Is there a reason why GW2 PvP is so poorly balanced?

[vilesoldier.9826]

2 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

You think im doing damage back to a chrono/SB who just jumped? when they load up with stability or have access to invuln?

 

Yes I think you should. It's called kiting and not emptying your damage into their invulns. Find the gaps in their pressure.

 

2 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Scrapper when it was most in use, and current SB, jump from stealth, with multiple hard and soft CC, along with AOE, track, evade, and lock on damage, which ensures the front foot > high pressure = less reason to dodge, becuase the affected player is garuteed doing less damage (unless immune attack).

 

You can list all the mechanics you want but every single one has answers that are readily available to you.

If you consistently run into these front-loaded but glassy specs and cannot form a strategy to counter it, that's on you.

 

You cannot convince me that there is nothing that can be done about a soulbeast. I have one block, one blind, no teleports, telegraphed skills, and I have zero fear. What's your excuse? 🤪

 

In fact, I'm curious.

You see a soulbeast running towards you. Sw/warhorn variety, and the usual utilties, What is your strategy?

(he didn't want to answer xddd)

Edited December 14, 2023 by vilesoldier.9826

[arazoth.7290]

55 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

You are missing the point. My idea is that if the punishment for missing dodges is not "relatively equall" acorss specs.. then the dodge system is now a descriminatory factor to many specs (which it is). In that case you do 2 things. 1: Make all specs rely on active, concious mitigation so that mistakes can be punished via lack of active mitigation (which includes dodge) OR 2: Remove dodges and give all specs the low bar face tank or front loaded mechanics (like scourge, warrior, gaurd etc). Your notion that if a spec can't kill something, it simply lacks damage is not a good one. There are burst specs, and there are sustained damage-moderate sustain specs, then there are specs that do low damage but have high sustain. These are literal playstyles.. and gives a level of spec diversity that Gw2 likes to pretend it encourages.

 

Now let me distignuish active mitigation. I'm playing D/D ele, I engage a warrior, and dodge his opener, he then eats my CC. He breaks that CC and is then rewarded with a 2,3? second immunity to damage. That is not active mitigation, infact.. that is actually rewarding the warrior for failing to dodge/block. Ele has arcane shield fine, but you know that you have to pop the arcane shield at the right time, and moniter it, be ready to dodge/get out, as it gets shreded. That is active mitigation.

 

Other specs are doing the same brainless "active mitigation", SB, virt etc. They can pop invulns/immunes that have a set duration, this removes any need to monitor the uptime of said abilitys, so during those durations.. just faceroll nuke. Now ofc, activating such invulns on those specs is more proactive, but the actual use of them is simply press and forget "Oh kitten im taking damage, pop invuln, never think about dodging till it fades". Essentailly.. arcane shield is the way to go with any form of bock that allows you to continue to attack.. it is active mitigation, and active monitoring across its duration. The other forms of block/immunes where you are unable to attack back are fine as they are. With those types, not taking damage comes with the completely balanced downside of not doing damage. However, specs that could essentially spam blocks all day, would be broken.. unkillable, annoying to fight, similar to BS that essentially spams shield no matter what it presses.

 

You made comments on scrapper, I will respond to that, and any burst spec like it (including ele). Such burst specs are designed to get the jump, which puts the other person on the back foot. The other person, for the next 5-10 second or so.. has to get everything right or they die. The downside for that, is if you as the burst spec, fail your burst, you should now fold. The very concept of being able instantly aquire the front foot.. have the chance to kill a player before they can respond (or if they make a mistake) needs to be hard balanced by the fact you die when you fail. Surely you agree with that? Or else you end up with DD thief.. high mobility low risk game play, which bottlenecks the thiefs sustain for obious reasons. People who expect to not die after failing their burst are basically spoiled snowflakes.. want all of the rewards and none of the consequence.

