Please explain logic in this

[andrewlcl.8176]

16 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

...for all we know players would run glassier to take advantage of burst, that according to you is the only thing that would benefit from a removal of downstate. 

This is possible. Like a bunch of Staff daredevils. 

[Cyninja.2954]

35 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

How would larger grps become uncontestable? All run full minstrel? Some seem to do that already, and it's not very effective, because the lack of counter pressure allows more agressive play and it is still possible to focus down targets if they are bad enough.

Have you seen how a squad with 8 heal vindicators behave?

Squishes (dps) would simply take a tad more toughness or defensive skills (celestial WOULD be a way to do that, yes). Also all resurrection utilities would be replaced with more tank and downstate prevention utilities.

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You seem to assume oneshotting squishies is the only way to generate downs for small grps against much larger numbers, but that's not the case, so having less of those isn't going to make that much of a difference. Aside from this it is just an assumption that everyone out of a sudden runs full tank, for all we know players would run glassier to take advantage of burst, that according to you is the only thing that would benefit from a removal of downstate. Maybe zergs would start to run full cele , and then maybe anet finally realizes that it is indeed not very balanced - and nerfs it. Wouldn be a win-win situation.

Celestial is exactly what is happening at small scale which you are complaining about for large scale. Players are using more tanky stats to get an advantaged over burst roaming builds, which have all but disappeared or dropped significantly in strength, because it all comes down to: who gets downed first (which for small scale or 1v1 is very similar to not having downstate) and celestial is more than enough damage to get the job done.

Players currently builds full burst (or marauder) in squads because running something tankier puts them at a disadvantage against another large group which runs full glass (glass builds which have a "2nd-4th" life thanks to downstate are superior to tankier dps because they have a better alpha).

The same does not apply when facing a smaller group. In effect: due to lack of changing to ideal builds, larger groups often run inferior builds when meeting smaller groups currently. One reason they allow themselves to do that is downstate.

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If never gong down would be as easy as a simple build change - why aren't players doing that already?

They do: in small scale. In large scale, the damage loss is not worth the change because there is downstate.

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Ultimatively we both don't know how it would shift the meta, but i don't think it would actually change that much (and if it does, well just another argument that players laying on the ground, deprived of most of their powers and supposedly close to death, are indeed way too impactful).

How long did it take for the first roaming builds to react to the celestial changes? 1 day? (to be fair, kinda loaded question given there where select cele roaming builds before the change already).

How long did it take for the meta across the mode to change for roaming? 2-3 months?

If downstate was removed, there is a very strong incentive to go tankier for large groups. It gives them free kills against smaller groups  and keeps them on par with other large groups. Getting in a good alpha would become more important, after which the number advantage is easier to uphold. Literally the same we saw in small scale (and you even allude to that yourself by stating players might swap to celestial).

EDIT:

in case this was unclear: my statement that downstate benefits burst is not to be confused with downstate benefits offensive stats (or as you put it glassier). Burst in this case means getting an opponent to 0 life in any means necessary as fast as possible while staying as safe as possible (aka avoiding burst). Burst does not mean overkilling you opponent 10 times over.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Zyreva.1078]

Sounds like getting rid (or rather nerfing) both cele and downstate would be the way to go ...

Edited July 14, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[subversiontwo.7501]

6 hours ago, Nanogrid.7283 said:

1. enemy squad is 20 players
2. my group is 5 players

I can help you by stopping you right there.

You are playing a game and game-mode where the server caps and the map caps are the same for all sides.

What downstate adds in dimension to combat looks entirely different if your perspective is 5v5 or 20v20 instead.

Fighting outnumbered is possible but it is a choice you are making: It isn't supposed to be easy or available to everyone and certainly not something the game is balanced around.

To put some meat on those bones:

The initial game design is balanced around sides being roughly equal in numbers. That may not be the common case in practise but (much like in the recent thread about hidden tags) you don't solve those problems by causing new problems elsewhere. While you struggle with outnumbered fights other groups have struggled with finding content because they have been too powerful even when giving up numerical advantages.

This thread like many other recent threads seem to grapple with the conception that you are not as good as you think you are, when looking at those other players you see yourself better than. Pick a better composition, pick another target, practise more or move from 5 to 10 players if most of your content is 20 or more. Removing downstate will not do what you think it will - it will do more to reward cowards who can't secure kills because they do not expose themselves to sufficient risks than it will make fighting outnumbered easier. If you look at these forums people claim balance but seem more interested in just making it easier to connect with their LB2 or secure kills on their run-away Thieves. So they say balance but have no conception of it. That is beyond what I said above, that making fighting outnumbered easier is not an inherently positive thing even for people who know how to do it, do it and succeed at it.

That's the logic, explained.

Edited July 14, 2023 by subversiontwo.7501

[Cyninja.2954]

Just now, Zyreva.1078 said:

Soundls like getting rid (or rather nerfing) both cele and downstate would be the way to go ...

I'd prefer to improve on the finishing options. Add a build element which good players could make use of.

As to celestial, I think Arenanet completely overloaded that stat set. I get why they did it in PvE and why they assumed this would help WvW. It was a bad change, build wise, in my opinion but I doubt they will go back on it. Maybe if they push the powercreep some more in PvE...

