Why Balance Patches are Professional Raiders skills dedicated ?

[Gendalfs.7521]

Anet should make a category for raids builds. Like Usual PVE, PVP, WvW and RAID and change all they want how they want, majority of players wouldnt give a f.

[Sobx.1758]

50 minutes ago, Gendalfs.7521 said:

Anet should make a category for raids builds. Like Usual PVE, PVP, WvW and RAID and change all they want how they want, majority of players wouldnt give a f.

Nah, current categories are fine, ow metas and bosses are getting deleted too fast as well, this is not some "raid exclusive" issue, which is what you apparently think.

 

1 hour ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Some time ago, high end raiders abused the Quickness Trait [Martial Cadance] with Bladesworn to speedrun raids.

Because of it, Anet removed Group Quickness from Core Warrior.

You sure that's the reason and not the plan they had to give q/a access to every class, so keeping one of those boons in core would provide both at the same time and they simply didn't want that to happen?

Edited September 29, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[DanAlcedo.3281]

56 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Nah, current categories are fine, ow metas and bosses are getting deleted too fast as well, this is not some "raid exclusive" issue, which is what you apparently think.

 

You sure that's the reason and not the plan they had to give q/a access to every class, so keeping one of those boons in core would provide both at the same time and they simply didn't want that to happen?

And thats where compansation kicks in.

If Core warrior had the ability to get self quickness , there would not be a problem.

Sadly, even Axe 4 + Frenzy + Quickness Sigil is not enough for example. Even with tons of Boon Duration.

Aggresive Onslaught also is only 3 seconds.

 

Thats why i wish Aggresive Onslaugh gets buffed to 5s quickness. Atleast then you could play Core Hammer warrior.

 

[Theros.1390]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That makes no sense; asking me for an estimation in my opinion is still asking me my opinion

You're infinitly twisting my words, that is not the good way to understand sweety 😄

Yes you're twisting : I'm still asking you an estimation that would be your opinion. And yes, it is important for you to think a bit and try to give this estimated number that would be your opinion, because no matter what you think, this number that you should give (even if it is your opinion) is an important part of my whole argument (second clue), and would have been the first steps for you to finally understand what I'm trying to say here.

As I said, Zero is the worst nonsence answer since at least a few guild are doing their raids every week.

Please think a bit instead of being so vindictive 😄 And please dont take it personnaly, I'm just trying to help you. Like I said before, what I want to point out here has been largely highlighted, and even explained by others forumers in the thread. Once again, I kindly suggest you to read from the beginning.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Theros.1390

[Obtena.7952]

23 minutes ago, Theros.1390 said:

You're infinitly twisting my words, 

If you think so, then I will just stick to the point I originally made and see if how you respond to it makes sense or is even relevant to it. 

It's completely reasonable and logical that Anet balances overperforming builds against the highest standards of content difficulty and capable players. My estimate of percentage of players doing raid clears every week doesn't change that. You can ask me all you want, but my estimate isn't relevant to anything that is being said in this thread. 

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Gaiawolf.8261]

5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

In my opinion what percentage of the players do full raid runs every week? How about we try something absolutely absurd like ZERO ... your move!

WTF are you smoking? That's way too high! 🙃

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

WTF are you smoking? That's way too high! 🙃

OK 100% then ... 🙂 

[Polar.8634]

2 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

At the time, i had like 6  Core Warrior Builds i was playing in Openworld.

oh, looking from that perspective, it sucks to not have 6 core warrior builds

[Theros.1390]

8 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It's completely reasonable and logical that Anet balances overperforming builds against the highest standards of content difficulty and capable players.

Ok, let's make a concession : I absolutely agree on this point. Like completely

And at the same time :

9 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

My estimate of percentage of players doing raid clears every week doesn't change that.

It's not the fact that it would be your opinion that matters. It's the number itself, and you perfectly understood it, just twisted my words. Be honest, approximately you should guess the percentage of actives players that are doing their raids every week. At least, you will admit that this number is VERY low, right ? Now think.

[Cuks.8241]

4 hours ago, Theros.1390 said:

Since you edited your post to add this part, I guess that you felt a bit upset by my words and decided to enter into like some duel mode ?

My deepest apologizes if I was a bit rude, but it is clearly not my fault if you have serious difficulties to understand what I wanted to point out in this thread. Furthermore, "Zero" was the absolute worst exemple to give since we all know that at least a few very well known guilds do their weekly run each week. This is just convincing me even more that you didn't get it.

