Scourge might be a bit too strong (49k dps)

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

1 minute ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

Wouldn't that screw up though Harbinger in the process? You can't really change anything on the pistol without messing up Harbinger. You would need to need to change traits on the Harbi side as well to fix what you changed which may or may not work.

 

They can just take a "meta" gear of condi/expertise and adjust new conditions duration on pistol to equalize DPS with previous torments base and coef. May be a little nerf of duration in competitive modes as torments already hit lower.
Otherwise on contrary to Scourge, Harbinger has no problematic or synergy with torment outside Wicked Corruption, but that's not an issue with Deathly Haste, with torch, BiP, or in group,  etc.

[Aktium.9506]

Absolute clown meta.

Scourge 49k, Spectre 46k and Chaos Virt 43k. None of these builds should do above 35k.

[Dadnir.5038]

13 hours ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

Wouldn't that screw up though Harbinger in the process? You can't really change anything on the pistol without messing up Harbinger. You would need to need to change traits on the Harbi side as well to fix what you changed which may or may not work.

Ultimately it's a bit more complicated than what you seem to perceive.

The first thing that you should take into account is that harbinger lean a lot more on it's shroud for it's damage output than the scourge. Scourge benefit a lot from the pistol because it's main mechanism does not replace his weapon skills.

The second point is that condition damage output can also be balanced though base condition duration. Ultimately, if 3s base torment on pistol#1 become 4-5s base poison/bleed, you'll barely see any difference in the harbinger's dps output but you'll see a significative drop in the scourge dps output since he have a +33% damage modifier on torment.

Now, objectively, Harbinger deserve a rework since release so, personally I'd be more than happy if such ordeal led the devs to finally put some work on Harbinger.

[Passerbye.6291]

The sheer amount of people suggesting that the difference is only a few % or saying things like 14% is insignificant is baffling. Can we please try to remain objective here, and think about how significant a number 14% is? Now, please keep in mind that we have been in a massive powercreep train for a good while now. While it is not uncommon for games to have powercreep, what we have here occurs at an alarming rate, and not just for scourge btw. The fact that we have so many classes hitting above 40k should be a concern for all of us. When I started this game, 35-37k was considered high-end dps, and even this was a really powercrept number. Nowadays, I can pick up a class and hit that number in a single day. 

I see a lot of people suggest that numbers don't matter, there is no need for balance in PvE, they should never nerf and only buff. Now, if numbers don't matter, surely people who suggest that will be fine with a nerf to absurd damage numbers, as numbers don't matter.
For those of us who do care about old content not getting absolutely irrelevant, or who wish there to be an observeable difference between performing well with a dps build and doing poorly with it, instead of enemies dying with a lot of their mechanics getting bypassed regardless of who's playing the classes involved, balance indeed does matter, as does powercreep.

Whenever I see posts like this, people try to justify the absurd damage numbers with arguments like, benches don't matter, real fights have lower damage anyway. While this statement can be true. Everyone who performs at a relatively high level as dps has a fairly good grasp of what DPS uptime is, this is exactly why a lot of people had a problem with rifle mech benching 38k with someone drooling on their keyboard a while back. Scourge, while not exactly the same, is a relatively easy to play DPS class, is mostly ranged, can go almost entirely non-projectile by camping scepter at the cost of some of its damage, has good sustain, utility and CC damage. This is one of the few classes you can't argue against bench numbers with, and tbh even with classes that you can, if a class that previously did 35k on bench is now doing 42-44k, without much that is different in gameplay, the percentage of increase relative to the previous bench often translates perfectly to actual combat.

Before someone inevitably tries to throw in the useless argument of "What about people with disabilities, those who enjoy LI builds, my grandmother and her friends from her book club?".  I can play this game with a mouse only and still easily do over 30k damage with multiple builds. I see a lot of people prefer low intensity builds, because sometimes you just want to chill and do content, which is fine. But the problem with constantly bringing up this argument is, people who cared to do content still did content when benches were 35k, people did raids with 10 healers, auto attacks only and various other meme combinations. People have soloed/duoed CM modes of some fractals. We already had access to multiple super easy builds capable of doing all content already, arbitrarily increasing the damage numbers does little to help these people, if anything, as damage numbers increase, I see casual players get worse and worse. The less people need to do to complete content, the worse they start playing. I feel like it isn't elitist to expect people to put in what little effort this game requires when they are doing endgame content.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Passerbye.6291

[rotten.9753]

On 8/27/2023 at 11:32 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

I disagree with the statement that scourge should not have a viable pure dps option. All other "healer" specs have now pure dps build options that are close if not already viable, there is no reason for scourge to not have this option as well. (the scourge's utility isn't any more obscene than it's competitors' unsung utility)

The main issue currently is mostly the effect of the synergy between harbinger's pistol and demonic lore. Scourge's dps wasn't really outstanding before they got access to the weapon.

