It's flamethrower again.

[Arantheal.7396]

Returning player here.
Remember all the yadda about "engineer can't have nice things because we have all the kits in the world"?
Well, lets look at one. My conceptionally favorite child, the trusty flamethrower.
We have to commit a utility slot to swap into it, so it should actually make a difference big enough to build around, or focus on, right? Well, the Moloch trait f.e. appears like that might [pun not intended] be a good idea, as it wants me to camp flamethrower on paper, anyways. But if I just swap into it for a quick #4 & #2, or a cc with #3, followed by a #2, I'm off to other kits or my weapon, before it even ticks once, since it takes 3 seconds initial warmup for it to grant me the first tick.
Ok I guess at that point, according to a-net's balancing decissions, I really should stay in it for 3 seconds at least, to get the sweet benefit of a trait they put in grandmaster-tier in firearms, right? Well, [insert laughing track here] if I stay in it for that long, all I can do is fire a horrible AA, with long cast and wet noodle damage, turning the moloch trait into an absolute mockery to anyone picking it, since not even casting #4, #2, and #3 in quick succession would take me long enough to stay in this shitshow of a kit long enough, to get this tick even once.

Please A-net, as requested SO OFTEN. Please turn me into a happy napalm enjoyer and either fix (by which I mean BUFF) Flamethrowers AA after all these years, or turn the moloch trait into something a twitchy kit swapper would deem worthwhile to pick. Even tho I'd still love to see happy engis, spewing their warm, engulfing love everywhere one day, moloch could be fixed by as little as removing its 3 seconds delay on the first tick. 

[jason.1083]

2 words, Geneva Convention.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

thay could buff it in pvp/wvw at last, sciene thay joinked quickness

Edited September 23, 2023 by Noah Salazar.5430

[wasss.1208]

4 hours ago, Noah Salazar.5430 said:

thay shold buff it in pvp/wvw at last, sciene thay joinked quickness

For the confused people: "They should buff it in pvp/wvw at least, since they joinked quickness."

[Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365]

one thing id like to see on the flame thrower is nr4 skill to work abit like elementalist warhorn fire5 "wildfire"
the current FT4 is virtually useless unless u try to use it for combos

[Dirame.8521]

6 hours ago, Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:

one thing id like to see on the flame thrower is nr4 skill to work abit like elementalist warhorn fire5 "wildfire"
the current FT4 is virtually useless unless u try to use it for combos

Ft #4 isn't useless at all.

Immob a fool and drop it under them, then thumper turret them for extra saltiness. 

Place it on a downed target that someone is trying to rez to guarantee their exercise in futility

And of course, as you mentioned, blast it for more might.

Many times if I land Ft #4 + immob it's GG

[SeTect.5918]

7 hours ago, Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:

one thing id like to see on the flame thrower is nr4 skill to work abit like elementalist warhorn fire5 "wildfire"
the current FT4 is virtually useless unless u try to use it for combos

To be fair ele also has a skill which is exactly like engis flamethrower 4, which on ele is focus 4.

I agree skills like that are kinda trashy tho because enemies just have to take 1 step and all other potential Hits go nowhere. These skills should be simply made circles with a specific radius and they fine instead of this trashy "wall".

1 hour ago, Dirame.8521 said:

Ft #4 isn't useless at all.

Immob a fool and drop it under them, then thumper turret them for extra saltiness. 

Place it on a downed target that someone is trying to rez to guarantee their exercise in futility

And of course, as you mentioned, blast it for more might.

Many times if I land Ft #4 + immob it's GG

I know u r talking about pvp/wvw, it Doesn't work in pve tho. 90% of times i use it on bosses they take 1 step and they out of it. Kinda crappy. I m always glad if i face bosses with low amount of movement because this skill actually deals immense damage IF it hits all. 

 

But they wont ever change it anyway. 

I mean engis Been saying that kits are outdated since years. Even their related traits are outdated. But they didnt Touch them at all in all these years, i dont have hope. 

Edited September 23, 2023 by SeTect.5918

[Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365]

50 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

To be fair ele also has a skill which is exactly like engis flamethrower 4, which on ele is focus 4.

I agree skills like that are kinda trashy tho because enemies just have to take 1 step and all other potential Hits go nowhere. These skills should be simply made circles with a specific radius and they fine instead of this trashy "wall".

I know u r talking about pvp/wvw, it Doesn't work in pve tho. 90% of times i use it on bosses they take 1 step and they out of it. Kinda crappy. I m always glad if i face bosses with low amount of movement because this skill actually deals immense damage IF it hits all. 

 

But they wont ever change it anyway. 

