NOBODY was complaining about pistol

[Decinomicon.4619]

Why was pistol nerfed? It was in a somewhat decent state. SOTO did not change anything with its power level. So why was it nerfed? Are engineer weapons not supposed to ever be viable?

[Dawdler.8521]

Because Purity Of Purpose.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

As far as I have noticed, they were addressing a very special build under very special conditions (pun). I do not think any of us (normal players) is drastically affected by this minor nerf. But they have stopped an extremely powerful super-rare build from overperforming. That were some valuable development-resources blown straight through the chimney.

Note: If anyone knows which build it is, can you please post a link? Thanks.

Edited September 26, 2023 by HnRkLnXqZ.1870

[Gendalfs.7521]

45 minutes ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

they were addressing a very special build under very special conditions

Same as why they made Mechnical Geniuss 😄 

[draxynnic.3719]

Dear Dwayna. If anything, any complaints were typically that it was still too weak...

Addendum: The changes overall look pretty focused on smacking down condi holo. For some reason.

Edited September 26, 2023 by draxynnic.3719
Added addendum.

[Shadowpeixera.2918]

4 hours ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

As far as I have noticed, they were addressing a very special build under very special conditions (pun). I do not think any of us (normal players) is drastically affected by this minor nerf. But they have stopped an extremely powerful super-rare build from overperforming. That were some valuable development-resources blown straight through the chimney.

Note: If anyone knows which build it is, can you please post a link? Thanks.

Then why were the weapon-skills themselves affected? Pistol isn't used by just one build, Blowtorch is a staple of most condi builds, not just one ( i'm assuming it's condi Holosmith which is also one of the hardest builds to play ).

I get it, Anet wants to contain dps now that every build jumped to around 40k dps but there are better ways of doing a generalistic nerf to all classes without looking like they're singling out specific builds. Why was Condi Zerker nerfed? Why is offhand pistol nerfed for Engis when it's the only offhand weapon we use that causes some damage?

They could have targeted the build itself, not the weapon that several other builds use.

[Sobx.1758]

Something was nerfed while it was being widely complained about? -omg, why does anet nerf things just because people complain about it?!
Something was nerfed because anet deemed it worth nerfing? -omg, why does anet nerf things when nobody complained about it?!

Maybe it's time to stop pretending existence of the complaints or lack of them has anything to do with you disliking nerfs.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Stx.4857]

30 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Something was nerfed while it was being widely complained about? -omg, why does anet nerf things just because people complain about it?!
Something was nerfed because anet deemed it worth nerfing? -omg, why does anet nerf things when nobody complained about it?!

Maybe it's time to stop pretending existence of the complaints or lack of them has anything to do with you disliking nerfs.

Disliking nerfs?  Or disliking stupid nerfs that make no sense?   
 

There was zero logical reason to nerf pistol. 

[Mewone.3247]

You have to understand that nobody from anet wants a truely balanced game (and this isnt a gw2 specific thing) even though with no vertical gear progression this feat is way more realistic than in other mmos. The moment you have a game that is universally considered to be well balanced you lose every opportunity to release "balancing patches" instead of real content which is what they literally did for the lifespan of EOD. There is no way more than 1 hour of brainpower went into the latest balancing changes and still everyone talks about it instead of the lack of content such as cm strikes or new metas etc. Once you have your community conditioned to no content updates why put in the effort to be the best version of the game you could be?

Edit: Btw this is no different from the lack of bugfixes. People have been conditioned to not expect any bugfixes in "older" content (looking at strikes and raids). And since this community similar to WoW consists of tons of boomer, the amount of copium is off the charts.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Mewone.3247

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Mewone.3247 said:

You have to understand that nobody from anet wants a truely balanced game (and this isnt a gw2 specific thing) even though with no vertical gear progression this feat is way more realistic than in other mmos. The moment you have a game that is universally considered to be well balanced you lose every opportunity to release "balancing patches" instead of real content which is what they literally did for the lifespan of EOD. There is no way more than 1 hour of brainpower went into the latest balancing changes and still everyone talks about it instead of the lack of content such as cm strikes or new metas etc. Once you have your community conditioned to no content updates why put in the effort to be the best version of the game you could be?

