So ele back being kitten....

[Sepher Yetzirah.4615]

1 hour ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

You are basically complaining how something is bad in comparison to others when you don't even have the full access. Therefore of course is invalid. 

Which part of "but, at core level at least, my second-born Warrior - to which I have access- feels much stronger, demanding far less effort, even against a DPS totem that doesn't move or fight back" didn't you understand?

Quote

In this case, core warrior generally simply performs better because random mishmash of gear and build works with core warrior than core ele.

One post you say I'm wrong, only to agree with me later? So which is it?  Metabattle has one core power build for each class. Warrior: Great. Elementalist: Good. It's not just me saying.

Perhaps it should be me telling you that if you'te not even capable of giving a coherent answer between two posts, then you stf, check your pants, for than pain in the kitten is already coming with diarrea.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Sepher Yetzirah.4615

[Warscythes.9307]

1 hour ago, Sepher Yetzirah.4615 said:

Which part of "but, at core level at least, my second-born Warrior - to which I have access- feels much stronger, demanding far less effort, even against a DPS totem that doesn't move or fight back" didn't you understand?

One post you say I'm wrong, only to agree with me later? So which is it?  Metabattle has one core power build for each class. Warrior: Great. Elementalist: Good. It's not just me saying.

Perhaps it should be me telling you that if you'te not even capable of giving a coherent answer between two posts, then you stf, check your pants, for than pain in the kitten is already coming with diarrea.

It would be better to merge the two posts into one, bit easier to read.

I am not being condescending, it is a pretty simple fact that you don't know what you are talking about. You can take it however you like. I feel your post is showing enough that I really don't need to point out too much on why.

Core warrior is better than core ele, I don't think anybody will disagree with this. The answer really is that this thread is not about underperforming builds or core builds.

Generally when people are discussing overall class balance, it is about the generally widely used builds. I think we can both agree that it is impossible to balance every single build. Hence you see the discussion here is always about cata, tempest or weaver and core ele is never discussed unless is about leveling. You should not play a core build in PvE unless you simply don't have the hero points, aka is a leveling build. Core builds should at a minimal be playable, because people should be able to level and core ele can do that just fine. It being stronger or weaker than other leveling builds does not matter because talking about balance while you do not have your full kit is pointless.

This topic is not about leveling/core builds. This is about the overall general builds with setup under the assumption you have the general tools under your disposal. Imagine you are playing a warrior without unlocking your elite skill slot, then you complain that warriors are bad. That is basically what is happening. Core builds are literally missing mechanics which elite specs have. Please do not take metabattle score as anything but a very very general metric. If core warrior is 5, does it mean it is the same as other much strong builds in open world PvE? Of course not. There is a big difference between 5 and 5. 

Basically, because core builds generally is literally missing mechanics, is not worth discussing or playing unless you have literally no choice. Unless you feel like playing without having weapon swap unlocked is acceptable, because is the same principle. 

Edited August 19, 2023 by Warscythes.9307

[Sepher Yetzirah.4615]

7 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

I am not being condescending, it is a pretty simple fact that you don't know what you are talking about. 

And you insist!

Twice you agree with the single view I shared in this the discussion, and twice you suggest I am wrong and don't know what I am talking about, while assuming to know what you don't know, but you're not being being arrogant or condescending.

Just can't help yourself, can you?

Let's tryonce last time, maybe the third time you can see through the smoke from your mind, shall we?

My point:

Quote

(..) At core level at least, my second-born Warrior feels much stronger, demanding far less effort, even against a DPS totem that doesn't move or fight back"

Your own words:

Quote

Core warrior is better than core ele, I don't think anybody will disagree with this.

Do I need to make a drawing?

I also pointed at the fact that core traitlines are 2/3 of all Elite builds. Do Ele Elite specs compensate for its core deficiency? You tell me.

Fact is, Ele is already weaker at the core or, at least, so say I, Metabattle and, one last time, in your own words:

Quote

I don't think anybody will disagree with this.

So, thank you for confirming my point. Guess I know something after all.

[Frayze.4620]

I’ll haves some of what you’re smoking 😂

[AliamRationem.5172]

55 minutes ago, Sepher Yetzirah.4615 said:

And you insist!

Twice you agree with the single view I shared in this the discussion, and twice you suggest I am wrong and don't know what I am talking about, while assuming to know what you don't know, but you're not being being arrogant or condescending.

Just can't help yourself, can you?

Let's tryonce last time, maybe the third time you can see through the smoke from your mind, shall we?

My point:

Your own words:

Do I need to make a drawing?

