The Quickness Herald Rework did not achieve what it set out to do - and how to actually solve it

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, XxsdgxX.8109 said:

The latest obscene buffs to quickness application are still not enough for the revenant PVE "mains" who refuse to legend swap for more energy, something that was always been key to revenant's smooth and active gameplay loop.
The average low effort player really is... something.

Like bro/sis, please read your skills and traits. Maybe make use of Charged Mists if your energy management is poor?
Perhaps include more boon duration so you only have to upkeep -6 for 3 seconds every now and then?

How did you people even manage to play Herald when Draconic Echo wasn't even a thing?

Most of the pushback is actually the opposite. Old quickherald was more difficult to run but gave you pretty much complete freedom with what you did in the other legend. New quickherald before the most recent patch was easier to play, but demanded that both legends contribute to quickness application. Current quickherald is almost ridiculously easy. The objection, however, outside of subjective "what do people enjoy" objections, is that the stated goal was to give quickherald more opportunities to make better use of their skills by not "forcing" them to consume facets on recharge. Now, however, instead of not being able to use your facets at the best time because you need to consume them to maintain quickness, you're pressured to not use them in order to keep enough facets available to make for 6 pips of upkeep... unless you can comfortably cover quickness with the other legend (Shiro and Mallyx are pretty good for this if you're not looking to get anything else out of them apart from damage).

What it has certainly done is make herald feel more passive to play. Quickherald used to have a very different style to DPS herald - now they both pretty much have the same style of setting your upkeep skills, and then making sure you don't use enough energy doing anything else to force your upkeep skills to drop. New quickherald is a little more forgiving in this respect than DPS herald, but that's the only real difference, and Draconic Echo in PvE has been relegated to some pretty niche functions (handkiting and maybe condi herald, although for the latter I'm sceptical that there are many situations where you'd actually take Draconic Echo over quickness). Which is where a large part of the pushback is coming from - the more active herald playstyle has been all but deleted, leaving only the more passive form that some people find less satisfying to play. Which is essentially the opposite of your "everyone complaining is an idiot who doesn't know how to revenant" insinuation.

I also don't know why you're stressing PvE there, except maybe as another insinuation that PvE is an inferior mode - neither version is providing quickness in competitive modes, so which version of quickherald we have is irrelevant outside of PvE.

Edited July 21, 2023 by draxynnic.3719

[Lilodelacroix.8714]

I have followed this discussion, and i just want to emphasize what is bothering me here a lot:
I am not saying that the new Herald is not effective or is weak.

Something can be strong and be badly designed at the same time. 
The Rework made Herald less fun to play, more braindead, and more boring. But it also made QuickDPS Herald very strong. 

I will stand by what i said: the Herald rework did not achieve what it set out to do, and the insane free stats we get now are just a bandaid fix for the main issue: it's poorly designed. 
At this point, i would rather see all the Herald changes reverted than have the class so blatantly overpowered bc it otherwise wouldn't function.

And i still believe that full berserker Herald shouldn't be able to upkeep quickness. Period. Gear investment is important to balancing, and going full dps gear on a "support" can't be the goal.
Fix the design, remove the bandaid buffs that make it op.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Lilodelacroix.8714

[Sobx.1758]

On 7/17/2023 at 9:44 PM, Lilodelacroix.8714 said:

• Energy Upkeep is a big problem, with how Revenant skills have been changed over the years. Qherald is very limited in what it can actually do. We have all these skills, and we are supposed to manage energy cost and play around it, but because we have to upkeep 6 pips at all time, we do not regenerate energy, we just drain it, leaving us with no energy to use skills.

Boon duration is a thing. You don't need to "upkeep 6 pips at all time". If you're more concerned about squeezing every last bit of dps over the conveniency and utility you could provide instead then you can kind of only blame yourself here.

I'm getting kind of sick of people just wanting everything optimilized while basically doing all of it passively. Pressing skills? Bad. Upkeep threshold? Bad. Investing in any stats beside pure dps? Bad. Like... what is this?

On 7/21/2023 at 6:16 AM, Kozumi.5816 said:

Quickness herald dps is crazy and basically an LI spec that gives tons of boons very easily so I don't understand this threads complaints.

True, this is already laughably easy to play. Wanting to do even more than that by infinitely toggling f2 isn't a good direction.

 

e:

17 hours ago, Lilodelacroix.8714 said:

And i still believe that full berserker Herald shouldn't be able to upkeep quickness. Period. Gear investment is important to balancing, and going full dps gear on a "support" can't be the goal.

So... doesn't that solve your whole complaint? You think you shouldn't be able to upkeep quickness with full berk. You also don't like that you have to "always upkeep 6 pips". Slot conc and it's 2 birds with one stone?

Edited July 22, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[ZenDrake.8316]

On 7/22/2023 at 4:30 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

True, this is already laughably easy to play. Wanting to do even more than that by infinitely toggling f2 isn't a good direction.

