Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Profebolter.4038]

NOTE: I do not mean everyone, but rather some.

Well, then if people do not like to have easy raids, it would only be to eliminate the KPs. So that everyone can access them without any problem. Why would not you like that to be done?

Many ideas have already been thought of, how we can help new people. But the ideas that have been given are not going to solve anything at the moment.

-Implement a viewer in the incursions. It will not help anything, because the user will only see, but not know at the time of practice and surely many would be against users to look inside the games.

-Implement raid masters to guide new players to raids. Optimize builds, explain bosses mechanics, etc, etc. But it will not work, because it is not going to reward the teacher and for it would be a waste of time foolishly. And nobody is going to want to do it

And there are other more ideas. But that will not be profitable.

So.......

Will most users be left without access to the raids?

Well here you are proving that my theory is 100% true, that a lot of people only think about themselves and not for the rest of the people. The content has to be accessible to all the players, but the community that there is now and the attitude that is having, is that they do not want to have new people in the raids.

So, not only do you have to reform the incursions, but also reform the behavior of the players in case, because to get to this point, you have no forgiveness.

As I said before, the game has to be accessible to all without there being any obstacle by which players can access. Also the players have to have fun. If the players do not have fun, then it would not be a game.

That's why it was commented, an easy way of incursions. Because it seems to be an idea of ​​the most feasible right now.

That we rob you people of a higher level? Then, the fault is not ours in case, if not yours. If people want to make content more relaxing and fun with a smaller reward. Well then people are going to go, because they will not want to have a challenging but at the same time stressful content.

So much that you ask for challenging content. Why are not you doing the CMs of wing 4 and 5 even though you have done it? There, you are sinking your own ship.

Because people only do CMs, basically for achievement and titles and only 1 time. And a very small part of the people do the CMs again. (only in incursions)

And I do not say it, it reflects in the lfg. If I see groups of raids that are only going to make normal that are more than 100 groups, and I only see that one of them include doing the CMs of wing 4 and 5. So, we are talking about people, do not want a stressful content , if not the other way around. AND MORE, a Monday where the raids are reset.

The proofs are on the table, and I apologize for the abruptness of my behavior that I have been able to commit, but there they are.

Because if all you know is to put more obstacles, that makes you toxic players in case.

It seems sad to me, that a person who invests a lot of time in this game, can not access content that he would like to access, because of the community itself.

This is my opinion and now I will give you my story as a player.

---

Basically, I do not raid with people in the lfg, because most of the times I've played, it has shown a lot of toxicity and that for me, kill the fun, I just want this game, is that I and the rest of the people have fun since that is the purpose of this game. That's why I did not raid more in the lfg, I just raided with well-known people who need help, whether it's missing a member next week, or need my support so that they feel more secure when it comes to raiding I do not care, but of course I enjoy being with them, they know that they can count on me at any time. Sometimes I complete all the wings, sometimes I do not, sincerely I do not care. Because there are other raids that await me in the other games, I have more fun being there, than here. In those games, I only do raid.

I enjoy raiding as long as it is fun and not stressful, if one day to say something challenging because we feel motivated, we do it, we fail ... well at least we have laughed and we have fun as teammates, either with people from the LFG or with the guild.

And the manifest, so that you have an idea of my opinion and why of it.

Greetings to all

[Feanor.2358]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:What is not nice is strawmaning what I said to such extreme levels. Where exactly did I say I don't care? In fact, I said pretty much the opposite - that the players who raid

actually like it and have fun raiding

, implying I would very much like them to keep doing it. I won't stand twisting my words like that.If they like it and have fun raiding, then, unless Anet really flubs reward levels (making easy mode more rewarding than current one), they'd continue to do it and you have nothing to worry about. If they stop doing the current mode and move to the easy one, it would just mean they didn't have as much fun as you assumed.In which case we're back to my previous argument - demanding they don't have other options just so

you

can have fun is not nice, and it definitely ignores what's good for those players. You'd be having fun at the expense of others.

