Mabye scarlet was not a evil person!

[mandala.8507]

8 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Dude's practically a war criminal with his actions. He also claims Scarlet saw the Eternal Alchemy, when what she witnessed was The All - and yes, they are different, as The All is about the magical balance system of Tyria, and the Eternal Alchemy is the philosophical view that all things in existence, even external Tyria, are connected. 

Nothing in the game agrees with you on this ("in my opinion").

From the story journal entry for the End of Dragons Interlude chapter:

Quote

It wasn't easy to hear what Aurene had to tell me: she's leaving. Taking her place as the conduit for the magical balance of Tyria; the Eternal Alchemy; the All...whatever. I knew that this day would come, that this was what we've been preparing her for. 

They're different names for the same thing.

14 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The "aura patterns" he talks about is just a way of saying that Mordremoth got to her. But her mind wasn't "literally broke" - as proven by the journals, and her own dialogue in LWS1. Vorpp is the textbook definition of an unreliable narrator.

Whoever convinced you that calling someone an unreliable narrator (whether they are one or not) is a universally valid analytical counterpoint needs severe admonishment.

Unreliable narrators can still tell the truth. Unethical people can still tell the truth. Prejudiced people can still tell the truth. Vorpp is telling the truth here.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

5 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Nothing in the game agrees with you on this ("in my opinion").

From the story journal entry for the End of Dragons Interlude chapter:

They're different names for the same thing.

Then the interlude chapter is wrong. Look at the actual definition and not what others tell you to think. The definition for the Eternal Alchemy and that of The All are fundamentally different. The All is defined repeatedly throughout GW2 as Tyria's system of magic surrounding six bodies of power - the Elder Dragons - and their domains. The Eternal Alchemy, since day 1 of Eye of the North, has been defined as the interconnection of all things in eixstence, including that of the Six Gods - the latter being stressed in the Path of Revelations quest chain.

Vorpp calls it the Eternal Alchemy because Scarlet called it that. Scarlet called it that because that's what Omadd told her she'd see. And for a while, we called it that until we got told the name The All in S2.

Then the false usage of "Eternal Alchemy" for it vanished - I guess until suddenly it's back with Interlude. Though it wouldn't be out of character since only asura characters would recognize that it's a false equivalence.

And it's very possible that the false equivalence lies on the writers who defined them separately and differently but went "eh same thing after all". It wouldn't be the first time newer devs mess up on lore - like when Bjora Marches got norn called priests and got fixed (sans one overlooked "priest") once the devs were made aware of it - so if an error / inconsistency pops up, one shouldn't just accept it because that's what you just got told, but point out the error.

5 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Whoever convinced you that calling someone an unreliable narrator (whether they are one or not) is a universally valid analytical counterpoint needs severe admonishment.

Unreliable narrators can still tell the truth. Unethical people can still tell the truth. Prejudiced people can still tell the truth. Vorpp is telling the truth here.

Sure they could... doesn't mean they do though. My point isn't "Vorpp is lying". My point is "Vorpp has displayed particular racism against sylvari and Scarlet Briar both before and after this story beat, so his word cannot be taken as gospel".

Whoever convinced you that just because someone says something means it's absolutely true needs severe admonishment.

[mandala.8507]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Then the interlude chapter is wrong. Look at the actual definition and not what others tell you to think. The definition for the Eternal Alchemy and that of The All are fundamentally different. The All is defined repeatedly throughout GW2 as Tyria's system of magic surrounding six bodies of power - the Elder Dragons - and their domains. The Eternal Alchemy, since day 1 of Eye of the North, has been defined as the interconnection of all things in eixstence, including that of the Six Gods - the latter being stressed in the Path of Revelations quest chain.

Vorpp calls it the Eternal Alchemy because Scarlet called it that. Scarlet called it that because that's what Omadd told her she'd see. And for a while, we called it that until we got told the name The All in S2.

Then the false usage of "Eternal Alchemy" for it vanished - I guess until suddenly it's back with Interlude. Though it wouldn't be out of character since only asura characters would recognize that it's a false equivalence.

And it's very possible that the false equivalence lies on the writers who defined them separately and differently but went "eh same thing after all". It wouldn't be the first time newer devs mess up on lore - like when Bjora Marches got norn called priests and got fixed (sans one overlooked "priest") once the devs were made aware of it - so if an error / inconsistency pops up, one shouldn't just accept it because that's what you just got told, but point out the error.

6 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Whoever convinced you that calling someone an unreliable narrator (whether they are one or not) is a universally valid analytical counterpoint needs severe admonishment.

Unreliable narrators can still tell the truth. Unethical people can still tell the truth. Prejudiced people can still tell the truth. Vorpp is telling the truth here.

Sure they could... doesn't mean they do though. My point isn't "Vorpp is lying". My point is "Vorpp has displayed particular racism against sylvari and Scarlet Briar both before and after this story beat, so his word cannot be taken as gospel".

