Why Balance Patches are Professional Raiders skills dedicated ?

[soulknight.9620]

3 hours ago, Supernova Starr.2069 said:

They can't develop classes both casuals and high-end players can play in a equal level. It's impossible.

They can, they did. Reaper for example. Mech is another good example. 

And its not about expecting casuals and average players to play a class on the level of high-end players. Its about being able to play a class at any level. Like high end players can take a reaper and do pretty well with it. A new player can take a reaper and get good results too. A new player will not have 41k dps like high-end players will, but he will be able to feel comfortable with it and get decent results. Now try the same experiment with something like a weaver or a thief. 
 

3 hours ago, LadyKitty.6120 said:

And when it comes to Arkk CM, the main thing during burns that someone needs to stop DPSing for is anomaly and the bomb bubble (and still, at least 2 DPS can just burn the boss). And if the squad is even somewhat decent, anomaly-bomb only happens 3-4 times during the boss (100%, 70%, 40%, 30%). At 80% and 50% you can just burn to miniboss to despawn the anomaly. For pretty much all other mechanics you can just dance around the boss and look away for half a second if needed (if support isn't stabbing/blocking the eye for you). Orbs? Bubble. Push? Trivago.

And yet you have to stop the dps to do these mechanics as a melee weaver for example. On the other hand you can still do the mechanics and keep dpsing on something like scourge, virtuoso etc. Which results in a discrepancy in dps. And ofc you can always theoricraft that "oh just bring a team that does everything perfectly", but its not how it happens most of the pug runs. Most of the times people tend to do mistakes, you get hit by the damage, people do spawn damaging puddles and not every support out there is a "support god". So you have to survive all of that on your own. Scourge, reaper, virtuoso has the necessary tools to do so (which are build in their dps builds) and some of other classes have none (like thief, ele).

Every mechanic that requires you to "spread" like Dark phase of 99CM, or that spawn a damaging puddles, a melee weaver looses its dps. As a scourge i could do the mechanic and not loose any dps. You can always say "hey just bring ranged dps spec like scepter condi weaver". Yeah, you could, but why nerf the melee weaver then? 

[Supernova Starr.2069]

1 hour ago, soulknight.9620 said:

They can, they did. Reaper for example. Mech is another good example. 

Now try the same experiment with something like a weaver or a thief. 

Then their design is working as intended. 

No class should be measured/balanced on how many players can play them in an average level. 

If a person really is interested in learning to play 'harder' classes, taking a few minutes to watch/read some guides shouldn't be a problem at all, and it's also a better option than asking devs to redesign a class because you can't play it properly. 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Supernova Starr.2069

[Obtena.7952]

15 hours ago, Theros.1390 said:

What percentage of the playerbase do a full Raid run each week in your opinion ?

Honestly, I have like zero idea how many that would be. But more importantly, why do you ask?

[DanAlcedo.3281]

20 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

The question is, on what basis does a build overperform? On what criteria? Buff, dps, tanking?

I know this is PvE, but in WvW I came across a scourge full barriere all the time, its life never went down, we were two on it alté and pure dps full barriere every time. I'm no expert but there are limits.

For Wvw, balance is mostly dictated by GvG guilds. 

Yes, this doesn't make sense but it's sadly true. 

Not because Anet is stupid per say, but who else you gonna ask for input in a game mode as chaotic as Wvw. 

Something being strong in small scale doesn't matter as it is an unsupported game type. 

Balance in large zergs only comes into play when there are extreme outliers. 

 

[soulknight.9620]

1 hour ago, Supernova Starr.2069 said:

Then their design is working as intended. 

No class should be measured/balanced on how many players can play them in an average level. 

You contradict yourself.

1 hour ago, Supernova Starr.2069 said:

If a person really is interested in learning to play 'harder' classes, taking a few minutes to watch/read some guides shouldn't be a problem at all, and it's also a better option than asking devs to redesign a class because you can't play it properly. 

Its not a matter of "learning" or "harder/easier". Its a matter of performance of a classes skill/trait kit. A simple common sense. If you have two options, one of them offers you less than the other, but for the same cost. Which would you get? Thats the current state of balance. For example weaver has dps potential to deal 41k dps and thats it. It has limited utility (cause all of the picked utility slots are aimed at dps if you want to get that 41k dps), limited sustain and a huge dependance on supports to get the job done. And you have a reaper that can do the same 41k dps, but has a free slot of utility to get anything you need, good on demand cc, great built in sustain/utility, ranged option, close to perma quickness (hence less dependant on supports). Im specifically pointing out that players skill is not a factor in this discussion since its quite subjective.  

[Supernova Starr.2069]

1 hour ago, soulknight.9620 said:

You contradict yourself.

Its not a matter of "learning" or "harder/easier". Its a matter of performance of a classes skill/trait kit. A simple common sense. If you have two options, one of them offers you less than the other, but for the same cost. Which would you get? Thats the current state of balance. For example weaver has dps potential to deal 41k dps and thats it. It has limited utility (cause all of the picked utility slots are aimed at dps if you want to get that 41k dps), limited sustain and a huge dependance on supports to get the job done. And you have a reaper that can do the same 41k dps, but has a free slot of utility to get anything you need, good on demand cc, great built in sustain/utility, ranged option, close to perma quickness (hence less dependant on supports). Im specifically pointing out that players skill is not a factor in this discussion since its quite subjective.  

