, weapons, and sigils at no cost. I can do that on all of my characters across all of their equipment templates. I worked very hard and invested a huge amount of time into the game to put myself in that position. The only problem slot is the underwater one but that is hardly used and infusions which are annoying. After this change, without a legendary relic, I will need to buy/farm/acquire relics for all of those characters and their builds. If I want to try a new build, I will need to get a relic for that build. I have about 10 characters that I play with regularly. Probably 25 builds in total. That's 25 relics that I would need to acquire without a legendary relic. If I want to try a heal specter, I will need to get a new relic for that build. If I want to spend an afternoon testing various combinations on a target dummy to see which one is best for my play style, I will have to go and get x number of relics where x is the possible combinations.

I can't see how you are missing that this is a massive step down for anyone who has put the time and effort into getting legendary runes.

Are you telling me someone with all slots legendary can't even afford these relics?  If someone like you can't afford it then 99.99% of the players won't be able to.

I have 32 characters and I'm not even worried about this change.  As I said unless it's prohibitive expensive it's a non-issue.  You're just trying to make it an issue for some reason.

The benefits of greater control over builds far outweigh the likely negligible costs.

[Chaoslord.5439]

So your taking away something I already invested my time into earning.  If I want the bonus back I have to craft and/or grind some other part of the game to earn the appropriate relic.  This is really unacceptable and I won't be purchasing the expansion specifically for this reason.  I would rather Anet dropped the whole relic idea at this point.

[idpersona.3810]

1 hour ago, Batalix.2873 said:

Nevermind the gutting of class identity with EoD spec normalisation through balance patches, cross-claas proficiency of a good third of what makes especs unique and preserves build diversity, and the erosion of distinct profession niches by adding thoroughly off-brand weapon choices to core?.

This thread isn't about EoD classes or preference niches. Players can be concerned about multiple topics and to varying degrees.

1 hour ago, Batalix.2873 said:

Nevermind nailing the coffin of raids with PvE leggy armor, or the dubious obviation of a major PoF feature and selling point with an easier skyscale mastery.

If raids aren't attracting players on their own (they aren't) then that's on that content and the players who enjoy it. Raids were abandoned long ago by the developers, for lack of engagement.

Skyscale isn't a big deal. Let new players enjoy them without having to work through money gated older content. It could be a lot of fun playing on a map designed with flying mounts in mind.

1 hour ago, Batalix.2873 said:

 stupid relic slot? On runes which will still retain a large portion of their value despite replacing comparatively cheap TP purchases, and which at most will require you to craft/buy a single additional slot?

"Retain a large portion of their value"? They are arguably losing half their overall value. The remaining value of runes (the pure stat buffs) are likely to be the cheaper portion in fact.

1 hour ago, Batalix.2873 said:

Y'all almost deserve this for being so obliviously single-minded. It's not a great change but runes have been problematic for a long time and there is so much more to be concerned about with this game right now.

It's not single minded. There are plenty of threads discussing the various topics and concerns. This thread just so happens to be about runes in particular🙂

[Dante.1508]

I know i'm probably a minority.. But i never found horizontal progression to be all that fun here. Most of the time i just feel handicapped and geriatric due to being a more casual customer than a hardcore grinder..

Gw2 Gear grind is way more painful than any other standard level based MMO i played in my opinion.. The crafting grind is real, the loot drops are anemic in open world pve, the hardcore pvp and raiders get everything hand fed to them.. At least in standard mmos Pve levels and loot were fun to progress for myself.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Dante.1508

[Graymatter.4723]

1 hour ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Are you telling me someone with all slots legendary can't even afford these relics?  If someone like you can't afford it then 99.99% of the players won't be able to.

I have 32 characters and I'm not even worried about this change.  As I said unless it's prohibitive expensive it's a non-issue.  You're just trying to make it an issue for some reason.

The benefits of greater control over builds far outweigh the likely negligible costs.

I bought unlimited gathering tools because I didn't want to have a ton of gathering tools in my bags. For convenience. It's the same thing with the relic. I don't want to keep 50 of each type in my bank, regardless of the cost. But lets look at the cost because that is what you are focusing on. How do you have any idea what they are going to cost and what is involved with getting them? The difference in price between Superior Rune of Infiltration and Superior Rune of the Chronomancer is 2g 32s 73 per rune. They have the same stats. The only difference is the 6 set bonus. That's almost 14g extra people pay for the set bonus. The difference is much higher with other sets. Why do you think relics are going to be cheap and easy to get hold of? When has that ever happened in the game? The trading post whales will buy all of the stock of the good relics if they are cheap because everyone will need them.

So, picking the "best" combo relic a probably going to be 20g - 30g at minimum. Now, if you want to test all of the combinations, you might end up spending 200g-300g.

We have to do this to basically get what we already have. Sure, there is some extra flexibility with the new system, but everyone who has legendary runes is giving up a lot for that flexibility.

[The Boz.2038]

10 hours ago, Sylvyn.4750 said:

Yet nothing was taken away first to add new weapons into the mix...new weapons are new content without old content disappearing.

Weapon functionality absolutely was nerfed before every expac, "to make room for the new weapon".

[The Boz.2038]

6 hours ago, Graymatter.4723 said:

Right now, I can create any build in the game with my legendary armor, runes, weapons, and sigils at no cost. I can do that on all of my characters across all of their equipment templates.

I bet you were real mad when they added jade bots to the game.

[Graymatter.4723]

41 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

I bet you were real mad when they added jade bots to the game.

Why? That didn't take anything away from me. This is a completely different thing. I put a huge amount of effort and time, and spent a ton getting full legendary gear, weapons, runes, and sigils so that I never had to bother with gear again. It opened a ton of options for me. I started raiding, which is something I hadn't done in GW2 before, I started playing on a lot more characters and bought equipment and build templates for those characters. I can outfit a new character and get them ready for raids in 10 minutes. I am happy do put in some time and effort for a legendary relic, but one certainly needs to be available at launch. Otherwise my investment is seriously diminished because I need to go off and organize relics for each character that I have and all of their builds. I need to get a bunch of relics in order to test combinations to see what suits me best, and I need to take up bank space to keep them on hand in case I need to switch builds or create a new character.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Graymatter.4723

[Bakeneko.5826]

16 hours ago, Gop.8713 said:

It's actually not. If they gave you a legendary qol item, that would increase the utility of your current items to correspond with the increased versatility of the current system without your having to do the work for it. You want something for nothing . . .

They are taking huge bonus away from runes (namely set bonus, which is huge as far as upgrade stats go), so, to answer you - no, it is not "for nothing" it's for lost feature of QoL item. Hell, I'd take main component for crafting leggy relic (if that is a thing), so I don't have to farm some stupid time gated item, but, for the love of god, not leggy choice box.

[Bakeneko.5826]

55 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

I bet you were real mad when they added jade bots to the game.

Jade bots didn't take anything away. If relic was something we add on top on existing rune system - sure, I'll spend more time to get it (mats if there is leggy variant), but now we are loosing important part of legendary rune set, which should be compensated accordingly, as we are not loosing 300 gold (price of one rune), but around 2k, since set bonus is lost.

[The Boz.2038]

1 minute ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Jade bots didn't take anything away. If relic was something we add on top on existing rune system - sure, I'll spend more time to get it (mats if there is leggy variant), but now we are loosing important part of legendary rune set, which should be compensated accordingly, as we are not loosing 300 gold (price of one rune), but around 2k, since set bonus is lost.

Wow, this is some exotic creative maths, lol.