So ele back being kitten....

[Sepher Yetzirah.4615]

32 minutes ago, bluberblasen.9684 said:

Just remove class stacking in pvp... 😉

Well, precisely. If the problem is top dmg dealers class stacking in PvP, there is always that option, to limit the number of members of any class in such groups, without messing up class balance.

Would make much more sense, in my mind.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Sepher Yetzirah.4615

[Exzen.2976]

34 minutes ago, bluberblasen.9684 said:

Just remove class stacking in pvp... 😉

But then queues would never pop, since everyone will be trying to queue on ele 😉

[Sepher Yetzirah.4615]

16 minutes ago, Exzen.2976 said:

But then queues would never pop, since everyone will be trying to queue on ele 😉

... Or they l'd be swapping classes to jump the queue. Their choice.

[Arheundel.6451]

4 hours ago, Exzen.2976 said:

This thread appears to be hijacked into a 2 person argument 😅

Realistically though, I think it comes down to this.

Is ele still really good in the right hands? Yes, absolutely. 

Does ele require more effort to be effective than most other classes? Yes, although this heavily depends on the build. Due to the amount of options ele has, it tends to have a high skill floor and ceiling.

Should ele be buffed to ensure that everyone that picks up ele no matter what their skill level/experience can be good on it, ignoring how op it would be in the hands of a skilled player? No

If we do that, then we get into a situation where you get 5 man ele teams in monthly ATs in sPvP and where ele becomes the BIS choice for ALL the DPS roles in high end PVE content. Both of these things have happened in the past (although it has been a while since staff ele kicked butt in PVE). This inevitably leads to large amounts of ele nerfs and inevitably leads to several nerfs to the wrong things. 

If people ask for buffs again to ele, I guarantee we'll get harsher nerfs in the next balance patch. Ele really doesn't need buffs overall right now. There are absolutely some underperforming traits/weapons etc that could use some love (although this is true for every class) - but to say ele is kitten now is just not true.

At this point I expect the only way to ensure that everyone can be good on ele, and feel happy about it, would be a complete ele redesign. 

Maybe we should also make other professions good only in the right hands? Let's stop patronizing when people expect to have results with minimum effort..then have the face to tell others to learn to play as "ele is good in the right hands"

[Exzen.2976]

Just now, Arheundel.6451 said:

Maybe we should also make other professions good only in the right hands? Let's stop patronizing when people expect to have results with minimum effort..then have the face to tell others to learn to play as "ele is good in the right hands"

I'm not patronising anyone, or at least not trying to. I'm stating my opinion, which I don't think anyone is disagreeing with? 

I did also state that an ele rework would be the only way to have it so you could get results with minimum effort without affecting sPvP, WvW or pve benchmarks etc.

I fully appreciate it must be frustrating for players who are not getting good results on it. I'm not saying that its right and to "git gud", it's just kinda how it is. 

Without a full rework to either ele OR to ALL the other classes (both of which i think are incredibly unlikely), ele balance is always going to be a divisive issue. 

I'm just keen not to have ele buffed again when it will inevitably be nerfed in the following patch - probably targeting the wrong things as per usual. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Maybe we should also make other professions good only in the right hands? Let's stop patronizing when people expect to have results with minimum effort..then have the face to tell others to learn to play as "ele is good in the right hands"

It's always going to be an issue trying to strike the right balance between effort and reward.  As we saw a year ago with the "mech wars 2" debacle, the community is always going to go for low effort with high reward where it's offered with the predictable result that any other spec then feels unrewarding to play.

The take away there is that high effort must be rewarded, but not to the point where it dominates the meta.  Toward that end, I think ele is in a pretty good spot in PvE.  It's at or near the top on multiple builds, which is arguably where it should be.  At the same time, it isn't pushing everything else out of the meta.

That doesn't mean there aren't areas of opportunity.  I would personally like to see underperforming variants brought up a little.  Condi sword, staff and dagger weaver builds, for example.

[ZolracAtrox.2908]

On 8/20/2023 at 8:59 AM, AliamRationem.5172 said:

It's always going to be an issue trying to strike the right balance between effort and reward.  As we saw a year ago with the "mech wars 2" debacle, the community is always going to go for low effort with high reward where it's offered with the predictable result that any other spec then feels unrewarding to play.

The take away there is that high effort must be rewarded, but not to the point where it dominates the meta.  Toward that end, I think ele is in a pretty good spot in PvE.  It's at or near the top on multiple builds, which is arguably where it should be.  At the same time, it isn't pushing everything else out of the meta.

That doesn't mean there aren't areas of opportunity.  I would personally like to see underperforming variants brought up a little.  Condi sword, staff and dagger weaver builds, for example.

You missed the part where Cata was not high effort, at least for pvp.

And as for pve, for higher effort dps should be condi core engi p/p full kits

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 hours ago, ZolracAtrox.2908 said:

You missed the part where Cata was not high effort, at least for pvp.

And as for pve, for higher effort dps should be condi core engi p/p full kits

True on both counts.  I did say it would always be an issue trying to strike the right balance and that there are areas of opportunity.  The point still stands, however, that if we're assessing the state of ele in general it's probably safe to say that it isn't "kitten".

[Arheundel.6451]

On 8/20/2023 at 2:57 PM, Exzen.2976 said:

I'm not patronising anyone, or at least not trying to. I'm stating my opinion, which I don't think anyone is disagreeing with? 

I did also state that an ele rework would be the only way to have it so you could get results with minimum effort without affecting sPvP, WvW or pve benchmarks etc.

I fully appreciate it must be frustrating for players who are not getting good results on it. I'm not saying that its right and to "git gud", it's just kinda how it is. 

