stuns: can i even play the game?

[bethekey.8314]

On 7/23/2023 at 10:32 AM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Bladesworn being this way isn't a problem with stuns/cc in general. Its a problem with its sustain and overall design. 

You wouldn't make this argument for any other warrior despite them needing cc to hold their weapon kits together more than bladeswom does. 

I somewhat agree? Berserker seems potentially overtuned too. I just see something like this...

On 7/21/2023 at 2:10 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Stunbreak

Stability

Blind

Block

Aegis

Evade

Dodge

...and die a little inside. Anything vaguely viable on Engi struggles to fit two stunbreaks or stab because of a need to fit at least 1 kit in (to match weapon swap). The abundance of projectile hate and unblockable renders most of our active defense worthless, resistance is rampant, cata hitting 3 times a second clears every blind, bladesworn aegis still reflecting infinite skills (lol)...

Sure, some classes HAD ways to defend themselves outside of stunbreaks + dodge. But that's often not the case anymore against the god specs. I would pay a pretty copper to watch catas/bladesworns/untameds make a basic non-nade Engi build and go up against good catas/bladesworns/untameds, all the while yelling "just dodge" as their gears get ground into the dirt.

Love the "currently unhinged" signature btw.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

34 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Anything vaguely viable on Engi struggles to fit two stunbreaks or stab because of a need to fit at least 1 kit in (to match weapon swap).

This is another issue. I have some empathy for engineers dealing with stunlocking because of the space limitation.

Quote

Love the "currently unhinged" signature btw.

*tears up* I just wanna clear blinds on arc divider so bad

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 Berserker seems potentially overtuned too.

Keeping an eye on condizerk. Not 100% sure on that just yet.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Myror.7521]

@bethekey.8314 would say Bladesworn and Condi Berserker are both somewhat overtuned but the Rest of Warr (besides CC Spam Builds) are litterly all somewhat garbage actually compared to the Rest of Builds/classes

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, bethekey.8314 said:

I somewhat agree? Berserker seems potentially overtuned too. I just see something like this...

...and die a little inside. Anything vaguely viable on Engi struggles to fit two stunbreaks or stab because of a need to fit at least 1 kit in (to match weapon swap). The abundance of projectile hate and unblockable renders most of our active defense worthless, resistance is rampant, cata hitting 3 times a second clears every blind, bladesworn aegis still reflecting infinite skills (lol)...

Sure, some classes HAD ways to defend themselves outside of stunbreaks + dodge. But that's often not the case anymore against the god specs. I would pay a pretty copper to watch catas/bladesworns/untameds make a basic non-nade Engi build and go up against good catas/bladesworns/untameds, all the while yelling "just dodge" as their gears get ground into the dirt.

Love the "currently unhinged" signature btw.

You have blinds right? And blocks on shield and toolkit right? (Mind you I only have some engi time but I seem to recall those two specifically)

[bethekey.8314]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

You have blinds right? And blocks on shield and toolkit right? (Mind you I only have some engi time but I seem to recall those two specifically)

Yeah, except:

2 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

The abundance of projectile hate and unblockable renders most of our active defense worthless, resistance is rampant, cata hitting 3 times a second clears every blind, bladesworn aegis still reflecting infinite skills (lol)...

It feels like a complete coin toss whether projectiles, blinds, roots, blocks etc. work lately. Especially in Xv1 situations. Warriors be like "notice the subtle way the hand holds the dagger to distinguish unblockable/tether/ruin your world skill vs normal ability, while also looking in .05 seconds to see if Warrior has resistance or stab, then choose the perfect ability to counter it before the attack lands". Just an example lol. That's not happening for anyone with decent ping.

At a certain point things become a dodge check. And there are oh so many things to dodge... Stunbreaks / stability are really key here to save you after the fact / not have to react to everything, but yeah, not everyone can slot a ton of those.

[otto.5684]

On 7/21/2023 at 5:10 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

No. Anet has provided tools for you to mitigate this mechanic already. They are:

Stunbreak

Stability

Blind

Block

Aegis

Evade

Dodge

Use the tools available to you and gain advantage over your opponent.

Yes, but these are the same tools available to avoid all damage. And stability is very lacking. Plus some classes have significantly more CC options the others, which can result in very one sided encounters. The current game balance results in very high CC time, especially in uneven games. It is not uncommon to get CCed 50+ times in a game. 

 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

3 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

not everyone can slot a ton of those.

Just for engie posterity, this is the angle I can see you arguing .
I am not a big fan of the "just let people walk out of combos after I pressed all my break buttons" route-

But I am a fan of "I need more stunbreaks, I can only slot one on this build and if I try to slot 2 the build becomes garbage/I lose most of my damage." I do think that pressing all your save buttons then getting stunned means you deserve to die, but you should at some point get to press those buttons.

I would have sooner seen engie get some stunbreak on (and this is a longshot but) equipping a kit with an appropriate icd that only starts if it breaks a stun  than, say diminishing stun returns or...whatever got dragons tooth and like 5 other ele skills reworked. 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

7 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

Yes, but these are the same tools available to avoid all damage. And stability is very lacking. Plus some classes have significantly more CC options the others, which can result in very one sided encounters. The current game balance results in very high CC time, especially in uneven games. It is not uncommon to get CCed 50+ times in a game. 