Whoever convinced you that just because someone says something means it's absolutely true needs severe admonishment.

No. You're asking me to believe you over the actual written story. I hope you understand how incredible that it. Hard pass.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

10 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

No. You're asking me to believe you over the actual written story. I hope you understand how incredible that it. Hard pass.

That's fine you disagree, but I do find it hilarious that you're so insistent on your deep research about the Void "always being a thing" but refuse to look more than surface deep when what's on the surface agrees with you.

[mandala.8507]

Just now, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

That's fine you disagree, but I do find it hilarious that you're so insistent on your deep research about the Void "always being a thing" but refuse to look more than surface deep when what's on the surface agrees with you.

Because the deeper reading of the situation also agrees with me.

To use the buzzwords you love so much, the Doylist explanation for why the writers have Vorpp say this to us is because the instance in question serves the explicit purpose of cumulating, summarizing, and contextualizing Scarlet's machinations from throughout the season. The narrative purpose of having Vorpp here is to have another party outside of Jory and Kasmeer to bounce our theories off of and explain the more technical aspects of the story that Jory and Kasmeer might not be qualified to inform us on.

He fits the same role as they do: a guide through the player's own investigation into the point of all these various clues concerning Scarlet's plan.

Just like Jory and Kasmeer, he corrects us if we come to the wrong conclusion about what each item is supposed to be clueing us in on and gives supplementary dialogue to flesh out the correct choice once we pick it.

There's simply no narrative purpose to having him obfuscate the truth here. And he even showcases his biases and lack of humility in some of the other dialogue in this instance, but it's more than apparent when precisely he is letting his hubris and predispositions get in the way of the truth and when he is not.

...And who are we to question Doyle himself? Silly Watson. 😏

[ugrakarma.9416]

On 9/5/2023 at 2:04 PM, Makuragee.3058 said:

Bare with me for a sec.

Maybe Scarlet was the anti-Hero that Tyria needed, she saw the eternal alchemy, maybe the chaos and destruction was just a way to unified Tyria so they could be ready for the dragon/void crisis. And since mordremoth was trying tocontrol her, maybe the path she took was the only way to achive it wihout mordremoth forcing her to stop. Ok Im probably looking to deep into it, but I love Scarlet character design. Would have been super cool in Soto to see a fractal where Scarlet didnt die and was still alive during the void crisis.

EoD ins't enough?

The entire Mai-Trin arc was about this "perhaps these bad ppl are not too bad, just misguided", and Ankha, even Joon stubbornness arc.

Some people complained about the trend of male characters being dumb or idiotic, but the mad woman plot is saturated too.

[ugrakarma.9416]

About Scarlet, ins't just intentions, but character mannerisms and behavior, is full of cruelty and sadism (have pleasure in see others suffering), so i don't think the idea of "shes just using wrong methods to a good goal" can save her............ shes is far worse than POF Balthazar and equal to Palawa Joko.

[Morvran.8265]

3 hours ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

About Scarlet, ins't just intentions, but character mannerisms and behavior, is full of cruelty and sadism (have pleasure in see others suffering), so i don't think the idea of "shes just using wrong methods to a good goal" can save her............ shes is far worse than POF Balthazar and equal to Palawa Joko.

Anet does love their Mary Sues though even if the community categorically rejected her at launch. She'll probably be redeemed, retconned and forced onto us later just like Mai.

[Kalavier.1097]

8 hours ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

EoD ins't enough?

The entire Mai-Trin arc was about this "perhaps these bad ppl are not too bad, just misguided", and Ankha, even Joon stubbornness arc.

Some people complained about the trend of male characters being dumb or idiotic, but the mad woman plot is saturated too.

 

5 hours ago, Morvran.8265 said:

Anet does love their Mary Sues though even if the community categorically rejected her at launch. She'll probably be redeemed, retconned and forced onto us later just like Mai.

 

I'd love to see how Mai Trin was redeemed and retconned given her very last showing was literally "She was a monster who did horrific things that could never be repaid, but she did save the city. One act of good doesn't erase what she did before" GW2 has never stepped away or reduced the evil Mai Trin did or was part of. In the end she started trying to do good and it killed her. They make it very clear the Lionguard/people of Lion's Arch will not forgive what Mai Trin helped bring upon their city.

And even player chosen dialogue can be "I don't think she was redeemed/made up for what she did"

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

13 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Because the deeper reading of the situation also agrees with me.

To use the buzzwords you love so much,

[...]

...And who are we to question Doyle himself? Silly Watson. 😏

I would say "I hope you see the irony" but I know you don't. I'll just quote the thing I most agree with of all your posts, directed back towards you from me:

"No. You're asking me to believe you over the actual written story. I hope you understand how incredible that it. Hard pass."

We all have our own interpretations. Ours just happen to disagree. But at least I'm not mocking those who disagree with me.

