Stealth is not OP, you are just bad

[Flowki.7194]

Just now, vilesoldier.9826 said:

 

Next week on, 'Mad bc Bad", will Flowki ever get their nerfs and finally feel better about other classes having tools he can't match? 😱

 

😜 keep clinging to off peak cructhes.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

58 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

This needs to not turn into personal skill level arguments about what and how long I have played something.

I didn't say anything about this either. (Granted I -did- imply it earlier, but that was a joke.) I'm saying a large part of your argument is founded on the assumption that you know what an average thief looks like. If you won't even play the class because, based on your wiki searches (and fighting it), the class is degenerate, you're missing key information about this.

Namely, the fact that average thieves get wiped off the map faster than any other avg class. A brief journey as a thief would make you aware of this very quickly, but if you're only basing your judgement on the thieves you fight, odds are you are dealing with predominantly people who have played it several times as long as you have played your main. I don't think your opinion of what an avg thief looks like accounts for this.

That is my assertion, anyway.

Quote

I have never played bladesworn, I did some reading of its mechanics and play against it, does that mean I am wrong to suggest bladesorn is way over performing for the effort input?

 I read up on thief mechanics, and played against them, and will not play that spec at all under its current low risk game play. So thats my position.

You're not wrong in your conclusion for bladesworn, but this isn't a justification for the thought process. These classes are different~

Bladesworn is overperforming, but it's also easier than most thief specs to play because of how concrete its rotation is. Thieves have to react to you, bladesworn largely does not because of how its traits work. 

Still though, what do you want instead? If thief is low risk, how should they play? How should we get there?

Quote

Personally, I want avg thieves to get punished more easily

Average thieves don't live. Play the class for a couple matches and you'll see why. What else do you want?

Quote

I also want good thieves to get punished more easily for making what they out right know is bad plays on any other spec, simply becuase they know they can get off with it.

Which bad plays? How?

Quote

It would be nice if thieves had more sustain, and less crutchy escape

How?

Edited October 2, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Shagie.7612]

i find it kinda weird how everyone thinks stealth is the issue when it was problem class even back in ye olden days where stealth uptime was significantly less
they can't be allowed to do anything good besides decapping or else every match is decided by which team has the better one

anyways gw1 assassin is way cooler than teef could ever be
get a real respectable job like assassin, dweebs

[Endo.1652]

1 hour ago, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

There are methods to aim your attack. But when facing off against an invisible opponent there is no counter play. You have have to sit and wait for them to make a mistake. 

Aint no one gonna go into kitten action camera to aim their stealth attack then turn it off after. Youd miss so often they would have to rewrite the targetting for all the ranged stealth attacks. This idea is terrible.

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I didn't say anything about this either. (Granted I -did- imply it earlier, but that was a joke.) I'm saying a large part of your argument is founded on the assumption that you know what an average thief looks like. If you won't even play the class because, based on your wiki searches (and fighting it), the class is degenerate, you're missing key information about this.

Namely, the fact that average thieves get wiped off the map faster than any other avg class. A brief journey as a thief would make you aware of this very quickly, but if you're only basing your judgement on the thieves you fight, odds are you are dealing with predominantly people who have played it several times as long as you have played your main. I don't think your opinion of what an avg thief looks like accounts for this.

That is my assertion, anyway.

You're not wrong in your conclusion for bladesworn, but this isn't a justification for the thought process. These classes are different~

Bladesworn is overperforming, but it's also easier than most thief specs to play because of how concrete its rotation is. Thieves have to react to you, bladesworn largely does not because of how its traits work. 

Still though, what do you want instead? If thief is low risk, how should they play? How should we get there?

Average thieves don't live. Play the class for a couple matches and you'll see why. What else do you want?

Which bad plays? How?

How?

 

Ofc I know what an avg thief looks like, most people (myself included) are around the below/avg /above avg level at this game. Not so uncommon now, this MMR then throws a duo plat at you on XYZ spec, where I get to experiance how that looks, although dueling in arena makes that clear anyway.