Edit: Btw this is no different from the lack of bugfixes. People have been conditioned to not expect any bugfixes in "older" content (looking at strikes and raids). And since this community similar to WoW consists of tons of boomer, the amount of copium is off the charts.

We had an expansion about a month ago, which included two new metas and strikes. We're due another content update in about two months - I forget exactly what's in it, but if I cared to I could go look it up. EoD was lacking in content updates primarily because they were going back and finally redoing Season 1, albeit in abridged form. The current balance issues are because ArenaNet didn't account for the effect of weapon mastery and the relic system on builds, not due to some conspiracy to use balance updates as a substitute for content updates.

[Sobx.1758]

On 9/27/2023 at 3:54 PM, Stx.4857 said:

Disliking nerfs? 

Yup, this one. At the moment OP started posting about pistol nerfs (he had more posts in a thread in "general discussion" subforum, but OP of that thread asked mods to delete it) and saying things like he did in this thread where "engie weapons are supposed to be not viable now", he didn't even know the results/dps numbers after those nerfs.
So it is just complaining about nerfs because nerfs happened, exactly. And he is free to dislike those -or any other- nerfs, but -again- he didn't even check how it truly influenced anything before complaining on the forum about them happening.

On 9/27/2023 at 3:54 PM, Stx.4857 said:

There was zero logical reason to nerf pistol. 

Not sure about that, if they're pulling holo down to, lets say, 40k then much easier condi mech builds reaching similar values makes no sense and as such they also need to be pulled back a bit. There's your logical reason. Again, if they wanted to target holo and nothing else, they'd do it like they did in similar cases for other classes in this very same patch.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Mewone.3247]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

EoD was lacking in content updates primarily because they were going back and finally redoing Season 1, albeit in abridged form. The current balance issues are because ArenaNet didn't account for the effect of weapon mastery and the relic system on builds, not due to some conspiracy to use balance updates as a substitute for content updates.

So, can we at least now all agree that EOD sucked compared to HOT and POF? Also, the relic system is literally just removing the 6piece rune bonus and put it or something similar onto an extra slot. Most relics provide, similar to runes, 5% extra damage. With the exception of the akeem relic, none of them temper with prior balancing efforts in the slightest. How do you explain that it took 18 months for scourge to be at 41.5k, which was the iteration where it was finally viable again and now its down to 38k with the need for a second weapon? What exactly is the goal of the balancing team, can you help me with that? You also completely ignored the issue at hand that a very difficult spec in condi holo was nerfed significantly and pretty much matches a much easier spec in condi mech. I also want to remind everyone that the bug to be able to use all toolbelt skills even as mechanist is still present that has been introduced with EOD. For the love of god you deserve better.

[Stx.4857]

10 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yup, this one. At the moment OP started posting about pistol nerfs (he had more posts in a thread in "general discussion" subforum, but OP of that thread asked mods to delete it) and saying things like he did in this thread where "engie weapons are supposed to be not viable now", he didn't even know the results/dps numbers after those nerfs.
So it is just complaining about nerfs because nerfs happened, exactly. And he is free to dislike those -or any other- nerfs, but -again- he didn't even check how it truly influenced anything before complaining on the forum about them happening.

Not sure about that, if they're pulling holo down to, lets say, 40k then much easier condi mech builds reaching similar values makes no sense and as such they also need to be pulled back a bit. There's your logical reason. Again, if they wanted to target holo and nothing else, they'd do it like they did in similar cases for other classed in this very same patch.

