Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Astralporing.1957]

@thrag.9740 said:Yes but unlike fractals which constantly have to be reworked, for example, right now and how the instability system is being reworked (yet again), it isn't a model where countless dev hours are spent reinventing the same wheel.

Notice how fractals aren't being reworked because the easy versions are too easy. It's always about the t4 - either balancing them against each other, or some of the old ideas not working as good as originally intended.

The main difference here is that different fractals in the same fractal tier are supposed to be relatively similar in difficulty (and especially in time it takes to finish them). Raid bosses on the other hand were never supposed to be of equal difficulty - nor the difficulty was supposed to be the same when comparing whole wings.And, of course, raids aren't as old as the oldest fractals. It's entirely possible that in 2-3 years from now Anet will decide that they now can do some things better and will start to rework older raid wings as well, to get rid of some obsolete (by then) mechanics.

There's nothing in the tiered nature of the fractals that make them inherently more prone to reworking than raids are.

[thrag.9740]

Fractals in the same tier are suppose to be the same difficulty....in modern times. That is all also only because of a rework.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"thrag.9740" said:Fractals in the same tier are suppose to be the same difficulty....in modern times. That is all also only because of a rework.

I believe the point being made, which I agree with, is that it's a lot more work to finetune high-end content to all be equally difficult, to not be too easily exploited, while at the same time not being so punishing that it's no fun at all, than it is to take already tuned content and create a significantly easier version of it. You keep pointing to Fractals as a system that has taken way too long to "get right," but it's important to also keep in mind that the goals for "getting right" these Fractals is far different than the goals of any easy mode raid project. It's apples and androids.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

While I do not want to see an "easy" mode, I would not mind moving part of the extra mechanics and some 1-hit kill strikes to a Challenge Mode, and have both Normal and CM for raids. But nothing that you can call 'easy'.

But CM should have repeatable rewards.

Think Wing 4, but having its CM being repeatable like fractals 99 and 100.

[zealex.9410]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Walhalla.5473 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:It's very unlikely to happen howevere the more people ask for this the bigger chance you can change ANet's ideas about raid content :)

And the bigger the chance GW2 turns into a raid centric game.

Without gear treadmill it's impossible. Also, the raiding community here makes it even easier to stop GW2 becoming raid centric game.

The non-raiding community* FTFY

[STIHL.2489]

@zealex.9410 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Walhalla.5473 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:It's very unlikely to happen howevere the more people ask for this the bigger chance you can change ANet's ideas about raid content :)

And the bigger the chance GW2 turns into a raid centric game.

Without gear treadmill it's impossible. Also, the raiding community here makes it even easier to stop GW2 becoming raid centric game.

The non-raiding community* FTFY

I am sure the Non-raiding community is shrinking.. one way or another..

[Dravenultimate.6983]

I wanted to raid but it's just bs in my eyes because I keep ending up with high rank who have been here for so long no one wants to help you out they get pissed off or make you feel stupid for asking questions.

[Joxer.6024]

@Dravenultimate.6983 said:I wanted to raid but it's just bs in my eyes because I keep ending up with high rank who have been here for so long no one wants to help you out they get pissed off or make you feel stupid for asking questions.

If you on NA look me up. We are re forming our raid team and looking to fill with new people, so that this very thing doesn't happen to you! CHeers.

[Linken.6345]

And thats why you should join training runs were asking questions is ok not regular pug run were people want to get their kills quickly.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Walhalla.5473 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:It's very unlikely to happen howevere the more people ask for this the bigger chance you can change ANet's ideas about raid content :)

And the bigger the chance GW2 turns into a raid centric game.

Without gear treadmill it's impossible. Also, the raiding community here makes it even easier to stop GW2 becoming raid centric game.

The non-raiding community* FTFY

I am sure the Non-raiding community is shrinking.. one way or another..

Pretty sure whole game is shrinking at this point.

[Jora.5471]

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Ranger Lus.1465 said:from the point of view of a WvW player and university student, it is hard enough for me to find time to run with my guild, it would be nearly impossible for me to find time to raid (at least with the current system) I really want to get into it and have fun with more content other than WvW, I've even considered leaving WvW to start raiding. If there was a way for me to kinda dip my toes in the water before I dropped what I already do to start raiding, I would love it. I think that easier modes should have SIGNIFICANTLY less rewards, so that it is basically a trial to the real content. And it would make it easier for people to learn the mechanics so all the pretentious PvE players have less annoying pugs who don't know what they are doing (I am one of those pugs). I think there needs to be someway for more people to get into raiding, especially in a game that has less PvE content that other MMO's.

