Vindicator

[GamerToad.9248]

Perma vigor in team flights make it some annoying build do deal with.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Dat OP 1/2 second of vigor.

[Eddie.9143]

Nah u right they can avoid damage for a while with dodges, evasion relic, more dodges, staff blocks, gs blocks, 3 heals, and teleports. And they can also pump all their damage out in about 3 seconds after all that avoidance, and then cycle right back into the same avoidance. It's a great pillaring / terrain spec in the way it can use quickness ports and dodges to get it's damage out safely and quickly and then retreat before bursting again. 

[arazoth.7290]

14 hours ago, GamerToad.9248 said:

Perma vigor in team flights make it some annoying build do deal with.

no idea what you smoking 😅, relic of evasion you probably mean 😅. There isn't another way to get almost perma vigor without relic of evasion

[SleepyBat.9034]

The number two issue with Vindi is that I dislike how many traits modify your dodge/endurance regen. I can understand having a few traits that work like that but I think Vindi overdoes it. It has 3 traits in the same tier that do the same thing except one does it way better than the others, so why does it need 3 versions? It doesn't make any sense.

[arazoth.7290]

45 minutes ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

The number two issue with Vindi is that I dislike how many traits modify your dodge/endurance regen. I can understand having a few traits that work like that but I think Vindi overdoes it. It has 3 traits in the same tier that do the same thing except one does it way better than the others, so why does it need 3 versions? It doesn't make any sense.

The vindi 3 trait in the same tier are indeed competing what gives the most endurance. The first and last are in pvp hard nerfed, that the middle which was never taken after only these many nerfs is the best. The amount of endurance vindicator gets from these in WvW is neglectent at this moment and that's fine, I main rev yes. 

For my part the one that gives vigor should be 1,5 sec vigor instead of 0,5 seconds. The other 2 remaining traits, change those that buff the elite spec around alliance stance. The other 2 should be something else then endurance

[Sereath.1428]

11 hours ago, Eddie.9143 said:

Nah u right they can avoid damage for a while with dodges, evasion relic, more dodges, staff blocks, gs blocks, 3 heals, and teleports. And they can also pump all their damage out in about 3 seconds after all that avoidance, and then cycle right back into the same avoidance. It's a great pillaring / terrain spec in the way it can use quickness ports and dodges to get it's damage out safely and quickly and then retreat before bursting again. 

With what energy is anyone doing that? Show me one clip, I want to learn.

"I swear man, revenant is always Phase Traversal'ing in from spawn, then using Jade Winds, then Riposting Shadow'ing before legend swapping. Right after they use orange stunbreak and also summon a spear, then Scavenger Burst or Nomads Advance before swapping to blue side (they get free energy from swapping between orange and blue right? right? so easy), then either Battle Dance spam or Tree Song spam so they are immune to everything. All that for 9 consecutive seconds while also spamming weapon skills on cd, literally worse than thief. And then they swap legend for more free energy! And like 3 heals! Enchanted Daggers which passively heal you. A second one for 2.8k and a third one for 3.5k, both channeled and in a 30s cd! Literally better than Mending. Teleporting, blocking, evading and with massive cleave all with swords, staff and greatsword, at the same time."

 

9 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

The vindi 3 trait in the same tier are indeed competing what gives the most endurance. The first and last are in pvp hard nerfed, that the middle which was never taken after only these many nerfs is the best. The amount of endurance vindicator gets from these in WvW is neglectent at this moment and that's fine, I main rev yes. 