Or, how about you use an ounce of brainpower and realize that the issue isn’t a weapon set that has been the same for a long time, maybe the issue is the new rune set in trapper that was recently added and caused a lot of this power creep on condition builds.  I guess by directly nerfing weapons and class abilities that prior to Soto were perfectly fine, they are making a statement that they do not intend to balance the new runes or relics.  

[draxynnic.3719]

8 hours ago, Mewone.3247 said:

So, can we at least now all agree that EOD sucked compared to HOT and POF? Also, the relic system is literally just removing the 6piece rune bonus and put it or something similar onto an extra slot. Most relics provide, similar to runes, 5% extra damage. With the exception of the akeem relic, none of them temper with prior balancing efforts in the slightest. How do you explain that it took 18 months for scourge to be at 41.5k, which was the iteration where it was finally viable again and now its down to 38k with the need for a second weapon? What exactly is the goal of the balancing team, can you help me with that? You also completely ignored the issue at hand that a very difficult spec in condi holo was nerfed significantly and pretty much matches a much easier spec in condi mech. I also want to remind everyone that the bug to be able to use all toolbelt skills even as mechanist is still present that has been introduced with EOD. For the love of god you deserve better.

If by "EoD sucked" you actually mean "EoD didn't receive the Living Story followup content than HoT and PoF received", then sure. But to take the rose-tinted goggles off, it took something like nine months for HoT to start receiving followup content that wasn't raids. LS1 also had to be reimplemented at some point for the long-term health of the game.

Balance-wise, we really need to rip off those nostalgia goggles. The balance pre-SotO, while far from perfect, was probably the best we've had in terms of the variety of viable builds. They're now dealing with the consequences of weapon mastery and relics.

Scourge takes 41.5k to be viable? Hahaha. Arenanet's target is probably still around 40k. 38k for scourge now, if that's what it's at, is probably about right for a fully ranged, reasonably simple-to-run build that can also bring useful utility. Holosmith I haven't seen the numbers for - it probably deserves to be around 41-42k due to the complexity of running it, if ArenaNet manages to return to pre-SotO damage numbers generally. In both cases, if they decide that a little powercreep is acceptable, those numbers might revise up a bit. But if holosmith IS only matching condimech now, then that probably explains why some of the nerf was on pistol rather than being entirely on holo.

[Mewone.3247]

7 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

If by "EoD sucked" you actually mean "EoD didn't receive the Living Story followup content than HoT and PoF received"

No I mean the maps, metas and masteries were boring. And yes it doesnt help we got jack for 18 months after that. That xpac introduced lots of bugs and so many were left untouched. Strikes still have gamebreaking bugs, classes have bugs such as toolbelt skills mechanist, dodge bug vindi that still isnt fully fixed etc. And don't get me started on bugs that are left from HOT/POF. All I remember from EOD were mediocre balancing attemps and changes to firebrand mantras that nobody asked for.

7 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Balance-wise, we really need to rip off those nostalgia goggles. The balance pre-SotO, while far from perfect, was probably the best we've had in terms of the variety of viable builds.

Your nostalgia argument makes no sense. The current balancing is terrible and pre SOTO was so aswell. Just because it was a step up from pre EOD, where they did literally nothing (evidence is on wingman see group composition and usage of classes) it doesn't justify anything. You basically try to defend a game where they did literally nothing for years and then they start stuff while showing poor understanding and judgment and somehow that should satisfy me? A period of 18 months (EOD) with no content was enough to show the poor balancing efforts and at this point I can only conclude it was intentional so people have something to talk about while they promise "real content updates" that never came. Just imagine for a second EOD had no balancing updates because you could solve this stuff in 3 patches within the first month, what exactly leads you to belive the game wasn't on life support with no further patches?

