Why Ranger and Warrior are jokes

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

On 7/30/2023 at 1:50 AM, bethekey.8314 said:

They designed themselves into a corner with Mechanist too. Same "recent" paid content. Mechanist is in the dumpster and I don't see it leaving anytime soon.

That is because the previous balance lead whom I suspect left Anet is the one who made Mechanist. CMC made Bladesworn.
 

@Azure The Heartless.3261, is right. They designed themselves into a corner with Bladesworn. It is mechanically trash, so they have to inflate the numbers for it to even work. Their answer to Warrior's problems always seems to be to over inflate it's sustain rather than actually make the skills better to use, like removing weird after casts or adding in actual functionality.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Lan Deathrider.5910
Typos

[Psycoprophet.8107]

9 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

This forum wont stop until every build feels soulless and bland.

Sticks for everybody!

^^^^ this is why the devs need to make pvp balance decisions based on how these specs perform in high lv competitions where the players are around the same skill level, if a spec is dominating the competitions than its build should be shaved down not hammered so the build remains strong but not oppressive. While doing this the devs need to completely ignore nerf cries etc found in the forums and reddit, the balance suggestions in either are 99% based of bias towards their own classes they play.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

9 hours ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

^^^^ this is why the devs need to make pvp balance decisions based on how these specs perform in high lv competitions where the players are around the same skill level, if a spec is dominating the competitions than its build should be shaved down not hammered so the build remains strong but not oppressive. While doing this the devs need to completely ignore nerf cries etc found in the forums and reddit, the balance suggestions in either are 99% based of bias towards their own classes they play.

I would point out however that if a main is pointing to something that needs to be toned down about their class then it is probably worth listening to.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Lan Deathrider.5910

[Psycoprophet.8107]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I would point out however that if a main is pointing to something that needs to be toned down about their class then it is probably worth listening too.

100% agree.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

2 hours ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

^^^^ this is why the devs need to make pvp balance decisions based on how these specs perform in high lv competitions where the players are around the same skill level, if a spec is dominating the competitions than its build should be shaved down not hammered so the build remains strong but not oppressive. While doing this the devs need to completely ignore nerf cries etc found in the forums and reddit, the balance suggestions in either are 99% based of bias towards their own classes they play.

This doesn't fully work

[bethekey.8314]

On 7/30/2023 at 8:45 AM, Endorphin.9147 said:

Once these specs get nerfed, I wonder what specs the forums will complain about next?

12 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

This forum wont stop until every build feels soulless and bland.

Sticks for everybody!

Don't really understand this criticism here. I understand that there are many quick calls for nerfs on the forums, and they should be tempered. However, lately it's been a year of correct calls for Ele nerfs (not necessarily the specific nerfs, but that they're needed). The forum was primarily inundated with those, not bad calls, from what I saw. Odd time for you both to make these arguments.

Does this cynicism, in this thread, mean you're in favor of 1 attack doing 20k+ damage? Bladesworn having this much sustain/defense/damage in one package? I'd love to hear that rationale.

[bethekey.8314]

3 hours ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

^^^^ this is why the devs need to make pvp balance decisions based on how these specs perform in high lv competitions where the players are around the same skill level, if a spec is dominating the competitions than its build should be shaved down not hammered so the build remains strong but not oppressive. While doing this the devs need to completely ignore nerf cries etc found in the forums and reddit, the balance suggestions in either are 99% based of bias towards their own classes they play.

There is no high level competition to balance around anymore. Maybe high level players. Not much competition, for various reasons outside this thread.

And the devs certainly ignored Ele nerf cries on the forums for a year. Was one of the worst balance times this game has ever had. Awful timing on your take here.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

50 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Does this cynicism, in this thread, mean you're in favor of 1 attack doing 20k+ damage? Bladesworn having this much sustain/defense/damage in one package? I'd love to hear that rationale.

Hey can I step in here

I want bladesworn to have on demand stab on dragon trigger instead of aegis on a CD (triggerguard is a good place for it), with less sustain.

And if they charge up for 5-6 seconds, you dont move out of the way, and they hit you with force, it should oneshot you (or do extreme damage, pick your flavor of getting hit by 10-14kish). 

