Stealth is not OP, you are just bad

[CallousEye.5018]

On 9/30/2023 at 8:57 AM, Zizekent.2398 said:

So, like GW2 WvW thieves xD

Aight, not a fan of dmg reduction while in stealth so i'll give some other ideas:
 

1. Reveal if you get hit in stealth.
2. Reveal if you miss a hit or hit a defensive target (invuls, immune, blocks, evades)
3. Reveal on casting damaging animations while in stealth, like Dead Eye's rifle 1.
4. Sound should be an indicator of a close stealthed foe.
5. Foot/Body trails if they're way too close to you.
6. Add reveal to classes without reveals.
7. Make reveal more viable without such big tradeoffs on classes that has it.

"But it's too much, too many ways to reveal" yeah... i don't care at this point, just pick your favorite and discard your least favorite, the truth is, that the stealth in this game is pepega.

Also being a WoW player where Rogues have perma-stealth and vanish, though a different implementation, wow has 1, 2, 3, and somewhat 4. Where 4 and 5 would fall under the concept of, "Stealth detection," but also damage over time effects would remove a player from stealth.

You couldn't copy all of the same mechanics from WoW and have it work in GW2, it would be too punishing, but I do think stealth removal on hit makes sense, maybe not "Reveal" which prevents re-stealth, but it would add some counter-play.

[vilesoldier.9826]

32 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

I've continually improved at this game

 

2 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

The second life of power necro is a crutch. You can see this by the avg power necros, who so willinglingly rush the front line of a mid fight as if they are a spartan. It is a crutch becuase the average dps spec, in the average situation against avg enemy, dies for that, but when the power necros bad habbits are used  around better players, their crutch is negated, and then they die.

 

It's a marathon and looks like there a long ways to go if a power necro autopiloting shroud in a teamfight is too tough to bring down. But good luck, it seems hard now but in a few years you'll look back and wonder how they ever got you below 50% hp 🙂

Edited October 3, 2023 by vilesoldier.9826

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

U do kno rogues in wow also had 1 stealth skill that worked when in combat to restealth and disengage, it basically functioned the same as the outa combat stealth.

Yes, but the roge moved slower when stealthed unless using dash ability, which was a compromise, many more things could remove stealth, deminishing returns on cc/immobs, lots of things that kept the rogue in check, which justified vanish.

 

40 minutes ago, vilesoldier.9826 said:

 

 

It's a marathon and looks like there a long ways to go if a power necro autopiloting shroud in a teamfight is too tough to bring down. But good luck, it seems hard now but in a few years you'll look back and wonder how they ever got you below 50% hp 🙂

When you continually make personal insults by twisting context, it reads as a person who had a very traumatic childhood, who now anonymously takes it out on others. There are always exceptions to the rule though, I hope youre one of them.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Supernova Starr.2069]

I don't see how a deadeye jumping around in stealth, while waiting for it's target to pop defensive cds is skill based

[Kervv.6039]

2 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Yes, but the roge moved slower when stealthed unless using dash ability

 

This hasn't been true for years. And it's called sprint.

[Sweetbread.3678]

On 10/2/2023 at 3:50 PM, Shagie.7612 said:

anyways gw1 assassin is way cooler than teef could ever be
get a real respectable job like assassin, dweebs

For real. It always amazes me how they got Assassin and Mesmer so right in GW1 and so very very very wrong in GW2. Every ounce of depth was scraped out and replaced with cheesy and brain-dead as kitten gimmicks.

[WastedYears.8934]

Yup, stealth isnt OP.

Thief who use auto sequence macro scripts are giving's them almost perfect/near impossible combos are OP

Now that the elephant is out of the room.............................🤣

They usually die once you figure out their cast sequence and throw them a wild card. Either they panic and start running away to reset skill or get steamrolled.

Then against most players just give up after ONE fight/loss, hence they will never truly reach this point

Edited October 4, 2023 by WastedYears.8934

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

9 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

• Staff not costing 6 init per Vault
• Debilitating arc not costing 5 init per use
• Shortbow 5 not costing 8 init
• Pistol whip not costing 6 init per Pistol whip
• Staff not requiring a target struck to complete the auto chain, so the reflect is available more readily
• Cooldown adjustment for smokescreen (it only lasts 4 seconds now. 45 sec cd is ridiculous.)
• Damage buffs for sword, pistol, dagger main and offhand, and staff #1 and #2
• A rebalancing to Acrobatics that makes Hard to Catch and Instant Reflexes not useless/pointless to take and returns Swindler's Equalibrium to its former damage bonus value of 10% strike damage
• A rebalancing to Deadly arts that makes Panic Strike not useless
• Ricochet returned to Deadly Aim
• Signets of Power not being useless
• a cooldown adjustment to Bandit's defense, withdraw, haste, and dagger storm, since the recharge reductions paired with those were removed without compensation, forcing thieves to hide more often. 
• Palm strike not being useless
• Impacting disruption not being a joke

There ya go. A nice tidy list of how to get thieves to not hide.