My personal opinion is that harbinger's tools (both shroud and pistol skills) should have been focused on poison instead of torment which would have saved us from this ordeal and would help balance and differentiate harbinger's identity as well.

You can play without healers because scourge stacks so much barrier and condition conversion, the DPS scourge will always be too oppressive if it has a competitive DPS build because it has so much support baked in. It's also pretty much fully ranged without projectiles, so not even a projectile hate can counter it.

Scourge should be like tempest - DPS build should do bottom DPS compared to other specs.

[Keelin.5781]

9 minutes ago, rotten.9753 said:

You can play without healers because scourge stacks so much barrier and condition conversion, the DPS scourge will always be too oppressive if it has a competitive DPS build because it has so much support baked in. It's also pretty much fully ranged without projectiles, so not even a projectile hate can counter it.

Scourge should be like tempest - DPS build should do bottom DPS compared to other specs.

Sorry is this about PvE or PvP? I'd assume at least partially PvP because you're talking about projectile hate?

Now i'd agree that you can manage conditions pretty well even as a DPS scourge but the barriers you put out are very small without healing power to support them. Is this about doing an entire raid with nothing but scourges then?

In any case there is no reason why any elite spec shouldn't have a valid DPS build. If the DPS build has too much support then balance the traits in a way that manages that problem. Although i can understand why that expectation might be a bit much at this point.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Keelin.5781

[rotten.9753]

1 minute ago, Keelin.5781 said:

Sorry is this about PvE or PvP? I'd assume at least partially PvP because you're talking about projectile hate?

Now i'd agree that you can manage conditions pretty well even as a DPS scourge but the barriers you put out are very small without healing power to support them. Is this about doing an entire raid with nothing but scourges then?

In any case there is no reason why any elite spec shouldn't have a valid DPS build. If the DPS build has too much support then balance the traits in a way that manages that problem. Although i can understand why that expectation might be a bit much at this point.

It's strictly PvE, projectile hate can happen during some encounters and even then scourge just laughs.

Scourge shouldn't have easy access to support (barrier, condition conversion) for free, f2/f3 should be traited for damage or support, so you can't have both, e.g. Sadistic Searing inflicts burning like now, but you lose condition conversion. A DPS build with a lot of support will always be preferred over selfish builds.

[Keelin.5781]

50 minutes ago, rotten.9753 said:

It's strictly PvE, projectile hate can happen during some encounters and even then scourge just laughs.

Scourge shouldn't have easy access to support (barrier, condition conversion) for free, f2/f3 should be traited for damage or support, so you can't have both, e.g. Sadistic Searing inflicts burning like now, but you lose condition conversion. A DPS build with a lot of support will always be preferred over selfish builds.

Sure, i agree that you should have to choose. I'm just saying you should be able to play a DPS scourge if you want, and it should be viable, even if it means that you get weaker in other areas. I don't think that's too much to ask.

And while it's certainly true that the scourge is one of the cases with this problem, it's by far not the only one. But it's highlighting the issue because of the current numbers, that's for sure.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Keelin.5781

[Tanachi.3951]

Today, for the first time in my life, I went to the training golem room with scourge. I made 2 series of parses, one without boons, to simulate a more common scenario, and full boons, to simulate a zerg. I know I'm not the best player out there, so I expected to hit at least 35k. I didn't even reach 30k. I reached constantly 16k on the first series, and around 25~26k on the second ones. This made me reach two conclusions:

·If I'm reaching 26k following the rotation, people that play more casually, or have a slighly modified build, will be hitting lower numbers.

·If I have to put a lot of effort in reaching the 49k benchmark, using all other class specific buffs and traits, eating the best condi food and positioning perfectly, then that number is completely unrealistic. Enemies have mechanics that you have to complete, a lot of them move, taking a big chunk of torment damage away, not all groups or zergs have all class buffs, etc...