 

I played warrior, found SPB to be quite basic, zerker a little harder (strictly mechanics speaking). After reading blade skills/mechanics, which as far as I can tell are even more basic than SPB, the amount of sustain and tank blade gets is astonoshing to me. Im not saying thief is easy like this, infact Ive said multiple times thief has a high skill floor to actually get any killing done, thats obvious from the hp pool/lack of direct sustain, and from playing Pcata which is not worlds apart in playstyle/effort from what I can see. But It also has a massive crutch/abusive element to escape/backcap. Like the example I made with FA scepter cata, too much ability to ''get out'' when you fk up, despite it being a hard spec to learn, which it is, it over perfomed in escape when you got to a certain level (killing aside). Thief is overperforming in ''getting out'', which is often justified by ''it can't group fight''.

 

Let it group fight then, it can jump in and out of stealth sure, nothing wrong with that style, but their needs to be wider universal access to a stealth counterplay. You could go as far as to say every dps specilisation shouold have access to atleat one block/immune an unblockable, and a stealth reveal, which would make more specs viable as they would have the tools to fight other specs. Thieves could get more utility in the realms of immunes/evades, which would add more sustain during reveals in group fights, but are active abilitys in which bad thieves die for the missuse of, any power spec knows that deal.

 

I mean, thats unless you enjoy the current playstyle of thief? it sounds like youre good enough to actually take on the correct 1v1's, get on the correct +1s, and decap. The avg to lower thief basically gets slapped in group fights, then has to rely on the crutch stealth/mobility to just bounce between empty nodes all game, actively trying to avoid pvp contact. Do they really enjoy games when they resort to that? I dunno. I know for sure I completely dislike having to defend against thiefs doing that. If I stand on home all game he might just go mid to try and +1 something. If I go mid, he goes far, and its unlikely he's getting caught unless 2 people dedicate attention to him. I wouldnt even dare go far, that just plays into the thiefs hands, he wins that game on mobility/escape, as I have more chance of getting pined and +1d. Avoiding pvp to win games, cmon, you know thats not healthy, and you know many thieves resort to it.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

46 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

 

anyways gw1 assassin is way cooler than teef could ever be
get a real respectable job like assassin, dweebs

Amen to that.

Not only assassins were cooler, they're also more original and required more skill since a single block/evade/dshot would ruin your chain.

And the animations, goddamnit, who do I have to kill to get a blades of steel and nine tail strike animation on gw2?

Edited October 2, 2023 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

2 hours ago, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

There are methods to aim your attack.

Unity3D tier response. No examples, just an implication that in practice is several times more difficult than every other class attack, with no suggestion about how it should be revised to be usable. 

This is why its so hard to have a discussion about this. 

Quote

But when facing off against an invisible opponent there is no counter play. You have have to sit and wait for them to make a mistake. 

You can:

drop a mark or trap under your feet

stand in a no port spot

look for incoming projectiles

about face if you're up against a dagger thief

count to 2.5 and dodge

use an attack that gives you a proc, resource, or flips over if it touches someone in the immediate area to evaluate where the thief is

cast a skill as the thief is stealthing so you can determine what direction they'll go 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

59 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

It also has a massive crutch/abusive element to escape/backcap. Like the example I made with FA scepter cata, too much ability to ''get out'' when you fk up, despite it being a hard spec to learn, which it is, it over perfomed in escape when you got to a certain level (killing aside). Thief is overperforming in ''getting out'', which is often justified by ''it can't group fight''.

Again, don't think that mobility is a crutch given the current state of thief, but that aside~ 

Quote

Let it group fight then, it can jump in and out of stealth sure, nothing wrong with that style, but their needs to be wider universal access to a stealth counterplay. You could go as far as to say every dps specilisation shouold have access to atleat one block/immune an unblockable, and a stealth reveal, which would make more specs viable as they would have the tools to fight other specs. Thieves could get more utility in the realms of immunes/evades, which would add more sustain during reveals in group fights, but are active abilitys in which bad thieves die for the missuse of, any power spec knows that deal.

If thief is built in a way that stealth is not critical to its survival, this is fine. It would require several adjustments to cooldowns and initiative costs in addition to active mitigation, but as long as the end result is usable, I don't care which mechanic is the vehicle to get there.

Quote

I mean, thats unless you enjoy the current playstyle of thief?

It's fine.

