Rune changes

[Loctar.3987]

I don't understand the whole thing. I made legacy runes because I play all professions and change builds a lot, I like to try things out. Now I'm in a situation where I have practically all my builds broken and for my investment in leg. runes I only got back three new items which in most cases don't even make up for the missing effect of the previous full buff. On top of that, this item is locked on the character when used so I have to reinvest a lot of resources to get all the characters and their builds at least partially working again. How someone could even think of this and for what purpose is really a mystery to me.

[vandrefalk.6823]

Just now, Loctar.3987 said:

I don't understand the whole thing. I made legacy runes because I play all professions and change builds a lot, I like to try things out. Now I'm in a situation where I have practically all my builds broken and for my investment in leg. runes I only got back three new items which in most cases don't even make up for the missing effect of the previous full buff. On top of that, this item is locked on the character when used so I have to reinvest a lot of resources to get all the characters and their builds at least partially working again. How someone could even think of this and for what purpose is really a mystery to me.

All your characters over level 60 get 3 relics each.

Those relic containers are account bound, but if you open them you get soulbound relics.

Say you have 12 characters, you will have a total of 36 relics to freely distribute among your characters. And I'm guessing you will have probably on average 2-3 builds per character... is this REALLY such a big issue still?

[Loctar.3987]

23 minutes ago, Dondarrion.2748 said:

All your characters over level 60 get 3 relics each.

Those relic containers are account bound, but if you open them you get soulbound relics.

Say you have 12 characters, you will have a total of 36 relics to freely distribute among your characters. And I'm guessing you will have probably on average 2-3 builds per character... is this REALLY such a big issue still?

I only got three relics on the first character I logged onto. Nothing on the others, probably a bug. And yes it's still a problem for me. As I wrote before, I like to try and generally have fun with the game. That's why I've been putting effort into leg. gear so I don't have a million things I use once and then they're useless. I have at least 5 builds on each profession. Two on pve and 3 on wvw. So 36 relics is really enough for people who don't change builds that much. You didn't seem to be intentional about the lack of many buffs that aren't among the relics we got. So yes, it REALLY is that much of a problem for me.

[vandrefalk.6823]

2 minutes ago, Loctar.3987 said:

I only got three relics on the first character I logged onto. Nothing on the others, probably a bug. And yes it's still a problem for me. As I wrote before, I like to try and generally have fun with the game. That's why I've been putting effort into leg. gear so I don't have a million things I use once and then they're useless. I have at least 5 builds on each profession. Two on pve and 3 on wvw. So 36 relics is really enough for people who don't change builds that much. You didn't seem to be intentional about the lack of many buffs that aren't among the relics we got. So yes, it REALLY is that much of a problem for me.

You should get 3 relics on each char above level 60, so see if they arrive in the mail next time you login on those.

[Crowfang.8529]

They should have split the effects from the 6th slot and let the relics effects unchanged. And then balance later. Actually we're screwed for the next months. GGWP.

[Zebulon.1850]

So there's like a million threads about relics everywhere, but since this one is in the SotO discussion area, I'll put this here.

What's truly confusing for me is that someone (probably multiple) thought it would be a good idea to delete so many favorite runes/relics without so much as an explanation or reason for why this is. If it's for balance say that and explain it, instead of just claiming it's for streamlining what stats/bonus you want.

Anet really shouldn't be surprised so many people are upset by this change. I have quite a few niche/fun builds that are gone without any explanation.

Anyway, I hope they give us some communication for this, it's definitely the worst part of this expansion for me. And I'm sure for many other folks as well.

I've been playing GW2 for 10+ years now, and there's no other game quite like it, so it's really sad when changes like this happen.

@Rubi Bayer.8493 Appreciate everything you all do, it would be awesome to hear some response to the feedback.

[Ashen.2907]

10 hours ago, ShadowInTheVoid.9183 said:

Actually, I think/hope this was intentional. That 5% damage >90% health was far too much of a go to that nobody was going to pick anything else. I would hope it leads to power builds using more varied choices. Relic of the Thief and Relic of Fireworks are going to be a good choices for a lot of people.