And the argument about having easy to access support and all of that would be pretty valid... if we were talking about PvP. Why do you care so much about "nerfing" classes in PvE? You dont like that the class has easy access to a lot of things and is too easy to play? Dont play scourge. You don't like that your class doesn't have access to free condi cleanse, boon conversion, barrier, etc... without sacrificing damage? Play scourge, or ask for your class to be buffed. I don't care if you think content is easier or whatever because some benchmarks came out saying max damage is 49k, nobody is hitting those numbers. The only ones taking the fun away from the game are you, constantly asking for nerfs IN PVE. And I'm pretty sure most of you don't even play the class regularly. Heck, I'd even bet that some of you don't even play the game at all nowadays, you just open snowcrows from time to time to take a look at the benchmarks to have a reason to complain.

I'm really tired to see a new build, try it out and find that I like it, and be scared of investing my time and resources on in only for it to be gutted next patch. I guess I'll just give up and play guardian/mesmer like everyone else.

[rotten.9753]

29 minutes ago, Tanachi.3951 said:

Today, for the first time in my life, I went to the training golem room with scourge. I made 2 series of parses, one without boons, to simulate a more common scenario, and full boons, to simulate a zerg. I know I'm not the best player out there, so I expected to hit at least 35k. I didn't even reach 30k. I reached constantly 16k on the first series, and around 25~26k on the second ones. This made me reach two conclusions:

·If I'm reaching 26k following the rotation, people that play more casually, or have a slighly modified build, will be hitting lower numbers.

·If I have to put a lot of effort in reaching the 49k benchmark, using all other class specific buffs and traits, eating the best condi food and positioning perfectly, then that number is completely unrealistic. Enemies have mechanics that you have to complete, a lot of them move, taking a big chunk of torment damage away, not all groups or zergs have all class buffs, etc...

And the argument about having easy to access support and all of that would be pretty valid... if we were talking about PvP. Why do you care so much about "nerfing" classes in PvE? You dont like that the class has easy access to a lot of things and is too easy to play? Dont play scourge. You don't like that your class doesn't have access to free condi cleanse, boon conversion, barrier, etc... without sacrificing damage? Play scourge, or ask for your class to be buffed. I don't care if you think content is easier or whatever because some benchmarks came out saying max damage is 49k, nobody is hitting those numbers. The only ones taking the fun away from the game are you, constantly asking for nerfs IN PVE. And I'm pretty sure most of you don't even play the class regularly. Heck, I'd even bet that some of you don't even play the game at all nowadays, you just open snowcrows from time to time to take a look at the benchmarks to have a reason to complain.

I'm really tired to see a new build, try it out and find that I like it, and be scared of investing my time and resources on in only for it to be gutted next patch. I guess I'll just give up and play guardian/mesmer like everyone else.

Based on what you wrote, you shouldn't really care if they nerf scourge by 20%-30% because you won't notice that.

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

58 minutes ago, Tanachi.3951 said:

Today, for the first time in my life, I went to the training golem room with scourge. I made 2 series of parses, one without boons, to simulate a more common scenario, and full boons, to simulate a zerg. I know I'm not the best player out there, so I expected to hit at least 35k. I didn't even reach 30k. I reached constantly 16k on the first series, and around 25~26k on the second ones. This made me reach two conclusions:

·If I'm reaching 26k following the rotation, people that play more casually, or have a slighly modified build, will be hitting lower numbers.

·If I have to put a lot of effort in reaching the 49k benchmark, using all other class specific buffs and traits, eating the best condi food and positioning perfectly, then that number is completely unrealistic. Enemies have mechanics that you have to complete, a lot of them move, taking a big chunk of torment damage away, not all groups or zergs have all class buffs, etc...

And the argument about having easy to access support and all of that would be pretty valid... if we were talking about PvP. Why do you care so much about "nerfing" classes in PvE? You dont like that the class has easy access to a lot of things and is too easy to play? Dont play scourge. You don't like that your class doesn't have access to free condi cleanse, boon conversion, barrier, etc... without sacrificing damage? Play scourge, or ask for your class to be buffed. I don't care if you think content is easier or whatever because some benchmarks came out saying max damage is 49k, nobody is hitting those numbers. The only ones taking the fun away from the game are you, constantly asking for nerfs IN PVE. And I'm pretty sure most of you don't even play the class regularly. Heck, I'd even bet that some of you don't even play the game at all nowadays, you just open snowcrows from time to time to take a look at the benchmarks to have a reason to complain.