7 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Scourge takes 41.5k to be viable? Hahaha. Arenanet's target is probably still around 40k

I never said Scourge takes 41.5k to be viable, I said it was a viable dps option after the balancing patch that made it deal around 41.5k damage. The class was played severely less with the introduction of EOD and a lot of usage came out of hscg being able to carry even the worst of the worst through any content. So when a class appears to be in a decent spot where people are happy about the state and enjoy the class in raids, strikes and fractals, why make drastic changes? Like, it took 18 month to arrive at a point where scourge seemed to be in a good spot pve wise, so we can conclude this was anet's goal all along. But now scourge sits at 38k and has a much more complex rotation so how does that decision fit in the context of 18 months of balancing efforts that appear to contradict that? How does that not feel like we have arrived back at square one? For a long period condi holo was a very rewarding class in the context of overall damage and compared to the easy mode spec condi mechanist. From all the talk on stream I can conclude that was intentional even though it took them way over a year to arrive there for obvious reasons. So how exactly makes the recent balancing patch sense? Maybe wait until the new weapon is released and balance around that or even better, maybe release the new weapon with SOTO so you can balance around all factors and not just one which leads to futile efforts once the next factor is introduced (in this context a new weapon). The way you argue apparently justifies every poor balancing attempt right now because in the future there is a new weapon we get. I have an idea: maybe delay the new weapon to somewhere in the far future so we can justify every bad decision with the future event in mind that a new weapon will someday release.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Mewone.3247

[Thron Stal.9367]

Eng nerfed again... Runes not fixed, Relics suck canal water. What else?

[Thron Stal.9367]

19 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yup, this one. At the moment OP started posting about pistol nerfs (he had more posts in a thread in "general discussion" subforum, but OP of that thread asked mods to delete it) and saying things like he did in this thread where "engie weapons are supposed to be not viable now", he didn't even know the results/dps numbers after those nerfs.
So it is just complaining about nerfs because nerfs happened, exactly. And he is free to dislike those -or any other- nerfs, but -again- he didn't even check how it truly influenced anything before complaining on the forum about them happening.

Not sure about that, if they're pulling holo down to, lets say, 40k then much easier condi mech builds reaching similar values makes no sense and as such they also need to be pulled back a bit. There's your logical reason. Again, if they wanted to target holo and nothing else, they'd do it like they did in similar cases for other classed in this very same patch.

I use a pistol and I am not playing Holo... so their NERF affects me on another profession and build, without thought again ANET. GG

[Sobx.1758]

5 minutes ago, AreohCobing.5092 said:

I use a pistol and I am not playing Holo... so their NERF affects me on another profession and build, without thought again ANET. GG

I'm not sure you understood what I wrote, because this is not responding to anything. I know it affects more than holo and I said that was their intention.

[Thron Stal.9367]

2 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I'm not sure you understood what I wrote, because this is not responding to anything. I know it affects more than holo and I said that was their intention.

Sorry, I am so aggravated by Anet, I think I will quit for a couple years. 

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, Mewone.3247 said:

No I mean the maps, metas and masteries were boring. And yes it doesnt help we got jack for 18 months after that. That xpac introduced lots of bugs and so many were left untouched. Strikes still have gamebreaking bugs, classes have bugs such as toolbelt skills mechanist, dodge bug vindi that still isnt fully fixed etc. And don't get me started on bugs that are left from HOT/POF. All I remember from EOD were mediocre balancing attemps and changes to firebrand mantras that nobody asked for.

Your nostalgia argument makes no sense. The current balancing is terrible and pre SOTO was so aswell. Just because it was a step up from pre EOD, where they did literally nothing (evidence is on wingman see group composition and usage of classes) it doesn't justify anything. You basically try to defend a game where they did literally nothing for years and then they start stuff while showing poor understanding and judgment and somehow that should satisfy me? A period of 18 months (EOD) with no content was enough to show the poor balancing efforts and at this point I can only conclude it was intentional so people have something to talk about while they promise "real content updates" that never came. Just imagine for a second EOD had no balancing updates because you could solve this stuff in 3 patches within the first month, what exactly leads you to belive the game wasn't on life support with no further patches?