However, with the amount of specs that spew out invuln/blocks while dmging back (burst specs and point holders), that counter balance is now gone. So again, on ele or rev, I will be punished fast for not being able to dodge, but the shear amount of specs that can simply pop a durational invuln/block, or have trait/passive mechanics that allow them to face tank, is simply astonishing.. when you consider that a lot of such specs have a low skill floor, yet have the effectiveness of moderate/high skill floor specs. Its truly absurd.

 

Btw scrapper burst was not hard to do, and SB is even easier, along with zerker condi bombs. The burst specs have systamatically got easier, and easier.. which means putting people on the back foot takes 0 effort... people on the back foot don't do as much damage (unless invuln spam), which means the agressor can get by with poorer dodge skill. You think the average scrapper/sb is going to be able to pull off a burst jump with ele, 12k hp,  an arcane shield, no dodge skill?

 

SB jumping from stealth, and litterally 70% of its damage comes from track-evade and auto lock mechanics, never has the front foot been easier. Who is going to suffer the most for bad dodging? ele or sb?

 

 

 

 

uhmmmm, you want dodge removed while you list that some rely on it compared go others having less dodge but relying on other stuff like blocks, invurnables.

Well if dodge gets removed, it will be worse for a lot who rely a lot less on it.

If they would compensate it ln everyone, their will be more blocks/invurnables. So now some people have less of it and others who already had good amount, have even more... Which results in worse balance. And also ironically enough what you summed up to hate which needs to be less 😅.

So now lets say no, the following, everyone who relies more on blocks/invurnables gets leds and dodge removed. => Who can do now the fastest bursts/most damage win with less skill required...

 

 

Dodge is there for all classes to balance the amount out for having not even more blocks, invurnables. Making same time a skill cap who uses it best.

Removing dodge would be a catastrophe

 

[Flowki.7194]

3 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

uhmmmm, you want dodge removed while you list that some rely on it compared go others having less dodge but relying on other stuff like blocks, invurnables.

Well if dodge gets removed, it will be worse for a lot who rely a lot less on it.

If they would compensate it ln everyone, their will be more blocks/invurnables. So now some people have less of it and others who already had good amount, have even more... Which results in worse balance. And also ironically enough what you summed up to hate which needs to be less 😅.

So now lets say no, the following, everyone who relies more on blocks/invurnables gets leds and dodge removed. => Who can do now the fastest bursts/most damage win with less skill required...

 

 

Dodge is there for all classes to balance the amount out for having not even more blocks, invurnables. Making same time a skill cap who uses it best.

Removing dodge would be a catastrophe

 

Oh I agree, but people seem unable to get past the shock of "remove dodge" to see the deeper point.

 

Do you agree there are specs that get away with, or are less punishing for bad dodging, or are all specs equal?

Edited December 14, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[arazoth.7290]

11 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Oh I agree, but people seem unable to get past the shock of "remove dodge" to see the deeper point.

 

Do you agree there are specs that get away with, or are less punishing for bad dodging, or are all specs equal?

yea some get too ez 🤷

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, arazoth.7290 said:

yea some get too ez 🤷

Right, and what is the chance of Anet reworking core mechanics of multiple classes? So here we are, multiple specs that punish a player harder for deficits in a "universal skill". Meanwhile, Anet intensify the problem by buffing numbers on specs that suffer less to deficits in a "universal skill".

 

For example, on a mechanical level, why is condi zerker even allowed to exist? It is the easiest spec I have ever played in an MMO, and it does massive spike damage. It is basically Condi mech, withought the mech.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[arazoth.7290]

5 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Right, and what is the chance of Anet reworking core mechanics of multiple classes? So here we are, multiple specs that punish a player harder for deficits in a "universal skill". Meanwhile, Anet intensify the problem by buffing numbers on specs that suffer less to deficits in a "universal skill".