Boost and reach should have capped damage because they double as utility. 

The sustain should be adjusted appropriately, and there should be setups moved into tools to allow people to be more easily put in a position to be hit by force (and the threat of that will allow them to be overreached by boost and reach more easily.). Electric Fence is a good carrier for such. 

They shouldnt just be autoreflecting and autohealing everything. This is the same kitten issue we had with it on launch when it had stab every 5 seconds and nobody could stop it from doing anything. 

If you're going to design a class around charging up a massive strike without moving you should probably allow it to do that, and adjust its skirmishing capability to allow it to function outside of that commitment without floating about with a constant aura of aegis. 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[bethekey.8314]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

They shouldnt just be autoreflecting and autohealing everything. This is the same kitten issue we had with it on launch when it had stab every 5 seconds and nobody could stop it from doing anything. 

If you're going to design a class around charging up a massive strike without moving you should probably allow it to do that, and adjust its skirmishing capability to allow it to function outside of that commitment without floating about with a constant aura of aegis. 

Agreed. Some of the suggestions seem good, but still difficult to balance due to fundamental class design. I'm against true "one-shots" and don't believe any one ability should deal 15k+ damage. I believe the Holo "detonate" GM comes meets that criteria (?) and makes me wonder how much charge, how much self-sacrifice, is necessary to ever justify 15k+ damage.

Like Dragon Trigger, the Holo has to take the time to "charge up" and can't use Forge again until the time to explode, making them extra vulnerable/removing an entire weapon set. It deals 4k to the Holosmith and locks them out of Forge + Toolbelts for 5 seconds too. Is the sacrifice/charge time of Dragon Trigger already equivalent to that?

Ideally, Dragon Trigger damage should match the investment, and people who get hit should understand/feel that they either got outplayed/didn't take clear steps to avoid it. I don't currently feel that way, even with my occasional bad dodge (lol). Bladesworns aren't investing/sacrificing much at all (are too safe) for the damage return/utility they get.

[Flowki.7194]

Why is this even debated still? soulbeast is an absolute joke, just hold down W, spam all your dmg, and if the enemy doesnt double dodge in the first 5 second hes dead. Warriors are running around with a low skill floor, face tanking dmg that would get most others killed, while putting out enough stuns or dmg to force you to burn utility... all of which they achieve with 5 main buttons. This just adds to the already toxic experiance of facing multiple classes with target drop+burst, particularly chrono/sb, unkillable low risk high reward DD thiefs, 5 button virts, and the good old run into any rediculous situation > just reap and wurm out necro. Oh and their are alot more core gaurds running around face tanking all kinds of damage thanks to free mitigation. 

 

And they say this game takes skill, where? what spec?

 

Im not even joking, where is the skill in this game? its litterally at the point of play a kitten low skill floor bunker build, or play a kitten low skill floor burst spec. Chrono doesn't even count in my book, target drops lose all credibility.. I have more respect for a hollow, or a herald.. far better mechanics.

 

 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

59 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Agreed. Some of the suggestions seem good, but still difficult to balance due to fundamental class design. I'm against true "one-shots" and don't believe any one ability should deal 15k+ damage. I believe the Holo "detonate" GM comes meets that criteria (?) and makes me wonder how much charge, how much self-sacrifice, is necessary to ever justify 15k+ damage.

Like Dragon Trigger, the Holo has to take the time to "charge up" and can't use Forge again until the time to explode, making them extra vulnerable/removing an entire weapon set. It deals 4k to the Holosmith and locks them out of Forge + Toolbelts for 5 seconds too. Is the sacrifice/charge time of Dragon Trigger already equivalent to that?

Ideally, Dragon Trigger damage should match the investment, and people who get hit should understand/feel that they either got outplayed/didn't take clear steps to avoid it. I don't currently feel that way, even with my occasional bad dodge (lol). Bladesworns aren't investing/sacrificing much at all (are too safe) for the damage return/utility they get.

Yeah. Its not fun to deal with currently.

You and I differ in opinion when it comes to oneshot justification, I'm perfectly fine with people getting hit for all their hp if the opponent goes "hey I'm gonna hit you here is a three hour speech about the futility of this fight while I charge meter you better stop me oh you didnt stop me? Perish".