I also pointed at the fact that core traitlines are 2/3 of all Elite builds. Do Ele Elite specs compensate for its core deficiency? You tell me.

Fact is, Ele is already weaker at the core or, at least, so say I, Metabattle and, one last time, in your own words:

So, thank you for confirming my point. Guess I know something after all.

Congratulations!  You've won the internet!  In your quest to be right about something, you've managed to succeed where so many others have failed!  Others might have considered that your point is completely off topic and irrelevant, but not you!  You had a point to make and you made it!  Good job! 👏

[Warscythes.9307]

1 hour ago, Sepher Yetzirah.4615 said:

And you insist!

Twice you agree with the single view I shared in this the discussion, and twice you suggest I am wrong and don't know what I am talking about, while assuming to know what you don't know, but you're not being being arrogant or condescending.

Just can't help yourself, can you?

Let's tryonce last time, maybe the third time you can see through the smoke from your mind, shall we?

My point:

Your own words:

Do I need to make a drawing?

I also pointed at the fact that core traitlines are 2/3 of all Elite builds. Do Ele Elite specs compensate for its core deficiency? You tell me.

Fact is, Ele is already weaker at the core or, at least, so say I, Metabattle and, one last time, in your own words:

So, thank you for confirming my point. Guess I know something after all.

I feel I have made my point. Generally in online discussion it is quite impossible to convince other people, but rather laying out the points so others can see what is being discussed. This topic has run through its course and derailed it any longer would be in poor form. I'd suggest you read through the thread from the start and see why you were off topic. Good luck.

On topic though, I feel with the expansion in 2 days and now weapons will be granted to all classes. A lot of the balance discussion will be moot. I have absolutely no doubt there will be plenty of busted builds as I am sure you guys have seen the warhorn hitbox meme. I'd say wait until next Tuesday, play around for a couple days and then everyone can go back to crying about his/her main class/spec whatever is underpowered. Sword tempest was fun in the beta, I'd like to see how that settles.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Warscythes.9307

[Cynder.2509]

Well, be happy it's not puppy 
Kittens are nice

[Sepher Yetzirah.4615]

51 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Congratulations!  You've won the internet!  In your quest to be right about something, you've managed to succeed where so many others have failed!  Others might have considered that your point is completely off topic and irrelevant, but not you!  You had a point to make and you made it!  Good job! 👏

You are free to consider whatever you like, including what my "quest" is. And I am equally free to consider your considerations little more than arrogance, self-obsession and insecurity, i.e. BS.

Don't like it? Tought ****.

[Flowki.7194]

Ele really feels weak now, harb, hollow, willbender, soulbeast, virt, chrono.. lots of specs that put out alot more dmg for not as much complexity, or just better sustain while doing it. Scepter is dead in the water, it doenst hit hard enough for power and has 0 condi dmg, basically do more dmg with fire signet since dradon tooth is so easily dodged. Dagger main is ok, but again there are many specs doing far more/easier dmg from range and in melee, with better or more simple sustain. 

 

I've been playing alot more hammer cata, its ok in group fights but atm (could just be skill issues on my part) I find it mediocre in 1v1's. Necros as always are a nightmare, and can easily kite you on condi, as can any other class with avg level mobility, while there are a number of specs (soulbeast, hollow, willbender etc) that can easily jump in and out of melee range with their burst cds. There are also more condi builds/immob spam now, so I have found myself depending a lot more on using clensing fire, hammer cata always had issues with condi otherwise. But, this limits a slot for mobolity. So thats the deal, get kited for fun, or get condi spammed.

 

Dagger/horn temepst with FA for overlaods keeps a good stack of vuln going, its a hybrid build I've been using, does ok dmg + still gives auras. Prob is, its all melee range damage, its not HIGH dmg, which makes it even more risky (cant just get in and out like burst scepter) and it also depends on team mates to help follow up. Suffers a lot in sustain to power attacks also.. but this is the kind of builds I feel pushed into. Refuse to play staff, its horrible with bad team mates, can't kill nothing at all.

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[AliamRationem.5172]

50 minutes ago, Sepher Yetzirah.4615 said:

You are free to consider whatever you like, including what my "quest" is. And I am equally free to consider your considerations little more than arrogance, self-obsession and insecurity, i.e. BS.

Don't like it? Tought ****.

Fortunately, reality is on my side.  Pointing out that core ele is weak doesn't support the idea that ele is generally weak, which is the central debate of this thread.  Unfortunately, your opinions on that subject are uninformed.  But again, congrats on being right about core ele!  We were all pulling for you, champ! 👍

[Sepher Yetzirah.4615]

1 hour ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

I'd suggest you read through the thread from the start and see why you were off topic. Good luck.