[cyberzombie.7348]

You went 5v20 in a PvP environment. Unless you're constantly hitting-n-running, removing downstate will do little to shift those odds of winning.

[XenesisII.1540]

Boon ball of 5 can take on 20 unorganized randoms, but it's less likely to take on another boon ball comp of 20, which are most likely also running res skills.

They brought rally down to a 1 to 1 basis, only 1 player can rally off 1 defeated, it's time they brought ressing down to a 1 to 1 basis as well, only 1 person can res another, not 5. 🤷‍♂️☕

[TheGrimm.5624]

9 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Boon ball of 5 can take on 20 unorganized randoms, but it's less likely to take on another boon ball comp of 20, which are most likely also running res skills.

They brought rally down to a 1 to 1 basis, only 1 player can rally off 1 defeated, it's time they brought ressing down to a 1 to 1 basis as well, only 1 person can res another, not 5. 🤷‍♂️☕

This I would like to test for a week and is an interesting idea as other twists that have been discussed as well that could make that there is still a form of downstate but one that doesn't favor numbers. When you take just the no downstate discussions a small group do mean they just want it removed. Larger groups that side on no side are actually more looking for it not be as one sided as the no group feels it is. Example, I think you could get the same feel that no downstate grants by even just forcing defeated to have to respawn. What does that do? It removes a defeated player from acting as an active scout while out play, creates a higher risk reward in the decision of an ally to stop fighting and revive a downed before they are defeated and out of play, and handles both defeated from either side of the fight win/lose the same recourse, return to spawn and go from there. 

So that said the idea of also trying a 1 to 1 revive, even if that applies to both downed and defeated, could be interesting and could still tie into other ideas like defeated respawning, lower heath pools, not removing applied condis when first downed and the others that have been discussed versus just a flat out removal of downstate and its play and counter play options.

+1 from me to try.

[TheGrimm.5624]

9 hours ago, Nanogrid.7283 said:

Hi, I'm new to gw2 and I only came for WvW.

Please someone explain to me how is the downstate mechanic a fair one for WvW.

So:

1. enemy squad is 20 players
2. my group is 5 players
3. we manage to downstate one, but can´t finish under pressure of 19 enemy players
4. enemy downstate gets hand rezzed by 19 enemy players
5. enemy 20 player squad manages to downstate one of my 5 man group, they 11111111111111111 until he is dead for good, with zero chance for us to hand rezz him due to pressure
6. downstate mechanic gives game advantage to the group that already had game advantage in the first place because they had way bigger group
7. why? would it not be better to eliminate downstate mechanic from WvW and make it a more interesting experience? I'm confused.

Ball up, boon up, turn off brain, spam 11111111 and go watch sesame street while in WvW.

First off welcome to the Mist War! and Forum Wars 2, the place you can go and make popcorn and be in while at work while you can't be in game. If you get sometime and want to run thru a lot of back and fourth, do a Google search on downstate and/or use the search on the forums and you can get a lot of back story on downstate as it goes round and round. that and since its now Friday, Happy Reset to you and may your bags be full tonight!

[Quirin.1076]

They have done the No Downstate before in WvW in previous events.  I do not suspect they will add it back because recent changes have been to encourage/benifit the Blob / Zerg mechanic.  No Downstate would not benefit the Blobs/Zergs so I do not suspect it would be introduced again, unless for April Fools day.

[XenesisII.1540]

53 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

So that said the idea of also trying a 1 to 1 revive, even if that applies to both downed and defeated, could be interesting and could still tie into other ideas like defeated respawning, lower heath pools, not removing applied condis when first downed and the others that have been discussed versus just a flat out removal of downstate and its play and counter play options.

+1 from me to try.

The 1 to 1 is a better compromise over no down state, because anet also wouldn't need to redo the res skills, which is still usable in pve/pvp, this is where no down state has it's problem. 

As for force respawn after a death, could work too, but those players aren't being revived until after the fight anyways, there are times when the commander dies and yet still command while defeated, you would take away that aspect from it even though 9 out of 10 times that side will eventually lose, overcoming that and getting a come back win is fun and gratifying. Although defensively this helps in forcing zergs to reset to their spawn instead of just ressing everyone at the end of battle and carrying on their conquest deep in enemy territory, but then we get into the whole argument of how defense is too stronk as it is. 😏

Ultimately when thinking about down state we now need to think what's good for the boon blob, because that is who anet is catering to. Down state while good for veterans, isn't so friendly to casuals and newbs and are most likely the ones who don't like it much to begin with, they become feeders to everyone more than they already are, especially when everyone pulls out their rangers to gank from 2k range, or I guess gun flamers will be next meta for it. Do they want to scare off more of those players if it becomes permanent? While it might be an effective tool to use on blobs too, those blobs are farming way more than they're dying to, and you would also get a scenario where these cowards won't face each other and only hunt the weakest pug prey they can find. 🤷‍♂️

No down state is better off as a week event once or twice a year and nothing more. Boon blobs are stronk and anet is not going to do anything about them, not when they also run in them. Thus the entire topic is futile.

🍦☕