I've been around for several balancing time periods where thief had low mobility, high evasion builds (or low stealth, high evasion builds), and the response to those were just as aggressive and complainy as the current stance on stealth. People were here complaining about feline grace and smokescreen, and acrobatics, and staff, and the constant whine associated with those pushed thief into the playstyle you see today.

As I mentioned in another thread, I don't mind playing fair, but fair seems to constantly be whatever thief isn't currently doing. If you want thieves to not be running about and decapping your points for the health of the game, give them back some of their build flexibility. But if you do that you're going to have to deal with thieves that can fight. 

You're in the minority of people that want that. 

Quote

The avg to lower thief basically gets slapped in group fights, then has to rely on the crutch stealth/mobility to just bounce between empty nodes all game, actively trying to avoid pvp contact. Do they really enjoy games when they resort to that? I dunno. I know for sure I completely dislike having to defend against thiefs doing that. 

Side thought, this is the first time I've ever seen people annoyed with the fact that thieves aren't bothering them. It's certainly a new take. If giving up some mobility for some staying power is what you want, great, but every time this has been afforded to thief it's usually met with people frothingly upset they are no longer on decap duty.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[cyberzombie.7348]

1 hour ago, Shagie.7612 said:

anyways gw1 assassin is way cooler than teef could ever be
get a real respectable job like assassin, dweebs

I used to but they keep nerfing my assassination builds.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

4 hours ago, Endorphin.9147 said:

Aint no one gonna go into kitten action camera to aim their stealth attack then turn it off after. Youd miss so often they would have to rewrite the targetting for all the ranged stealth attacks. This idea is terrible.

I play in action camera mode exclusively.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

3 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Unity3D tier response. No examples, just an implication that in practice is several times more difficult than every other class attack, with no suggestion about how it should be revised to be usable. 

This is why its so hard to have a discussion about this. 

You can:

drop a mark or trap under your feet

stand in a no port spot

look for incoming projectiles

about face if you're up against a dagger thief

count to 2.5 and dodge

use an attack that gives you a proc, resource, or flips over if it touches someone in the immediate area to evaluate where the thief is

cast a skill as the thief is stealthing so you can determine what direction they'll go 

No class I play has these "traps" or "mark" those are class mechanic exclusive to only a select few.

[Endo.1652]

3 hours ago, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

I play in action camera mode exclusively.

May god have mercy on this poor soul

[Kervv.6039]

11 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

I never once said thieves should not have stealth, I have no problem with the concept of it, I played wow for many years and had plenty of good fights vs rogues.

 

 

1. Stop saying you fought rogues in WoW as some sort of defense. If you want to fight rogues in WoW run along.

2. Stop avoiding the question.

[magickthief.6492]

On 9/30/2023 at 1:03 AM, Buran.3796 said:

  Usally the things which players hate the most are dealing with circumstances in which they have 0 control or ways to deal with, for example: being chainstuned for 8 seconds in Diablo IV.

   GW2 has some combos which allow players to cc foes and then to land heavy burst of damage on them. Stealth highly increases the chances of having success at hitting your foe with the first step of a highly damaging combo with  narrow chances for the changes to prevent the full effect. 

   Imagine playing  a Tekken game in which the Mishima characters could go invisible to land their Electric Wind Godfist...

   Stealth is an overpowered mechanic in GW2, not only in terms of damage but also defensive potential, and is not like doesn't exist in other games, but other games did best at trying to balance that potential.

Other games? I pointed out a mostly stealthless build, and players couldn't handle it. The facts are that most player are BAD BAD. The quality of today is like planned obsoletion, you can actively bet the quality is worse. There are a few players that seem to wreck every player, but those guys were average prior to POF, the game ender. We reached a point, where the complaints have come back around, yet there have been no buffs. So, evidently, the players are the same quality as the game, and I'll leave it at that. I'll swap to be a bladesworn main, cause that takes more skill apparently.

[magickthief.6492]

9 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I didn't say anything about this either. (Granted I -did- imply it earlier, but that was a joke.) I'm saying a large part of your argument is founded on the assumption that you know what an average thief looks like. If you won't even play the class because, based on your wiki searches (and fighting it), the class is degenerate, you're missing key information about this.