I'm really tired to see a new build, try it out and find that I like it, and be scared of investing my time and resources on in only for it to be gutted next patch. I guess I'll just give up and play guardian/mesmer like everyone else.

People like you said see someone sitting at a golem, that's stationary, that doesn't really do anything back, and go wow! Much DMG such DPS! Lol. It's sad people watch that stuff and think everyone hits those numbers. Like there isn't people with

1) disabilitys that play the game

2) care about "benchmarks"

3) run the same build as everyone else

List goes on and go, and they think cause of some dumb bench, it needs a nerf.  What they don't fail to realize is it's most likely runes/relics/ sigils and other things that isn't scourge itself. For instance the guy that mentioned nerf pistol! Loll, smh pistol has nothing to do with scourge initially.

They would think, synergy would be welcomed, maybe instead of calling  nerfs, they should call for synergy amongst other classes/traits/sigils/relics and so on.

But they want it taken away and nerfed cause omg it does x, and Y without any real thoughts and reason behind what they say, sheeps is all. Blindly following.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

1 hour ago, porkchopMCgee.6193 said:

Yes change something that literally has nothing to do with scourge initially, cause that makes sense /shrug

Y'all just want to complain

Those changes will literally do nothing to harbinger but will balance scourge + if you haven't understand yet, pistol is no more exclusive to Harbinger neither.

Why you're complaining ? /shrug

[Tanachi.3951]

42 minutes ago, rotten.9753 said:

Based on what you wrote, you shouldn't really care if they nerf scourge by 20%-30% because you won't notice that.

If you nerf scourge by 20%~30% you would see a guy hitting a golem and reach 35k or 40k and say "aah, so balanced". Meanwhile, people actually playing the class will struggle getting some damage, which in turn would make the class less useable in real scenarios. They would go play another class, because it would be simply better than scourge.

But numbers aren't the main concern, because nerfs not always target numbers. Worst case scenario would be: "We reworked this trait, now it makes you summon an angry shade, that carries the entire condi damage of the class, but takes away all utility of the shades, making it yet another parsing class, useless in real situations. Next patch, when snow crows releases a 45k benchmarks of scourge with the condi traits we will nerf this trait, making it only get 35k on golem."

[rotten.9753]

22 minutes ago, Tanachi.3951 said:

If you nerf scourge by 20%~30% you would see a guy hitting a golem and reach 35k or 40k and say "aah, so balanced". Meanwhile, people actually playing the class will struggle getting some damage, which in turn would make the class less useable in real scenarios. They would go play another class, because it would be simply better than scourge.

But numbers aren't the main concern, because nerfs not always target numbers. Worst case scenario would be: "We reworked this trait, now it makes you summon an angry shade, that carries the entire condi damage of the class, but takes away all utility of the shades, making it yet another parsing class, useless in real situations. Next patch, when snow crows releases a 45k benchmarks of scourge with the condi traits we will nerf this trait, making it only get 35k on golem."

40k is already too much and would still be playable. Scourge, as a pure DPS build, brings support (every few seconds you convert one condition from your allies, you have free barrier), is fully range (e.g. on Ankka, where silly a Weaver player deals 0 damage, a smart Scourge player can just continue his rotation) and the rotation isn't even hard.

If you want to have a competitive Scourge DPS without being OP compared to other builds, 2 things need to happen:

1. Content needs to punish ranged players or the DPS of ranged builds must be lowered so melee specs can actually compete, right now they are heavily punished while ranged builds pew-pew happily.

2. Scourge support needs to be balanced, it can't be allowed to bring so much support for free while having competitive DPS, it should be either support and less DPS or no support and more DPS.

Without that happening, even with e.g. Weaver benching at 44k and Scourge with 40k, Scourge would still better in non-golem content.

[Warscythes.9307]

2 hours ago, Tanachi.3951 said:

Today, for the first time in my life, I went to the training golem room with scourge. I made 2 series of parses, one without boons, to simulate a more common scenario, and full boons, to simulate a zerg. I know I'm not the best player out there, so I expected to hit at least 35k. I didn't even reach 30k. I reached constantly 16k on the first series, and around 25~26k on the second ones. This made me reach two conclusions:

·If I'm reaching 26k following the rotation, people that play more casually, or have a slighly modified build, will be hitting lower numbers.