Just revert the "rework". Makes qdps herald a bit more challenging to play again while also restoring the fun in heal herald (especially the ability to reactively swap legends, because your prot, regen and swiftness uptime are bound to Glint for the most part - shield 4 is borderline useless for prot since only the projectile gives prot, not the AoE).

Edited July 23, 2023 by ZenDrake.8316

[Mell.4873]

I mean we have to remember before this patch we had to spam all the Glint Utilities off-cooldown. 

I wouldn't exactly call that easy gameplay. The Low Intensity version we have now has way more freedom to actually do something other than spamming skills. 

You could just camp something that drains energy but the real power is using a few skills before swapping Legend and working that into a rotation.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Gaeb.2837]

On 7/21/2023 at 4:49 PM, Lilodelacroix.8714 said:

I am not saying that the new Herald is not effective or is weak. Something can be strong and be badly designed at the same time. The Rework made Herald less fun to play, more braindead, and more boring. But it also made QuickDPS Herald very strong. 

This is my take as well. The new QDPS herald is easy and effective, but not fun (or terribly flexible, although if you add some boondur you do get some leeway to push more buttons). I think they managed to screw over the QHeal heralds in the process. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Gaeb.2837

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

9 hours ago, Gaeb.2837 said:

This is my take as well. The new QDPS herald is easy and effective, but not fun (or terribly flexible, although if you add some boondur you do get some leeway to push more buttons). I think they managed to screw over the QHeal heralds in the process. 

Eh, Qhealherald isn't really screwed, especially after the changes on the 18th. At 100% BD the quickness being pulsed is 2.5s for every 1s, so you can get a huge buffer pretty quickly. Moreover, might generation is even easier and higher now, with 1 stack of 24s might every second just with Shared Empowerment, so you can get a huge amount of might without even using Facet of Strength. Elevated Compassion also pulses healing every 1s, so while you're upkeeping you're still providing some additional healing. If you do need to dump a lot of energy on burst healing, you can do so comfortably if you have a buffer, which you should in almost all scenarios (groups really shouldn't be taking massive damage within 5-10s of a fight, which is all you need to build huge quickness). Ventari/Jalis is now an option as well, if you don't want/need Glint's boons. The build requires more micromanagement now, but overall after the 18th's changes the build is fairly flexible now. Heal Herald is likely either the same or better than before the Elevated Compassion changes

Edited July 25, 2023 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[ZenDrake.8316]

On 7/25/2023 at 6:14 AM, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

At 100% BD the quickness being pulsed is 2.5s for every 1s, so you can get a huge buffer pretty quickly

Again, the problem is neither might nor quickness. The OTHER boons are the problem. You barely have healing on Glint, but if you swap to Ventari or Jalis too quickly (you know, like a reactive support playstyle might require) you drop uptime on prot, regen and swiftness (yes, swiftness is relevant to some builds, and it also feels way better if you have it). The other boons also only pulse every 3 seconds, which brings back the same problem we had before the recent changes for quickness.

Edited July 29, 2023 by ZenDrake.8316

[Kozumi.5816]

  

On 7/21/2023 at 4:49 PM, Lilodelacroix.8714 said:

And i still believe that full berserker Herald shouldn't be able to upkeep quickness. Period. Gear investment is important to balancing, and going full dps gear on a "support" can't be the goal.
Fix the design, remove the bandaid buffs that make it op.

 

Ok then let's nerf the other 9 meta supports that do it in full zerker/viper's too...

The ship sailed on this design, 2/11 supports require more than 0% boon duration now for 100% uptime, and those 2 are never played.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Kozumi.5816

[Sobx.1758]

13 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

On 7/22/2023 at 4:30 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

And i still believe that full berserker Herald shouldn't be able to upkeep quickness. Period. Gear investment is important to balancing, and going full dps gear on a "support" can't be the goal.

Ok then let's nerf the other 8 meta supports that do it in full zerker/viper's too...

The ship sailed on this design, 2/11 supports require more than 0% boon duration now for 100% uptime, and those 2 are never played.

...but it wasn't me who said that?

@Lilodelacroix.8714 wrote that, I responded to it and now you've quoted it as if it was me who wrote it instead.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[UncreativeGreen.2019]

 

On 7/28/2023 at 8:54 PM, ZenDrake.8316 said:

Again, the problem is neither might nor quickness. The OTHER boons are the problem. You barely have healing on Glint, but if you swap to Ventari or Jalis too quickly (you know, like a reactive support playstyle might require) you drop uptime on prot, regen and swiftness (yes, swiftness is relevant to some builds, and it also feels way better if you have it). The other boons also only pulse every 3 seconds, which brings back the same problem we had before the recent changes for quickness.

No Revenant build has been reactive... anytime you try to maximize efficiency you're going to be swapping legends off cooldown. That's always been the flow of revenant on any role. Power, Condi, Healer, and any combination of boon support. It's up to the rev player themselves to identify how the flow of combat is going to happen and line up accordingly. When it comes to raids and fractals, even world bosses, there's always time where there's a lot of damage being dished out to the party, and others where its calmer. You got to learn to align your self and your swaps accordingly by reading the fight and learning the mechanics.....