If you can win a fight by simply playing better than them, their mechanics aren't crutches; you just don't like the mechanics. Something that works vs an average player (but gets wiped vs a player that knows what they are doing) constantly getting nerfed because the average player doesn't know how to disassemble it is what removes classes from viability. It's that same kind of reasoning that kept warrior in the garbage bin for years. some players would tank telegraphs and eat damage, but good players knowing what to avoid made the class difficult to play vs anyone of a competent skill level. 

Necro is built around shroud. It wouldn't function properly as a class if it didn't have shroud, unless you radically increased its damage and mobility to compensate. See: Harbinger. 

• No. Mobility + evade. Remove evade or half the damage, then yes;
• No. Mobility + evade + immo removal;
• No. High mobility;
• No. Spammable hard CC;
• No. Pure powercreep for defense, like Evade frames on AA for Rangers GS;
• Maybe reduce cd by 10s at most;
• Absolutely no. Damage is fine;
• Acceptable;
• Acceptable;
• No;
• Acceptable;
• Absoletuly no. L2P issue;
• Acceptable;
• Fully reworked into something that won't promote CC spam, sure, otherwise no.

Maybe something that won't scream "POWERCREEP UWWWWWWOGGGHHHHHH" would be better. Try again. You're just shifting from stealth spam to evade spam. In simpler words, you just want another form of crutch.
How about adding something within teef traits tools for boon removal, like: if target has more than 5 boons on themselves, your attacks with sword attacks will remove 1 boon, triggers once per 5s?

[ccccc.4963]

8 hours ago, vilesoldier.9826 said:

 

 

It's a marathon and looks like there a long ways to go if a power necro autopiloting shroud in a teamfight is too tough to bring down. But good luck, it seems hard now but in a few years you'll look back and wonder how they ever got you below 50% hp 🙂

Power reapers in a good spot atm

[Gotejjeken.1267]

7 hours ago, Supernova Starr.2069 said:

I don't see how a deadeye jumping around in stealth, while waiting for it's target to pop defensive cds is skill based

It isn't--which is how I with zero knowledge of thief was able to multiclass enough with deadeye in g2/g3 to get the legendary backpack.  My other class was bladesworn which at the time was even more braindead easy than it is now because tactical reload hadn't been nerfed yet.

Anyway, how we're still hardlocked to thief here I can't understand.  Again, the problematic thieves in sPvP don't stealth--they roll daredevil and spam evades while also abusing blinds.  

The only problematic stealth build I see at the moment is scrapper, and it's morso because of the amount of superspeed and mobility they have even if the burst misses.  It's in the same place soulbeast was before they destroyed OWP, but of course anet ignores scrapper because if they nerf it there will be no engis left due to how mishandled the other e-specs are.  

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Thread should at least be renamed to "stealth is not op if thief is the one with it. You are just bad".

Because thieves for sure cried for stealth nerf on PU when they were getting farmed by mesmers.

[WastedYears.8934]

16 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

The only problematic stealth build I see at the moment is scrapper, and it's morso because of the amount of superspeed and mobility they have even if the burst misses.  It's in the same place soulbeast was before they destroyed OWP, but of course anet ignores scrapper because if they nerf it there will be no engis left due to how mishandled the other e-specs are.  

Scrappers!!! IYKYK!! 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

8 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Maybe something that won't scream "POWERCREEP UWWWWWWOGGGHHHHHH" would be better. Try again. You're just shifting from stealth spam to evade spam. In simpler words, you just want another form of crutch.

Figures.

'I'd like to actually do damage thanks~ If you want thieves to stick around  (or be forced to stick around), you should probably be willing to give them some means to protect their HP pool. I suggested init decreases/cd decreases on active skills that need to be timed to evade attacks as the means to do this because this is the most skillful of the alternatives (namely, increasing passive defenses or baking mitigation -into- the thief kit itself) but if that also isn't good then your options are limited. 

You're going to have to pick one. 11k HP is 11k HP. Pick how you want it protected. I'm completely fine playing it as is, and the skills team also thinks it's in a good spot for what it offers.

Quote

How about adding something within teef traits tools for boon removal, like: if target has more than 5 boons on themselves, your attacks with sword attacks will remove 1 boon, triggers once per 5s?