10 hours ago, Morvran.8265 said:

Anet does love their Mary Sues though even if the community categorically rejected her at launch. She'll probably be redeemed, retconned and forced onto us later just like Mai.

To be honest, Scarlet has been the only "Sue" character ArenaNet has used. I know people like to toss the term around a lot for other characters but that isn't true. Hell, they even backtracked on a lot of what made Scarlet a "Sue" character after the backlash of her initial reveal, especially in LWS1R, so she's even less of one than the massive Sueness she exhibits in the What Scarlet Saw short story, where she immediately loved/accepted by all, never lost even when she "lost", and her only suffering (or "suffering") was used to further increase her own standing in the narrative; this even carried over into the original Clockwork Chaos release (diminished a tad bit with the books added in LWS1R).

Though... thinking on it... Soo-Won actually does get pretty close to a Mary Sue. Immediately liked by everyone without explanation, made to be perfect except the specific flaws that make her even more liked by others. Even to the point of being named after a writer's mother. Huh...

That's still only two characters that I would consider "Sue"-like in some form.

That said, if they were going to retcon and redeem Scarlet, they'd have done it by now with EoD and LWS1R. Luckily, they didn't, because even if some players like Scarlet, enough don't that ANet knows redeeming Scarlet suddenly would be a very bad move.

As to whether Mai Trin was redeemed... that's literally debatable - to the point where ANet left the ability for players to choose yes or no (I would LOVE to see the metrics on that choice publicized if ANet actually used a variable flag for it!).

[mandala.8507]

37 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

We all have our own interpretations. Ours just happen to disagree. But at least I'm not mocking those who disagree with me.

No. Your interpretations are just far more often than not completely wrong and baseless, and I'm tired of it. Expect pushback from me when you make unsupported claims and pull nonsense out of thin air to prop up your petty grievances about the writing.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

And that's why I've blocked you previously and only decided to humor your responses to see if this would go different, but like Sajuuk, I've provided my view, and my sources, but you just end with mockery and dismissal and open declaration of future harassment.

And thus, I'll not bother responding to you again. You had your third chance.

[Lord Korag.8439]

On 9/6/2023 at 4:32 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Soo-Won: A while, yes. I created them as tools—mindless as Nature—to stay the Void's unrelenting push toward entropy...

She created them as mindless tools. Created to stave off the Void, yes, but created to work on a function not on a choice. Not once do the Elder Dragons ever acknowledge avoiding other types of magic, not once do they ever acknowledge the Void's existence or their purpose being different. For as we can see, in the end they were negatively affected, indeed...

But they were negatively affected because they never even tried. The entire narrative of the Elder Dragons is that they were endlessly greedy, and consumed magic without worry. 

You have thrown this out of the context. Later in the dialogue she states:

Soo-Won: They were all changing, as if some last piece of them lay dormant and one day awoke, forming who they really were...

Soo-Won: Until they were strangers to me, and too often at each other's throats. And my own.

It basically says she intended to create them as mindless tools, they, however, unexpectly developed own personalities, thus proven otherwise.

 

On 9/6/2023 at 4:32 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The madness did not begin with Zhaitan's death. Kralkatorrik was affected by Torment well before - and the very dialogue with his split personality is proof of it. Because the Torment drove Kralkatorrik to kill Glint, something he did not.

Kralkatorrik: Child of my child...

Kralkatorrik: I only hope that you never have to kill what you love.

And he killed Glint five years before Zhaitan's death.

The Elder Dragons had greedily consumed all magic and wiped out civilizations countless times - they began the dragonrise doing so, and we know of at least two prior dragonrises where they did so. And it was their endless greed and their affliction of Torment that led them to do this.

Kralkatorrik: Torment is blinding. It lies.

Kralkatorrik: Its pollution steals my sense.

Kralkatorrik: It promises: destroy everything and the pain will cease.

This dialogue of Kralkatorrik mirrors the mind of Kralkatorrik that Snaff encountered during the novel Edge of Destiny, during the moments that Kralkatorrik killed Glint. As confirmed in the Guild Chat accompanying War Eternal's release, the Torment did not begin with Zhaitan's death - the conflict of magic has existed in Kralkatorrik for several millennia. If the Elder Dragons were desperately trying to stay off the Void and never ate other domains of magic... Kralkatorrik would not have been driven to kill Glint.

I have never stated the madness has begun with the death of Zhaitan and of course Kralkatorrik was affected by the Torment before. It was all part of his personality form the very beginning. The magical imbalance only worsened his state. Also he does not say the Torment forced him to kill Glint, only that he had to kill her. It could be out of the blind fury caused by her betrayal, as he is, after all, Elder Dragon of fury; a born hunter.