Namely, the fact that average thieves get wiped off the map faster than any other avg class. A brief journey as a thief would make you aware of this very quickly, but if you're only basing your judgement on the thieves you fight, odds are you are dealing with predominantly people who have played it several times as long as you have played your main. I don't think your opinion of what an avg thief looks like accounts for this.

That is my assertion, anyway.

You're not wrong in your conclusion for bladesworn, but this isn't a justification for the thought process. These classes are different~

Bladesworn is overperforming, but it's also easier than most thief specs to play because of how concrete its rotation is. Thieves have to react to you, bladesworn largely does not because of how its traits work. 

Still though, what do you want instead? If thief is low risk, how should they play? How should we get there?

Average thieves don't live. Play the class for a couple matches and you'll see why. What else do you want?

Which bad plays? How?

How?

Ultimately, the complaints about abilities come down to skill and perception. I've seen top streamers claim a basic skill is OP, as a knee jerk reaction, because it happened to be the one that toppled their house of cards. They, unlike many of the "pros" in the forums, don't feel the need to post about their "expertise" on how to improve the game. They know, that after a little investigation, their claim can be shut down objectively, without bringing up other "unnamed games" that have reach the pinnacle of balance. Balance in a game isn't a scale, its a stack of rocks. It may not look good, but it holds its place.

[Flowki.7194]

23 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Again, don't think that mobility is a crutch given the current state of thief, but that aside~ 

If thief is built in a way that stealth is not critical to its survival, this is fine. It would require several adjustments to cooldowns and initiative costs in addition to active mitigation, but as long as the end result is usable, I don't care which mechanic is the vehicle to get there.

It's fine.

I've been around for several balancing time periods where thief had low mobility, high evasion builds (or low stealth, high evasion builds), and the response to those were just as aggressive and complainy as the current stance on stealth. People were here complaining about feline grace and smokescreen, and acrobatics, and staff, and the constant whine associated with those pushed thief into the playstyle you see today.

As I mentioned in another thread, I don't mind playing fair, but fair seems to constantly be whatever thief isn't currently doing. If you want thieves to not be running about and decapping your points for the health of the game, give them back some of their build flexibility. But if you do that you're going to have to deal with thieves that can fight. 

You're in the minority of people that want that. 

Side thought, this is the first time I've ever seen people annoyed with the fact that thieves aren't bothering them. It's certainly a new take. If giving up some mobility for some staying power is what you want, great, but every time this has been afforded to thief it's usually met with people frothingly upset they are no longer on decap duty.

 

 

 

Mobility is a crutch when it allows you to escape situations you royally messed up in, situations that would get the avg amount of mobility spec killed in. Just like blade sustain is a crutch becuase it allows them to face tank more damage than is reasonable across the avarage. Or put in another way, thieves who know how to abuse the mobility, would die a hell of alot more on less mobile specs for the same mistakes. Blades who rely too much on the ability to face tank, would die a hell of alot more on specs where dmg mitigation is far more active. Those are crutches ''aids'', that help you in situations you'd otherwise do worse in. The crutch in thief is simply masked by the fact it has bad raw sustain/group fight and has a high skill floor in doing actual damage. Killing and escaping are mutually exlusive skills, and escaping takes less over all game sense /skill than killing, becuase killing includes the neccesity (especially for thief) to understand what to avoid on xyz spec while doing dmg.

 

Good thieves and good blades would still do good if the crutch elements are removed, becuase they have the dodge/gamesense aspect, which is a transferable skill. Thieves/blades withought that universal skill, would die a hell of alot more if the crutch element of stealth/mobility was fixed or the dmg mitigation of blade was more active and reactive. The second life of power necro is a crutch. You can see this by the avg power necros, who so willinglingly rush the front line of a mid fight as if they are a spartan. It is a crutch becuase the average dps spec, in the average situation against avg enemy, dies for that, but when the power necros bad habbits are used  around better players, their crutch is negated, and then they die. But for balance, I played a lot of tempest support, and it didn't take long to realise that mag spam is a very specific crutch which develops bad positioning.

 

I said a few times now that if you reduce thief mobility it has to be compensated with more sustain. I asked you what you thought that might look like, what does that look like? I litterally want to face thieves that can fight, rather than constantly running the second they get a sniff of being on the back foot, and only retunring to kill me if low, or to +1. Rogues in wow were fomidable, they could hold their own in most situations, even against hunter, which had strong tools to fight them. Thieves in Gw2 are a border line gimmik, and toxic to fight.