And I'd suggest the same to you, and see why I still feel I wasn't, simply because, like the OP, and whichever his played elite traitlines are, or yours, I also have to play the piano with 25 skills and utilities, have to use 2 out of the 3 traitlines you use in your builds, and also feel pushed to replace scepter with "kitchen knives" and be engaged in close-range melee combat with a 12K healthpool class, all for a little extra DPS that is still weaker than a Warrior's.

So yeah, regardless of what you may consider on/off-topic I can relate more than enough with the OP's frustration. And if that is how bad it is at Elite level as well, then I rather invest my time in a different profession, because right now Ele seems to suck from Elite right down to its core.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Sepher Yetzirah.4615

[Sepher Yetzirah.4615]

10 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Pointing out that core ele is weak doesn't support the idea that ele is generally weak, which is the central debate of this thread.  

Do you realise how nonsensical this above statement is?!

Edited August 20, 2023 by Sepher Yetzirah.4615

[Sepher Yetzirah.4615]

15 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

We were all pulling for you, champ! 👍

Oh apologies, I didn't realise you speak for all. Apparently this forum is full of Royal Highnesses.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Sepher Yetzirah.4615

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 minute ago, Sepher Yetzirah.4615 said:

Oh apologies, I didn't realise you speak for all. Apparently this forum is full of Royal Highnesses.

Hail to the King, baby. 👑

[Sepher Yetzirah.4615]

17 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Hail to the King, baby. 👑

Sorry, disgruntled Elementalist of the last human kingdom here, so I hail Her Royal Majesty Jennah, Queen of Kryta and Regent of Ascalon.

King Doric has long passed away. Didn't you get the memo?

[AliamRationem.5172]

46 minutes ago, Sepher Yetzirah.4615 said:

And I'd suggest the same to you, and see why I still feel I wasn't, simply because, like the OP, and whichever his played elite traitlines are, or yours, I also have to play the piano with 25 skills and utilities, have to use 2 out of the 3 traitlines you use in your builds, and also feel pushed to replace scepter with "kitchen knives" and be engaged in close-range melee combat with a 12K healthpool class, all for a little extra DPS that is still weaker than a Warrior's.

So yeah, regardless of what you may consider on/off-topic I can relate more than enough with the OP's frustration. And if that is how bad it is at Elite level as well, then I rather invest my time in a different profession, because right now Ele seems to suck from Elite right down to its core.

Yeah, it's terrible at the elite level.  That's why 3 out of 10 of the top DPS benchmarks listed in snowcrows are elementalist builds - more than any other class.  That's why I can be competitive in fractal CMs using a build that probably isn't even in the top 5 for elementalist.  It's super flimsy, too, which is why I can solo HoT champions and bounties in full glass gear on a melee build.  Practically unplayable for sure.

Maybe instead of using your feefees and your "extensive" knowledge of how bad core elementalist is to determine that the class is garbage overall, you might listen to what others in this thread are saying.  If you have specific issues with the class (for example, those discussing the recent PvP nerfs to scepter and signets), that's legitimate.  Simply saying the class is terrible and vaguely alluding to how other classes are better is, like you've been told, uninformed.

[Sepher Yetzirah.4615]

27 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Maybe instead of using your feefees and your "extensive" knowledge of how bad core elementalist is to determine that the class is garbage overall

Only I didn't, did I? I spoke of core experience only that related to the OP's while I admitted, from my very first comment, that I haven't tried the elite specs. All this BS you and your pal insist in writing are just fruit of your presumptuous little heads making... presumptions.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Sepher Yetzirah.4615

[Sepher Yetzirah.4615]

@AliamRationem.5172 Recognise these words?

Quote

It's not that bad.  It just isn't where it should be considering how much easier and more useful and versatile most other classes are.   It doesn't feel great being a selfish melee DPS with a slew of disadvantages and not even great DPS to show for it.  It can be competitive and it's fun to play.  That's about the best you can say about it.

Some people change their speech, one moment saying one thing, the next saying the very opposite. Must be the wind... or gases.

p.s. sounds like life has improved much for Eles in the last 12 months.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Sepher Yetzirah.4615

[AliamRationem.5172]

31 minutes ago, Sepher Yetzirah.4615 said:

Only I didn't, did I? I spoke of core experience only that related to the OP's while I admitted, from my very first comment, that I haven't tried the elite specs. All this BS you and your pal insist in writing are just fruit of your presumptuous little heads making... presumptions.