No and no, you fail to see why players are picking reaper instead of weaver (using your example), and a utility button it isn't. lol

[rotten.9753]

55 minutes ago, Supernova Starr.2069 said:

No and no, you fail to see why players are picking reaper instead of weaver (using your example), and a utility button it isn't. lol

An average player definitely picks reaper because it's a build with much lower skill floor and ceiling than weaver. The better player will use the lack of utilities on weaver as an additional argument.

[rotten.9753]

2 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

It has limited utility (cause all of the picked utility slots are aimed at dps if you want to get that 41k dps)

Pretty much every DPS build takes utilities aimed at increased DPS, the problem is that weaver can't take anything else because there's nothing to take, otherwise you wouldn't take arcane blast from 2012 when "always crit" was thought to be a good design.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

27 minutes ago, rotten.9753 said:

An average player definitely picks reaper because it's a build with much lower skill floor and ceiling than weaver. 

Really? 🤔. I thought it was the giant kittening scythe. 

[Theros.1390]

18 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Honestly, I have like zero idea how many that would be.

Ask me why I'm asking this, means that you clearly have like zero idea of what I want to point out in this thread.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Theros.1390

[LadyKitty.6120]

41 minutes ago, Theros.1390 said:

Ask me why I'm asking this, means that you clearly have like zero idea of what I want to point out in this thread.

Let Kitty guess: it was almost a rhetorical question, quite pre-biased and somewhat questionable itself at that with the aim to point out the assumption that they'd balance based on minority within minority? ('cause to be clear: you can perform within 5% of benchmark with some practise and good understanding of the build yet still raid casually, some wings not even every week which sets the premise of the question as flawed)

Did Kitty hit the bullseye? 9.5/10? Does she get a parrot sticker?

[Theros.1390]

26 minutes ago, LadyKitty.6120 said:

Let Kitty guess: it was almost a rhetorical question, quite pre-biased and somewhat questionable itself at that with the aim to point out the assumption that they'd balance based on minority within minority? ('cause to be clear: you can perform within 5% of benchmark with some practise and good understanding of the build yet still raid casually, some wings not even every week which sets the premise of the question as flawed)

Did Kitty hit the bullseye? 9.5/10? Does she get a parrot sticker?

4/10, since it's not a rhetorical, quite pre-biased and somewhat questionnable question.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Theros.1390

[Polar.8634]

On 9/26/2023 at 7:29 PM, Theros.1390 said:

Please let the professionals shine, and let the casuals players do some decent damages in PvE.

how much damage is decent for casual player in pve?

[DanAlcedo.3281]

2 hours ago, Polar.8634 said:

how much damage is decent for casual player in pve?

Let's say on a boss like Seitung meta, my Openworld build can reach 20k dps. Which is OK given that Openworld builds don't stack every dmg multiplier. 

Others people reach about 15-20k dps on Openworld builds. When they actually try Ofcourse. 

People doing less often have kitten gear or builds. Or just Afk. 

[Polar.8634]

6 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Let's say on a boss like Seitung meta, my Openworld build can reach 20k dps. Which is OK given that Openworld builds don't stack every dmg multiplier. 

Others people reach about 15-20k dps on Openworld builds. When they actually try Ofcourse. 

People doing less often have kitten gear or builds. Or just Afk. 

it is still very unclear how much dps you actually do because your boons and vulnerability on enemies is greatly influenced by players nearby. 

unlike dungeon elitists casual player cannot choose the players around them, so should rely on self provided boons and vuln. 

one event i do with bunch of people who dont really share any boon, another event there are few heralds/guardians and i have 25 might which is huge.

How much dps is  ok for casual players given they are alone? so that there is reference point.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

37 minutes ago, Polar.8634 said:

it is still very unclear how much dps you actually do because your boons and vulnerability on enemies is greatly influenced by players nearby. 

unlike dungeon elitists casual player cannot choose the players around them, so should rely on self provided boons and vuln. 

one event i do with bunch of people who dont really share any boon, another event there are few heralds/guardians and i have 25 might which is huge.

How much dps is  ok for casual players given they are alone? so that there is reference point.

Much much lower. 

On my Openworld build, doing 5k autohits is pretty high. 3,5k is normal. 

Hitting for 10k on a powerfull skill is rare. 

For example, Hammer 2 on Warrior on a ccd target is like 8.5k. Which is a "Hits like a truck" ability. 

Haven't looked at my dps for a while but I would guess 10k solo on a veteran mob should be possible. 

Edited September 29, 2023 by DanAlcedo.3281

[philvaneyck.1932]

Anet only nerfing specs. Boring. That has nothing to do with balancing. Idiotic company.

[Obtena.7952]

6 hours ago, Theros.1390 said:

Ask me why I'm asking this, means that you clearly have like zero idea of what I want to point out in this thread.