For my part the one that gives vigor should be 1,5 sec vigor instead of 0,5 seconds. The other 2 remaining traits, change those that buff the elite spec around alliance stance. The other 2 should be something else then endurance

Yeah they are all so bad, typical balancing. And the Retribution traitline was similarly nerfed to death (endurance regen and vigor).
God forbid if there is synergy with anything, especially within an mmorpg.
"X/Y class My game should always be played a certain way."
- The average uninterested dev

And the Evasion Relic is very weak in spvp, should be something between the wvw version and now, so 3s vigor for 1s cd. Many relics feel this weak tbf, no wonder why most builds keep taking the same 2 or 3 relics with free damage.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Sereath.1428

[magickthief.6492]

Vindicators took "just dodge" literally

[Buran.3796]

17 hours ago, Eddie.9143 said:

Nah u right they can avoid damage for a while with dodges, evasion relic, more dodges, staff blocks, gs blocks, 3 heals, and teleports. And they can also pump all their damage out in about 3 seconds after all that avoidance, and then cycle right back into the same avoidance. It's a great pillaring / terrain spec in the way it can use quickness ports and dodges to get it's damage out safely and quickly and then retreat before bursting again. 

      Overall Revenant has been dead at MATs for more than a year; the few ones you see from time to time achieved nothing for their teams. I think ANet did a good job at nuking Rev out of PvP after the 6 first months of EoD release.

   I mean: they destroyed Renegade a couple of years ago with the nerfs to Jalis and Retribution, then they crippled Herald before the EoD release making Devastation a joke no one choses, so with EoD the only choice was Vindi, which of course was unbalanced, and after a rollercoaster of patches ended in a very neutered state in which is largely irrelevant. Oh yes, has 3 heals every 30 seconds, all of them for pity amounts... 

   You want to known a skill which is really broken for PvP Rev? Downstate #2: you still can break a match pushing an enemy player inside a wall, forcing them to relog and breaking the match entirely. And you will see flying pigs in real life before it gets fixed...

[Eddie.9143]

18 hours ago, Sereath.1428 said:

With what energy is anyone doing that? Show me one clip, I want to learn.

"I swear man, revenant is always Phase Traversal'ing in from spawn, then using Jade Winds, then Riposting Shadow'ing before legend swapping. Right after they use orange stunbreak and also summon a spear, then Scavenger Burst or Nomads Advance before swapping to blue side (they get free energy from swapping between orange and blue right? right? so easy), then either Battle Dance spam or Tree Song spam so they are immune to everything. All that for 9 consecutive seconds while also spamming weapon skills on cd, literally worse than thief. And then they swap legend for more free energy! And like 3 heals! Enchanted Daggers which passively heal you. A second one for 2.8k and a third one for 3.5k, both channeled and in a 30s cd! Literally better than Mending. Teleporting, blocking, evading and with massive cleave all with swords, staff and greatsword, at the same time."

Spear, scavenger burst, swap phase traversal, dodge, death strike, swap to gs, dodge, burst, dodge. 

 

Tons of quickness, like 13-20k damage, a 2 ports, 3 dodges (that do damage and increase damage)

[ArthurDent.9538]

2 hours ago, Eddie.9143 said:

Spear, scavenger burst, swap phase traversal, dodge, death strike, swap to gs, dodge, burst, dodge. 

 

Tons of quickness, like 13-20k damage, a 2 ports, 3 dodges (that do damage and increase damage)

Or, enemy has a brain and pre-casts a stun during the obvious phase traversal animation and 100-0's the rev before can afford a stunbreak.

[oujiboardspamname.1932]

9 minutes ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

Or, enemy has a brain and pre-casts a stun during the obvious phase traversal animation and 100-0's the rev before can afford a stunbreak.

PT needs a quicker cast time. I don't use it for the unblockable, purely mobility.. makes IO work a lot better when you don't PT. 

 

35 energy on a skill that has a 30/70 of creating opportunity. Terrible. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by oujiboardspamname.1932
35 energy on a skill that has a 30/70 of creating opportunity. Terrible. 

[Burnfall.9573]

On 10/5/2023 at 9:25 PM, GamerToad.9248 said:

Perma vigor in team flights make it some annoying build do deal with.