You don't learn how to deal with mechanics in an easier mode. You only learn habits that are potentional deathly in normal mode. Seasoned raiders will get even more annoying PUGs who think they know what they are doing but won't work in normal mode.

Most of the PvE content is non-raid content. Between the last two raids were 10 months. If you don't have enough PvE content now, having an easier raid mode won't change that while also delaying the content for people that raid right now.

False. I learned how to play fractals because there was an easier mode. If t4 was the only fractal, I would not be able to join because I would not have enough pristine fractals that the group requires. I couldn't join Arah explorable because of it has one difficulty mode. With different difficulty mode, I can trust most t4 pugs to not fail miserably. I also managed to do 99/100 cm without looking up guides because mechanics do not differ that much from the regular 99/100.

If raids get delayed then that is a good compromise. This will open more people up to raiding. Rather than a few minor snowflakes.

[Profebolter.4038]

And here we go again. /facepalm

Let us begin.

Fractals are not the same as raids. So please, do not compare that there is an equalized difficulty, when in reality it does not even come close to them.

Fractals consist of 5 people, when the incursions are 10 people.

What is the difference? Basically coordination and organization

It is difficult to coordinate and organize more with groups of PUGs in a raid, instead a fractal of 5 people is something already different, to be with less people is much easier to coordinate and organize.

-Mechanics and difficulty: as I said before the line that separates the difficulty between fractals and incursions is veryyyyyyyyyyyyyy long.

Why? Very easy. And one of them is the mechanics of the game. Fractals have almost no game mechanics except for one or two fractals. On the other hand, the incursions have quite a few mechanics in the encounter. Having more mechanics increases the difficulty of the game, but it is not only that. The mechanics of the raids, are paid and very hard to all of your team, if you fail a mechanic, you can pay dearly with an insta-kill of the user or the whole team. On the other hand, in fractals, no. At most a good amount of damage is received.

-KPs: This makes, that it becomes an obstacle to most people and this is the MAIN PROBLEM of the game.

Fractals do not ask for KPs. Why? Basically, because the difficulty is not high what the community considers, therefore they do not put it but instead, when they are asked to make the 99 CM and 100 CM of the fractals. It's already a different world, they ask for KPs. Reason? Because of the difficulty. The same thing happens with incursions. It does not matter if Glenna, Samarog, MO or even Gorseval (the easiest bosses in the game), even so they ask you for KPs.

Many of the users, consider that the KPs determines a lot the experience of the player himself in those bosses. Well, that's true. But the vast majority do not realize that the KPs determine the PROs and the Newbies. What leads them to put a barrier, forgiveness, an obstacle that must overcome.

-New users who get into raids are not going to be able, because there is an obstacle on top and that are the KPs. If new people can not access the bosses, how can they practice? Command? That will not work, and more with a commander who does not even experience, and nobody is going to do it. Because if nothing is gained, the commander will take all the blame for the users.

But beware, it's not just that. There is also a problem within the PvE community (only in the fields of fractals and incursions) and it is basically the bad behavior that there is currently, and you can not deny it. Why do you think that tens of thousands of users and even more, have left Guild Wars? I will tell you why;

• It is easily demotivated, basically by the obstacles that are recent in this game.
• They fear, because they have not been able to practice a single boss, and that is why they feel very insecure about them, and there has not been any user to guide them.

And the most important thing of all game, and that is not fulfilled is:

• They do not have fun, aspect that I have spoken in the previous points. Community, obstacles, challenging but stressful content, etc., etc.

The purpose of the game is basically to have fun. If a user does not have fun, it is that something is failing in the game, and if you do not do something to those groups of disgruntled users, they go to other games. And this is happening right now.

Users are asking for game tools, to facilitate access to raids (which may include, practices, knowledge of raids, knowledge of the mechanics of bosses, or seek a remedy to make the incursions somewhat quieter and not stressful etc, etc)

If they make content that is challenging, it is also fun and not stressful as many users are obfuscated or simply burned.

Not all of us have the same levels, each one goes at its own pace, one will have more hours of games, others will not. Others learn faster than others. There are people who adapt better to situations than others. There are people who are trained to command and others are not.