I wish they had kept a max health boost option, especially for the low health classes but the ones with pet bonuses are far more of a shame. Maybe they wasn't the best in high end content but they were fun to use in PvE and added a bit of character.

 

For the vast majority of players that +damage above 90% health from Scholar would be one of the worst options available. Thief Relic is superior (now) for sustained DPS. I liked Scholar for the fun of massive alpha strikes at the beginning of a combat.

[Wild.1705]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 I think this may be a learning opportunity for you. 

I have found much engagement from your posts on game balance. Specifically posts using your understanding of complex systems theory as a model for game balance. Complex systems theory and other posts you have you have created in the past show that you are an extremely intelligent individual. However, there are different types of intelligence.

Howard Gardner's Theory of multiple intelligences suggests that there are 8 types of intelligence. From what I have read from you in the past, you clearly have logical-mathematical intelligence.

I think you may lack a healthy degree of interpersonal intelligence. The ability to relate to what others are felling and sensitivity to their feelings. Much of what is voiced in this thread seems to have escaped you.

From an interpersonal perspective you do not see this

20 hours ago, Euclid.7042 said:

Darn, my daughter absolutely loved her rock dog and it always helped her with aggro since she's still learning the ropes. She's going to be so disappointed when she logs in tomorrow. Please bring the summoned pets back!

and end your post with this.

12 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

most of the rune effects we had before were absolute trash so, coupled with the fact that before you couldn't choose your stats, these are an overall an improvement of the game.

 

[Sage.9458]

21 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

Nope. Beside losing the 25% movement speed, the boons do not occur every 20 sec while on combat, but when using  skill CD higher than 20 secs. It is basically obsolete.

This is not a one off. There were tons of runes with various interesting and key effects. All gone in favor of… 5% strike damage, or another similar bull kitten stat.

I agree.

All of them are pretty useless.

Cd ruin them

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

5 hours ago, Wild.1705 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 I think this may be a learning opportunity for you. 

I have found much engagement from your posts on game balance. Specifically posts using your understanding of complex systems theory as a model for game balance. Complex systems theory and other posts you have you have created in the past show that you are an extremely intelligent individual. However, there are different types of intelligence.

Howard Gardner's Theory of multiple intelligences suggests that there are 8 types of intelligence. From what I have read from you in the past, you clearly have logical-mathematical intelligence.

I think you may lack a healthy degree of interpersonal intelligence. The ability to relate to what others are felling and sensitivity to their feelings. Much of what is voiced in this thread seems to have escaped you.

From an interpersonal perspective you do not see this

and end your post with this.

 

I don't lack interpersonal intelligence, I in fact help run with a partner a small company. Of course, you don't know me so how could you talk about my intelligence with regards to my interpersonal relationships.

But on to actually talking about a subject with substance...this quote here : 

Darn, my daughter absolutely loved her rock dog and it always helped her with aggro since she's still learning the ropes. She's going to be so disappointed when she logs in tomorrow. Please bring the summoned pets back!

This is exactly the kind of thing that the game is about...not specifically summons or rock dogs, but the fact that out in the space of possibilities, there exists the option for players to choose things that they will find uses for. If you have read anything I've ever wrote, which it seems like you have... this has always been my hardest stance, hardest belief, and the thing that I think is fundamental to not just this games design but to the universe as it's constructed based on the research that I did. The universe...this game is based on exploration of all possibilities, where all possibilities are manifested over the coarse of it's evolution...the evolution is the playing of the game by human players. So a comment like this makes perfect sense to me.

But the former rune system however, constricted severely, the possibility space...and that was a simple arithmetic. The rock dog being useful to someone out there, is not justification to keep that old and broken system.

However, the summons is a good idea (summon a pet when you use an elite skill or heal skill maybe?) And if A-net has sense, this is what they would do when they add them into relics (to make summons more accessible and designed in such a way to allow for more possibilities) which is always the end goal : More exploration of the game's possibility space.

One other thing I'll mention is that when I said "most runes are trash" I was informally referring to the fact that majority of runes were +% modifiers, runes that have incredibly long cooldowns and poorly designed in which their effects are either insubstantial, or can't even be effectively used properly because of their overly restrictive nature (some effects trigger upon entering combat, which then wastes the skill because you usually enter combat before an enemy actually gets into range lol!)