Now all of that said. You comment is just plain false. Just log on, put on 100% boon duration that the heal herald would have, turn on all your facets, till you run out of energy, and swap. They'll remain till you make it back into glint.... depending on the global server tick you'll either end your glint swap with 12 or 18s of each of the boons you're saying fall off. Hell, you can even just sit in glint, run out of energy, they all turn off and go on a 4s cd, turn them all back on, repeat.... very quickly you start hitting the 30s cap for all these boons. 

If you want to have healing all the time then play something around the lines of a ventari/alliance vindi. But the Idea of a heal qherald is to condense roles so people can get more of that big duck dps out. Gotta give up something to get the other. Alot of these healers on other especs don't even have access to their healing bursts at all time either. They're playing by the same rules. It's just gated by cooldowns or a separate mechanic. 

It's a viable build for those that want to play it and it feels fine. It's honestly felt fine in either adaptation (minus the requirement of needing to use the heal and stunbreak facets off cooldown, but that could have been fixed in easier ways). People just can't bother to adapt. 

[ZenDrake.8316]

2 hours ago, UncreativeGreen.2019 said:

anytime you try to maximize efficiency you're going to be swapping legends off cooldown

This just isn't true for heal revenant builds. Neither in PvE prior to the herald rework, nor in WvW on heal vindicator. You choose the legend you need at that moment.

2 hours ago, UncreativeGreen.2019 said:

there's always time where there's a lot of damage being dished out to the party, and others where its calmer.

Have you actually played this on encounters with a lot of damage pressure like Lagos or VG (soloheal for that one)? Or fractals (especially with the afflicted instability)? You are constantly energy starved on Glint, making even the condi cleanse/heal from staff 4 hard to pull off since you want to have all facets active for their boons. Missing out on one tick might leave you with just 9 secs of boons, which is really tight.

2 hours ago, UncreativeGreen.2019 said:

If you want to have healing all the time then play something around the lines of a ventari/alliance vindi

We both know that healers that neither give alac or quickness have no place in PvE, that's not an alternative. Prior to this change, you still had at least some healing available on Glint, but now it's really difficult to spend energy on staff skills as you lose out on boon ticks.

 

It just doesn't feel fun anymore for me.

Edited July 31, 2023 by ZenDrake.8316

[draxynnic.3719]

I think the fun factor is an important consideration. It's why some people have suggested leaving the current system in place, but also bring back quickness on Draconic Echo. That way players could choose which version they want to use. Currently, Draconic Echo feels effectively dead in PvE - if you're playing solo the bonuses don't stack up to what quickness can give you, and if you're playing in a group and you're not providing quickness, you take the third grandmaster for the damage boost. Maybe if dps condi herald ever becomes a thing in party/squad content.

[Kozumi.5816]

On 7/31/2023 at 5:22 PM, ZenDrake.8316 said:

We both know that healers that neither give alac or quickness have no place in PvE, that's not an alternative. Prior to this change, you still had at least some healing available on Glint, but now it's really difficult to spend energy on staff skills as you lose out on boon ticks.

 

It just doesn't feel fun anymore for me.

Herald shouldn't be a healer, and vind having healing but no alac/quickness while renegade has no healing but alac is extremely awkward and unfixable.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Kozumi.5816

[UncreativeGreen.2019]

27 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Herald shouldn't be a healer, and vind having healing but no alac/quickness while renegade has no healing but alac is extremely awkward and unfixable.

Heal Renegade use to be solid and a nice addition to builds that had high hits per second in their dps rotations as Soulcleave was amazing. They unfortunately over nerfed it to the point were it was overshadowed even more by other options going from viable to niche to retired. I do miss heal Renegade, was a nice mix of utility and was pretty beginner friendly as far as rev goes. 

Talking about the other specs, the quickness was right there in plain sight on vindi, all they had to do was make a trait to make it aoe. You could have had one trait that possibly made red alliance a quickness provider that leans in a more offensive direction and then another COMPETING TRAIT (as in not to be able to take both) that would make blue alliance an alacrity provider that leaned more towards healing. Yes I know the alacrity vindi had a brief life, but they took a hard statement to no core class utilities providing  quickness/alacrity so that fun was ruined. I'm glad that the options aren't both stacked into one espec, as it gives some variety, but they do seem like odd choices and somewhat shoehorned in. Maybe Glint designed as a pure power dps and Renegade designed as a pure condi dps with Vindi covering the boon support would have been better, but ultimately that would be incredibly limiting. 

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Herald shouldn't be a healer, and vind having healing but no alac/quickness while renegade has no healing but alac is extremely awkward and unfixable.

Why shouldn't it? Herald has obviously been intended to be suitable for healing builds all along - it's built around giving boons to allies nearby, shield has a strong heal, and while the herald traitline has had a few reworks, they've always had traits in there that support being a healer.

The problem is that ArenaNet has tried to make every revenant elite specialisation into something that offers support options, and as a result they're all competing with each other. Herald is currently winning in PvE because it combines quickness with better healing than a post-nerf healren.