Bountiful Theft already does this and the boons we need to grab are often critical and short duration. If we need more, Absorption Sigil/Rending Shade are right there. 

But figure out what thief version you want. If it works I will play it, if not it'll just eventually get patched back to working. 

@Flowki.7194 Note what I said about people perpetually being unhappy with thief functioning.

7 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

how we're still hardlocked to thief here I can't understand.  Again, the problematic thieves in sPvP don't stealth--they roll daredevil and spam evades while also abusing blinds.  

It's still a major facet of their kits, traits and skills. They will be impacted most out of any class, so requests for stealth nerfs are generally synonymous with nerfs for thief.

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Personally, with my hearing loss I find it difficult to fight stealthed targets, but that is a me issue. I'd like to see damage floaters when I strike a stealthed target. I'd think my character would know if a greatsword met flesh even if that flesh were invisible.

Other than that, the only acceptable change to stealth that wouldn't overly penalize thief would be to make stealth not stack in duration.

[Downstate.4697]

For me the mechanic of stealth is fine. Having access to it via smoke fields is a bit of a problem. Maybe reducing the duration could help

[magickthief.6492]

10 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Thread should at least be renamed to "stealth is not op if thief is the one with it. You are just bad".

Because thieves for sure cried for stealth nerf on PU when they were getting farmed by mesmers.

I don't think farming glass thieves was the reason PU mesmer got nerfed lol.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

3 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

It's still a major facet of their kits, traits and skills. They will be impacted most out of any class, so requests for stealth nerfs are generally synonymous with nerfs for thief.

Is this still the case though? Both daredevil and specter don't really stealth, and I'm sure you could build an evade deadeye build that doesn't use it.  That leaves condi core thief which does abuse stealth which is probably the ones that should get a nerf.

Basically, I don't see why you'd have to nerf anything on theif besides SA line and maybe the smoke field on OH pistol.  

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

58 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Is this still the case though?

Yes~ 

Quote

Both daredevil and specter don't really stealth, and I'm sure you could build an evade deadeye build that doesn't use it. 

So? That's still access to our traits and damage skills you're talking about. stealth adjustments are both a sustain and damage nerf in the case of most thief builds.

Adjustments are fine, but people need to consider what they're asking for and what we lose access to in the pursuit of nebulous fairness, and suggest something that works. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

29 minutes ago, magickthief.6492 said:

I don't think farming glass thieves was the reason PU mesmer got nerfed lol.

But the ones crying the loudest were thieves screaming at the top of their lungs "mesmer has too much stealth nerf please".

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

28 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

But the ones crying the loudest were thieves screaming at the top of their lungs "mesmer has too much stealth nerf please".

I don't believe that.

It doesn't make sense. PU mesmer was outrunnable, and thieves could run back then, too. Maybe you'd annoy a thief by not dying but the only way you'd force a win is if a thief decided to commit to you instead of doing literally anything else, or ate confusion and didn't do anything about it. This seems like something you'd get a lot of flak from warriors or eles for. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

46 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I don't see why you'd have to nerf anything on theif besides SA line

Question for you. What exactly would you nerf on SA line right now that would make any thief engagements fairer?

[magickthief.6492]

 

20 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

But the ones crying the loudest were thieves screaming at the top of their lungs "mesmer has too much stealth nerf please".

I don't, maybe they were. I wasn't lol. I've been smoking mesmers since 2012 without pause.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

4 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Personally, with my hearing loss I find it difficult to fight stealthed targets, but that is a me issue. I'd like to see damage floaters when I strike a stealthed target. I'd think my character would know if a greatsword met flesh even if that flesh were invisible.

Totally reasonable. (You can also do this to some extent now by monitoring whether or not you gain adrenaline on a hit/boons from a hit/procs on a burst .)

A little stealth shimmer would be fine, but it has to be a non direction specific telegraph.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

30 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Question for you. What exactly would you nerf on SA line right now that would make any thief engagements fairer?

Things like Cloaked in Shadows not applying blindness would be a start.  As that would be like giving Celestial Shadow a blind on it--because you already have superspeed with Meld with Shadows same as you get superspeed with Celestial Shadow.  

Maybe as compensation (even though that supposedly isn't a thing anymore) could do 1 stack of stab for 2s-3s or something on gaining stealth--you're untargetable anyway and would just prevent random CC's from screwing a kite attempt over.  

Edited October 4, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

11 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Totally reasonable. (You can also do this to some extent now by monitoring whether or not you gain adrenaline on a hit/boons from a hit/procs on a burst .)

A little stealth shimmer would be fine, but it has to be a non direction specific telegraph.

I know, but my attention is on my character and its surroundings and not tiny numbers/outlines on small icons on my buff bar.