My opinion on how many people doing full raids or ANYTHING in this game is completely IRRELEVANT to any point you are attempting to make in this thread. 

But I'm bored and this will be a fun game that shows the ridiculous approach you are trying to take here so ...

In my opinion what percentage of the players do full raid runs every week? How about we try something absolutely absurd like ZERO ... your move!

Edited September 29, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Gendalfs.7521]

Anet should hire/dedicate someone to put his boots on the ground in real situation. Someone who goes though all classes and specs and tests them one by one. Their spreadsheet method may be not perfect considering most of players cant get those numbers from golem tester, raid community.

[Theros.1390]

39 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

But I'm bored and this will be a fun game that shows the ridiculous approach you are trying to take here so ...

What percentage of the players do full raid runs every week? How about we try something absurd like ZERO ... your move!

Since you edited your post to add this part, I guess that you felt a bit upset by my words and decided to enter into like some duel mode ?

My deepest apologizes if I was a bit rude, but it is clearly not my fault if you have serious difficulties to understand what I wanted to point out in this thread. Furthermore, "Zero" was the absolute worst exemple to give since we all know that at least a few very well known guilds do their weekly run each week. This is just convincing me even more that you didn't get it.

Therefore, I kindly suggest you to take a deep breath and read again from the begining. You'll eventually understand, just like a lot of peeps here did.

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

56 minutes ago, Theros.1390 said:

 Furthermore, "Zero" was the absolute worst exemple to give since we all know that at least a few very well known guilds do their weekly run each week.

Which is exactly the result I intended since you asking me what my opinion is of how many people do full raid clears is completely irrelevant to the thread. 

Again, it makes PERFECT sense that Anet nerfs overperforming builds based on content they intentionally design to challenge the highest capability players ... and my opinion about how many players do full raid clears every week has NOTHING to do with that perfectly reasonable and logical claim. The fact that you would want to argue about something as irrelevant as my opinion is just you deflecting away from something that highlights the absurdity of the thread. 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Theros.1390]

52 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 and my opinion about how many players do full raid clears every week has NOTHING to do with that perfectly reasonable and logical claim.

I never asked about your opinion, I asked you an estimation in your opinion : So think about why I asked you an estimated number, and ask yourself why. I gave you the first step, try to go ahead by yourself now.

Once again, I'm so sorry that you dont get it, but really, I am completely sincere when I tell you that I just cannot be clearer that I was, even in the title. ^^'

Edited September 29, 2023 by Theros.1390

[Polar.8634]

4 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Much much lower. 

On my Openworld build, doing 5k autohits is pretty high. 3,5k is normal. 

Hitting for 10k on a powerfull skill is rare. 

For example, Hammer 2 on Warrior on a ccd target is like 8.5k. Which is a "Hits like a truck" ability. 

Haven't looked at my dps for a while but I would guess 10k solo on a veteran mob should be possible. 

ok, to the point. Before this balance I did around 10k - 15k on my open world build, which is traited not only in damage but also for survivability and qol. Solo on golem.

And after this balance patch, i still do the same numbers. 

Thats why i don't see any reasoning in the post. 

[DanAlcedo.3281]

14 minutes ago, Polar.8634 said:

ok, to the point. Before this balance I did around 10k - 15k on my open world build, which is traited not only in damage but also for survivability and qol. Solo on golem.

And after this balance patch, i still do the same numbers. 

Thats why i don't see any reasoning in the post. 

Let me give you an example.

Some time ago, high end raiders abused the Quickness Trait [Martial Cadance] with Bladesworn to speedrun raids.

Because of it, Anet removed Group Quickness from Core Warrior.

 

At the time, i had like 6  Core Warrior Builds i was playing in Openworld.

Core Warrior in openworld sucks dog water without Quickness because of the Adrenaline Mechanic.

This killed all my Core Builds. Or more precisly, made them absolutly unfun to play for me.

 

Basically, because high end Raiders going to fast, Anet killed my enjoyment of the game.

High end Raiders still go fast. They lost essentialy nothing. I lost all my fun i had at the time.

Thats why these Balance Patches suck.

 

High end raiders just switch to the next OP build.

The average player just gets hit by the crossfire and suffers because of it.

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by DanAlcedo.3281

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Theros.1390 said:

I never asked about your opinion, I asked you an estimation in your opinion 

That makes no sense; asking me for an estimation in my opinion is still asking me my opinion.  But that doesn't really matter. The attempt to make some pedantic argument to avoid discussing the point I made is obvious because you can't actually dispute it's logic or it's reasoning. 

My estimation in my opinion  has nothing to do with the statement I'm making that Anet targets overperforming builds because they want to maintain the difficulty of intentionally challenging content for highly capable players, regardless of whatever my estimation is. Any estimation I give you doesn't change that, so it's irrelevant what that estimate is to the discussion. 

Again, if you have a point, just make it. If your whole point is JUST what you have in your original post, well, consider it refuted based on much of the discussion in the thread, including my own and including the point you continually want to ignore because you think there is value in arguing with me some estimate you want me to make based on my opinion. 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Obtena.7952