Revenant Profession - Vindicator need to be severely nerfed to the ground, Unlike Bad Design Willlebender, that must be entirely removed from Guardian Profession Specialization. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[arazoth.7290]

35 minutes ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

Guardian Profession - Vindicator need to be severely nerfed to the ground, Unlike Bad Design Willlebender, that must be entirely removed from Guardian Profession Specialization. 

maybe l2p and dodge 😂

[Eddie.9143]

1 hour ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

Or, enemy has a brain and pre-casts a stun during the obvious phase traversal animation and 100-0's the rev before can afford a stunbreak.

Yeah no one's doing that. Can also just wait on PT and now you've baited their stun. Vindi has more outplay potential than a lot of other classes. Can also dodge immediately after PT if you're that scared of getting 100-0 somehow

[Flowki.7194]

Vigor simply implies more dodges, and dodging is a skill that requires you to know when and what you are dodging. I'd prefere more vigor and less of things like resistence/protection/aegis etc.. which are just passive boons that mitigate facetanking.

 

All of vindis abilitys are well broadcast, maybe even too broadcast compared to many other specs (rev in general). The only thing I always had an issue with on vidni, was the ability to do damage with a dodge, it just never seemed right to me that you get rewarded with a 4k crit, ontop of the reward of avoiding a 4k+ crit. It is ironic or ludicrous? that you have to actually consider dodging a vindis dodge. Aside from that, I have no real complaints about any rev spec, playing as or against (spvp at least).

 

Cele vindi might be an issue in wvw I can see that, it reminds me too much of ele, benefits from all types of dmg/healing.. but thats nothing to do with vigor uptime.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Sereath.1428]

1 hour ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Vigor simply implies more dodges, and dodging is a skill that requires you to know when and what you are dodging. I'd prefere more vigor and less of things like resistence/protection/aegis etc.. which are just passive boons that mitigate facetanking.

 

All of vindis abilitys are well broadcast, maybe even too broadcast compared to many other specs (rev in general). The only thing I always had an issue with on vidni, was the ability to do damage with a dodge, it just never seemed right to me that you get rewarded with a 4k crit, ontop of the reward of avoiding a 4k+ crit. It is ironic or ludicrous? that you have to actually consider dodging a vindis dodge. Aside from that, I have no real complaints about any rev spec, playing as or against (spvp at least).

 

Cele vindi might be an issue in wvw I can see that, it reminds me too much of ele, benefits from all types of dmg/healing.. but thats nothing to do with vigor uptime.

I completely agree, especially the damage part on the dodge. I don't like it either.
It's very funny how Death Drop is even stronger here than in WvW, while Imperial Impact
(middle dodge with a fifth of the damage but with half a second of protection and might)
was nerfed hard a while ago, and instead of Death Drop, which was already the best dodge, 3k-4k per dodge with a +15% damage buff for 10s.

And I know why CM©️ whoever "balances" this game mode, did it:
They simply want vindi players to burn all their dodges on cd, for the damage and the 10s damage buff, so that both they and their opponents fold very quickly.
Which is in fact poor gameplay.
Unfortunate that such a cool spec has to be played very one-dimensionally, otherwise you lose a lot by not taking Death Drop and abusing its damage and damage buff. (The patch that nerfed Imperial Impact also nerfed numerous GS and Alliance skills, so you really need to take Death Drop right now to be competitive)
So yes, the whole spec is balanced around Death Drop and many classes seem to suffer from this, balanced around only one play style/skill/utility/trait.

It's poor game design, if you ask me, when you punish players for playing differently than how you would like.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Sereath.1428

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Vigor simply implies more dodges, and dodging is a skill that requires you to know when and what you are dodging. I'd prefere more vigor and less of things like resistence/protection/aegis etc.. which are just passive boons that mitigate facetanking.