I mean engis Been saying that kits are outdated since years. Even their related traits are outdated. But they didnt Touch them at all in all these years, i dont have hope. 

wouldnt even work in any of the competitive modes- idk what the guys been smoking but it deals virtually no power damage and only applies 1 burn per tick which isnt gonna stack fast enough for any1 to be pressured by even if they're afk.
Not to mention the point you made about the area size being so increadibly small that you could just take 1 step to the side and its gonna be completely wasted.

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

To be fair ele also has a skill which is exactly like engis flamethrower 4, which on ele is focus 4.

I agree skills like that are kinda trashy tho because enemies just have to take 1 step and all other potential Hits go nowhere. These skills should be simply made circles with a specific radius and they fine instead of this trashy "wall".

I know u r talking about pvp/wvw, it Doesn't work in pve tho. 90% of times i use it on bosses they take 1 step and they out of it. Kinda crappy. I m always glad if i face bosses with low amount of movement because this skill actually deals immense damage IF it hits all. 

 

But they wont ever change it anyway. 

I mean engis Been saying that kits are outdated since years. Even their related traits are outdated. But they didnt Touch them at all in all these years, i dont have hope. 

The previous balance lead didn't like kits and deliberately neglected them.

Mind you, it's been long enough with the new team that they could have done something, so the difference might just be that they haven't been outed yet. Or they might just have been too busy with other problems.

[Arantheal.7396]

Dug into the numbers to really kitten myself off...

rifle 1     Damage: 190 (0.45)    Number of Targets: 5    Pierces      Combo Finisher: Physical Projectile (20% chance)     Range: 1,200
rifle 2        Damage: 253 (0.6)     Number of Targets: 5     Radius: 120     Explosion                        Range: 1,200
sequence:    ~1.13 seconds / 0.88 aps

FT AA:        Damage: 10x89 (0.25)    Burning (4s): 524 Damage    Attacks per Second: 5     Range: 425
sequence:     2.57 seconds

Power: 3464 (ascended berserker | +5 might infusions | food buffs)

FT AA: 770,74 per 2.57 seconds, or 299,8 dps + a single stack of burning (4s) on the last tick of a 2.57 seconds channel (insert laughing track here)
Rifle AA: 260,6 dps + 462,7 dps = 723,3 dps

Now take into account that power sclaing in wvw isn't 0.25, but only 0.2, and pvp gets completely kittened with a 0.15 scaling...

Taking in precision + ferocity at this point does virtually nothing to better point out the bs going on with these stats, but you know what does?
Looking at what interactions you get. (It gets very, very sad)

Rifle:
you get a projectile finisher (20% chance to activate any and all combo fields), and a explosion tag (not a combo finisher) on the second attack of the AA, interacting with all of these:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Explosion#Related_traits
You get a range of 1200
You hit up to 5 targets (piercing, in line of the first shot, and 120 impact range on the second)
Edit: and you also get to activate Aim-Assisted Rocket consistently.

FT?
Well, you have roughly a 3rd of the range, hit only 3 targets at max, and have no special trait interaction whatsoever, that you couldn't get with any other kit or weapon.
Ok, tbf, you have 10 chances to critically hit within 2.57 seconds, quite some engi traits interact with crits, and that is at least something for low precission builds, but then again, rifle gets 4 to 5  chances in the same time, too...

Yea.
A-Net!? You there?
Cause at this point, we could not just need a Buff, but an entire rework over here.

Increasing its powerscaling up to 0.5, to account for its lesser range and target numbers, is a must imo, and I gladly get rid of its burning here, to offload it into its other skills, or at the very least, get it on the first tick. After getting showered by a fiery bright flame animation for 2 and a half seconds, even my dead grandma would have dodged or get away from me. Seriously, she even got nervous around open candles. Certainly a trait I didn't inherit.
Maybe slap the elixier tag onto some of the FT skills. Currently only interacts with HGH, but getting +20% burn duration that way, would be nice synergy. And lorewise, just look at the Research quest for H.O.P.E. Spewing fire is certainly alchemy territory.
Maybe get rid of its ten pulses, and turn it into 3, for a shorter cast, and drastically higher damage per pulse.
Dunno, do SOMETHING, we beg you.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Arantheal.7396

[draxynnic.3719]

Could model it off Drake's Breath on ele dagger: four pulses, each pulse inflicts Burning. Probably shouldn't be quite as strong as Drake's Breath since that isn't an AA, but the general principle applies.

Would lose out a bit on on-hit procs, but it's probably a trade worth making.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

I would rework FT personally so it becomes a pure condi build.