See above, I already explained. Either easy mode will be pointless or it will suck away the playerbase. And it's not because the playerbase doesn't like raiding, they'll be forced to by increased lfg times.

I thought most raiders have static guild groups, these seems like it will only effect Pugs, which if I recall, Anet apparently didn’t design raiding for.

Members of static groups unfortunately are people too, and sometimes are forced to miss the scheduled raid.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:What is not nice is strawmaning what I said to such extreme levels. Where exactly did I say I don't care? In fact, I said pretty much the opposite - that the players who raid

actually like it and have fun raiding

, implying I would very much like them to keep doing it. I won't stand twisting my words like that.If they like it and have fun raiding, then, unless Anet really flubs reward levels (making easy mode more rewarding than current one), they'd continue to do it and you have nothing to worry about. If they stop doing the current mode and move to the easy one, it would just mean they didn't have as much fun as you assumed.In which case we're back to my previous argument - demanding they don't have other options just so

you

can have fun is not nice, and it definitely ignores what's good for those players. You'd be having fun at the expense of others.

See above, I already explained. Either easy mode will be pointless or it will suck away the playerbase. And it's not because the playerbase doesn't like raiding, they'll be forced to by increased lfg times.If the LFG times for True Raider Groups will be long enough to cause players to abandon that mode, it will just mean there was not enough interest in it in the first place.

Nope, that's wrong. You can't ignore every single factor beside interest and pin it all on it. It's an absurd generalization, and it's not how things work.

[CptAurellian.9537]

@runeblade.7514 said:The difference between the two:

• One has fun by denying other having fun- Don't add easy mode so that non-experience raiders would not be able to play raids.
• One has fun by having the ability of having fun- add easy mode so non-experience raiders can play raids at their level.Wrong. Easymodes would at least deprive raiders of content, since it would take a substantial toll on the raid dev team's resources. And that's just in the ideal case where nothing else goes wrong - actually, I'd expect quite some more negative consequences.

[Feanor.2358]

@runeblade.7514 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:Well here is a challenge for you. Give me a reason why you want raids to be as they are, that is not purely self serving, and centered around needing to find self validation in game by acquiring some bauble for you to parade about that the filthy masses should not be allowed to have as well. I say this because you are also adamantly against there being any other PvE path to obtain Legendary Armor.

I'll wait.

Ultimately all reasons here are self-serving. I want the raids to remain as they are because changing them the way you want would wreck them and I'll be unable to keep enjoying them. Because it is about

my

fun, my reasoning is, of course, partially selfish.

Oh good.. well thanks for clearing this up. Petty, self serving, shallow and you can't have fun unless you are denying others their fun.

Well, suddenly I don't care if your fun gets "hurt"

I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you. Should I assume they're true? I'm going to go with "no", because that would make you a hypocrite and I don't want to assume that.

The difference between the two:

• One has fun by denying other having fun- Don't add easy mode so that non-experience raiders would not be able to play raids.
• One has fun by having the ability of having fun- add easy mode so non-experience raiders can play raids at their level.

Except not. We are both convinced that what the other seeks would result in denying him fun. It doesn't even matter who is right, or even if any of us is right. The conviction that we're right alone makes our positions exactly identical.

[Jora.5471]

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@runeblade.7514 said:The difference between the two:

• One has fun by denying other having fun- Don't add easy mode so that non-experience raiders would not be able to play raids.
• One has fun by having the ability of having fun- add easy mode so non-experience raiders can play raids at their level.Wrong. Easymodes would
  at least
  deprive raiders of content, since it would take a substantial toll on the raid dev team's resources. And that's just in the ideal case where nothing else goes wrong - actually, I'd expect quite some more negative consequences.

There is already a substantial toll on the raid dev team's resources by creating raids that is locked for players. I don't see the problem.

[CptAurellian.9537]

What exactly is locked? I must have missed the necessity for an attunement or whatever before you can enter a raid.