 

16 hours ago, Kervv.6039 said:

1. Stop saying you fought rogues in WoW as some sort of defense. If you want to fight rogues in WoW run along.

2. Stop avoiding the question.

 

I'll say what ever the hell I want. And for the record, its a very good defense, wow was a very good game that got many things right. If you don't like what I have to say, how about you run along?

 

What question?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

49 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

I said a few times now that if you reduce thief mobility it has to be compensated with more sustain. I asked you what you thought that might look like, what does that look like? I litterally want to face thieves that can fight, rather than constantly running the second they get a sniff of being on the back foot.

• Staff not costing 6 init per Vault
• Debilitating arc not costing 5 init per use
• Shortbow 5 not costing 8 init
• Pistol whip not costing 6 init per Pistol whip
• Staff not requiring a target struck to complete the auto chain, so the reflect is available more readily
• Cooldown adjustment for smokescreen (it only lasts 4 seconds now. 45 sec cd is ridiculous.)
• Damage buffs for sword, pistol, dagger main and offhand, and staff #1 and #2
• A rebalancing to Acrobatics that makes Hard to Catch and Instant Reflexes not useless/pointless to take and returns Swindler's Equalibrium to its former damage bonus value of 10% strike damage
• A rebalancing to Deadly arts that makes Panic Strike not useless
• Ricochet returned to Deadly Aim
• Signets of Power not being useless
• a cooldown adjustment to Bandit's defense, withdraw, haste, and dagger storm, since the recharge reductions paired with those were removed without compensation, forcing thieves to hide more often. 
• Palm strike not being useless
• Impacting disruption not being a joke

There ya go. A nice tidy list of how to get thieves to not hide.

Quote

It is a crutch becuase the average dps spec, in the average situation against avg enemy, dies for that, but when the power necros bad habbits are used  around better players, their crutch is negated, and then they die. 

If you can win a fight by simply playing better than them, their mechanics aren't crutches; you just don't like the mechanics. Something that works vs an average player (but gets wiped vs a player that knows what they are doing) constantly getting nerfed because the average player doesn't know how to disassemble it is what removes classes from viability. It's that same kind of reasoning that kept warrior in the garbage bin for years. some players would tank telegraphs and eat damage, but good players knowing what to avoid made the class difficult to play vs anyone of a competent skill level. 

Necro is built around shroud. It wouldn't function properly as a class if it didn't have shroud, unless you radically increased its damage and mobility to compensate. See: Harbinger. 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Cuks.8241]

I think stealth in gw2 is generally badly implemented. For stealth to be good and tactical, the classes that can utilise it need to have clear counter plays and restrictions and risks. 

For example wow rogue where I think stealth implementation was really good (but was still the cause for a sea of tears):

Stealth only out of combat. Reduced movement speed in stealth. 1 long CD re-stealth skill (vanish, in early wow you basically had 1 per match, cd later reduced) that often had to be coupled with another long CD self cleanse to remove dots (cloak). Almost exclusively melee class (exception a few short to medium range skills, blind, premed and throw) and universal counter - stealth was reduced with proximity so once you were close enough you had to commit or be seen. 

Most important this was all true for all rogue builds. You knew exactly what to expect from all rogues.

Every stealth engage was a risk (a small one but still a risk) that came with great reward (huge dmg or4 sec silence or 3 second stun which you basically had to eat unless you wanted to get caught in 6 sec follow up stun). Basically if you messed up stealth engagement you pretty much lost the engagement and probably the match. Every re-stealth which were very limited and predictable had to be tactical. You had to cleanse yourself and you had to make sure your enemy is not able to immediately get you back in combat with a quick aoe which was best done with a pre-emptive cc which you needed to ensure to last long enough (trinket on cd) . Because once in stealth you were again slow unless you poped sprint which was another big CD and at that point you are just wasting to much CDs. Vanish + cloak kinda mitigated that later in the game with a free re-stealth but you still wanted to be 100% sure you will be able to do it.