I never said Scourge takes 41.5k to be viable, I said it was a viable dps option after the balancing patch that made it deal around 41.5k damage. The class was played severely less with the introduction of EOD and a lot of usage came out of hscg being able to carry even the worst of the worst through any content. So when a class appears to be in a decent spot where people are happy about the state and enjoy the class in raids, strikes and fractals, why make drastic changes? Like, it took 18 month to arrive at a point where scourge seemed to be in a good spot pve wise, so we can conclude this was anet's goal all along. But now scourge sits at 38k and has a much more complex rotation so how does that decision fit in the context of 18 months of balancing efforts that appear to contradict that? How does that not feel like we have arrived back at square one? For a long period condi holo was a very rewarding class in the context of overall damage and compared to the easy mode spec condi mechanist. From all the talk on stream I can conclude that was intentional even though it took them way over a year to arrive there for obvious reasons. So how exactly makes the recent balancing patch sense? Maybe wait until the new weapon is released and balance around that or even better, maybe release the new weapon with SOTO so you can balance around all factors and not just one which leads to futile efforts once the next factor is introduced (in this context a new weapon). The way you argue apparently justifies every poor balancing attempt right now because in the future there is a new weapon we get. I have an idea: maybe delay the new weapon to somewhere in the far future so we can justify every bad decision with the future event in mind that a new weapon will someday release.

Can I have your stuff when you quit?

[Mewone.3247]

I only log in to do cm strikes in the last couple of months so there is nothing I could give away since cm strikes are the least rewarding content in this game and my buff food + writ are more expensive than the stuff I get for clearing. Wait a second, maybe this is the reason I sometimes wait an hour for the group to fill up? Could it be people don't feel like committing to the most difficult content without appropriate rewards? I think I am onto something

[draxynnic.3719]

Heh. My response was essentially a case of 'you're so determined to doom, not to mention making it personal, that I just don't see value in continuing the discussion'.

The comments about nostalgia, though, were directed at your attempt to call out EoD specifically. It didn't have the full Living Story season that HoT had, as I acknowledged. Otherwise? EoD had about a year where the only 'new' content was LS1 re-release and strike CMs. HoT had a similar period where the only new content was raids. Balance-wise, pre-SotO is the closest we've had to an endgame PvE meta where every profession had equal opportunity to contribute. It wasn't perfect, but it beat the chronodruid and firebrigade days, especially considering that there were often preferred DPS professions in those periods as well and everything else was SOL.

SotO has created balance problems - I had concerns myself when weaponmaster training and relics were announced, and things are pretty much playing out exactly as I thought. But EoD can't be blamed for those.

[Jitters.9401]

On 9/26/2023 at 1:37 PM, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

But they have stopped an extremely powerful super-rare build from overperforming.

But the widely used OP ele and willbender builds in wvw are ok? 

Anet loves their guardian and ele builds in wvw.  That is all I know they play... but does any of them play something else? 

[Mewone.3247]

1 hour ago, Jitters.9401 said:

That is all I know they play... but does any of them play something else? 

They fired the guy who made power Mechanist great again and naturally the community tried to make a scapegoat out of him for the unbalanced state of the game which is just the perfect showcase for the amounts of copium in the community. Shortly after firing him and making power Mechanist literally useless (to this day) they buffed Virtuoso and since that day there were more buffs than nerfs and its by far the most played dps class in any non braindead content such as cm strikes because it has everything you need and more. Virtuoso is literally oldschool power Mechanist but even more broken. Where is the outcry about Virtuoso being in every cm strike? You can neither take this community or Anet seriously.

[Teknomancer.4895]

On 9/27/2023 at 12:00 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

The current balance issues are because ArenaNet didn't account for the effect of weapon mastery and the relic system on builds, not due to some conspiracy to use balance updates as a substitute for content updates.

In other words, never attribute malice to that which simple stupidity can explain.