Therefore, I kindly suggest you to take a deep breath and read again from the begining. You'll eventually understand, just like a lot of peeps here did.

 

 

Oh youre that guy. You know the one that thinks that is very smart and really likes to say it to everyone, always answer questions with more question or some missdirection but never really has a straight point.

I think many of us know that guy and mostly try to avoid him. 

[Obtena.7952]

7 minutes ago, Theros.1390 said:

Ok, let's make a concession : I absolutely agree on this point. Like completely

Great. So there shouldn't be any question WHY Anet balances like you suggest when 'it's completely in the topic'

7 minutes ago, Theros.1390 said:

 At least, you will admit that this number is VERY low, right ? 

Sure it's low ... but that doesn't matter. What matters is where and who builds overperform for because that's how overperformance is measured in this particular  balancing event. 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Theros.1390]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 What matters is where and who builds overperform for because that's how overperformance is measured in this case. 

Exactly ! You figured it out. (even if it is especially where instead of who)

And where builds are overperforming for Anet ?

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, Theros.1390 said:

And where builds are overperforming for Anet ?

Content they design to be intentionally difficult. 

[Theros.1390]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Content they design to be intentionally difficult. 

Aka Raids, do we agree ?

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Theros.1390 said:

Aka Raids, do we agree ?

Sure ... I mean, nothing new being revealed here. We simply don't agree that the number of players is a factor in these changes because overperformance isn't going to be measured by the average person doing 10-15K DPS. 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Theros.1390]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure ... I mean, nothing new being revealed here. We simply don't agree that the number of players is a factor in these changes. 

Ok great.

Now, do you find completely reasonable and logical that Anet balances overperforming builds against the highest standards of content difficulty and capable players, when these capable players represent a very low part of their whole active playerbase ? Do you find completely reasonable and logical that Anet take into consideration for their balance roadmap, a content that they're even not developing anymore ?

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Theros.1390 said:

Ok great.

Now, do you find completely reasonable and logical that Anet balances overperforming builds against the highest standards of content difficulty and capable players, when these capable players represent a very low part of their whole active playerbase ?

That should be obvious ... yes I do. Again, you aren't revealing something I missed or don't understand. 

3 minutes ago, Theros.1390 said:

Do you find completely reasonable and logical that Anet take into consideration for their balance roadmap, a content that they're even not developing anymore ?

Nothing in these changes suggests they being made SPECIFICALLY because of Raids. That's just YOUR imposition to justify your own ideas. These changes are just as relevant to ANY content that Anet designs to be challenging to highly capable players. 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Theros.1390]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That should be obvious ... yes I do.

Well, we just don't agree. That's it. 😕

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Theros.1390 said:

Well, we just don't agree. That's it. 😕

Yeah, I know we don't agree. I know why too (somehow you don't). That's why I'm posting. 🤷‍♂️

The fact is that as much as you think Anet shouldn't be balancing around this particular high performance standard for a small number of people, what you DIDN'T do is think about and suggest what the alternative to that would be. You got some good feely vibes it should be about 'casuals'. Good intentions, but what does that even mean?

Edited September 29, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Theros.1390]

25 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 what you DIDN'T do is think about and suggest what the alternative to that would be.

I did, that was the last line of my opening message. Let the professionals shine.

If the pros want to speedrun the content in an insane way just to post their vids, just let them do. If the content is too easy for them, well, good for them (it's also sometimes, the result of a long practice)

Raids or even other contents in PVE designed to be challenging, must be harder and challenging for this very little percentage, at the expense of all PvE players ? Then split Raids into a 4th game mode, with a dedicated balance, here's a suggestion, I assure you PvE balance will take much less nerfs. And even today, if Pro players want to give themselves a challenge, they still can play with low stat equipments and stuff like that. (and they're already do I believe)

Edited September 29, 2023 by Theros.1390

[Obtena.7952]

41 minutes ago, Theros.1390 said:

I did, that was the last line of my opening message. Let the professionals shine.

If the pros want to speedrun the content in an insane way just to post their vids, just let them do. If the content is too easy for them, well, good for them (it's also sometimes, the result of a long practice)

Raids or even other contents in PVE designed to be challenging, must be harder and challenging for this very little percentage, at the expense of all PvE players ? Then split Raids into a 4th game mode, with a dedicated balance, here's a suggestion, I assure you PvE balance will take much less nerfs. And even today, if Pro players want to give themselves a challenge, they still can play with low stat equipments and stuff like that. (and they're already do I believe)

Professionals shine regardless of the patch ... WHOEVER those people are so the standard Anet balances to has nothing to do with how well they 'shine'. Alls Anet is doing is setting a performance ceiling cap (and clearly to at least attempt to maintain the difficulty for those professionals). That doesn't affect whether it's still a hard ceiling to reach for the pros. 

