bladesworn sustain is too much

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

11 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Can't fight them with ranged. Can't fight them in melee. Can't outsustain them.

Only option is to quickly overwhelm them Xv1. But that's true of most classes apart from Virtuoso.

So they avoid teamfights and position for 1v1s. And if the burst isn't quick enough, they have pretty great mobility to escape/stall.

Annoyingly accurate. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Bladesworn has always kinda been this way--having the new relic is just back to when tactical reload affected all shouts.

It's low effort spec; usually I try to stalemate one on a node that way it isn't bothering the other two nodes.  

I do have to laugh though at bladesworn sustain being too much and soulbeast burst being too much.  Which one is actually 'too much'? 😃

[Bazsi.2734]

No it's not, keep healing kings!

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

10 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I do have to laugh though at bladesworn sustain being too much and soulbeast burst being too much.  Which one is actually 'too much'? 😃

When people complain about too much sustain and too much damage at the same time, you're close to balance. Most people will never admit the game is balanced, but the things they claim are overpowered will begin to conflict. 

20k from stealth and perma reflecting projectiles/sustain until you get 2v1ed both kinda toxic though. they need slight tapping. Not enough to free win against them, but enough that there's a justification for the sustain/damage that hinges largely on player skill. 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Flowki.7194]

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

When people complain about too much sustain and too much damage at the same time, you're close to balance. Most people will never admit the game is balanced, but the things they claim are overpowered will begin to conflict. 

20k from stealth and perma reflecting projectiles/sustain until you get 2v1ed both kinda toxic though. they need slight tapping. Not enough to free win against them, but enough that there's a justification for the sustain/damage that hinges largely on player skill. 

No way bud, this isnt the averages of stats. Both of them are broken, and its not a sign of balance, its the exact opposite.

 

I see a bladesworn in game, I don't even bother attacking unless its 2 or 3v1, all bladesornds know this.. so they litterally get a free game to do group dps, or free point unless you 2v1. Why should any class have this kind of power?.. and worse still, its not even hard. Is their actually an easier spec than bladesworn??

 

Soulbeast is just horrendous dmg. I got a 16k crit yesterday, and then intantly stopped playing the meta build. Their is nothing in this game that is hard enough to deserve a 16k crit, nothing. Ill never play that pig loadout again.

 

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

8 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

No way bud, this isnt the averages of stats. Both of them are broken

So adjust them both. I wasn't defending either. 

Quote

and its not a sign of balance, its the exact opposite.

Averages of stats isn't what I meant. Outliers are now easily identifiable because the baseline for what you'd expect from classes is clearer. 

[Flowki.7194]

24 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

So adjust them both. I wasn't defending either. 

Averages of stats isn't what I meant. Outliers are now easily identifiable because the baseline for what you'd expect from classes is clearer. 

But what is it we expact? There are no ''class roles'' plat players keep justifying one shot builds, less skilled players keep defending easy sustain builds, there is a lack of condi clense in the game to keep up with immob/condi spam,  just waiting to show its face if the power creep is delt with. There is still only 2 supports being used, out of how many?

 

Do we expect burst specs to have no sustain, and sustain specs to have no dps? I can ride with that, but thats not what the current game looks like. Not even close. Virt/blade put out good dmg. SB/hollow/scrapper/zerker all have pretty decent disengage/sustain.. theirs a reason you never see hammer catas.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[magickthief.6492]

vindicator sustain is too much

[Psycoprophet.8107]

18 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

But what is it we expact? There are no ''class roles'' plat players keep justifying one shot builds, less skilled players keep defending easy sustain builds, there is a lack of condi clense in the game to keep up with immob/condi spam,  just waiting to show its face if the power creep is delt with. There is still only 2 supports being used, out of how many?

 

Do we expect burst specs to have no sustain, and sustain specs to have no dps? I can ride with that, but thats not what the current game looks like. Not even close. Virt/blade put out good dmg. SB/hollow/scrapper/zerker all have pretty decent disengage/sustain.. theirs a reason you never see hammer catas.

I'd guess like 2% of pvp population would play the high sustain low dps builds and forums would still be filled same as now with x class does to much damage, sustain classes never die etc etc. With a game with variations as such a mmo has balance will never be achieved l, best u can hope for is that each class has a few build option that allow the player to feel like their capable, powerful, able to contribute to the role or match their participating in and most of all be enjoyable to play. Anything beyond that is fantasy balance land.

[Flowki.7194]

18 minutes ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

I'd guess like 2% of pvp population would play the high sustain low dps builds and forums would still be filled same as now with x class does to much damage, sustain classes never die etc etc. With a game with variations as such a mmo has balance will never be achieved l, best u can hope for is that each class has a few build option that allow the player to feel like their capable, powerful, able to contribute to the role or match their participating in and most of all be enjoyable to play. Anything beyond that is fantasy balance land.