[Jora.5471]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@runeblade.7514 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:Well here is a challenge for you. Give me a reason why you want raids to be as they are, that is not purely self serving, and centered around needing to find self validation in game by acquiring some bauble for you to parade about that the filthy masses should not be allowed to have as well. I say this because you are also adamantly against there being any other PvE path to obtain Legendary Armor.

I'll wait.

Ultimately all reasons here are self-serving. I want the raids to remain as they are because changing them the way you want would wreck them and I'll be unable to keep enjoying them. Because it is about

my

fun, my reasoning is, of course, partially selfish.

Oh good.. well thanks for clearing this up. Petty, self serving, shallow and you can't have fun unless you are denying others their fun.

Well, suddenly I don't care if your fun gets "hurt"

I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you. Should I assume they're true? I'm going to go with "no", because that would make you a hypocrite and I don't want to assume that.

The difference between the two:

• One has fun by denying other having fun- Don't add easy mode so that non-experience raiders would not be able to play raids.
• One has fun by having the ability of having fun- add easy mode so non-experience raiders can play raids at their level.

Except not. We are both convinced that what the other seeks would result in denying him fun. It doesn't even matter who is right, or even if any of us is right. The conviction that we're right alone makes our positions exactly identical.

I don't agree. I play T4 fractals and the existence of T1/T2/T3 fractals does not deny me any fun whatsoever.

What does deny me fun is that no one lets me play content such as raids.

[STIHL.2489]

@Feanor.2358 said:I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you.

See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything, you can still have your difficult content, you can still have your legendary armor, you get all your baubles, and even more options, as no doubt you could also do some easy mode if the mood struck you, so, I don't need or want anything that you can't get to make me feel better. That is what separates our motives.

I want to include you people and make the game fun for everyone, you want deny and deprive people of the rewards you feel that should be reserved just to you.

As such there is nothing, petty or self serving about my motives, and you have openly admitted that you can't say the same.

[Feanor.2358]

@runeblade.7514 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@runeblade.7514 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:Well here is a challenge for you. Give me a reason why you want raids to be as they are, that is not purely self serving, and centered around needing to find self validation in game by acquiring some bauble for you to parade about that the filthy masses should not be allowed to have as well. I say this because you are also adamantly against there being any other PvE path to obtain Legendary Armor.

I'll wait.

Ultimately all reasons here are self-serving. I want the raids to remain as they are because changing them the way you want would wreck them and I'll be unable to keep enjoying them. Because it is about

my

fun, my reasoning is, of course, partially selfish.

Oh good.. well thanks for clearing this up. Petty, self serving, shallow and you can't have fun unless you are denying others their fun.

Well, suddenly I don't care if your fun gets "hurt"

I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you. Should I assume they're true? I'm going to go with "no", because that would make you a hypocrite and I don't want to assume that.

The difference between the two:

• One has fun by denying other having fun- Don't add easy mode so that non-experience raiders would not be able to play raids.
• One has fun by having the ability of having fun- add easy mode so non-experience raiders can play raids at their level.

Except not. We are both convinced that what the other seeks would result in denying him fun. It doesn't even matter who is right, or even if any of us is right. The conviction that we're right alone makes our positions exactly identical.

I don't agree. I play T4 fractals and the existence of T1/T2/T3 fractals does not deny me any fun whatsoever.

What does deny me fun is that no one lets me play content such as raids.

But you're not asking for content "such as raids". You're asking for content such as fractals. The defining feature of the raids is their difficulty - precisely what people want to get rid of.

As for the fractals, note the severe difference in rewards in different tiers. This creates a strong incentive for the players to play the highest tier. It would also make the lower tiers more or less pointless if they didn't need them for their initial AR progression. It's exactly what a well-tuned easy mode raid would end up - deserted content almost nobody plays. It's not worth the effort.

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you.

See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything

That's your own conviction. Mine is that you will deprive me of something, regardless if you realize this or not.