·If I have to put a lot of effort in reaching the 49k benchmark, using all other class specific buffs and traits, eating the best condi food and positioning perfectly, then that number is completely unrealistic. Enemies have mechanics that you have to complete, a lot of them move, taking a big chunk of torment damage away, not all groups or zergs have all class buffs, etc...

And the argument about having easy to access support and all of that would be pretty valid... if we were talking about PvP. Why do you care so much about "nerfing" classes in PvE? You dont like that the class has easy access to a lot of things and is too easy to play? Dont play scourge. You don't like that your class doesn't have access to free condi cleanse, boon conversion, barrier, etc... without sacrificing damage? Play scourge, or ask for your class to be buffed. I don't care if you think content is easier or whatever because some benchmarks came out saying max damage is 49k, nobody is hitting those numbers. The only ones taking the fun away from the game are you, constantly asking for nerfs IN PVE. And I'm pretty sure most of you don't even play the class regularly. Heck, I'd even bet that some of you don't even play the game at all nowadays, you just open snowcrows from time to time to take a look at the benchmarks to have a reason to complain.

I'm really tired to see a new build, try it out and find that I like it, and be scared of investing my time and resources on in only for it to be gutted next patch. I guess I'll just give up and play guardian/mesmer like everyone else.

Have you thought that maybe you are doing it very wrong? Is your gear and trait setup correct?

I just went in the training golem as well with just scepter/torch. So no pistol at all. Standard build with viper, arti relic and nightmare runes which I think is actually outdated, I did not use any rotation, what I did was randomly hit every button on cooldown. I got 34k. There is literally 0 thought in it and it is pure faceroll. No weapon swap, no rotation, absolutely nothing. Just hit randomly on whatever is up. 

Ok I did put one thought in, I didn't hit heal, f3 and f4 and I took signet of undeath so I don't have to hit signet of spite.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Warscythes.9307

[GeraldBC.4927]

It's just the pendulum swinging in the other direction after a literal decade of keeping the necro nerfed into irrelevance.

No amount of power on the scourge is ever too much. Scourge could be benching 80K and I'd still say it's deserved. 

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

53 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Have you thought that maybe you are doing it very wrong? Is your gear and trait setup correct?

I just went in the training golem as well with just scepter/torch. So no pistol at all. Standard build with viper, arti relic and nightmare runes which I think is actually outdated, I did not use any rotation, what I did was randomly hit every button on cooldown. I got 34k. There is literally 0 thought in it and it is pure faceroll. No weapon swap, no rotation, absolutely nothing. Just hit randomly on whatever is up. 

Ok I did put one thought in, I didn't hit heal, f3 and f4 and I took signet of undeath so I don't have to hit signet of spite.

34k isn't 49k

Also now do it without viper, arti relic and nightmare runes.

Edited August 28, 2023 by porkchopMCgee.6193

[Warscythes.9307]

22 minutes ago, porkchopMCgee.6193 said:

34k isn't 49k

Also now do it without viper, arti relic and nightmare runes.

I tried to do it as brainless as possible as you see I mentioned I didn't use a pistol to account for any minmax that needs to be done. So of course is not going to be anywhere close to 49k. I was more showing that there is very likely an issue with the person's build or he/she focused way too hard on a rotation when mashing button is better. This is as easy as I can make it which is literally hitting buttons randomly. I would just auto attack if I can get away with it.

Also the entire point of this conversation is about the meta build. What am I suppose to bench with shaman gear? How does that make sense?

Edited August 28, 2023 by Warscythes.9307

[Nephalem.8921]

3 hours ago, Tanachi.3951 said:

Today, for the first time in my life, I went to the training golem room with scourge. I made 2 series of parses, one without boons, to simulate a more common scenario, and full boons, to simulate a zerg. I know I'm not the best player out there, so I expected to hit at least 35k. I didn't even reach 30k. I reached constantly 16k on the first series, and around 25~26k on the second ones. This made me reach two conclusions:

·If I'm reaching 26k following the rotation, people that play more casually, or have a slighly modified build, will be hitting lower numbers.