 

FT 2 and 3 are IMO fine, but FT AA FT 4 and FT5 definitely need a rework. I would love for FT AA to give 1 sec of burning for each pulse and the final pulse give a higher duration burn. You can nerf the coefficient if you want I dont exactly care, it's already low to begin with.

FT 4 should be have a wider radius, ideally that would hit in a cone shape and leave a firefield.

 

FT 5 IMO should be given a blast finisher and I would add an extra effect that reduces the CD of all other FT skill by 3 sec (FT5 is not affected by its own effect).

[Arantheal.7396]

Here are my thoughts on FT changes, after having hunched over the numbers for 2 days.
Auto Attack:
EITHER AA version 1: power scaling increased to 0.5, does 15% more dmg to buring targets. still has a sequence of 2.57 seconds, still hits 10 times with 89, and yes, still applies its burn on the last tick.
OR AA version 2: power scaling increased to 0.5, does 15% more strike dmg to burning targets, sequence (channel and aftercast animation combined) reduced to 1.33 seconds (in line with rifle), 3 pulses with 155 dmg each, last pulse doing 1 stack of burning (3s) (slightly above rifle, to account for lesser amounts of possible targets, and way smaller range of 450).
Purpose: With a slight margin, it turns the FT AA into the 2nd strongest power AA we have (1st is still bombkit). it would be the go to kit to camp in between cd's (if you have targets in that very short range), and that is ok, because juggernaut wants us to camp in it, anyways. Considering the fact that we go with one utility slot less for opting into it, it's a fair trade.

#2: power scaling increased to 1.0, strike dmg increased to 300, for both the projectile and the impact. Restore its original mechanic, of being a traveling projectile that can be blown up manually. Remove 1 stack of burning on the explosion.
It would still do less dmg than blunderbus, but considering its utility (explosion tag, piercing, blast finisher, 5 targets hit), that's totaly fine.

#3: add frontal projectile reflect during its cast animation.
It was a nod to tf2's pyro from the beginning, and a pyro not relfecting rockets with his airblast is a dumb pyro^^
Jokes aside, now you get the choice of cc'ing and burning close range targets with its cd, and/or invest its cd into some defense against ranged pressure.

#4: (now smoke vent) functionally becomes the same as smoke bomb from autodefense bomb dispenser, and still can be triggered while being stunned. 
Yes, this could get some salt from CC heavy builds in WvW and PvP, but with all the cc flying around these days, some counterplay is much needed. And if it turns out to be OP, I rather see autodefense bomb dispenser be turned into a low cd, single blind burst, activated automatically via that trait, and have access to more powerful skills via manual activation. And with bombkit's smoke bomb, we had ample active access to stealth and pulsing blinds anyways. 

#5: (now napalm) Field shape is turned from a wall to a circle (240 radius), 600 range, 75 dmg with a 1.0 power scaling, lasts 8 seconds, 2s burn per pulse, and as a kicker for a 25sec cd: applies crippled to targets that already suffer from burning.

Thoughts (and prayers)?
 

[Arantheal.7396]

27 minutes ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

I would rework FT personally so it becomes a pure condi build.

 

FT 2 and 3 are IMO fine, but FT AA FT 4 and FT5 definitely need a rework. I would love for FT AA to give 1 sec of burning for each pulse and the final pulse give a higher duration burn. You can nerf the coefficient if you want I dont exactly care, it's already low to begin with.

FT 4 should be have a wider radius, ideally that would hit in a cone shape and leave a firefield.

 

FT 5 IMO should be given a blast finisher and I would add an extra effect that reduces the CD of all other FT skill by 3 sec (FT5 is not affected by its own effect).

Yea, with elixier gun, nades and mortar, we really don't need another condi heavy kit, besides, you can't "nerf a coefficient" for flamethrower only, because burn stays the same for all builds across all classes, unless individual traits / runes / sigils modify it for your entire character.
A burn on each pulse got proposed before, but even in theory rejected by the community, since even a 1 second burn can become a 2 second burn between corresponding trait / sigil / rune combinations, giving you a AA that has the potential to tick with 10 stacks of burn active.
Simply NOPE, you don't want to play against that.

Your ideas for #4 and #5 are more reasonable, tho.

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

I for one would like to see flamethrower brought up to current game standards. There has been so much power creep over the years and the kit remains mostly untouched. At the very least it should cleave 5 targets, if not more, it's a flamethrower for goodness sake. That would at least help make up for the pitiful damage. Also being a kit that encourages you to camp it with the grandmaster firearms trait, it really wants to be built around.