In gw2 stealth is this spammy thing that has very little risks and tactics involved. I dont think its op unless the class or build at the time is op, like any other class. Its just that it doesnt feel rewarding to pull it off and on the other end it feels like you don't have much counter play against stealth with certain builds. Even if you catch it its not the end of the world. In wow when you caught a rogue after re-stealth or during engage it was huge, it was a complete game changer. If he was not immediately dead he at least had to waste so many long CDs that he was in great disadvantage for minutes.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

12 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Every stealth engage was a risk (a small one but still a risk) that came with great reward (huge dmg or4 sec silence or 3 second stun which you basically had to eat unless you wanted to get caught in 6 sec follow up stun). Basically if you messed up stealth engagement you pretty much lost the engagement and probably the match

*rubs temples* people want gank thieves again. What is this groundhog day? We doin another time loop? This is just basilisk D/P Thief circa 2015.

Not directed at quote, and I'm not complaining (because I don't mind low stealth as long as it works), but- Y'all think you want this but you don't. Overlaying your opinion of Rogue from WoW onto this game will go poorly.

Again, not directed at quote, but at the general nature of shifting goalposts where the new goalpost is something we did in the past, to equal amounts of tears:

Hopefully people make up their minds about which thief flavor they want so I don't need to keep relearning my kit for something as nebulous and worthless as my opponent respecting my efforts*

 

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261
*lmao

[vilesoldier.9826]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

If you can win a fight by simply playing better than them, their mechanics aren't crutches; you just don't like the mechanics. Something that works vs an average player (but gets wiped vs a player that knows what they are doing) constantly getting nerfed because the average player doesn't know how to disassemble it is what removes classes from viability.

 

Azure, you gotta consider the possibility that Flowki speaks for a type of pvper that is content with being at their skill level for a long time, a level so realistic that that it's easier to have the game conform to them than the other way around. This is an mmo after all, it attracts a wider spectrum of players with different goals.

*mods, no indication of where that skill level is 🏆*

 

A rather devious tactic, however, seems to be making big balance claims directed at a wide variety of classes/specs (specs that are VERY debatable in power-level) but when pressed about those ideas, defaulting back to examples of clearly absurd power-level specs 🤔

 

Oh you think that guy is making a good point about Bladesworn being cheap because it's sustain/aegis/stats are too high? Well that SAME guy has a fundamental issues with DH being able to place traps 🤷‍♂️

Edited October 3, 2023 by vilesoldier.9826

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

• Staff not costing 6 init per Vault
• Debilitating arc not costing 5 init per use
• Shortbow 5 not costing 8 init
• Pistol whip not costing 6 init per Pistol whip
• Staff not requiring a target struck to complete the auto chain, so the reflect is available more readily
• Cooldown adjustment for smokescreen (it only lasts 4 seconds now. 45 sec cd is ridiculous.)
• Damage buffs for sword, pistol, dagger main and offhand, and staff #1 and #2
• A rebalancing to Acrobatics that makes Hard to Catch and Instant Reflexes not useless/pointless to take and returns Swindler's Equalibrium to its former damage bonus value of 10% strike damage
• A rebalancing to Deadly arts that makes Panic Strike not useless
• Ricochet returned to Deadly Aim
• Signets of Power not being useless
• a cooldown adjustment to Bandit's defense, withdraw, haste, and dagger storm, since the recharge reductions paired with those were removed without compensation, forcing thieves to hide more often. 
• Palm strike not being useless
• Impacting disruption not being a joke

There ya go. A nice tidy list of how to get thieves to not hide.

If you can win a fight by simply playing better than them, their mechanics aren't crutches; you just don't like the mechanics. Something that works vs an average player (but gets wiped vs a player that knows what they are doing) constantly getting nerfed because the average player doesn't know how to disassemble it is what removes classes from viability. It's that same kind of reasoning that kept warrior in the garbage bin for years. some players would tank telegraphs and eat damage, but good players knowing what to avoid made the class difficult to play vs anyone of a competent skill level. 

Necro is built around shroud. It wouldn't function properly as a class if it didn't have shroud, unless you radically increased its damage and mobility to compensate. See: Harbinger. 

Then you should advocate such changes more, rather than defending the current stealth mechanics which pigeon hole good thiefs, and act as a crutch for avg thiefs (we are never going to agree on the crutch element so might aswell drop that duscussion).