Let's think more about the new people who join the raids and not, the people who have become CMs with their group very easily.

Because they are two very different things and also deviate from the subject.

My sincere opinion

Greetings to all

[Talindra.4958]

i do not think a player has never ever done t4 is ready for raid. op mentioned that he has not done t4. i strongly suggest him to do t4 and also cm first. because raid mechanic wise is similar to 100cm. if he can manage 100cm, he is fully and truly ready for raid

[STIHL.2489]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Walhalla.5473 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:It's very unlikely to happen howevere the more people ask for this the bigger chance you can change ANet's ideas about raid content :)

And the bigger the chance GW2 turns into a raid centric game.

Without gear treadmill it's impossible. Also, the raiding community here makes it even easier to stop GW2 becoming raid centric game.

The non-raiding community* FTFY

I am sure the Non-raiding community is shrinking.. one way or another..

Pretty sure whole game is shrinking at this point.

Well just because the population is shrinking, does not mean individual game modes are shrinking. IE: 10% of the players could leave the game, yet, the number of players that do raids could remain the same or even grow, if the 10% that quit normally did not do that content. Given that only 5%-10% of the overall player base does raids, a vast majority of players could leave the game and the raid population could remain the same.

Just saying.

[Jora.5471]

@Talindra.4958 said:

@belognom.3685 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

All these you can learn in other instanced content the game features - the Fractals of the Mists. The actual mechanics you can't learn from a relaxed version, just like you can't learn how to play CM fractals from playing their normal-mode counterparts. The pressure is much different so you need to practice on the real thing.

I'm doing Fractals, rarely doing 4 tho but i have done them, mostly t3s. See it's not planning I juts go with pugs from lfg. Now how is that gonna help me to get a raid done? Fractals mech are different from what i see on raid bosses on tube videos. General dodging? Alright, I think I can manage that.I wanna see the content, simle and I can't. Tho my toon is geared in ascended (wvw and raid) and has a good arsenal of ascended wepons.

But the game offered no progression whatsoever. Than content is close to me and that isn't nice. I done everything on my part, that i had to do, how I can go do raids?

P.S. I would like to state this again. I'm not asking for one shot bosses. Maybe less damage, perhaps 80% -85% of current one, so pugs won't be walking away from raids.

I'm in biggest guild 2k members only 2-3 person i know do raiding, rest are avoiding it as plague. Simply none has time for preparation and planning and dedicated time to go into raids for 4 hours.

If you done all fractal achievements and cm. I say you are pretty much ready to start raid in current form not easy mode. They can't make raid easier than fractal. Try fractal 99 and fractal 100 normal mode. That two fractal is raid like but super easy mode.

I have done 99/100 CM and all T4 but, No one wants me in their raid because I have no experience in them.

I didn't need a T4 training group. I learnt the mechanics from the easier difficulties of Fractals. I didn't need a training group for 99/100 CM, I learnt most of the mechanics from the regular T4. However, Fractals are not raids.

[STIHL.2489]

@Blaeys.3102 said:For now, it's just a waiting game to see the tiny raid team at ANET come to their senses about this.

Or see the Raid team get canned and raids go the way of Dungeons.

That is also a possibility.

[Obtena.7952]

I don't think there should be an easy mode for current raids along side the standard mode ...

but I do think it would be nice if there was some kind of content that gives you access to 'practice', so when you do get a real raid team, you aren't a disaster and wasting people's time.

[Vinceman.4572]

@"Blaeys.3102" said:

RUN.

This way lies madness and a hundred (actually only about 6, but they will post 100+ times) angry raid subforum posters screaming for your head.

I haven't read the thread again but I would have reminded of very angry people leaving rants in this one. The majority of answers is neutral and still unemotional. Additionally a lot of raiders are ok with an easier mode if some requirements are met - for example no raid developers should work on easy modes at the expense of usual raid releases (release dates are way too long for "challenging" content) or a reasonable reward structure (if easy mode is too rewarding people will abandon the normal mode, if it will be adjusted towards the actual rewards people will play this mode once and never come back).Also, a training mode wouldn't really help to get into raiding. You practice at the regular bosses in training runs, guild initiatives and raid beginner guilds. The atmosphere is very friendly there if you try it.