 

And some classes have significant access to things like blind, evade, aegis/blocks. The tools exist, it's up to the individual player to manage their CDs and dodges, otherwise we'd just have to sponges hitting each other with pool noodles. You shouldn't have a counter button to everything.

 

 

7 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Just for engie posterity, this is the angle I can see you arguing .
I am not a big fan of the "just let people walk out of combos after I pressed all my break buttons" route-

But I am a fan of "I need more stunbreaks, I can only slot one on this build and if I try to slot 2 the build becomes garbage/I lose most of my damage." I do think that pressing all your save buttons then getting stunned means you deserve to die, but you should at some point get to press those buttons.

I would have sooner seen engie get some stunbreak on (and this is a longshot but) equipping a kit with an appropriate icd that only starts if it breaks a stun  than, say diminishing stun returns or...whatever got dragons tooth and like 5 other ele skills reworked. 

^ That being said, each of the professions should have meaningful utility skills, including stun breaks.

[shion.2084]

14 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Yeah, except:

It feels like a complete coin toss whether projectiles, blinds, roots, blocks etc. work lately. Especially in Xv1 situations. Warriors be like "notice the subtle way the hand holds the dagger to distinguish unblockable/tether/ruin your world skill vs normal ability, while also looking in .05 seconds to see if Warrior has resistance or stab, then choose the perfect ability to counter it before the attack lands". Just an example lol. That's not happening for anyone with decent ping.

At a certain point things become a dodge check. And there are oh so many things to dodge... Stunbreaks / stability are really key here to save you after the fact / not have to react to everything, but yeah, not everyone can slot a ton of those.

You can also just stun break right into a stun before you can even dodge roll out.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

22 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

You can also just stun break right into a stun before you can even dodge roll out.

That is just pure misplaying then.

[shion.2084]

3 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

That is just pure misplaying then.

Well the Spell Breaker stun or daze causes immob... which means you can't get away... because you had one stun break... you don't have access to cleanse without burning a toolkit, so by the time you do do that.....  You also can't take the next hit and then break after that cause you only had 15k health.

But I'm willing to learn... what's the misplay?  How do you avoid the chaining with a single stun break and probably no cleanse.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

43 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

Well the Spell Breaker stun or daze causes immob... which means you can't get away... because you had one stun break... you don't have access to cleanse without burning a toolkit, so by the time you do do that.....  You also can't take the next hit and then break after that cause you only had 15k health.

But I'm willing to learn... what's the misplay?  How do you avoid the chaining with a single stun break and probably no cleanse.

You said that you stunbroke into another stun so couldn't dodge anyway. Eat the second stun and then stunbreak. As to the immob if this is a spellbreaker, you can take a cleansing sigil and equip a kit that also has a blind or block on it to further mitigate while the immob wears off if your cleansing sigil was still on CD or the immob had a cover condi over it.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, shion.2084 said:

You can also just stun break right into a stun before you can even dodge roll out.

This does not spark joy, what you do is you wait for the second stun or, if you see a damage skill coming, you stunbreak and dodge then.

This is the scenario I dont think warrants handholding. Not having enough tools up front? Fine, understandable. 

[shion.2084]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

You said that you stunbroke into another stun so couldn't dodge anyway. Eat the second stun and then stunbreak. As to the immob if this is a spellbreaker, you can take a cleansing sigil and equip a kit that also has a blind or block on it to further mitigate while the immob wears off if your cleansing sigil was still on CD or the immob had a cover condi over it.

So to be clear... as long as I have a stun break, a cleanse, a dodge roll available, I can avoid getting infinitely chained and dead with one landed hit.

[shion.2084]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

This does not spark joy, what you do is you wait for the second stun or, if you see a damage skill coming, you stunbreak and dodge then.

This is the scenario I dont think warrants handholding. Not having enough tools up front? Fine, understandable. 

This brings up another of my complaints... along with standard models there should be a standard animations, that clearly indicates the type of attack that is coming (and this should be common across all classes).   Skill in this game should be related to positioning, tactics, reflexes, resource management.  It should NOT be reliant on remember what colour someone's hand is, especially in fights with a million effects going off.   If something is unblockable there should an indication the attack is unblockabe.. if it can stun, yup a standard indication... They have a reflect on... yup an indication.

Figuring out the graphics and playing should not be part of the game... reacting to things and baiting things should be.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

So to be clear... as long as I have a stun break, a cleanse, a dodge roll available, I can avoid getting infinitely chained and dead with one landed hit.

If we're talking about Spell with No Escape. Then that will break the chain and allow you agency again. This does not mean that the Spell, or someone else cannot restart the chain, that is still incumbent on you to actively avoid and mitigate if you cannot. This goes both ways mind you.  Each of us has a finite skill set, some more so than others, and you have to build defenses into that set and manage them. The obvious point is that if you blow those CDs and get caught, then your opponent is getting their reward for keeping track of your resources and managing their own CDs appropriately.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

This is the scenario I dont think warrants handholding. Not having enough tools up front? Fine, understandable. 

This bears repeating. Are the tools even there?

[Saiyan.1704]

On 7/21/2023 at 3:56 PM, Duke Nukem.6783 said:

the stuns in gw2 pvp are out of control, some builds just keep you on the ground or stunned and you can't do anything till you're dead.

.....Aren't you a Guardian main?

[shion.2084]

8 minutes ago, Saiyan.1704 said:

.....Aren't you a Guardian main?

I think he's just trying to help out us poor engineers without the same defensives 🙂