Thats just it though, when ever I play tempest or rev support now, it doesn't take long to realise I'd be having far more impact on a dps. This isn't just about missmatches either. Even when some games are quite close, I know their are plenty of sitautions where I would have killed targets on dps, and my team wouldnt have needed support, if you follow what I mean, killing enemy is essentailly the best form of mitigation for your team.

 

Heres the issue I think;

 

The current dps are mobile or sustainy/bursty enough that they don't need a support to get in/out, or secure a single kill. If the enemy have SB+mesmer+scrapper.. log off support, play dps. The games are essentially won on what team picks the correct target to burst down.. and not much else.

 

For example, if the enemy primary me on tempest, and we primary the SB, we likely win that fight. If we primary the core gaurd, and they primary our scrapper, we lose that fight. See the key here? burst down the burst.. and more burst just helps with that.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Psycoprophet.8107]

2 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Thats just it though, when ever I play tempest or rev support now, it doesn't take long to realise I'd be having far more impact on a dps. This isn't just about missmatches either. Even when some games are quite close, I know their are plenty of sitautions where I would have killed targets on dps, and my team wouldnt have needed support, if you follow what I mean, killing enemy is essentailly the best form of mitigation for your team.

 

Heres the issue I think;

 

The current dps are mobile or sustainy/bursty enough that they don't need a support to get in/out, or secure a kill. If the enemy have SB+mesmer+scrapper.. log off support, play dps. The games are essentially won on what team picks the correct target to burst down.. and not much else.

Unfortunately that's just how the devs designed the classes. Imo thief, mesmer and ranger would be the dexterous classes of the game ie thief having highest burst, most mobility, stealth and evades, mesmer most teleports and evades,  ranger would be a slightly higher sustain medium of the both having decent stealth, evades and mobility but slightly less damage but still good burst.

Guardian higher base hp and far less burst than it has and less mobile with great self sustain and party sustain options.

Warrior high sustain,cc and great sustained damage and ok burst and ok mobility,  good all round but not top damage, sustain or mobility. Some support options okish at best.

Necro low mobility high sustai , higher than warrior but lower damage than warrior as well, good team sustain support options through blood magic.

And so onand so on, but gw2 is a game where every class can do different roles and different roles need different amounts of sustain, burst, Mobility etc and since classes can mix trait lines other than especs u get every class mixing traitlines so u get high sustain, high bursts and all classes have at minimum good to great mobility options at this point so all these defining attributes whether its high sustain, mobility or damage get blurred and mixed in for the best builds.

[Aaron.1294]

they can now nerf it to the ground and in like 5 or 6 months maybe decide to rework it. If not then it's still not bad because bladesworn shouldn't be even close to viable in the state it is now.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

56 minutes ago, Aaron.1294 said:

they can now nerf it to the ground and in like 5 or 6 months maybe decide to rework it. If not then it's still not bad because bladesworn shouldn't be even close to viable in the state it is now.

Something about anet constantly shipping bunker warriors but running ahead of any indication that power/glass warrior may become strong to hit it in the shins is particularly annoying to me. I can't quite put my finger on it though. 

At least it isn't 2v1 mitigation strong. baby steps, I guess. Hopefully the option remains viable for people who are irritated by DPS in the current meta though, even after they give it a look.

@bethekey.8314, since you probably have a stronger leaning than I here, can I get your opinion on this again? Mobility in current meta is strong, people are upset with burst, but also upset with certain sustain specs. is "2v1 it, ignore it 1v1" like... the take here? People can cross the map faster now, so idk. 

Bonus question, let's assume Mechanist is also as tanky 1v1,  but falls over 2v1. 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Neiuso.9806]

Some ideas for balancing Bladesworn's sustain:

Add a 20 second cooldown to Thick Skin (Defense Traitline minor adept) in competitive modes to reduce its uptime on Protection. This way it won't affect other Warrior specs running Defense, and only hits Bladesworn since it gets many more procs of it due to Combat Stimulant being an ammo skill (and due to Tactical Reload).

Change Shield Master's interaction with Aegis. Right now, it reflects all projectiles while Aegis is active. The reason why this is broken (aside from the sheer amount of projectile hate this trait alone provides Bladesworn by allowing Aegis to block and reflect far more than only 1 projectile) in comparison to its interaction with traditional blocking is because you can freely attack while Aegis is active. At the very least, you're locked into a blocking animation with things like Shield 5, Sword 5, etc.. With the amount of Aegis Bladesworn has access to, it lets them attack ranged-focused specs at will without a second thought. My recommendation would be letting Aegis reflect a single projectile when active with the Shield Master trait while also consuming it.

Dragon Trigger 3 (Reach) is currently benefitting from Burst-related traits similarly to Longbow's Scorched Earth - it only needs to be cast and it will proc traits like Berserker's Power and Adrenal Health. Change it so it needs to hit a target.