I can see how that expectation would in some cases be tempered but i mean *gestures at dragon trigger* tf other option is there with all respect.

With the current version of bladeswom though? Nah. There's a ton of ways they could balance it that would be fairer though. They could even roll out the defiance bar mechanic on it if they made sure the damage it could put out was organized in such a way that it can be stopped.

Quote

how much charge, how much self-sacrifice, is necessary to ever justify 15k+ damage

You need to meet a couple criteria imo

You must  telegraph the hit well before it lands with plenty of flashing lights and a sound effect that people will pan their cameras toward, ideally for several seconds.  If you're stealthed, it must remove stealth on channel.

You must suffer some movement impediment.

You must hit a limited and well indicated range.

You must be interruptible (not easily but reasonably so). If the move has a high base damage, it must be more easily interruptible. If it requires glassbuilding to hit omegahard, then an argument can be made for less interruptibility in some cases.

The move itself must be evadable and then go on a reasonably long cooldown.

If you satisfy all of those requirements then you can wipe people for 20k. Gamers should know how to avoid big sword charge.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

21 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

 

 

Im not even joking, where is the skill in this game? its litterally at the point of play a kitten low skill floor bunker build, or play a kitten low skill floor burst spec.

 

 

The high skill investment builds dont get played because they dont win vs the other types you mentioned. Why spend months learning how to play an excellent reaper when you can copypaate a build, learn a specific button sequence, then wipe people just as invested as you are off the map or bore them to death?

[Flowki.7194]

32 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

The high skill investment builds dont get played because they dont win vs the other types you mentioned. Why spend months learning how to play an excellent reaper when you can copypaate a build, learn a specific button sequence, then wipe people just as invested as you are off the map or bore them to death?

Yeah I think im done with this game now. The average ranked or unranked is a steamroll either way, its never gets any better, thanks to the kitten poor matchmaking, and 95% of the specs played are low skill floor 5 button crutches.

 

I fully regret paying for the addons in this game. This is probably the worse mmorg I have ever played, yet frustratingly, it has some of the most interesting possibilitys like the engi specs. It just took me this long to realise the developers have not got a kittening clue, or just don't give a kitten. I pretty much ignored all the warning signs that this game is a shitfest of half finished projects.

[bethekey.8314]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

You need to meet a couple criteria imo

You must  telegraph the hit well before it lands with plenty of flashing lights and a sound effect that people will pan their cameras toward, ideally for several seconds.  If you're stealthed, it must remove stealth on channel.

You must suffer some movement impediment.

You must hit a limited and well indicated range.

You must be interruptible (not easily but reasonably so). If the move has a high base damage, it must be more easily interruptible. If it requires glassbuilding to hit omegahard, then an argument can be made for less interruptibility in some cases.

The move itself must be evadable and then go on a reasonably long cooldown.

If you satisfy all of those requirements then you can wipe people for 20k. Gamers should know how to avoid big sword charge.

Yeah, the skill would have to be like PvE imo lol. A big red zone that you have 3 seconds to avoid and puts the caster in jeopardy, or you die. I can also imagine a giant slow moving orb of death that only 1 shots after it has rolled long enough.

To have high damage, maybe add more tell to the Force animation to mimic PvE?

Edited August 1, 2023 by bethekey.8314

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

5 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Yeah, the skill would have to be like PvE imo lol. A big red zone that you have 3 seconds to avoid and puts the caster in jeopardy, or you die. I can also imagine a giant slow moving orb of death that only 1 shots after it has rolled long enough.

To have high damage, maybe add more tell to the Force animation to mimic PvE?

Like the minister li fight and how it illuminates the entire floor?

Yeah I like it. Mind the visual clutter though.

 

 

[Kuma.1503]

7 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

I have more respect for a hollow.

Everybody gangsta til the enemy busts out their Resurrección.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Kuma.1503
If you get the refrence you're a weeb.