[Tyson.5160]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you.

See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything, you can still have your difficult content, you can still have your legendary armor, you get all your baubles, and even more options, as no doubt you could also do some easy mode if the mood struck you, so, I don't need or want anything that you can't get to make me feel better. That is what separates our motives.

I want to include you people and make the game fun for everyone, you want deny and deprive people of the rewards you feel that should be reserved just to you.

As such there is nothing, petty or self serving about my motives, and you have openly admitted that you can't say the same.

This method seems to open the raid mode to more people and the counter argument seems to be people don’t want the raid to open up to others.

[STIHL.2489]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you.

See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything

That's your own conviction. Mine is that you

will

deprive me of something, regardless if you realize this or not.

Oh dear how mean of me.. so tell me.. outside of self serving ego stroking, what would I be depriving you of?

[Feanor.2358]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you.

See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything

That's your own conviction. Mine is that you

will

deprive me of something, regardless if you realize this or not.

Oh dear how mean of me.. so tell me.. outside of self serving ego stroking, what would I be depriving you of?

Possibly the opportunity to play raids at all, by starving them of the required playerbase.In any case, more raid releases, as the developers would need to waste time to rebalance all the existing raids for no good reason.

[Tyson.5160]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you.

See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything

That's your own conviction. Mine is that you

will

deprive me of something, regardless if you realize this or not.

Oh dear how mean of me.. so tell me.. outside of self serving ego stroking, what would I be depriving you of?

Possibly the opportunity to play raids at all, by starving them of the required playerbase.In any case, more raid releases, as the developers would need to waste time to rebalance all the existing raids for no good reason.

Could make the same argument that they should scrap wvw and pvp because it could make expac and living world faster to complete and ship.

[Feanor.2358]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you.

See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything, you can still have your difficult content, you can still have your legendary armor, you get all your baubles, and even more options, as no doubt you could also do some easy mode if the mood struck you, so, I don't need or want anything that you can't get to make me feel better. That is what separates our motives.

I want to include you people and make the game fun for everyone, you want deny and deprive people of the rewards you feel that should be reserved just to you.

As such there is nothing, petty or self serving about my motives, and you have openly admitted that you can't say the same.

This method seems to open the raid mode to more people and the counter argument seems to be people don’t want the raid to open up to others.

The counter-argument can be summarized to "it won't work". It's not that I don't want more people to raid. It's that I'm certain easy mode raids won't make that happen.

[Tyson.5160]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you.

See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything, you can still have your difficult content, you can still have your legendary armor, you get all your baubles, and even more options, as no doubt you could also do some easy mode if the mood struck you, so, I don't need or want anything that you can't get to make me feel better. That is what separates our motives.

I want to include you people and make the game fun for everyone, you want deny and deprive people of the rewards you feel that should be reserved just to you.

As such there is nothing, petty or self serving about my motives, and you have openly admitted that you can't say the same.

This method seems to open the raid mode to more people and the counter argument seems to be people don’t want the raid to open up to others.

The counter-argument can be summarized to "it won't work". It's not that I don't want more people to raid. It's that I'm certain easy mode raids

won't make that happen

.

That always the easy counter argument. You can say that about everything. The proof is in the pudding as they say.

[Feanor.2358]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you.

See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything

That's your own conviction. Mine is that you

will

deprive me of something, regardless if you realize this or not.

Oh dear how mean of me.. so tell me.. outside of self serving ego stroking, what would I be depriving you of?

Possibly the opportunity to play raids at all, by starving them of the required playerbase.In any case, more raid releases, as the developers would need to waste time to rebalance all the existing raids for no good reason.

Could make the same argument that they should scrap wvw and pvp because it could make expac and living world faster to complete and ship.

It's not the same. PvP and WvW are distinct content types on their own. Easy mode raid would be nothing of the sort - it will be yet another type of cooperative instanced content, overlapping its difficulty with some of the already existing ones.

[STIHL.2489]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you.