Long story short : You don't really understand me if you think that I agree with the absence of 60 runes, even if it's temporary... However A-net did say they will roll out the rest over the year, and therefor this complaining is transient. If you want to talk interpersonal relationships, consider the charitable interpretation of ANET's side of this story.

If you want real diversity (and by proxy true balance in the game) then this relic system is the first step. The transition will be rough...many people won't get it but in the end it will be much healthier for the game, so long as they continue to evaluate the mechanics of the game to make sure their designs are not uninteresting %modifiers, but actual mechanics that introduce novel new ways to play the game. If you ever notice anything i've also ever said, part of it is that "perfect balance is pointless" because i proved that it's impossible to achieve in the way humans try to do it. So obviously if you see effects that are "over balanced" like generic modifiers this is a symptom of generally speaking, players trying to impose this "equalization balancing" that people think is a thing when its not. Don't pin a stance on me that ive never held please thanks.

Edited August 24, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Lyralia.2945]

I have like 20 characters. Many of those had been set up with 3-4 armor sets all with superior runes, many of those not even covered by the new system.

Lets use a commonly used rune though as an example. Many of them did have a speed rune build on one of those sets of armour because movement is important in wvw sometimes to catch opponents, outrun zergs, etc.

So I'd be expected to spend 10-15 gold per character that uses that set just to get my speed rune build back to where it was on those because the relics appear to be soulbound (on the trading post, they show as soulbound on use).

Do the math. That is a significant investment to expect of a person to ... just be back where they were before a tragically misguided change. I don't go grind out gold. I log in, fight people and log off. I get some gold but I often spend it on other things such as gems (or helping set friends up who are new to the game, who I now feel bad for inviting to the game).

If you assume each relic to be about 10-15 gold and average out the gear sets to be 4 per character then that is (20x4) x 10 (a lowball). To have what I already had.

Basically, Anet stole a ton of monetary value from me and I am not happy about it and you shouldn't be either, whether you think relic system is good or not.

It would have been simple to just detect 6 runes and give a relic per 6th superior rune. They didn't want that though, they were fine with stealing.

 

It is easier to just do something else with my time and money. I keep logging on, looking at all the work I would have to do to fix this all and just logging back off because I value my time more than this, lol. I'm just baffled by these changes. I'd love to have fun fights with people but I don't want to do that without that bonus that was crucial to many of those builds (some of which do not exist now) and I do not feel like I should have to grind out legendary junk suddenly or pick only a few characters and builds or spend so much effort just to regain what I lost for no reason.

 

Edit: Also keep in mind some of the wvw builds used pretty expensive runes that were only expensive due to the 6th bonus anyway. So more value lost as some of those have no value now.

I feel like Anet needs to have some introspection.. think.. "are we the baddies?" and then make things right and be more fair to people. Many players feel robbed by these changes (whether they tended to use legendary stuff or not) and for very good reason.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Sahfur.5612

[ixon.2496]

4 minutes ago, Sahfur.5612 said:

It would have been simple to just detect 6 runes and give a relic per 6th superior rune. They didn't want that though, they were fine with stealing.

Honestly I'd even have settled with converting 6 runes to account bound/soul bound  in exchange for the corresponding relic

[Loctar.3987]

53 minutes ago, Sahfur.5612 said:

I have like 20 characters. Many of those had been set up with 3-4 armor sets all with superior runes, many of those not even covered by the new system.

Lets use a commonly used rune though as an example. Many of them did have a speed rune build on one of those sets of armour because movement is important in wvw sometimes to catch opponents, outrun zergs, etc.

So I'd be expected to spend 10-15 gold per character that uses that set just to get my speed rune build back to where it was on those because the relics appear to be soulbound (on the trading post, they show as soulbound on use).

Do the math. That is a significant investment to expect of a person to ... just be back where they were before a tragically misguided change. I don't go grind out gold. I log in, fight people and log off. I get some gold but I often spend it on other things such as gems (or helping set friends up who are new to the game, who I now feel bad for inviting to the game).

If you assume each relic to be about 10-15 gold and average out the gear sets to be 4 per character then that is (20x4) x 10 (a lowball). To have what I already had.