Just to note, for anyone initially confused, "Moloch" is German for "Juggernaut".

[Alcatraznc.3869]

1 hour ago, Arantheal.7396 said:

Yea, with elixier gun, nades and mortar, we really don't need another condi heavy kit, besides, you can't "nerf a coefficient" for flamethrower only, because burn stays the same for all builds across all classes, unless individual traits / runes / sigils modify it for your entire character.
A burn on each pulse got proposed before, but even in theory rejected by the community, since even a 1 second burn can become a 2 second burn between corresponding trait / sigil / rune combinations, giving you a AA that has the potential to tick with 10 stacks of burn active.
Simply NOPE, you don't want to play against that.

Your ideas for #4 and #5 are more reasonable, tho.

Elixir gun is trash at doing condi and it's not it's main purpose to begin with. Grenade is a hybrid that forces you into picking grenadier to be used and explosive trait line is mostly a power branch than condi and mortar is also trash at doing condi damage, it is mostly for power damage and only has 1 poison field.

 

FT is the only kit right now that fill the condi requirement because it can apply burn which is arguably the strongest raw condi. But to apply burn right now you have to cast FT 2 and hope you hit your target and then maintain it somehow by spamming auto attack + 3. Another weakness of the FT is that it only apply 1 stuff : burn. Which means it's very easy to dispell. Dont get me wrong I dont think this should be changed especially considering it's burn we're talking about but it is still a weakness worth mentionning. Guardian also have to deal with that but they have so many skills that generate burn that condi guardian could be playing power guardian, at the speed of which it applies burn you wouldnt notice the difference. 

 

I still think the auto attack should apply burning on each pulse but just enough so that it tick once and disappear, with only the last pulse having longer duration. It would fit the theme of the kit without being OP...well if you consider this OP then I would suggest you look at Elementalist scepter because its auto attack apply a decent amount of burning while being a 900 skill with hitscan.

[Matoro.9708]

In pvp, a lot of the time you'll notice you've been downed by 80k+ burn stacks, despite cleansing harder than a brain surgeon pre-op. So funny that many classes get to burn ludicrously more than the vietnam special. Holosmith has some burning thrown around, but in general, engi is ironically lacking access to a lot of burn stacks.

Clearly most people here prefer power, but thematically, it isn't the force of the napalm that kills you so much as your face melting off.

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

Just now, Matoro.9708 said:

In pvp, a lot of the time you'll notice you've been downed by 80k+ burn stacks, despite cleansing harder than a brain surgeon pre-op. So funny that many classes get to burn ludicrously more than the vietnam special. Holosmith has some burning thrown around, but in general, engi is ironically lacking access to a lot of burn stacks.

Clearly most people here prefer power, but thematically, it isn't the force of the napalm that kills you so much as your face melting off.

Burning on every damage tick! 🔥🔥 🔥🔥 🔥🔥 🔥🔥 🔥🔥 🔥🔥 🔥🔥 🔥 🔥🔥 🔥🔥 🔥🔥 😈

[Arantheal.7396]

Just now, Matoro.9708 said:

In pvp, a lot of the time you'll notice you've been downed by 80k+ burn stacks, despite cleansing harder than a brain surgeon pre-op. So funny that many classes get to burn ludicrously more than the vietnam special. Holosmith has some burning thrown around, but in general, engi is ironically lacking access to a lot of burn stacks.

Clearly most people here prefer power, but thematically, it isn't the force of the napalm that kills you so much as your face melting off.

Here's a change that throws a nuclear wrench into the burn creep:
Chill cleanses burning, and burning cleanses chill on a target.

Commence the salt farming xD

[Arantheal.7396]

1 hour ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

I still think the auto attack should apply burning on each pulse but just enough so that it tick once and disappear, with only the last pulse having longer duration. It would fit the theme of the kit without being OP...well if you consider this OP then I would suggest you look at Elementalist scepter because its auto attack apply a decent amount of burning while being a 900 skill with hitscan.

yea, no.
Scepter hitscans and maintains about 2 stacks of burning on 900 range before condi duration buffs.
You did take its stationary effect into account, which has a range of 90 and a 1 second delay, and stays behind on ground. Not going to happen in PvP, because everyone and their mother can just sidestep out of it (and does so), unless you spend cd's to immobilize your target, or you pressure someone already in downstate. FT can do the same, by throwing a napalm in their face once we trapped / downed them. No need to stack up 5 to 10 stacks of burning on FT AA. Even if you want to turn it into a condi build, it's AA should be limited to 2 stacks of burning at maximum.
 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Arantheal.7396

[Arantheal.7396]

25 minutes ago, Matoro.9708 said:

In pvp, a lot of the time you'll notice you've been downed by 80k+ burn stacks, despite cleansing harder than a brain surgeon pre-op. So funny that many classes get to burn ludicrously more than the vietnam special. Holosmith has some burning thrown around, but in general, engi is ironically lacking access to a lot of burn stacks.