 

For example, on a mechanical level, why is condi zerker even allowed to exist? It is the easiest spec I have ever played in an MMO, and it does massive spike damage. It is basically Condi mech, withought the mech.

well metas shift, until then we mostly endure sadly enough 

[MedievalThings.5417]

On 7/31/2023 at 11:24 AM, Khalisto.5780 said:

first pve has a higher priority in balance

second they have the resources to balance fast and I don't know why they don't

• Reduced vigor duration from 3 seconds to 1.5 seconds in PvP only when the Vindicator specialization is equipped.

this example above could be broadly implemented not sure why it hasn't happened yet. This could at least bring some core specs back to life, like core thief, with shortbow 5 costing 5 for core and 7 to elites.

Shortbow got nerfed because daredevil gets (gift wrapped by Anet) 3 dodges without sacrificing a sigil to get it.  It could be reverted by just taking away the 1 extra dodge they shouldn't have anyway.

[Sahne.6950]

16 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

You are missing the point.

nope. nope. nope.

i did NOT miss the point.   i know what you are saying 100%.  And i am trying to tell you that you are a victim of subjective experiences, thanks to playing a bad build.  And then you came to a really really bad conclusion.

READ MY POST.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Sahne.6950]

8 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Right, and what is the chance of Anet reworking core mechanics of multiple classes?

i do not think you realize that removing the dodgemechanic MUST be followed by a complete rework of every skill, profession, mob, boss, yada yada.

Not just lowering the damage... EVERYTHING need to be reworked.

 

Imagine you couldnt dodge... and a Hammer warrior is on your tail....     sleep tight little prince.  

Not being able to dodge CZerkers Skullgrinder?   yeah.... no....

Undodgeable, homing, Dragonstooth....   no thanks.

they would need to rework EVERYTHING.

Removing the dodgemechanic is NOT the right answer here.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Chaos God.1639]

GW2 still has one of the best pvp/wvw balance. people just like to create drama on forums

[Sahne.6950]

21 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

You think the average scrapper/sb is going to be able to pull off a burst jump with ele, 12k hp,  an arcane shield, no dodge skill?

Yes ofcourse!

The burst for All of those specs is laughably easy to perform, EVEN ON ELE. 

Staying alive inbetween the bursts, is the hard part.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[SlateSloan.3654]

i think the balance is a result of what they call "accessibility" nowadays. people who cant play fast paced games are enabled to do by giving them cc chains, huge amount of movement infringing condi, hybrid damage and ability to blink through buildings, objects and walls to burst 90% of enemy health with 1 button press etc.

the result is that the game is only fun if winning because the amount of games where you can call it "fun" even though you lost is almost non existing. if you lose it happens in a way of "nrrrrrrg who designs that kitten like that?"

 

and now please log into the forum and tell me i "shoulda doooodged" or "just equip 7 stunbreaks"...

Edited December 15, 2023 by SlateSloan.3654

[Flowki.7194]

10 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Yes ofcourse!

The burst for All of those specs is laughably easy to perform, EVEN ON ELE. 

Staying alive inbetween the bursts, is the hard part.

Not inbetween bursts, but during bursts. Zerker, SB, chrono, scrapper.. I found these much easier than ele, for a number of reasons relating to stealth jumps, or duration attacks while immune, or massive damage on 1 or 2 abilitys, all on the same weapon/stance etc. You won't concede the clear difference between poping arcane and popping an invuln, and having damage spread across multiple attunements?

 

Further more, if all burst specs are the same, all are easy, where are all the eles? even when cata was dominating, you still didn't see many of them (EU). Even less eles now, why? its just preference?, or its a complete coincidence that SB is now as common as necro?

Edited December 15, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Flowki.7194]

10 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

nope. nope. nope.

i did NOT miss the point.   i know what you are saying 100%.  And i am trying to tell you that you are a victim of subjective experiences, thanks to playing a bad build.  And then you came to a really really bad conclusion.

READ MY POST.

Ive read your posts. What bad build are you talking about? becuase ive played every ele build, every rev build, many ranger, warrior, necro, engi, thief builds etc etc. I always start with the meta builds, get comfortable with those, and then work in my own likings where I see fit. Meta builds in random play are rarely the most efficiant in my experiance, like staff tempest solo Que. There are "bad builds" and then there are "builds that are good but completely opressed by broken builds".