 

All of vindis abilitys are well broadcast, maybe even too broadcast compared to many other specs (rev in general). The only thing I always had an issue with on vidni, was the ability to do damage with a dodge, it just never seemed right to me that you get rewarded with a 4k crit, ontop of the reward of avoiding a 4k+ crit. It is ironic or ludicrous? that you have to actually consider dodging a vindis dodge. Aside from that, I have no real complaints about any rev spec, playing as or against (spvp at least).

 

Cele vindi might be an issue in wvw I can see that, it reminds me too much of ele, benefits from all types of dmg/healing.. but thats nothing to do with vigor uptime.

The damage dodge part is only on the end and can sometimes even be avoided. So if you sacrifice dodges for damage, you get punished. If you use it for dodging only, it does damage if you hit the target unless you're kiting it isn't. So if kiting, you lose damage and no extra sustain from the other vindi dodge traitlines and more vulnerable because of it. It is a double edged blade many times at cost of dps and sustain. The damage after last patch nerfs on it makes it not too much, unless you go full invo/devastation traits, but then you are squishy.

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by arazoth.7290

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Sereath.1428 said:

I completely agree, especially the damage part on the dodge. I don't like it either.
It's very funny how Death Drop is even stronger here than in WvW, while Imperial Impact
(middle dodge with a fifth of the damage but with half a second of protection and might)
was nerfed hard a while ago, and instead of Death Drop, which was already the best dodge, 3k-4k per dodge with a +15% damage buff for 10s.

And I know why CM©️ whoever "balances" this game mode, did it:
They simply want vindi players to burn all their dodges on cd, for the damage and the 10s damage buff, so that both they and their opponents fold very quickly.
Which is in fact poor gameplay.
Unfortunate that such a cool spec has to be played very one-dimensionally, otherwise you lose a lot by not taking Death Drop and abusing its damage and damage buff. (The patch that nerfed Imperial Impact also nerfed numerous GS and Alliance skills, so you really need to take Death Drop right now to be competitive)
So yes, the whole spec is balanced around Death Drop and many classes seem to suffer from this, balanced around only one play style/skill/utility/trait.

It's poor game design, if you ask me, when you punish players for playing differently than how you would like.

It isn't as 1 dimensional you make it be. It can be used pure offensive, offensive and defensive same time and only defensive. These 3 require in what situations to use it and how to work your other abilities around it. Using your dodge in 1 of those 3 situations will impact how you use your abilties in different ways. It might seem 1 dimensional, but it is more complicated then on first eye if you want to get the most out of it and requires time to learn when to get best advantage of this all 

[Sereath.1428]

It is obviously "riskier" to play Death Drop than Imperial Impact or Saint's Shield.
But that doesn't change the fact that one is significantly more impactful on the field than the rest, most of the time.

4k damage + 15% damage buff
vs
0.5 seconds of protection + 2 stacks of might
vs
500 heal + 500 barrier
After all, the best defence is a good offence.
(and obviously roleplay heal vindi takes saints shield, I know that)

It's bad game design to have multiple options, but in the end have one that is simply way above the rest in most situations.
If you put a playstyle into the game (traits, weapons) then the expectation is to at least attempt to make them all equally competent. Otherwise it's dead content. 
(The thing is for devs to at least try, because ofc it would be impossible to make everything as effective. To show interest by experimenting more each patch.)
Balancing a whole spec around a single thing is terrible design as well, such as engineers taking grenades for almost everything, guardians with the mandatory Renewed Focus, etc.

And this is a critic for the whole game, because as I said, many classes suffer from this: Complete trait-lines dead, useless weapons in every game mode, and so on.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Sereath.1428

[arazoth.7290]

7 minutes ago, Sereath.1428 said:

It is obviously "riskier" to play Death Drop than Imperial Impact or Saint's Shield.
But that doesn't change the fact that one is significantly more impactful on the field than the rest, most of the time.