[Flowki.7194]

9 minutes ago, vilesoldier.9826 said:

 

Azure, you gotta consider the possibility that Flowki speaks for a type of pvper that is content with being at their skill level for a long time, a level so realistic that that it's easier to have the game conform to them than the other way around. This is an mmo after all, it attracts a wider spectrum of players with different goals.

*mods, no indication of where that skill level is 🏆*

 

A rather devious tactic, however, seems to be making big balance claims directed at a wide variety of classes/specs (specs that are VERY debatable in power-level) but when pressed about those ideas, defaulting back to examples of clearly absurd power-level specs 🤔

 

Oh you think that guy is making a good point about Bladesworn being cheap because it's sustain/aegis/stats are too high? Well that SAME guy has a fundamental issues with DH being able to place traps 🤷‍♂️

 

Ive continually improved at this game, and continually stopped/avoided playing specific specs that stink of unfair or toxic mechanics. I don't blame people for liking to play what they like to play, but defending certain things purely out of spec/class bias, have at it. There are countless examples of bad mechanics in this game, I use some of the current ones to draw points from. Should we get into all the aoe support, damage, abilitys that do 3+ things for 1 button, and passive mitigations? sure, make a thread.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Flowki.7194]

6 minutes ago, vilesoldier.9826 said:

 

DO THE SAME FOR ELE YOU HYPOCRITEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

 

Ive made plenty of ele suggestions to remove toxic mechanics ;pp how long have I been in your head bud?

[Psycoprophet.8107]

1 hour ago, Cuks.8241 said:

I think stealth in gw2 is generally badly implemented. For stealth to be good and tactical, the classes that can utilise it need to have clear counter plays and restrictions and risks. 

For example wow rogue where I think stealth implementation was really good (but was still the cause for a sea of tears):

Stealth only out of combat. Reduced movement speed in stealth. 1 long CD re-stealth skill (vanish, in early wow you basically had 1 per match, cd later reduced) that often had to be coupled with another long CD self cleanse to remove dots (cloak). Almost exclusively melee class (exception a few short to medium range skills, blind, premed and throw) and universal counter - stealth was reduced with proximity so once you were close enough you had to commit or be seen. 

Most important this was all true for all rogue builds. You knew exactly what to expect from all rogues.

Every stealth engage was a risk (a small one but still a risk) that came with great reward (huge dmg or4 sec silence or 3 second stun which you basically had to eat unless you wanted to get caught in 6 sec follow up stun). Basically if you messed up stealth engagement you pretty much lost the engagement and probably the match. Every re-stealth which were very limited and predictable had to be tactical. You had to cleanse yourself and you had to make sure your enemy is not able to immediately get you back in combat with a quick aoe which was best done with a pre-emptive cc which you needed to ensure to last long enough (trinket on cd) . Because once in stealth you were again slow unless you poped sprint which was another big CD and at that point you are just wasting to much CDs. Vanish + cloak kinda mitigated that later in the game with a free re-stealth but you still wanted to be 100% sure you will be able to do it.

In gw2 stealth is this spammy thing that has very little risks and tactics involved. I dont think its op unless the class or build at the time is op, like any other class. Its just that it doesnt feel rewarding to pull it off and on the other end it feels like you don't have much counter play against stealth with certain builds. Even if you catch it its not the end of the world. In wow when you caught a rogue after re-stealth or during engage it was huge, it was a complete game changer. If he was not immediately dead he at least had to waste so many long CDs that he was in great disadvantage for minutes.

U do kno rogues in wow also had 1 stealth skill that worked when in combat to restealth and disengage, it basically functioned the same as the outa combat stealth.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

25 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Then you should advocate such changes more, rather than defending the current stealth mechanics which pigeon hole good thiefs, and act as a crutch for avg thiefs (we are never going to agree on the crutch element so might aswell drop that duscussion).

Nah.

Like I said before, every time thief balance moves toward something usable, the arguments for nerfing are always "actually, this is cringe it should be the other way. "

As long as it works and people are aware the end result has to work, I don't care. 

You can do it though~ when the changes go through I'll swap over to the more honorable version. I'm just here to make sure people remember they can't nerf a class to uselessness while declaring it balance. 

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261