Okay, I'll try and answer in good faith, since you truly don't seem understand why you're catching flak here.  The elite spec design makes it nearly impossible for core specs to be competitive.  For this reason core specs provide no context by which one may judge the state of the class as a whole.  That's why you're being told that a comparison of core ele to core warrior isn't relevant and why presuming to speak on the state of the class when you haven't played the elite specs results in criticism.  Nobody plays core specs at max level.  So, while core ele may be weak, weaver, catalyst, and tempest are not and all of these specs are viable at endgame.  This is the same for all other classes as well.

[Sepher Yetzirah.4615]

31 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Okay, I'll try and answer in good faith, since you truly don't seem understand why you're catching flak here. 

Not such a good start,  to try to answer in good faith, followed immediately by a suggestion that I am the one not understanding something.

Try harder or - you know - drop the good faith BS.

Quote

The elite spec design makes it nearly impossible for core specs to be competitive. 

Never my point. What on earth makes you think I ever suggested comparing Core with Elite specs or even making Core as competitive as Elite? If you don't think this, what's your point?

Quote

For this reason core specs provide no context by which one may judge the state of the class as a whole. 

This? Considering both the OP and even you, 12 months ago, described your experiences with the Elite specs in very similar terms to my experience with core, I agree to disagree.

Quote

That's why you're being told that a comparison of core ele to core warrior isn't relevant...

I would agree, if the expressed experiences and class deficiencies, both by the OP now and yourself 12 months ago, were very different from mine. As it happens, and on the contrary, they are very similar.

Quote

and why presuming to speak on the state of the class when you haven't played the elite specs results in criticism. 

I never spoke on the state of the class, never mind presumed. I spoke on the state of the class "at core level" and made that very clear.

Quote

Nobody plays core specs at max level.  So, while core ele may be weak, weaver, catalyst, and tempest are not and all of these specs are viable at endgame. 

Not what you said 12 months ago about Elementalists, in relation to other classes. Again, I am not and have never compared Elite to Core.

Do you know what this comes down to? Two Elite spec players backtracking on what is their own experience, feeling somehow threatned by and needing to contradict a Core Build player's opinion, despite reflecting their own, in a quest for self-assurance.

You know, it makes you look very insecure, far from the kind of experienced Elite player whose opinion I would personally value much, before deciding in which profession I will invest.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Sepher Yetzirah.4615

[Exzen.2976]

This thread appears to be hijacked into a 2 person argument 😅

Realistically though, I think it comes down to this.

Is ele still really good in the right hands? Yes, absolutely. 

Does ele require more effort to be effective than most other classes? Yes, although this heavily depends on the build. Due to the amount of options ele has, it tends to have a high skill floor and ceiling.

Should ele be buffed to ensure that everyone that picks up ele no matter what their skill level/experience can be good on it, ignoring how op it would be in the hands of a skilled player? No

If we do that, then we get into a situation where you get 5 man ele teams in monthly ATs in sPvP and where ele becomes the BIS choice for ALL the DPS roles in high end PVE content. Both of these things have happened in the past (although it has been a while since staff ele kicked butt in PVE). This inevitably leads to large amounts of ele nerfs and inevitably leads to several nerfs to the wrong things. 

If people ask for buffs again to ele, I guarantee we'll get harsher nerfs in the next balance patch. Ele really doesn't need buffs overall right now. There are absolutely some underperforming traits/weapons etc that could use some love (although this is true for every class) - but to say ele is kitten now is just not true.

At this point I expect the only way to ensure that everyone can be good on ele, and feel happy about it, would be a complete ele redesign. 

Edited August 20, 2023 by Exzen.2976

[Bladestrom.6425]

16 minutes ago, Exzen.2976 said:

This thread appears to be hijacked into a 2 person argument 😅

Realistically though, I think it comes down to this.

Is ele still really good in the right hands? Yes, absolutely. 

Does ele require more effort to be effective than most other classes? Yes, although this heavily depends on the build. Due to the amount of options ele has, it tends to have a high skill floor and ceiling.

Should ele be buffed to ensure that everyone that picks up ele no matter what their skill level/experience can be good on it, ignoring how op it would be in the hands of a skilled player? No

If we do that, then we get into a situation where you get 5 man ele teams in monthly ATs in sPvP and where ele becomes the BIS choice for the DPS roles in high end PVE content. Both of these things have happened in the past (although it has been a while since staff ele kicked butt in PVE). This inevitably leads to large amounts of ele nerfs and inevitably leads to several nerfs to the wrong things. 

agree with all of above

If people ask for buffs again to ele, I guarantee we'll get harsher nerfs in the next balance patch. Ele really doesn't need buffs overall right now. There are absolutely some underperforming traits/weapons etc that could use some love (although this is true for every class) - but to say ele is kitten now is just not true.