Basically, Anet stole a ton of monetary value from me and I am not happy about it and you shouldn't be either, whether you think relic system is good or not.

It would have been simple to just detect 6 runes and give a relic per 6th superior rune. They didn't want that though, they were fine with stealing.

 

It is easier to just do something else with my time and money. I keep logging on, looking at all the work I would have to do to fix this all and just logging back off because I value my time more than this, lol. I'm just baffled by these changes. I'd love to have fun fights with people but I don't want to do that without that bonus that was crucial to many of those builds (some of which do not exist now) and I do not feel like I should have to grind out legendary junk suddenly or pick only a few characters and builds or spend so much effort just to regain what I lost for no reason.

 

Edit: Also keep in mind some of the wvw builds used pretty expensive runes that were only expensive due to the 6th bonus anyway. So more value lost as some of those have no value now.

I feel like Anet needs to have some introspection.. think.. "are we the baddies?" and then make things right and be more fair to people. Many players feel robbed by these changes (whether they tended to use legendary stuff or not) and for very good reason.

That's exactly how I feel. Hundreds of hours of work were taken away from me and instead of an adequate equivalent compensation I was slapped in the face. Yesterday I turned the game on, looked at the mess for a while, the full inventory of pointless relics, and turned the game off again with a bitter taste. After more than a decade, someone has managed to frustrate my gw to the point that I have no desire to play it. Which after all they've done to wvw I no longer believe is possible to happen

[WareWolf.6951]

I personally love the idea of splitting up the "effect" from the "stats" on the runes. I understand that there were some sets that ran nth slot bonus's that were desired, but the stats did not align with the rest of the character build... This is conceptually easy for anyone that has played the game and tinkers with builds to grasp... 

What I personally dislike and feel like ArenaNet dropped the ball on was not just verbatim moving every set's bonus as it stands today into the new relics. I feel like at some point this was the plan, given that the names of the relics even match the names of the rune sets. This would have required almost zero additional coding, balancing, testing, or creativity, and they could have just given us all a relic from the equipped sets we have and called it day. At launch, they would have patted themselves on the back that they delivered new flexibility in our builds and opened the door for new relics with new features and names that do not mimic the runes we have today. If they truly wanted to win points with their base, toss one or two of those relic chests at everyone so they can get a feel for the new and original relic offerings - a token to help us all break out of our comfort zones. 

Instead, we got a subset of the existing rune bonuses as relics in name / spirit only, so not only do we have less choices, but we have completely lost some of the functionality that we have had for over a decade with the game. Personally, I have been impacted because I used the summons such as Runes of the Ogre (Rock Dog summon) on a few sets, and otherwise ran Runes of the Pack (Boon sharing) and Travelers (permanent speed buff) on gear for every one of my characters since the game came into existence 11 years ago.

None of my sets were brought into the new system with the launch choices. Some of you may say "well they may add those back!" - sure, I'll grant you the same foresight that any of us have for what is to come. However, I already paid for the bonusses I had, wanted, and worked into my builds and playstyle, and these new ones should they offer the same functionality I lost, will not be free. Additionally, it seems that the new relics are very heavily in favor of being tied to triggers, in particular when using your elite skill. The Rock Dog was essentially a permanent pet unless it died - no need to trigger something and its life was not tied to the cooldown of my elite skills. For a ranger, this was particularly fun to truly be a Beastmaster with multiple pets and fits into the culture and customization that GuildWars has presented to those of us that have played since GW1 was in launched.

Personally, I feel like a product or project owner already saw this feedback coming, which is why rather than truly make it right with the player-base which would likely have been an expensive shift for the release, they offered all of us three of those relic choice chests per character over 60 - knowing we would need to experiment to try and find suitable replacements for the functionality we lost. Our reactions to the changes should not be a surprise, and in fact could easily have been measured by reviewing the application database from multiple perspectives: What are the top equip rune sets? What rune sets are sold the most in the trade system? Data driven decisions are the next best thing you can do outside of polling your consumers, and ArenaNet owns the data so it's cheap and easy to execute business intelligence. Want to see some easy to measure external data? Throw an intern at a few sites like metabattle and ask them to plot out the runes from the top-rated builds - it should only take an afternoon.