See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything

That's your own conviction. Mine is that you

will

deprive me of something, regardless if you realize this or not.

Oh dear how mean of me.. so tell me.. outside of self serving ego stroking, what would I be depriving you of?

Possibly the opportunity to play raids at all, by starving them of the required playerbase.

This tells me that you think everyone that currently does raids hates them, and only does them for the loot, how sad.

If that is really the case, then Raids really need to be reworked anyway.

[Feanor.2358]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you.

See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything, you can still have your difficult content, you can still have your legendary armor, you get all your baubles, and even more options, as no doubt you could also do some easy mode if the mood struck you, so, I don't need or want anything that you can't get to make me feel better. That is what separates our motives.

I want to include you people and make the game fun for everyone, you want deny and deprive people of the rewards you feel that should be reserved just to you.

As such there is nothing, petty or self serving about my motives, and you have openly admitted that you can't say the same.

This method seems to open the raid mode to more people and the counter argument seems to be people don’t want the raid to open up to others.

The counter-argument can be summarized to "it won't work". It's not that I don't want more people to raid. It's that I'm certain easy mode raids

won't make that happen

.

That always the easy counter argument. You can say that about everything. The proof is in the pudding as they say.

Yeah well, I've given the proof time and again. You can read it, it's in this thread.

[Feanor.2358]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you.

See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything

That's your own conviction. Mine is that you

will

deprive me of something, regardless if you realize this or not.

Oh dear how mean of me.. so tell me.. outside of self serving ego stroking, what would I be depriving you of?

Possibly the opportunity to play raids at all, by starving them of the required playerbase.

This tells me that you think everyone that currently does raids hates them, and only does them for the loot, how sad.

If that is really the case, then Raids really need to be reworked anyway.

Trying to twist my words yet again? No, I think nothing of the sort, I said it directly on multiple occasions and I've given reasons for it. That you ignore everything you don't like isn't my problem.

[Sephylon.4938]

Fix this first, get your pvp/wvw balancing act together, and to an extent pve (reaper, scrapper, all of rev), then, and only then should anet do easy mode raids. See you in 50+ years.

[Tyson.5160]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you.

See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything, you can still have your difficult content, you can still have your legendary armor, you get all your baubles, and even more options, as no doubt you could also do some easy mode if the mood struck you, so, I don't need or want anything that you can't get to make me feel better. That is what separates our motives.

I want to include you people and make the game fun for everyone, you want deny and deprive people of the rewards you feel that should be reserved just to you.

As such there is nothing, petty or self serving about my motives, and you have openly admitted that you can't say the same.

This method seems to open the raid mode to more people and the counter argument seems to be people don’t want the raid to open up to others.

The counter-argument can be summarized to "it won't work". It's not that I don't want more people to raid. It's that I'm certain easy mode raids

won't make that happen

.

That always the easy counter argument. You can say that about everything. The proof is in the pudding as they say.

Yeah well, I've given the proof time and again. You can read it, it's in this thread.

Really? How so?

The same kind of thing that happened in wow, is happening here. It’s inevitable...

[Tyson.5160]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you.

See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything, you can still have your difficult content, you can still have your legendary armor, you get all your baubles, and even more options, as no doubt you could also do some easy mode if the mood struck you, so, I don't need or want anything that you can't get to make me feel better. That is what separates our motives.

I want to include you people and make the game fun for everyone, you want deny and deprive people of the rewards you feel that should be reserved just to you.

As such there is nothing, petty or self serving about my motives, and you have openly admitted that you can't say the same.

This method seems to open the raid mode to more people and the counter argument seems to be people don’t want the raid to open up to others.

The counter-argument can be summarized to "it won't work". It's not that I don't want more people to raid. It's that I'm certain easy mode raids

won't make that happen

.

That always the easy counter argument. You can say that about everything. The proof is in the pudding as they say.

Yeah well, I've given the proof time and again. You can read it, it's in this thread.