 

10 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

i do not think you realize that removing the dodgemechanic MUST be followed by a complete rework of every skill, profession, mob, boss, yada yada.

Not just lowering the damage... EVERYTHING need to be reworked.

 

Imagine you couldnt dodge... and a Hammer warrior is on your tail....     sleep tight little prince.  

Not being able to dodge CZerkers Skullgrinder?   yeah.... no....

Undodgeable, homing, Dragonstooth....   no thanks.

they would need to rework EVERYTHING.

Removing the dodgemechanic is NOT the right answer here.

I know exactly what removing dodge would do, and that it would require all of the above, and then some, it would completely destroy specs that heavily depend on it. The fact that you point that out is proving the point I am making. What specs would suffer the most if you removed dodge? all the same? all are equal?

 

I know kitten well business for 90% of SB's would continue as usual, same for virts, same for scourges, and so on. They already don't dodge properly and still do massive damage/hard to punish for not dodging (And you say this is a question of bad spec on my part, as if I havent played those specs and seen the lack of requirement to dodge compared to ele/rev). Its at the point now where dodging is a high level skill only, all the popular specs in mid/lower rank are more forgiving to face tanking gameplay. The meta shifted from power specs that were dropping people in under 3 seconds, to specs that can now face tank for 5+ seconds. Why? becuase all Anet do is buff numbers, and there is the result, one extreme to the next, broken core mechanics untouched.

 

You know best of all? one of the so called hardest, riskiest specs (DD thief) I found to be the least reliant on dodges, even with what, 12k hp? So much utility "rotation of mobility" "get in get out" before dodge is even needed, but dodge it still has, all 3 of them.

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Kuma.1503]

While I hate how engi is handled... I cant complain about Ele. Been pleasantly surprised at how good it feels since the weaponmaster beta.

Only negative that comes to mind is signets (just revert to pre-buff)

It's in a good spot overall. All 3 elites are playable. Core is good. Every weapon is viable. Nothing (to my knowledge) is OP. 

Idk about weaponmaster in current meta. Dont have SoTo. 

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Kuma.1503 said:

While I hate how engi is handled... I cant complain about Ele. Been pleasantly surprised at how good it feels since the weaponmaster beta.

Only negative that comes to mind is signets (just revert to pre-buff)

It's in a good spot overall. All 3 elites are playable. Core is good. Every weapon is viable. Nothing (to my knowledge) is OP. 

Idk about weaponmaster in current meta. Dont have SoTo. 

 

Why doesn't that show in representation?  I typically see 1 ele every third game, and 95% of the time its a dagger condi tempest.

[Kuma.1503]

50 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Why doesn't that show in representation?  I typically see 1 ele every third game, and 95% of the time its a dagger condi tempest.

Higher effort for moderate-high reward. 

Other builds are lower effort for the same reward. People follow the path of least resistance. 

I don't mind putting in more effort so long as the reward is there in the end. 

Pretty much the same reason Ele isn't played much in PvE despite having great numbers and good boons. 

[Sahne.6950]

6 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Why doesn't that show in representation?  I typically see 1 ele every third game, and 95% of the time its a dagger condi tempest.

In my games i pretty much ALWAYS have a Weaver on the enemy team.    (tho this is a result of the matchmaker giving me a mirror match, cuz i Q as Core.)

I really like what they have done with ele.  

it feels like its in a okay spot, without being opressive, unless you have a really good player behind the keyboard....   just how it should be. 

i am quite happy with Eles performance lately, ngl.

[Flowki.7194]

2 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

In my games i pretty much ALWAYS have a Weaver on the enemy team.    (tho this is a result of the matchmaker giving me a mirror match, cuz i Q as Core.)