So again, if Anet isn't balancing to this high performance standard ... what is the standard they are balancing to? I'm not here to entertain whatever ideas you have to split PVE or whatever because that's not the reality of the game we have now. What is the point here is that the standard Anet appears to use to balance, regardless of who it targets, is reasonable. Is there another standard Anet can use to balance that is as reasonable and more applicable to the players? I haven't seen a SINGLE person suggest one, including you. 

So unless there is some alternative, this is what we have and despite the rhetorical proclamiations of letting 'pros shine' (which they do regardless) or 'casuals do DPS' (which they can improve at ANY TIME they desire by learning the game) ... then threads like this are pretty nonsensical. 

The fact is this: Why does it appear Anet balances to this small group of people? because 1) the balancing is relevant to them more than anyone else and 2) they have a standard they can use to do measure against.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Theros.1390 said:

Aka Raids, do we agree ?

Not really, considering the power creep already destroyed the intended design of plenty of ow encounters. Your idea that "it only overperforms in [raids or whatever content you want to outline]" is false.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Theros.1390]

46 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Professionals shine regardless of the patch ... WHOEVER those people are so the standard Anet balances to has nothing to do with how well they 'shine'. Alls Anet is doing is setting a performance ceiling cap (and clearly to at least attempt to maintain the difficulty for those professionals). That doesn't affect whether it's still a hard ceiling to reach for the pros.

This performance ceiling cap, is only reachable by the pros. They'll shine anyway absolutely, very often in a content that the devs arent touching anymore. You want solutions ? Another simple way to increase difficulty without even touching a hair of the balance : just increase Bosses HP, or even go further or add some mechanics. There are plenty of ways they can maintain a high difficulty level for those players, without making all PvE players take the blow.

46 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

So again, if Anet isn't balancing to this high performance standard ...

They do, but once again, this high performance is not the standard of every players, like a said many times.

46 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

So unless there is some alternative, this is what we have and despite the rhetorical proclamiations of letting 'pros shine' (which they do regardless) or 'casuals do DPS' (which they can improve at ANY TIME they desire by learning the game) ... then threads like this are pretty nonsensical.

There are alternatives, my lines just up there in this one post ^ imo the nonsence is when you manage a project, and put a very low part of the relevants actors in the roadmap.

46 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The fact is it appear Anet balances to this small group of people? because 1) the balancing is relevant to them more than anyone else and 2) they have a standard they can use to do measure against.

Yea, so you promote the good balance for this very little part of the playerbase to the expense of the bulk of their game population. Yes, the pros represent this standard, but for the last time, this standard is not representative of what the others, the biggest part of their playerbase, can achieve. That's why promoting this way of balance is nonsence.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Theros.1390

[Obtena.7952]

4 hours ago, Theros.1390 said:

Yea, so you promote the good balance for this very little part of the playerbase to the expense of the bulk of their game population. Yes, the pros represent this standard, but for the last time, this standard is not representative of what the others, the biggest part of their playerbase, can achieve. 

The part you are missing is that Anet using a standard of the DPS ceiling works because a massive percentage of the people trying to hit that ceiling are ALL using the same build and rotation to achieve the goal of hitting that ceiling. That CAN'T work for the 'biggest part of the playerbase' because those people don't all have the same goal of hitting some DPS value, so they are NOT all using the same build and rotation to do that.

In otherwords, you might THINK that some more relevant DPS standard to the average player will make for better balancing because more people are in that DPS range. The reality is that the DPS standard is only relevant to the people that commit to playing with that standard build/rotation. In relative terms, the number of average people that would play to ANY standard relevant to some DPS one Anet could balance to is very small compared to the almost 100% adoption of the highest DPS standard adopted by the people that want to hit the ceiling. 

Furthermore, the 'solution' to whatever problem you have with balancing around the ceiling already exists for this big part of the playerbase ... it's called "git gud" because there isn't any option to bring better DPS to anything you do in this game other than building into SOME kind of DPS elements and learning a rotation.

Lastly, average players can blissfully NOT CARE about their DPS and still be successful because despite the impression you give of the thread, the content IS balanced around what average players are capable of doing. I would argue AGAIN that only the highest level CM content is really pushes people to commit to the DPS build/rotation standard. Otherwise, play what you want and stop counting the beans. 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952