·If I have to put a lot of effort in reaching the 49k benchmark, using all other class specific buffs and traits, eating the best condi food and positioning perfectly, then that number is completely unrealistic. Enemies have mechanics that you have to complete, a lot of them move, taking a big chunk of torment damage away, not all groups or zergs have all class buffs, etc...

And the argument about having easy to access support and all of that would be pretty valid... if we were talking about PvP. Why do you care so much about "nerfing" classes in PvE? You dont like that the class has easy access to a lot of things and is too easy to play? Dont play scourge. You don't like that your class doesn't have access to free condi cleanse, boon conversion, barrier, etc... without sacrificing damage? Play scourge, or ask for your class to be buffed. I don't care if you think content is easier or whatever because some benchmarks came out saying max damage is 49k, nobody is hitting those numbers. The only ones taking the fun away from the game are you, constantly asking for nerfs IN PVE. And I'm pretty sure most of you don't even play the class regularly. Heck, I'd even bet that some of you don't even play the game at all nowadays, you just open snowcrows from time to time to take a look at the benchmarks to have a reason to complain.

I'm really tired to see a new build, try it out and find that I like it, and be scared of investing my time and resources on in only for it to be gutted next patch. I guess I'll just give up and play guardian/mesmer like everyone else.

Ok you struggle to reach 50% bench performance. Let me put this into perspective. I just tried it on golem, without food, pistol/torch only, no utilities except for lf signet and i got 35k. You are not average. You have to try to be that low. When i use utilities and food it already catapults me to 45k dps. Thats the no weapon swap scourge with barely a rotation. I am almost sure your build is far from what the bench uses because with utilities i would not be able to be that low even if i tried.

Now to the food and boon argument. Other builds are also losing dps from not having them so the builds stay the same relative to each other. Crazy concept.

Just think for a minute even if that sounds like work and the game is not your job afterall i know. You are NOT following the rotation in the slightest. And if you reach that low on scourge, what are you hitting on builds benching 10k lower? Also your performance on that build is so lacking that you would not even notice a 20% dmg cut. Running the right setup or pressing a right button would affect you harder than any balance changes anet does. I doubt that you are running arc anyways.

Why would it only matter in pvp and not pve? If scourge makes success faster, easier and safer why wouldn't this be an issue in pve? YOU are not hitting those numbers. A lot of people do. Who even plays guardian in pve currently? And who plays mesmer? Mirage is kitten, chrono is a portal bot and virtu is severely outclassed by scourge but also overperforming hard. The chaos virtu build should have never been a thing. 

 

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

7 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

I tried to do it as brainless as possible as you see I mentioned I didn't use a pistol to account for any minmax that needs to be done. So of course is not going to be anywhere close to 49k. I was more showing that there is very likely an issue with the person's build or he/she focused way too hard on a rotation when mashing button is better. This is as easy as I can make it which is literally hitting buttons randomly. I would just auto attack if I can get away with it.

Also the entire point of this conversation is about the meta build. What am I suppose to bench with shaman gear? How does that make sense?

But you didn't factor in people are complaining about the support aspect too. You didn't mention anything about that.

 

Why without meta gear? Why not, show the numbers without meta gear, compare them and see it's not scourge itself but the influence of runes/sig/relics

Edited August 28, 2023 by porkchopMCgee.6193

[Tanachi.3951]

1 hour ago, rotten.9753 said:

40k is already too much and would still be playable. Scourge, as a pure DPS build, brings support (every few seconds you convert one condition from your allies, you have free barrier), is fully range (e.g. on Ankka, where silly a Weaver player deals 0 damage, a smart Scourge player can just continue his rotation) and the rotation isn't even hard.

If you want to have a competitive Scourge DPS without being OP compared to other builds, 2 things need to happen:

1. Content needs to punish ranged players or the DPS of ranged builds must be lowered so melee specs can actually compete, right now they are heavily punished while ranged builds pew-pew happily.

2. Scourge support needs to be balanced, it can't be allowed to bring so much support for free while having competitive DPS, it should be either support and less DPS or no support and more DPS.

Without that happening, even with e.g. Weaver benching at 44k and Scourge with 40k, Scourge would still better in non-golem content.

Actually, I can agree with you on one thing, melee specs should be able to compete, maybe get a buff on damage or sustain or staying power. Taking utility from scourge would kill its class identity, since harbinger it's supposed to be the "full condi dps" spec of necro.