As for the trying to stay off the Void. Actually the oposite is truth. They consumed the magic to ensure the Void would not grow stronger. Also the Void is a type of combination of all the Elder Dragon magic, 6 magics ---> 6 dragons to keep them separated. Before the death of Zhaitan there is no proof they stole each others magic, even more durning the original campaign before the actual Zhaitan killing, all the dragon magic we encounter always belongs to the dragon (minion types) we are dealing with. First magic merge can be seen durning HoT, when Mordremoth is able to use the death bodies in the pods, thanks of Zhaitan "leaving his post". Then Jormag and Primordus start using Death and Plant magic, again only after the death of Zhaitan and Mordremoth.

Kralkatorrik has a very nice sentence:

Kralkatorrik: Nothing terrifies an Elder Dragon.

He clearly states they are not going to stay off anything, even if it means his mind is falling apart. And mainly, why the hell would an Ancient Elder Dragon discuss with a mere mortal how or why should they run their "job"?!

You present the Elder Dragons nearly as a mindless and greedily hungry force. However, starting with the Mordremoth´s plot, the writters started giving them more human-like personas. They made them to speak personally. Allowing them to shift an natural disaster-like being into a deeper character. And it only escalated. Jormag was nearly a rhetorician. And Aurene and Soo-Won had more than several conversations. I bet even Primordus would get a more elaborated personality, if the last part of IBS wasn´t chopped off (he comments his weapons a bit, at least...) Should you hold your optic, you shall never be able to encompass the whole Elder Dragon problematic altogether.

Kralkatorrik belongs to the specific type of characters intentionally written with some kind health disability. Unlike the physical ailments (like the jade limbs, or Taimi´s legs) he represents mental illnesses. 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Lord Korag.8439

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

21 minutes ago, Lord Korag.8439 said:

You have thrown this out of the context. Later in the dialogue she states:

Soo-Won: They were all changing, as if some last piece of them lay dormant and one day awoke, forming who they really were...

Soo-Won: Until they were strangers to me, and too often at each other's throats. And my own.

It basically says she intended to create them as mindless tools, they, however, unexpectly developed own personalities, thus proven otherwise.

Sure, they gained personalities over time. But nothing ever once implies let alone states that they were - to quote - "never desired to consume the other types of magic" or that "They did so out of desperation to keep them contained" or even that "knew of the Void back then" or "believed the Void could[n't] be stopped should they loose control over the magic".

Nothing ever say they were aware of the Void, except for Soo-Won. And the fact they were created as mindless tools until they developed personalities on their own would suggest that Soo-Won never told them, or at least didn't intend to let them know initially.

Everything in the game - even in End of Dragons - shows that the Elder Dragons were greedily fulfilling their own personal goals that involved them ravishing the civilizations and killing each other. Even Soo-Won's own words mention that they tried to kill her.

Soo-Won: Until they were strangers to me, and too often at each other's throats. And my own.

Soo-Won: We have so little power over what our children become...

Soo-Won: One morning...they were gone...

And this mirrors the history IBS gave of Primordus and Jormag, and how Primordus hunted down Vlast and Aurene just after they were born. Simply put: If they were trying to kill each other, they could not have been after preventing the Void, because killing each other is how the Void releases. If their goals had any relation to the Void... it was that they were - either with intent or through being driven to do so - trying to release the Void.

And if you want to insist otherwise... I'd like to see some support for why you think this beyond "they consumed magic" - because that isn't really support, when they were consuming magic in a way that increased the Void's influence over them; as you seemingly agree with, with Kralkatorrik being affected by Torment before - speaking of which:

21 minutes ago, Lord Korag.8439 said:

I have never stated the madness has begun with the death of Zhaitan and of course Kralkatorrik was affected by the Torment before.

Hmm... re-reading your post, yes, that's my misinterpretation of what you meant by "The death of Zhaitan caused a rupture which they were trying to fix since then."

Though that sentence is still false, as the Elder Dragons never worked to fix any rupture - they were too engulfed in their own greedy goals of destruction and consumption, too far gone already even if they did know of the Void.

21 minutes ago, Lord Korag.8439 said:

Also the Void is a type of combination of all the Elder Dragon magic, 6 magics ---> 6 dragons to keep them separated. Before the death of Zhaitan there is no proof they stole each others magic, even more durning the original campaign before the actual Zhaitan killing, all the dragon magic we encounter always belongs to the dragon (minion types) we are dealing with. First magic merge can be seen durning HoT, when Mordremoth is able to use the death bodies in the pods, thanks of Zhaitan "leaving his post". Then Jormag and Primordus start using Death and Plant magic, again only after the death of Zhaitan and Mordremoth.

There actually is. Dragons consume Ley-lines.

In Season 3 Episode 2, Taimi's Game, Taimi and the Commander have this conversation:

Taimi: The chak feed off ley energy, right?

Taimi: And we know that each dragon has a "domain" when it comes to their magic; Zhaitan's was death, obviously.

Taimi: Well you know what's guaranteed to give chak a bad stomachache? Death magic!