 

The issue isn't ele is undeforming the issue was the incompetent set of last 3 patches which pushed quite a lot of  non meta builds below a line where they became entirely unviable, all side effects of crude attempts to quickly hack around the cata situation.  Giving aura to signets without foreseeing the impact on cata was just an incredible lack of insight.  Then rather than rolling back they hacked away at signet, written to stone, dragon tooth, all of which triggers a huge amount of needless collateral damage.  If they wanted to buff written in stone/signets, all they had to do was reduce the cooldown reduction by a couple seconds, trivial change, low impact, easily measurable.

 

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563

[AliamRationem.5172]

6 hours ago, Sepher Yetzirah.4615 said:

Not such a good start,  to try to answer in good faith, followed immediately by a suggestion that I am the one not understanding something.

Try harder or - you know - drop the good faith BS.

Never my point. What on earth makes you think I ever suggested comparing Core with Elite specs or even making Core as competitive as Elite? If you don't think this, what's your point?

This? Considering both the OP and even you, 12 months ago, described your experiences with the Elite specs in very similar terms to my experience with core, I agree to disagree.

I would agree, if the expressed experiences and class deficiencies, both by the OP now and yourself 12 months ago, were very different from mine. As it happens, and on the contrary, they are very similar.

I never spoke on the state of the class, never mind presumed. I spoke on the state of the class "at core level" and made that very clear.

Not what you said 12 months ago about Elementalists, in relation to other classes. Again, I am not and have never compared Elite to Core.

Do you know what this comes down to? Two Elite spec players backtracking on what is their own experience, feeling somehow threatned by and needing to contradict a Core Build player's opinion, despite reflecting their own, in a quest for self-assurance.

You know, it makes you look very insecure, far from the kind of experienced Elite player whose opinion I would personally value much, before deciding in which profession I will invest.

Now go research patch notes 12 months ago to today and the mystery will be solved.  In any event, you seem to lack the basic understanding to engage in any meaningful discussion on the subject.  So I'll stop wasting my time.  Bye!

[bluberblasen.9684]

2 hours ago, Exzen.2976 said:

This thread appears to be hijacked into a 2 person argument 😅

Realistically though, I think it comes down to this.

Is ele still really good in the right hands? Yes, absolutely. 

Does ele require more effort to be effective than most other classes? Yes, although this heavily depends on the build. Due to the amount of options ele has, it tends to have a high skill floor and ceiling.

Should ele be buffed to ensure that everyone that picks up ele no matter what their skill level/experience can be good on it, ignoring how op it would be in the hands of a skilled player? No

If we do that, then we get into a situation where you get 5 man ele teams in monthly ATs in sPvP and where ele becomes the BIS choice for ALL the DPS roles in high end PVE content. Both of these things have happened in the past (although it has been a while since staff ele kicked butt in PVE). This inevitably leads to large amounts of ele nerfs and inevitably leads to several nerfs to the wrong things. 

If people ask for buffs again to ele, I guarantee we'll get harsher nerfs in the next balance patch. Ele really doesn't need buffs overall right now. There are absolutely some underperforming traits/weapons etc that could use some love (although this is true for every class) - but to say ele is kitten now is just not true.

At this point I expect the only way to ensure that everyone can be good on ele, and feel happy about it, would be a complete ele redesign. 

Just remove class stacking in pvp... 😉

[Sepher Yetzirah.4615]

3 hours ago, Exzen.2976 said:

This thread appears to be hijacked into a 2 person argument 😅

Three actually, this not even counting the OP, who started it. 😝 One left earlier. Another insists, from his high mount, I lack even basic understanding, so I won't even bother to reply.

Most of what you said I alse agree, but I still one reservation here:

Quote

Should ele be buffed to ensure that everyone that picks up ele no matter what their skill level/experience can be good on it, ignoring how op it would be in the hands of a skilled player? No

IMO, not to the point of ignoring how op it would be, again, at least at core level, stronger than it is, ensuring it to be at least in par with any other class, across the spectrum of comparable builds, Elites included, and if not a little stronger even, especially if I am to give any credit to the OP, and in @AliamRationem.5172 own words, 12 months ago, - I believe - before some patches others felt nerfing as well:

Quote

It just isn't where it should be considering how much easier and more useful and versatile most other classes are.   It doesn't feel great being a selfish melee DPS with a slew of disadvantages and not even great DPS to show for it. 

Whether you or others here disagree with him, when it comes to Elite traitlines, in combination with core ones, you and other Elite spec players be the judge. I am listening and, right now, I read diverging opinons.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Sepher Yetzirah.4615