Clearly most people here prefer power, but thematically, it isn't the force of the napalm that kills you so much as your face melting off.

You know, another thought, with the current inner workings of flamethrower AA; power is not only a prefference here, but also the only option I see for it.
You'd need to reduce burn ticks in duration to a fraction of a second, and even tho this is possible for the engine to track and calculate realtively lag free, you'd have zero build up, or at least your stacks are gone once you swap out for other cd's. No build up of burn, and therefore no option of covering it up, leaves you with an AA that scales with condi damage, and for all intents and purposes behaves like a power weapon, ceasing to pressure your target as soon as you cease to press its button.
Cleanse wouldn't be valid counterplay against it anymore, because it simply reapplies its burn instantly (and yes, I get that there are quite a few classes who invalidate this counterplay, too - bad game design in my opinion), hence turning it OP (like so many kitten is already, these days).
And if it already behaves like a direct damaging weapon anyways, stay fair, let it scale with power, and therefore allow counterplay via toughness.
 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Arantheal.7396

[draxynnic.3719]

A couple of observations:

First, if you're running Firearms with decent crit chance, you're naturally going to generate a few bleeds through Sharpshooter. So it's not just about burning - if you had 100% crit (and firearms can give you 30% crit and contribute to fury uptime) you'll get an average of three bleeds per AA channel.

Second, one of the classic Juggernaut builds is based on Scrapper as the elite specialisation. Since Scrapper's barrier generation relies on strike damage, I think it would be a shame if flamethrower wasn't a decent hybrid.

Edited September 26, 2023 by draxynnic.3719

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

22 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

A couple of observations:

First, if you're running Firearms with decent crit chance, you're naturally going to generate a few bleeds through Sharpshooter. So it's not just about burning - if you had 100% crit (and firearms can give you 30% crit and contribute to fury uptime) you'll get an average of three bleeds per AA channel.

Second, one of the classic Juggernaut builds is based on Scrapper as the elite specialisation. Since Scrapper's barrier generation relies on strike damage, I think it would be a shame if flamethrower wasn't a decent hybrid.

I have played Juggerscrapper and while I love the build and think it has great synergies, it just isn't that strong in reality. Perma-stability, might stacks, barrier, on paper it's great.

In practice though, the barrier from auto attacking is enough to maintain a couple of hundred points of barrier at best, the damage is very low and doesn't even cleave 5 targets, and the stability is only a single stack which isn't enough to really do much as it is easily overcome with just two hard CC in quick succession.

The best use I have personally come up with on such a build is maybe to run as a zerg commander with a full bunker build against opponents that like to try and pull commanders. Even then there are probably much better options to lead with.

I want it to be good, it's just, not that good.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

I have played Juggerscrapper and while I love the build and think it has great synergies, it just isn't that strong in reality. Perma-stability, might stacks, barrier, on paper it's great.

In practice though, the barrier from auto attacking is enough to maintain a couple of hundred points of barrier at best, the damage is very low and doesn't even cleave 5 targets, and the stability is only a single stack which isn't enough to really do much as it is easily overcome with just two hard CC in quick succession.

The best use I have personally come up with on such a build is maybe to run as a zerg commander with a full bunker build against opponents that like to try and pull commanders. Even then there are probably much better options to lead with.

I want it to be good, it's just, not that good.

Largely correct, but it's never going to be good if flamethrower is reworked as a pure condi weapon (unless the barrier is allowed to trigger on condi damage too) - which was the point I was making.

As an aside, I'd also note that while one stack of stability might not do a lot in competitive modes, in PvE meta events it can allow you to ignore most CC.

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

15 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

(unless the barrier is allowed to trigger on condi damage too)

That would be an interesting change, seeing as the flamethrower does thematically feel like it should be a condi weapon.

 

15 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

As an aside, I'd also note that while one stack of stability might not do a lot in competitive modes, in PvE meta events it can allow you to ignore most CC.

Yes, agreed.

If it was condi focused with a 5 target cleave on the auto attack it would actually be quite a fun and effective weapon in scaled-up open world events with lots of adds.

Competitively I think maybe it needs more of a CC element to it, or more functional area denial, since it's never going to be a single target DPS powerhouse. Perhaps more use in WvW where larger numbers of players would allow it to shine.