4k damage + 15% damage buff
vs
0.5 seconds of protection + 2 stacks of might
vs
500 heal + 500 barrier
After all, the best defence is a good offence.
(and obviously roleplay heal vindi takes saints shield, I know that)

It's bad game design to have multiple options, but in the end have one that is simply way above the rest in most situations.
If you put a playstyle into the game (traits, weapons) then the expectation is to at least attempt to make them all equally competent. Otherwise it's dead content. 
(The thing is for devs to at least try, because ofc it would be impossible to make everything as effective. To show interest by experimenting more each patch.)
Balancing a whole spec around a single thing is terrible design as well, such as engineers taking grenades for almost everything. Guardians with the mandatory Renewed Focus, etc.

And this is a critic for the whole game, because as I said, many classes suffer from this: Complete trait-lines dead, useless weapons in every game mode, and so on.

The last 2 got some nerfs compared to the 1 st atm.

• The 3rd which gives asorb + healing znd increase outgoing, should be doing 700 baseline healing + asorb. This is because it is more effective used if you go support.

• The 2nd which applies longer boon duration + might stacks could have more might stacks and 2 sec boon duration increase. This way the self buffing isn't that extensive but better balanced out.

 

The 1st traitline shouldn't be suffering because you compare it against too heavy nerfed traitlines. 

[arazoth.7290]

18 minutes ago, Sereath.1428 said:

4k damage + 15% damage buff

(and obviously roleplay heal vindi takes saints shield, I know that)

4k is only if you go full glass canon invocation/devastation which is really glassy to play if you get counter damage. The 4k is also only if the enemy has no protection boon or other self damage mitigation active. And if you have no resistance while having weakness condi it also less.

Also I have build that make support on vindicator more effective to use with imperial impact, since saints shield lacks some because of nerfs atm

Edited October 8, 2023 by arazoth.7290

[Sereath.1428]

1 minute ago, arazoth.7290 said:

The last 2 got some nerfs compared to the 1 st atm.

• The 3rd which gives asorb + healing znd increase outgoing, should be doing 700 baseline healing + asorb. This is because it is more effective used if you go support.

• The 2nd which applies longer boon duration + might stacks could have more might stacks and 2 sec boon duration increase. This way the self buffing isn't that extensive but better balanced out.

 

The 1st traitline shouldn't be suffering because you compare it against too heavy nerfed traitlines. 

It does sound like I'm advocating for a Death Drop nerf, but no, not my main intention. Last thing I want is more vindi nerfs after its already so fragile, which is why I came to this thread.
I would actually really like buffs to the other underused ones, specially Imperial Impact, for sure it should at least give another second of boon extension because that's a very interesting mechanic.
I just wanted to avoid using the word "buffs" next to revenant because some people here lose their minds and start ranting about Herald being competitive for like 5 years (even though the game is 11 years old now, so that stopped mattering a while ago).

[arazoth.7290]

1 minute ago, Sereath.1428 said:

It does sound like I'm advocating for a Death Drop nerf, but no, not my main intention. Last thing I want is more vindi nerfs after its already so fragile, which is why I came to this thread.
I would actually really like buffs to the other underused ones, specially Imperial Impact, for sure it should at least give another second of boon extension because that's a very interesting mechanic.
I just wanted to avoid using the word "buffs" next to revenant because some people here lose their minds and start ranting about Herald being competitive for like 5 years (even though the game is 11 years old now, so that stopped mattering a while ago).

okayy, looked like it for a while 😅

[Sereath.1428]

7 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

4k is only if you go full glass canon invocation/devastation which is really glassy to play if you get counter damage. The 4k is also only if the enemy has no protection boon or other self damage mitigation active. And if you have no resistance while having weakness condi it also less.

Also I have build that make support on vindicator more effective to use with imperial impact, since saints shield lacks some because of nerfs atm

 

3 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

okayy, looked like it for a while 😅

And yes, you are right, it's only 4k with full glass cannon (Devastation). Playing without Salvation nowadays feels terrible.
I just hate not having good damage for not taking Death Drop and taking Imperial Impact instead in spvp, opposite to WvW.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Sereath.1428