1 hour ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Have you thought that maybe you are doing it very wrong? Is your gear and trait setup correct?

I just went in the training golem as well with just scepter/torch. So no pistol at all. Standard build with viper, arti relic and nightmare runes which I think is actually outdated, I did not use any rotation, what I did was randomly hit every button on cooldown. I got 34k. There is literally 0 thought in it and it is pure faceroll. No weapon swap, no rotation, absolutely nothing. Just hit randomly on whatever is up. 

Ok I did put one thought in, I didn't hit heal, f3 and f4 and I took signet of undeath so I don't have to hit signet of spite.

Trait and gear are correct, exotic gear tho, like I said I didn't feel like investing too much on a class that's gonna get gutted. Same runes, no food and the relic I used was aristocracy. Don't know which relic is that one you used tho. I tried to follow the rotation on snow crows website for it to be as closely as possible to their parse.

50 minutes ago, GeraldBC.4927 said:

It's just the pendulum swinging in the other direction after a literal decade of keeping the necro nerfed into irrelevance.

No amount of power on the scourge is ever too much. Scourge could be benching 80K and I'd still say it's deserved. 

Based.

[Warscythes.9307]

3 minutes ago, porkchopMCgee.6193 said:

But you didn't factor in people are complaining about the support aspect too. You didn't mention anything about that.

 

Why without meta gear? Why not, show the numbers without meta gear, compare them and see it's not scourge itself but the influence of runes/sig/relics

What support aspect? We are talking about just dps numbers here. 

Why just meta gear? Because we are talking about benchmark here. You do realize there are some builds that are just straight up bad right? Soldier scourge for example makes literally 0 sense at all, do you expect somehow that be something valid? No. You just have the option because this game does allow you to make extremely bad builds. Why would you talk about benchmark if we are not following benchmark standards? 

[Warscythes.9307]

6 minutes ago, Tanachi.3951 said:

Trait and gear are correct, exotic gear tho, like I said I didn't feel like investing too much on a class that's gonna get gutted. Same runes, no food and the relic I used was aristocracy. Don't know which relic is that one you used tho. I tried to follow the rotation on snow crows website for it to be as closely as possible to their parse.

Based.

Then you did the rotation extremely poorly. I was literally mashing buttons. I hate to say it but this is a skill issue. You have to purposefully playing the class wrong than me randomly hitting buttons. Are you clicking with your mouse or something. I didn't use food either. 

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Warscythes.9307

[Tanachi.3951]

15 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Ok you struggle to reach 50% bench performance. Let me put this into perspective. I just tried it on golem, without food, pistol/torch only, no utilities except for lf signet and i got 35k. You are not average. You have to try to be that low. When i use utilities and food it already catapults me to 45k dps. Thats the no weapon swap scourge with barely a rotation. I am almost sure your build is far from what the bench uses because with utilities i would not be able to be that low even if i tried.

Now to the food and boon argument. Other builds are also losing dps from not having them so the builds stay the same relative to each other. Crazy concept.

Just think for a minute even if that sounds like work and the game is not your job afterall i know. You are NOT following the rotation in the slightest. And if you reach that low on scourge, what are you hitting on builds benching 10k lower? Also your performance on that build is so lacking that you would not even notice a 20% dmg cut. Running the right setup or pressing a right button would affect you harder than any balance changes anet does. I doubt that you are running arc anyways.

Why would it only matter in pvp and not pve? If scourge makes success faster, easier and safer why wouldn't this be an issue in pve? YOU are not hitting those numbers. A lot of people do. Who even plays guardian in pve currently? And who plays mesmer? Mirage is kitten, chrono is a portal bot and virtu is severely outclassed by scourge but also overperforming hard. The chaos virtu build should have never been a thing. 

 

1 minute ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Then you did the rotation extremely poorly. I was literally mashing buttons. I hate to say it but this is a skill issue. You have to purposefully playing the class wrong than me randomly hitting buttons. Are you clicking with your mouse or something. 

I mean, I'm not an elite player or anything, but I can't be that bad. What golem setup did you use? I just gave myself all boons and called it a day.

[Warscythes.9307]

1 minute ago, Tanachi.3951 said:

I mean, I'm not an elite player or anything, but I can't be that bad. What golem setup did you use? I just gave myself all boons and called it a day.

Did you give conditions to the golem?