[Shagie.7612]

hey watch this i wanna kitten off all the warriors cause it'll be funny

warrior hasn't been bad since the defense rework and their brains are simply broken from the time when it was bad during PoF

[Myror.7521]

@Shagie.7612 it was not only bad during PoF. It is bad since HoT and still is. The only time  it was for real "good" was while it was just released. Just think about it. It is a class that relies on hit its Burst skills. Its burst mechanic is bound though its main dmg, main heal, cleanse of conditions but also its dmg modifiers are bound though it. Meanwhile every single class get Access to blinds, ports, Aegis, Dodge, Invulnerability and Blocks or could simply just go out off range. The only real reason why it was never simply perma death and not variable is its self Defence cause thats where the class shines (also Back then it where able to do good dmg and kill at least one targed with a good set CC Burst Comb). So nowdays its just only good in selfhealing and thats basicly it. I wish it would be as it was Back then (enough dmg to kill peoples but not too mutch self heal at same time) but sadly anet decides they want it to be just that. A class that could hold classes on point and need any plus one at its Side.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

hey watch this i wanna kitten off all the warriors cause it'll be funny

warrior hasn't been bad since the defense rework and their brains are simply broken from the time when it was bad during PoF

Hasn't been bad sure but hasn't been great either. Arms still needs a rework, several of the weapons need updates as well. Adrenaline and Bursts as mechanics haven't aged well either and could use a face lift.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

7 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

hey watch this i wanna kitten off all the warriors cause it'll be funny

You're late to the party, get in line~

[Psycoprophet.8107]

On 7/31/2023 at 6:50 PM, Flowki.7194 said:

Why is this even debated still? soulbeast is an absolute joke, just hold down W, spam all your dmg, and if the enemy doesnt double dodge in the first 5 second hes dead. Warriors are running around with a low skill floor, face tanking dmg that would get most others killed, while putting out enough stuns or dmg to force you to burn utility... all of which they achieve with 5 main buttons. This just adds to the already toxic experiance of facing multiple classes with target drop+burst, particularly chrono/sb, unkillable low risk high reward DD thiefs, 5 button virts, and the good old run into any rediculous situation > just reap and wurm out necro. Oh and their are alot more core gaurds running around face tanking all kinds of damage thanks to free mitigation. 

 

And they say this game takes skill, where? what spec?

 

Im not even joking, where is the skill in this game? its litterally at the point of play a kitten low skill floor bunker build, or play a kitten low skill floor burst spec. Chrono doesn't even count in my book, target drops lose all credibility.. I have more respect for a hollow, or a herald.. far better mechanics.

 

 

This ^^^^ poster right here is 100% a perfect example of why the devs should ignore these forums, reads first paragraph and all I see is bias against ranger mixed with highly exaggerated hyperbolic claims. The whole post translates to whaaaaaa I don't like rangers please nerf it in to ground whaaaaaaa.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Psycoprophet.8107

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 8/1/2023 at 2:22 AM, Kuma.1503 said:

Everybody gangsta til the enemy busts out their Resurrección.

*Sweating in Fiesta De Guerra*

[Enduronex.4865]

Could be worse... you could always have the undodgeable CC ring DH shoot you with a True Shot for 14K... https://prnt.sc/9n6zQg3rR5sd

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

41 minutes ago, chromodynamix.2495 said:

Could be worse... you could always have the undodgeable CC ring DH shoot you with a True Shot for 14K... https://prnt.sc/9n6zQg3rR5sd

The undodgeable CC ring takes like 2 seconds to land, telegraphing the whole time, then doesn't itself hit you for anything (so you can leave it with stab) You can dodge it if you don't let it hit you or stay outside of the falling Aoe.

If you get hit by it you deserve the true shot if you don't have a button to press to avoid the trueshot. And I don't even play DH, I'm just a big fan of "if you don't dodge this dumb huge telegraph you should probably die."

Edited August 2, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

7 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

The undodgeable CC ring takes like 2 seconds to land, telegraphing the whole time, then doesn't itself hit you for anything (so you can leave it with stab) You can dodge it if you don't let it hit you or stay outside of the falling Aoe.

If you get hit by it you deserve the true shot if you don't have a button to press to avoid the trueshot. And I don't even play DH, I'm just a big fan of "if you don't dodge this dumb huge telegraph you should probably die."

Real skill shot is pulling them into True Shot with the F1 flipover and crossing over Test of Faith.