Taimi: Spencer filters "death" out of ley energy!

<Character name>: So magic is almost like light? Broken up into a spectrum?

Taimi: That's a perfect way to think about it!

Taimi: Magic as we know it is like white light, composed of all the different types of dragon magic.

All magic is dragon magic, and ley-lines is the unfiltered combination of all six domains of dragon magic (how this differs from Void is a matter that still needs clarification tbh). And we have seen since Season 1, quite repeatedly, that the Elder Dragons feed on the ley-lines - in full, not merely siphoning off of the ley-lines, but consuming the whole of the ley-lines. Retroactively with the personal story too, as the Artesian Waters is more-or-less confirmed a ley-line hub too.

We see this in the Season 1 finale, when Scarlet redirects ley-lines directly into Mordremoth's mouth to wake it up. We see it again in Heart of Thorns with mordrem such as the Ley Energy Collector and the Mordrem Leyleecherand Mordremoth literally chomping on ley-line created islands in the Dragon's Stand meta, and we see it in Season 4 with Kralkatorrik in Descent where Kranky Kralky is eating not one nor two but three ley-lines to heal itself in Dragonfall, and then we see it once more in Dragonstorm, where Primordus and Jormag are using Ley Siphons.

This shows that the Elder Dragons don't just consume their magical domain, they consume ley-lines in their entirety. And there's nothing to show that they're filtering out their specific domain - especially since if they were, Primordus wouldn't have rushed over to Draconis Mons from the Shiverpeak Mountains just to nom up some Zhaitan and Mordremoth juice.

In fact, there's a very huge piece of lore that you're overlooking by claiming that the Elder Dragons only ever consumed their own magic. Namely, the random magic that we see dragon minions go after:

In the personal story and Orr open world, we know for a fact that Zhaitan was consuming magic from the temples throughout Orr and various random magical artifacts collected by the risen - this is the purpose of the Mouth of Zhaitan after all. Are you going to insist that ALL of that magic was death and shadow? Not a single drop of Life magic from the temple of Dwayna, or Fire magic from the temple of Balthazar?

In Season 2, we see Mordrem draining the Krytan Royal Locket, along with other unspecified relics the Durmand Priory has, and the entire waypoint system - are all of these utilizing Plant and Mind magic?

And if they weren't all Death and Shadow magic, why was Zhaitan the one consuming it - if his intent was to merely hold off Void with the others, shouldn't he have been passing off the Ice magic artifacts to Jormag, and the Fire magic artifacts to Primordus? Same with Mordremoth and the artifacts not being Plant and Mind magic.

21 minutes ago, Lord Korag.8439 said:

Kralkatorrik has a very nice sentence:

Kralkatorrik: Nothing terrifies an Elder Dragon.

He clearly states they are not going to stay off anything, even if it means his mind is falling apart. And mainly, why the hell would an Ancient Elder Dragon discuss with a mere mortal how or why should they run their "job"?!

This is a nice sentence.

It's also possibly a false sentence. Because Jormag pretty clearly fears Primordus throughout Icebrood Saga, and during Dragonstorm, Aurene says this:

Aurene: As long as Jormag is connected to the power of a champion and the Frozen, they will keep Primordus cowed.

Indicating that Primordus was actually fearful of Jormag.

Or at least, this is one possible interpretation constantly nagged to me by Kossage in our discussions. Either way, if the Elder Dragons were not going to stay off anything even if their minds fall apart... why was Jormag and Primordus hesitating to attack each other when they didn't have the clear upper hand or driven into a corner?

21 minutes ago, Lord Korag.8439 said:

You present the Elder Dragons nearly as a mindless and greedily hungry force. However, starting with the Mordremoth´s plot, the writters started giving them more human-like personas. They made them to speak personally. Allowing them to shift an natural disaster-like being into a deeper character. And it only escalated. Jormag was nearly a rhetorician. And Aurene and Soo-Won had more than several conversations. I bet even Primordus would get a more elaborated personality, if the last part of IBS wasn´t chopped off (he comments his weapons a bit, at least...) Should you hold your optic, you shall never be able to encompass the whole Elder Dragon problematic altogether.

I present the Elder Dragons as nearly mindless because that's how the game repeatedly states they are. I'm not saying they're completely mindless, hell I'd argue that Primordus is less mindless than the game presents with the constant claims throughout Champions that there is - for one quote in particular - "not a spark in the dragon's head". Throughout Champions, the destroyers show very clear displays of tactical thinking and reaction to current events, and Primordus, well, he cowed before Jormag when it was clear Jormag had the upper hand despite Braham and the Spirits of the Wild edging him to attack Jormag.

It is clear that Kralkatorrik and Primordus in particular are driven to madness, and as Jormag used the Frozen, they were too - hell there is a story step called Jormag's Madness to emphasize the point in case it wasn't clear enough in the dialogue.