Only real proof is if they do it.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"yann.1946" said:Why doesn't this seem realistic? A point of debate is always been this

eitherA: rewards would be to bad in which case easy mode would have absorbed some people who would/ are raiding and then die out leading a net loss in players-> BAD ending

B: Rewards would be to good which would result in people leaving the original which has nothing to do with them not enjoying it btw.-> BAD ending

C: Rewards are scaled well.-> Preferable outcome but very hard to achiev.

All three of your possibilities seem to be based on the idea that the maximum total pool consists of people already doing raids, that the only way it could achieve a sustainable population would be by cannibalizing a significant amount of the existing raid population. I agree that all three of those scenario would be failures, but I also posit:

\D: The rewards are good enough to attract non-raiders, but not so good that raiders are terribly impressed, leading to far more non-raiders joining up than raiders down-shifting, leaving existing raids with most of their players, while also keeping the easy raid populated.Good ending.

I don't think the rewards need to be scaled "perfectly," as I said above I think it would be fine for them to be objectively worse than "fair," so long as they are still comparable to other activities in the game. I don't believe that too many players will be drawn out of the existing raids, and if they are, then that's only a sign that too many of the existing raid players never wanted to be there in the first place, so it'd still be a net win for the game.

@"Talindra.4958" said:what is the purpose of your version of easy mode? to get li for legendary armor? or just to explore the story? because the former request is quite ridiculous and i wont be wasting anymore time to discuss further

All of the above. It's to get all the things people get out of raids, aside from the challenging "wipe until you make it" style of gameplay.

@Feanor.2358 said:That's fine, but you need to consider the bigger picture. You know yourself better than I know you, I'm certain. But it's not about you. It's about the average gamer. And even more - about many typical gamer profiles. The game is big and it targets many different groups of players. Do you know them all that well? I don't think you do. You're thinking about how to make the game appeal to you, personally. I'm thinking about what makes raiding in particular fun for everyone interested in it.

I believe that there are enough gamers who feel that way, especially in GW2's community, to support a game mode like this. I think you do too, which is why you're so desperate to prevent this mode from existing, because you worry that it will make it less convenient for you if these players have other options.

@Feanor.2358 said:But you're not asking for content "such as raids". You're asking for content such as fractals. The defining feature of the raids is their difficulty - precisely what people want to get rid of.

Again, you're back to your dishonest position, because you know full well that this is definitely not what we're asking for.

That's your own conviction. Mine is that you will deprive me of something, regardless if you realize this or not.

The only thing you have asserted this would deprive you of is that other players would be less likely to group up with you. Well you are not entitled to have those other players group up with you, and it's in no one's interests to hold those players hostage to your interests. Your desire to have those players playing what you want them to rather than what they'd prefer to do is an extremely selfish viewpoint, and not at all equivalent to the other side's in this discussion.

[STIHL.2489]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you.

See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything

That's your own conviction. Mine is that you

will

deprive me of something, regardless if you realize this or not.

Oh dear how mean of me.. so tell me.. outside of self serving ego stroking, what would I be depriving you of?

Possibly the opportunity to play raids at all, by starving them of the required playerbase.

This tells me that you think everyone that currently does raids hates them, and only does them for the loot, how sad.

If that is really the case, then Raids really need to be reworked anyway.

Trying to twist my words yet again? No, I think nothing of the sort, I said it directly on multiple occasions and I've given reasons for it. That you ignore everything you don't like isn't my problem.

I have twisted nothing, If people were happy doing raids you would not need to worry about there being no one to do raids with.

So either your fear it totally unfounded, or the Truth is, no one likes raids, and you know it, and just do it for the loot to to feel special and better then anyone else.

Which is it.. it's got to be one or the other.

[STIHL.2489]

@Ohoni.6057 said:The only thing you have asserted this would deprive you of is that other players would be less likely to group up with you.

Oh that's a good catch, but, then again, that's a personal reputation issue, and really not a game as a whole issue.