I really like what they have done with ele.  

it feels like its in a okay spot, without being opressive, unless you have a really good player behind the keyboard....   just how it should be. 

i am quite happy with Eles performance lately, ngl.

Are you US? becuase thats not at all what I have seen in EU. I also Que a lot as FA core or cata the past months, before scepter nerf, I was playing a mix of hybrid condi support tempest, and hammer cata. I would bet all my savings that the next 20 ele I come up against, will very comfortably be a majority tempest. This has always been the case for me, I always seen that from low silver upto g3 where I was regularly matching with plats. There are less eles now than ever, seems many either quit after scepter nerf (was a key tempest hybrid weapon) or they crossed over to gaurd/SB, which are now the new tempest/scrapper.

 

Before the signet buffs there were more eles around (lets say 20% more than now), but again, mostly all tempests. Ofc there was a spike in bandwagon eles for condi cata, but they, and many "ele mains" stopped playing it after scepter nerf, which ended the easy condi cata damage, but also destroyed a lot of non-problomatic tempest/other condi builds. I very rarely seen a power cata over the last year of sPVP (lets say 1 - 50 games at best), when you did, 9/10 of them were newbs, and one was a god. Weaver was around the same, if not rarer. I can't tell you the exact math, but in my experiance, 90/100 power weavers/catas were, and still are easy kills. Same as hollows, vindis and heralds, they mostly die 5 seconds, and the ones that don't, are nion pro. This to me suggests something obvious, the specs have higher skill floors AND/OR, are too punishing for mistakes.

 

This isn't the first time I pointed out the shear lack of power catas, even across its high performance erer. Compare that to SB now, they are a dime a dozen... upto 4 per game. I have NEVER seen more than 2 power catas in 1 game, and to see 2 power catas in one game alone is very rare.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Sahne.6950]

i am EU

[Flowki.7194]

1 minute ago, Sahne.6950 said:

i am EU

I've played around 400 games this season, between S3-G3. That puts me in the average playerbase across many games, if weaver was more popular than tempest I would have seen that for sure. Last night (off peak hours) in G1, I won 3 games in a row for +16, not one of my team mates, or enemy were an ele, mostly rangers, gaurdians and scrappers.

[Sahne.6950]

3 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

(tho this is a result of the matchmaker giving me a mirror match, cuz i Q as Core.)

 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

honestly, i feel like it was quite balanced before path of fire, despite that we had way more diversity back then with all the amulets and the overpowered builds and whatnot. the reason is simple, the game was alot slower and that allowed players to react better, although i don't think it got really bad until end of dragons.

 

if you go back and watch a pvp match from 2015 or earlier on youtube, its completely different from 2020 and later. all the players don't have permanent swiftness, they aren't porting all around, there's no alacrity or quickness buffs on the group (except the occasional time warp), all the skills had higher cooldowns unless you were on a specialised build that specifically took the cooldown reduction traits, and there was significantly less instant-cast skills, and the list goes on.

 

i think that, starting around path of fire the balance team really started to get obsessed with extremely fast-paced spam-ridden combat. the concept of the node disappeared and just became a target for machinegun'ed area effects, the concept of support disappeared since its impossible to keep allies alive under most bursts (remember when one core support guardian per team was hard meta?), and so on and so forth.

 

i think its been years since i played my tempest as a full support instead of a hybrid damage support (i mean, only aura spam really matters).

 

think about how massive of a damage reduction they did over the years, carving huge chunks out of our dps, and yet players currently die faster than ever. that's because it's not about big numbers anymore, its just about rolling that spam out across the battlefield like an unstoppable train-wreck.

Edited December 16, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Flowki.7194]

8 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

 

Yes, but I have Qued a lot as core this season also, along with scepter cata.

 

No matter what class/spec I que as, ranger, core gaurd and necro a mainstays.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

On 12/15/2023 at 8:26 AM, Chaos God.1639 said:

GW2 still has one of the best pvp/wvw balance. people just like to create drama on forums

WvW and balance on the same sentence. kitten, those mushrooms were good.