And Mordremoth clearly wasn't the smartest cookie, even if they, like Jormag, could speak. If they were more than their vices and addictions to magic, then Mordremoth would have made sure NOT to actively antagonize the group that killed one of their kind - at least giving it as much effort as Jormag tried.

Or to put it simply: speaking != rationality.

I'm not - and never did - say they were natural disasters or wholly mindless beings, even if they started such like any good baby does. What I'm saying (and always said since 2012) is that they have their personal goals that are shown by their actions that do not simply settle at "consume magic, go sleep":

• Primordus actively tries to wipe out all life - including other dragons. Back in 2008 or so, it was said the Great Destroyer's purpose was to "wipe out all life on the surface" to herald the way for Primordus' awakening, and Primordus is the only one to not actively corrupt living beings. This all suggests Primordus seeks total genocide.
• Snaff reads Kralkatorrik's mind in Edge of Destiny and it responds with "corrupt everything, and what can't be corrupted, destroy" which mirrors Kralkatorrik's Torment in S4, while in S4 and EoD Kralkatorrik himself, unaffected by the Torment, is presented as someone who simply hates mortals and enjoys killing them.
• Jormag, well, I feel their motivation was rewritten (like the deep sea dragon's) after Season 4, personally. Before IBS, their motivation came off as being one that wanted to see a world where strength rules, given all the vocal Icebrood we met + the Sons of Svanir, but in IBS I feel it shifted to instead be that Jormag wanted to effectively "replace" Soo-Won as the Elder Mother. This is evident by how Jormag took on a motherly figure for Aurene at first, and is the only Elder Dragon with a similar design as Soo-Won (well, in the incomplete model and some IBS concept art we got of Jormag at least), and seeking to "preserve the world" which Soo-Won does but in a twisted way, and also according to Soo-Won, Jormag was the one to point out Zhaitan's changes to her, suggesting Jormag was the one that drove the wedge that separated the family apart.
• Mordremoth makes several statements, both directly and indirectly, of being "home" and the world itself, while Aerin is said by the Zephyrite Masters to have metnioned about destroying the world while serving Mordremoth, and Mordremoth actively replacing all living (and dead) beings suggests that Mordy's goal was effectively to become the sustaining life on the planet.
• Zhaitan's risen speak of the Mists as false and of life eternal, while the legendary weapons bring up how Zhaitan saw value in the ruined and broken bodies and wanted to give them life again - thus becoming perhaps the one fully consistent Elder Dragon persona from start to finish, and showing that Zhaitan effectively wanted mortals to live eternally like themselves... just in a twisted way... and by force.

21 minutes ago, Lord Korag.8439 said:

Kralkatorrik belongs to the specific type of characters intentionally written with some kind health disability. Unlike the physical ailments (like the jade limbs, or Taimi´s legs) he represents mental illnesses. 

I really wouldn't go that far, tbh. Kralkatorrik is much more equivalent to that racist grandpa that everyone tolerates. Every Elder Dragon suffers the same "mental illness" that Kralk has, and I REALLY don't think ArenaNet was intentionally creating such a huge faux pass as to paint one of their most dangerous and irredeemable villains as a representation of health disability.

[Forum Moderator.3419]

Hi Everyone,

Just a reminder to keep it civil. I've removed some posts.

Regards.

[Kossage.9072]

On 9/6/2023 at 7:23 PM, mandala.8507 said:

Can you share this supposed confirmation, because I'm not familiar with it.

And I was around for the original release. It was always apparent to me that Scarlet had a certain duality to her, even in the original release of season 1. It was never apparent to me that she started out a villain. I never saw that in her character, hence the actual difference in our point of view: which is that I'm disagreeing with you because I think you're incorrect.

Here you go. It was Scott McGough answering players' questions on the old-old GW2 forums in a lovely Lore Q&A thread. I wish we had either that kind of direct rapport between players and devs again where devs kept answering people's questions as the thread expanded, or at least the old "Dolyak Express" type of "answers" threads where a community manager would compile player questions for devs and would then share the devs' answers to those questions in a dedicated thread.🙂

Quote

Q: Is it possible for a Sylvari to be born mute, or blind ? Or with a severe handicap? Can they be mentally deficient ? What happens if a pod falls from the tree too early?

Scott McGough: It is entirely possible for a sylvari to be emerge from their pod mute, or blind, or otherwise physically challenged/disabled. I don’t believe there are any examples of this currently in game, but that’s down to the Pale Tree’s creation of new sylvari being so solid and reliable. If something injured a sylvari in the pod before they emerged, or if there was the human equivalent of a genetic quirk that affected them during gestation, it could happen.

