Why is Invigorating Precision still unchanged in Competitive?

[itspomf.9523]

On the day of The Big Nerf (28 Feb 2022), Invigorating Precision went from 10% crit damage as healing (20% with Fury) to 4% / 6% respectively -- in PvE only.

Which is weird, because you'd think this should have been targeted at PvP / WvW, where healing is typically done by allies (or at least the zerg / boon ball in the latter), and allowing for high damage to heal large amounts of HP could potentially give teef an unfair advantage.

But in overworld PvE, where nobody cares but us filthy casuals?  Doesn't make sense to have a nerf which makes it worse than when the trait was introduced in 2014.

Edited September 21, 2023 by itspomf.9523
Clarification

[GewRoo.4172]

Probably bc the crit dmg in competitive is much lower than in PvE and so is the healing? Idk. Trait is ded in competitive anyways and the only niche I saw recently was on a S/D Core build.

[Curennos.9307]

Because enemies don't dodge in PvE. 5% damage from healing is pretty great when you're a full glass DPS build, but virtually nothing in PVP where your enemy is dodging, blocking, counter pressuring, and probably has protection and you have 11k base HP. Thief also isn't really a good zerger - not used as a support, no real aoe ranged damage that doesn't get wrecked by reflects, squishy in melee unless you sacrifice a chunk of stats to not implode, so it isn't really a problem in wvw either imo.

 I still think it should be 5% base, 10% in melee range in pve though. 'Have fury' is just a tacked on requirement that doesn't really add anything meaningful to the trait, and melee thieves could use the extra oomph.

[Dadnir.5038]

PvP simply don't offer opportunities for this traits to shine as much as PvE does.

[Stx.4857]

Invigorating precision has been absolutely terrible since they gutted it to 6%.  You would never use this trait in groups, and while solo power thief does very low damage so the healing isn’t effective or even noticeable.  You are much better off running no quarter for the huge damage increase and finding your survival elsewhere.  
 

as for PvP, is it an issue there?  I wouldn’t think the healing would be that great even at 20% just due to how damage is dealt in PvP.  

Edited September 22, 2023 by Stx.4857

[DeceiverX.8361]

It's barely passable in PvP.  Issue is the GM trait slot for CS is where the rest of the actually-valuable traits are, and if you're playing CS, you're not getting into sustained fights where the heal will make a dramatic difference.  It's left as-is because fundamentally it's a PvE trait and PvP damage is lower being much less cooperative and much less harder to actually deal damage.

20% in PvE was too high for the current state of the powercreep.  In higher-tier play it'd basically heal a full health bar every 2.5 seconds by doing nothing but attacking.  It currently operates close to a second heal skill by the numbers in terms of downtime.

These kind of interactions are why powercreep is bad.  20% was passable when top-tier DPS was 25k (realistically closer to 10-15k for unoptimized groups) and thieves ran around with 11k HP, area protection was rare, and other sources of mitigation didn't exist while they could get one-tapped by bosses pretty easily.

20% is an unacceptable number when dealing 40-50k DPS and running around with 20k HP with a much bigger safety net and mass-protective boons and effects.

Edited September 23, 2023 by DeceiverX.8361

[cyberzombie.7348]

On 9/21/2023 at 12:35 PM, itspomf.9523 said:

Which is weird, because you'd think this should have been targeted at PvP / WvW, where healing is typically done by allies (or at least the zerg / boon ball in the latter), and allowing for high damage to heal large amounts of HP could potentially give teef an unfair advantage.

Nah, as someone that used it in both PvP/WvW between 2016-2019 it already been hard nerfed second-handily from all the power damage nerfs.

[itspomf.9523]

On 9/23/2023 at 3:43 PM, DeceiverX.8361 said:

These kind of interactions are why powercreep is bad.  20% was passable when top-tier DPS was 25k (realistically closer to 10-15k for unoptimized groups) and thieves ran around with 11k HP, area protection was rare, and other sources of mitigation didn't exist while they could get one-tapped by bosses pretty easily.

20% is an unacceptable number when dealing 40-50k DPS and running around with 20k HP with a much bigger safety net and mass-protective boons and effects.

Thank you, as I think this actually answers why it ever happened.  It also further underscores why it feels like Thief has had to suffer simply because a few players are able to achieve really high damage.

[hugeboss.5432]

Invigorating Precision was a trait I loved and used in a "fair" amount of builds years ago. The problem was that you could solo lots of content intended for groups & certain bosses easily. High crits + constant feedingback heals + fury buff uptime. You could tank bosses with great dps & sustain sitting at 90-100% health during entire fights... solo! It was a godlike dps siphoning type tank that a bunch of us used 😄 

Another factor is that NPC mobs don't normally dodge, so the dps + heals were really effective. It had to be nerfed really, or lots of content would be trivial to solo. Healers didn't really exist before either (only blastable waterfields for the most part + guard staff etc), so they prolly had to make space+demand for the new healer roles too.

The original vision was that "everyone should provide their own healing" & can run around smacking stuff up instead.

 

 

[Stx.4857]

22 hours ago, hugeboss.5432 said:

Invigorating Precision was a trait I loved and used in a "fair" amount of builds years ago. The problem was that you could solo lots of content intended for groups & certain bosses easily. High crits + constant feedingback heals + fury buff uptime. You could tank bosses with great dps & sustain sitting at 90-100% health during entire fights... solo! It was a godlike dps siphoning type tank that a bunch of us used 😄 

Another factor is that NPC mobs don't normally dodge, so the dps + heals were really effective. It had to be nerfed really, or lots of content would be trivial to solo. Healers didn't really exist before either (only blastable waterfields for the most part + guard staff etc), so they prolly had to make space+demand for the new healer roles too.

The original vision was that "everyone should provide their own healing" & can run around smacking stuff up instead.

 

 

This…. Isn’t really accurate.  Power thief builds back before the nerf could only deal about 9k dps solo.  And while invigorating precision could keep your health up, power builds are still zero toughness and so still susceptible to dying from lots of enemies or champs that hit hard.  Condition builds on the other hand are tougher, and could sustain just as well as power with invigorating precision because of traits in shadow arts and also deal more damage in the 12k range.  

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

Thief needs nice things too! 😞 

[Einlanzer.1627]

It maybe needed a nerf, but they massively overdid it. It should probably be tuned around 6% normal and 10% with fury.

[Twilightmage.8309]

Meanwhile I can just stay alive forever on my rev or guardian with little effort in harder content while i have to practice the 5 d's of dodgeball on deadeye and still die.

[FrancisN.9276]

21 hours ago, Twilightmage.8309 said:

Meanwhile I can just stay alive forever on my rev or guardian with little effort in harder content while i have to practice the 5 d's of dodgeball on deadeye and still die.

Or I can play Reaper, enter Shroud, press 4 and everything starts to die while I sit unkillable on a pile of corpses.

They need to bring Invigorating Precision back to be balanced with other current classes. As they say, if everyone gets buffed but you don't, it is equal to you getting a nerf.