Unshakable Mountain probably didn't need the bump from a shield of ~800 to ~1000 when Bladesworn also gained access to much more potential ammo (Pistol 4 becoming an ammo skill and lowered cooldown, Gunsaber 3's ammo cooldown lowered from 10 to 8 seconds, and Tactical Reload's cooldown being lowered from 60 to 40 seconds). This should probably be lowered down to 800 again.

These are the ideas that come to mind from someone that plays a ton of Bladesworn but doesn't want the class to become unplayable if the sustain is hit. Not necessarily all of the changes would be needed, but I think shaving down multiple areas of its sustain in exchange for things like stability and better general usage of Dragon Trigger would be favorable for the health of the spec in competitive modes.

[bethekey.8314]

On 9/5/2023 at 3:28 PM, Flowki.7194 said:

plat players keep justifying one shot builds

This an interesting point. I don't think it's necessarily true that the best players want broken builds.

However, with the current imbalances in matchmaking, maybe broken damage builds are the only thing that allow the 1 good player to feel like they're influencing the match enough? It's so hard to carry 4 bad players with a support or tanky build. You don't have enough impact.

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

since you probably have a stronger leaning than I here, can I get your opinion on this again? Mobility in current meta is strong, people are upset with burst, but also upset with certain sustain specs. is "2v1 it, ignore it 1v1" like... the take here? People can cross the map faster now, so idk. 

Bonus question, let's assume Mechanist is also as tanky 1v1,  but falls over 2v1. 

Like another mentioned here, I don't like the contrast of "look, balance, because two specs are broken in opposite ways". Having two extremes to balance each other isn't good balance, and the builds/classes caught in between the extremes suffer.

I don't think any build should be so degenerate as to completely, even passively, counter another. I want my decision to avoid a 1v1 to factor in skill. Right now, when I saunter up to far on my Rifle Engi and see a Bladesworn, there's no question of "maybe if I outskill him?". It's just "Oop, broken class that hard counters me by existing, better leave and never come back".

Assuming equal skill, a skilled player on a dedicated tanky build SHOULD be able to tank 1v2 for awhile imo. Infinitely even, if they're against significantly worse opponents. But skill and random luck should matter. Not pure rock-paper-scissors.

At least with glass builds there's always that element of luck. Sure, Rangers right now have unhinged burst potential compared to my equally glass builds. But at least there's a possibility my burst connects before theirs and I get to shame them.

Edited September 7, 2023 by bethekey.8314

[Aaron.1294]

@Azure The Heartless.3261Well it sure isn't strong in 1v2. But it still very annoying to fight and very toxic for the game as it seems to be mechanically advance, but it is the opposite of it. (just saying putting a very strong damage mitigation mechanic on a spammable skills is just wrong and should never be a thing in this game).

@Neiuso.9806Protection isn't a problem. Never was. Barrier and Bladesworn heal are problematic. The fact that offensive side of healing skill is much worse than just waiting for heal shows how imbalanced the entire skill really is (it should never be this way to not make the class gameplay stale and bunkery). Unshakable Mountain should just be removed and replaced entirely. 

With Aegis thing they prob can't do it because shield master is coded to work on block - and if something hits aegis it blocks. What they should've done is remove aegis ENTIRELY from it and put diff things such as prot/evade/resistance and make them much more fluid. 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Aaron.1294

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, bethekey.8314 said:

This an interesting point. I don't think it's necessarily true that the best players want broken builds.

However, with the current imbalances in matchmaking, maybe broken damage builds are the only thing that allow the 1 good player to feel like they're influencing the match enough? It's so hard to carry 4 bad players with a support or tanky build. You don't have enough impact.

Yeah thats probably more like it, and I suppose a tilt toward DPS being the carry will always exists, or else its a sign nothing would die if all equally skilled teams. However, its clear that tilt is now more of a landslide in GW2. I think the reasons is firstly the 3 point mode, it allows wins through mobility or 1v1, which can make support less important. Secondly, the duo system, 2 coordinated high dps specs on mics, in a pug with nobody communicating? their target is dead. I never did understand why that was ever deemed ok. Lastly, the wide mmr range putting silver dps agains high gold etc.. no amount of support is pulling that out the bag. So its kind of no suprise now that support is like 5%? representation, and burst/high dps-mobility is around 60% or more.

 

I frequently see more games over the last weeks where their were no support. Over the last days, their seem to be a rise in coregaurd supports.. which I don't find suprising giving their higher natural face tank ability for the enevitable stunlocks and bursts. However, I don't think I like a meta where core gaurd is the goto support, no offense to core garuds but its the kind of passive face tank that creeps into bladesworn territory, its not fun to throw dps at it, that would kill most others, and they didn't dodge once.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Remove the ammo from Combat Stimulant.