I will also say that it’s possible for sylvari to be emerge from their pods with psychological problems (that can also develop after they emerge as a result of trauma, abuse, etc.). Ceara (who would become Scarlet), for example, emerged with and immediately demonstrated an extreme lack of empathy for others that, in humans, would be associated with antisocial or borderline personality disorder. (Source)

As for Scarlet's actual goals, I've always been in the camp where the short story "What Scarlet Saw" suggested Scarlet to be against both Mordremoth and the Pale Tree, pitting the two against one another to destroy both and thus free sylvari from their respective yokes so sylvari can be truly liberated as opposed to Soundless who can still fall prey to both Pale Tree (as devs confirmed that the Pale Mother can reach out to Soundless if she puts in enough effort) and Mordremoth's influence. In that sense you could view Scarlet as a villain (killing the Pale Tree and thus preventing new sylvari from being awakened) but on the other hand she could also be seen as a kind of antihero (wanting to end Dream and Ventari's Tablet influence via the death of their conduit Pale Tree and thus also silence the Nightmare which lurks within the Dream as well as Mordremoth so he could not corrupt sylvari either) who just wants to let sylvari truly follow their own path instead of Nightmare Court subjecting themselves to Nightmare's influence. 🙂

Quote

"So much makes sense now. The Pale Tree, the Nightmare Court, Caithe and Faolain...it's all part of a grand design.

"But I see the flaws in that design. My people don't have to take what we're given, or be what we were "born to be." No people do. We can change the rules...well, I can. And I'm going to." [...]

"I've learned so much," Scarlet continued. "Now I have to put that knowledge to use. An insurmountable challenge is rising, and my people have been called to meet it. We are compelled by our creator to do so.

"But I reject that call. I reject the notion that that I must choose the Dream or be lost to Nightmare. The forces that push us this way or that can be redirected. They can be set against one another to the detriment of both, and now I know how." [...]

Scarlet's voice rose as she went on. "I have a great deal of work ahead of me. I don't know what the world will be when I'm through, but I will very much enjoy finding out. Empires will fall, continents will burn, and when the conflagration is over, I'll be there to put my stamp on whatever new world this one becomes." (Source)

So yeah, based on this Scarlet was never good even when she set out to carry out her plan. She just wanted to give sylvari a true "tabula rasa" where the four influencers (Dream, Nightmare, Mordremoth and Pale Tree+Ventari's Tablet) couldn't dictate the paths sylvari should take anymore. Freedom in chaos and all that. 🙂

[mandala.8507]

4 hours ago, Kossage.9072 said:

Here you go. It was Scott McGough answering players' questions on the old-old GW2 forums in a lovely Lore Q&A thread. I wish we had either that kind of direct rapport between players and devs again where devs kept answering people's questions as the thread expanded, or at least the old "Dolyak Express" type of "answers" threads where a community manager would compile player questions for devs and would then share the devs' answers to those questions in a dedicated thread.🙂

Quote

Q: Is it possible for a Sylvari to be born mute, or blind ? Or with a severe handicap? Can they be mentally deficient ? What happens if a pod falls from the tree too early?

Scott McGough: It is entirely possible for a sylvari to be emerge from their pod mute, or blind, or otherwise physically challenged/disabled. I don’t believe there are any examples of this currently in game, but that’s down to the Pale Tree’s creation of new sylvari being so solid and reliable. If something injured a sylvari in the pod before they emerged, or if there was the human equivalent of a genetic quirk that affected them during gestation, it could happen.

I will also say that it’s possible for sylvari to be emerge from their pods with psychological problems (that can also develop after they emerge as a result of trauma, abuse, etc.). Ceara (who would become Scarlet), for example, emerged with and immediately demonstrated an extreme lack of empathy for others that, in humans, would be associated with antisocial or borderline personality disorder. (Source)

I'm not sure I would take the leap Konig did and say that being innately unempathetic and perhaps having a personality disorder is equal to being "born a villain".

There are plenty of characters who are innately destructive and lacking in empathy who become good. Just off the top of my head, Stitch from Lilo and Stitch comes to mind. He demonstrates innate villainous characteristics, but learns to be good and to care about others from his interactions with people on Earth. Ceara had the capacity for good, but the society she was born into was not interested in catering to complicated souls. The Pale Tree's lack of candor and hyperfixation on absolute goodness could be viewed as the root catalyst for much of the darkness in the hearts of her children, including in Ceara.

And perhaps I've made myself unclear, but I'm including the time before Ceara becomes Scarlet in my deduction that her character was not evil from the start, and I think Scott's insight from the old forum doesn't, in my mind, disprove that. Ceara was certainly antisocial and cared about her pursuit of knowledge above all else, but attributing that disposition alone to her eventual transformation into the villain Scarlet Briar requires one to ignore the forced mental schism and personality inflection point thrust upon her by the forces she encounters via Omadd's Machine.