To put this into context: Imagine you were eating at a pizzeria daily, and all of their menu choices were pre-packaged, so you had to pick from Plain Cheese, Pepperoni, or Supreme. For a decade you have come in and always ordered from one of those three choices. Some of you probably dislike mushroom but would order the Supreme anyways and just pick off the bits you didn't want. The restaurant decides they want to offer more selection on their menu and instead just orders plain cheese pizza as a base, and then they hand apply toppings of your choice. The new menu offers a few dozen items, but missing from the list is Pepperoni. As of 2019, 36% of pizza in the USA includes pepperoni. To try and sell the new offerings without abandoning their existing consumer base which over 1/3rd are expecting pepperoni, they offer them all coupons to get three free toppings of their choice from the available items to find something else they like. 

Anyways, I've said my part - Thanks for listening...

Edited August 24, 2023 by WareWolf.6951

[Da Traitor.3691]

It took Anet removing them for me to realise how much diversity there was in the 6th tier bonuses. There were summons, % stat increases, conditionals, boons etc. A wide range of effects and some of them were creative and added personality to many builds. Now, 99% of all we have are conditionals.

Sure they might have felt that certain bonuses, particularly the % stat increases, were over represented, but that what we decided worked for our builds. They didn't like the choices we made so they took those options away from us. How is it a better game for less options?

As others have said, the 10% HP and the 25% movement speed were crucial to keeping glass cannons alive and non-thieves the ability to keep up. They might have been boring compared to other bonuses, but it's not fun to be fragile or slow.

[Crowfang.8529]

Fun fact. Chrono runeset and pack grant the same bonuses. But pack is better. Chrono runes are useless now.

[Kirill.6798]

1 hour ago, Crowfang.8529 said:

Fun fact. Chrono runeset and pack grant the same bonuses. But pack is better. Chrono runes are useless now.

And there is an expansion, not a tiny balance patch. And this expansion is not free. Anet, could you keep these changes only for accounts that paid for them? And revert the old mechanics for all others, we didn't buy this garbage.

[WareWolf.6951]

14 hours ago, Kirill.6798 said:

And there is an expansion, not a tiny balance patch. And this expansion is not free. Anet, could you keep these changes only for accounts that paid for them? And revert the old mechanics for all others, we didn't buy this garbage.

I might actually be willing to sell my expansion back if it meant I could get my old runes. The rock dog really was worth it... 

[willow.8209]

I actually did like a new rune that i picked out of a box, I feel it improves my build. It seemed to be from a rune set I had never used before. However it's not like I had refined the build over many years this was a character i got to level 80 fairly recently.

I still need to look for a speed rune and so on. 

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, willow.8209 said:

I actually did like a new rune that i picked out of a box, I feel it improves my build. It seemed to be from a rune set I had never used before. However it's not like I had refined the build over many years this was a character i got to level 80 fairly recently.

I still need to look for a speed rune and so on. 

For me it's the exact opposite. So far i haven't seen any relic that i'd like. Thief gets a pass, but incidentally most of my builds are condi ones, so the end result is that most of my characters still do not have any Relic chosen (and equipped).

[willow.8209]

9 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

For me it's the exact opposite. So far i haven't seen any relic that i'd like. Thief gets a pass, but incidentally most of my builds are condi ones, so the end result is that most of my characters still do not have any Relic chosen (and equipped).

I liked Aristocracy for condi. I saw something else someone got from the wizard vault that they liked for condi, but I forgot the name.

Of course, you don't have to like what I like and I'm sorry you couldn't find something you liked. I'm sure I'll find the same when I open boxes for some of my other toons. 

Of course, I still think they should have included all 6th skills as relics right from the beginning, and given stuff commiserate with what people already had. I realize the 6th skill was replaced with something, but it wasn't similar to the removed skills and some people chose their rune sets specifically for this 6th skill (including me, frequently). It's a very annoying way to make changes, to take away functionality. 

I still don't have a firm idea how one gets more runes, and I'm barred from the Wizard Vault until I do the story, which I'm not doing until I finish a story that I've already been playing through. That has a bug in an episode which makes it uncompleteable, of course. 

Edited August 25, 2023 by willow.8209