Without a full rework to either ele OR to ALL the other classes (both of which i think are incredibly unlikely), ele balance is always going to be a divisive issue. 

I'm just keen not to have ele buffed again when it will inevitably be nerfed in the following patch - probably targeting the wrong things as per usual. 

I heard this argument before and my question remains to this day:  WHY?

People on other professions can literally roll their face in the mud and come on top while kiting/healing all kittening day and pew-pew from safe 900/1200, most times with attacks devoid of any dodgeable animations EX.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ghastly_Claws

All balanced arguments aside, this lack of cohesion between professions is not typical. Neither should be tolerated and If you can't bother to redesign anything, then bring ele to a certain level compared to other professions and....tell people who whine to shove it where the sun doesn't shine.

Nobody wants a balance where 5 eles teams dominate everything but...I think we can reach a proper medium without butchering weapon skills

P.S

And yes...it's kittening frustrating to play due to the constant chasing you have to do to apply pressure, everything and his cousin just speedy Gonzales around map while pewpew from a safe distance...it's kitten gameplay

I am just glad that I started a 2nd main eons ago once I realized the direction ele was heading...Otherwise I would have quit years ago even before PoF Launch

Edited August 23, 2023 by Arheundel.6451

[Stallic.2397]

On 8/20/2023 at 2:24 AM, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

The issue isn't ele is undeforming the issue was the incompetent set of last 3 patches which pushed quite a lot of  non meta builds below a line where they became entirely unviable, all side effects of crude attempts to quickly hack around the cata situation.  Giving aura to signets without foreseeing the impact on cata was just an incredible lack of insight.  Then rather than rolling back they hacked away at signet, written to stone, dragon tooth, all of which triggers a huge amount of needless collateral damage.  If they wanted to buff written in stone/signets, all they had to do was reduce the cooldown reduction by a couple seconds, trivial change, low impact, easily measurable.

 

 

This, this and more of this. 

Anet doesn't know how to balance Ele which is why it's in the predicament it's in. Not cause it's complicated, not cause of lack of ideas, but because of negligence 

Which in real-world professions, negligence is a legal offense. But Anet is just a group of techs so  wgaf

Edited August 23, 2023 by Stallic.2397

[Sporks.4395]

I'm shocked at how many people think that core warrior is better than core ele. Core warrior's weapon mastery did not make NEARLY as many gains as core ele did. Hammer, sword, and warhorn are insane for core ele. Warrior got what... daggers? Not a bad weapon to get, but nothing compared to what core ele got. 

 

[RazieL.5684]

1 hour ago, Sporks.4395 said:

I'm shocked at how many people think that core warrior is better than core ele. Core warrior's weapon mastery did not make NEARLY as many gains as core ele did. Hammer, sword, and warhorn are insane for core ele. Warrior got what... daggers? Not a bad weapon to get, but nothing compared to what core ele got. 

 

i'm shocked how many people think that core ele is better than core warrior. Core ele's weapon mastery did not make NEARLY as many gains as core warrior did. Dagger, torch and pistol are insane for core warrior. Ele got what... warhorn? Not a bad weapon to get, but nothing compared to what core warrior got.

 

i love doing that to people's arguments that are based on literally nothing so i just turn it around and it rings 100% truth as well... what did ele get? warhorn? is ok, not great not terrible 3.6

hammer? sounds great to have a weapon based on blasting fields and literally 0 fields to blast, no weapon skill is a field and you don't have cata spheres to make fields sooooo you do what exactly?...

sword? sword, same as hammer having being designed around a class mechanic (unlike warriors weapons which you can pretty much use with core effectively) with long cds (air 2 is 15 sec while guard sword 2 is 8 sec, instant cast and AoE LUL) and that you don't have access to the weaver combo skills making it significantly worse than it was meant on creation...

meanwhile dagger warriors still crit 10k breaching strikes in wvw LUL

[Caffynated.5713]

On 8/18/2023 at 6:46 AM, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

I get the complaints about ele (cata scepter) in pvp etc, but most of detractors couldn't note what's wrong actually and just wrap all issues behind anecdotal ones.
Ele does no "high" damage, nor has "high" defense per skill ; everything is about stacking a lot of modifiers and spells; which is part of the high learning curve and disparity of skill amoung eles.
Like the good old "dragon's tooth"; sure the animation is worrying for the target and is part of the idea, but the skill itself didn't deal huge damage, it was all about air/fresh air modifiers, stack of vulnerability, gale etc.

I can agree ele could be hard to balance, but nerfing every skills, and multiply modifiers /bonus/boon spam in all traitlanes to compensate (like cata) is the  worst solution.

The problem with Cata was the way it vomited every boon under the sun with no effort and no sacrifice. 

Instead of targeting the nerfs to bring Cata in line, they gutted everything else. It's 2013 all over again. Cleric amulet ele with +100% boon duration was overpowered. Change the amulet to any other amulet and the runes to any other runes and Ele was mid at best, even with the exact same build everywhere else. They nerfed cantrips, dagger, scepter, staff, fire, air, and arcane, but didn't touch the reason bunker ele was strong. It would have been simple to reduce healing contribution on scepter/dagger skills. Valk ele wasn't strong. It couldn't heal enough. You needed Cleric to be unkillable. 

Now they've done it again. They kitten the entire class to get Cata under control and didn't address why Cata was overpowered. Eventually, years from now, they'll buff ele again, and Cata will be broken again because they didn't fix why it was overpowered in the first place. 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Caffynated.5713

[Stallic.2397]

And they have the audacity to ask for more money... Lol