5 hours ago, Kossage.9072 said:

In that sense you could view Scarlet as a villain (killing the Pale Tree and thus preventing new sylvari from being awakened) but on the other hand she could also be seen as a kind of antihero (wanting to end Dream and Ventari's Tablet influence via the death of their conduit Pale Tree and thus also silence the Nightmare which lurks within the Dream as well as Mordremoth so he could not corrupt sylvari either) who just wants to let sylvari truly follow their own path instead of Nightmare Court subjecting themselves to Nightmare's influence. 🙂

Quote

"So much makes sense now. The Pale Tree, the Nightmare Court, Caithe and Faolain...it's all part of a grand design.

"But I see the flaws in that design. My people don't have to take what we're given, or be what we were "born to be." No people do. We can change the rules...well, I can. And I'm going to." [...]

"I've learned so much," Scarlet continued. "Now I have to put that knowledge to use. An insurmountable challenge is rising, and my people have been called to meet it. We are compelled by our creator to do so.

"But I reject that call. I reject the notion that that I must choose the Dream or be lost to Nightmare. The forces that push us this way or that can be redirected. They can be set against one another to the detriment of both, and now I know how." [...]

Scarlet's voice rose as she went on. "I have a great deal of work ahead of me. I don't know what the world will be when I'm through, but I will very much enjoy finding out. Empires will fall, continents will burn, and when the conflagration is over, I'll be there to put my stamp on whatever new world this one becomes." (Source)

All these quotes you list are from after she emerges as Scarlet Briar, and at that point her path toward evil is a certainty.

But I still don't think it's fair to say "she was born a villain", even after reading Scott's words from all those years ago. Villainy was thrust upon her, and while she may have been an exquisite vessel for it, I don't see Scarlet Briar as Ceara's only possible future.

[mandala.8507]

8 hours ago, Kossage.9072 said:

I wish we had either that kind of direct rapport between players and devs again where devs kept answering people's questions as the thread expanded, or at least the old "Dolyak Express" type of "answers" threads where a community manager would compile player questions for devs and would then share the devs' answers to those questions in a dedicated thread.🙂

This is a community-instigated rift that we could have mended any time we wanted to. The community has simply chosen not to because they'd rather complain and play victim than ask sincere questions in exchange for sincere answers.

Arenanet developers who think this community can be talked to unguarded learn their lesson swiftly and mercilessly. And why would they want to talk to players who think so embarrassingly little of them? What does this community give them in return?

Nothing remotely worth the risk or effort, by my estimation.

[Kalavier.1097]

5 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

This is a community-instigated rift that we could have mended any time we wanted to. The community has simply chosen not to because they'd rather complain and play victim than ask sincere questions in exchange for sincere answers.

Arenanet developers who think this community can be talked to unguarded learn their lesson swiftly and mercilessly. And why would they want to talk to players who think so embarrassingly little of them? What does this community give them in return?

Nothing remotely worth the risk or effort, by my estimation.

This is sadly the ultimate truth.

Why should they interact with forums that accuse them of ruining the lore? Or being totally terrible at doing their jobs?

[Laken.9018]

Subjectively. That's up for debate based on what parameters you apply.
Objectively. Yes...very much so. She was a mass murderer by the end even if she didn't start as one or mean to be one.

[Morvran.8265]

On 10/1/2023 at 2:24 AM, Kalavier.1097 said:

This is sadly the ultimate truth.

Why should they interact with forums that accuse them of ruining the lore? Or being totally terrible at doing their jobs?

They could try not ruining the lore on purpose, maybe 🙂

[Kalavier.1097]

2 hours ago, Morvran.8265 said:

They could try not ruining the lore on purpose, maybe 🙂

Or you could actually understand that is your opinion and not objective fact, and learn ways to communicate without being nasty?

[Morvran.8265]

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Or you could actually understand that is your opinion and not objective fact, and learn ways to communicate without being nasty?

Anet systematically dismantling GW1 lore over the last decade is an objective fact.

Whether you like the new direction or not is the subjective part. I'm not telling you that you can't enjoy it.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

45 minutes ago, Morvran.8265 said:

Anet systematically dismantling GW1 lore over the last decade is an objective fact.

Whether you like the new direction or not is the subjective part. I'm not telling you that you can't enjoy it.

As someone who loves GW1 worldbuilding and lore and found himself disappointed with GW2 a lot, especially when it comes to lore surrounding the Six Human Gods and Cantha, I can firmly say you're overexaggerating the situation by a long shot on that "objective fact".

In fact, it's a rather subjective fact, because even the most "dismantling" additions I've seen some people argue that it isn't, in fact, "dismantling" but "going in a logical direction" (either logical for the change of writing culture, or for what they personally believe makes sense).

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, Morvran.8265 said:

Anet systematically dismantling GW1 lore over the last decade is an objective fact.

Whether you like the new direction or not is the subjective part. I'm not telling you that you can't enjoy it.

And who decides that is an objective fact? GW1 vets?

Cause I played all of GW1 as well. But oh wait, I enjoy GW2 so therefore my perspective of the issue is opinion while yours is fact, I suppose? Not how it works really.