In my opinion fractals aren't a good example btw. I just played a 2nd acc into T4 over the last two weeks. Players obviously do not learn onto their way from T1 to T3. While good players can carry worse ones easily in T1 & 2, it's a mess on T3. Players have level 80, should be a little bit experienced with their classes and also with the fractals. None of that is the case. I had to leave several groups due to their counterproductive game play and my unwillingness to fight bosses alone at 80-70% of the hp for several tries. Some groups even refused to take gentle advice, the best thing was a kick from a group where I wrote friendly how to conquer a specific phase. People lack a lot of frustration tolerance, leave very fast or try to convince the party to leave certain fracs and force them into lower levels although the lfg said otherwise. I've seen a lot but that was a new experience for me and I can tell you I will never do that again!In terms of raids it will be way worse because the actual raids are a lot harder than T3 or T4. The saltiness & toxicity will be huge but that's only my guess.

I have received a lot of hate - and at least one death threat (really :) ) over this topic. For some reason, there is a group of players that feel that expanding the experience to a wider range of players will somehow water down their hardcore experience, even if they aren't forced to play the lesser difficulty levels.

Still bringing that up? Holy moly, there was a random guy on the internet insulting you. As far as I remember you mentioned reddit, right? Those verbal derailments happen every day ingame and in forums etc. No need to worry about such childish behavior. I would suppose that this poster has already forgotten his nonsense so should you - for your own health. :)

[STIHL.2489]

@Vinceman.4572 said:Still bringing that up? Holy moly, there was a random guy on the internet insulting you. As far as I remember you mentioned reddit, right?

I got a few tells in game about raids as well from their proponents, So, it's not just one person that is willing to be hostile about this subject.

[Ohoni.6057]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@"Vinceman.4572" said:Still bringing that up? Holy moly, there was a random guy on the internet insulting you. As far as I remember you mentioned reddit, right?

I got a few tells in game about raids as well from their proponents, So, it's not just one person that is willing to be hostile about this subject.

Yeah, those are weird, when someone from the forums PMs you in games like "I hate your guts" or whatever. I guess they assume that's harder for ANet to act on than if they communicate through the forums? It's still weird.

[Feanor.2358]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@belognom.3685 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

All these you can learn in other instanced content the game features - the Fractals of the Mists. The actual mechanics you can't learn from a relaxed version, just like you can't learn how to play CM fractals from playing their normal-mode counterparts. The pressure is much different so you need to practice on the real thing.

I'm doing Fractals, rarely doing 4 tho but i have done them, mostly t3s. See it's not planning I juts go with pugs from lfg. Now how is that gonna help me to get a raid done? Fractals mech are different from what i see on raid bosses on tube videos. General dodging? Alright, I think I can manage that.I wanna see the content, simle and I can't. Tho my toon is geared in ascended (wvw and raid) and has a good arsenal of ascended wepons.

But the game offered no progression whatsoever. Than content is close to me and that isn't nice. I done everything on my part, that i had to do, how I can go do raids?

P.S. I would like to state this again. I'm not asking for one shot bosses. Maybe less damage, perhaps 80% -85% of current one, so pugs won't be walking away from raids.

I'm in biggest guild 2k members only 2-3 person i know do raiding, rest are avoiding it as plague. Simply none has time for preparation and planning and dedicated time to go into raids for 4 hours.

That's like asking "why are dungeons 5-man, I want to see the content solo". Because that's was the original idea. The game gives exactly the same requirement for anyone. If you're not doing the content, seek the problem in yourself, not the game.

You need to take into consideration that biggest gate for raiding is its "community" :)

Game puts requirement in terms of content mechanics and timer however it's the "community" that stricts the content beyond proportions.

The higher requirements the community imposes are a natural result of the higher difficulty to carry the specific content. The same players, when playing easier content, just don't care. You can see this in high-end fractal parties who proceed to play recommended fractals after clearing t4 and cms. Someone leaves because they're not interested in recs, we LFG and don't care what we get. We'll faceroll the content anyway. We could easily 4-man, or 3-man it, but why not help someone along? At the same time, we really care what we get prior to that. Because 100 CM isn't that easy to carry. That's all. Same applies for raids.

[Talindra.4958]

@runeblade.7514 said:

@Talindra.4958 said:

@belognom.3685 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

All these you can learn in other instanced content the game features - the Fractals of the Mists. The actual mechanics you can't learn from a relaxed version, just like you can't learn how to play CM fractals from playing their normal-mode counterparts. The pressure is much different so you need to practice on the real thing.

I'm doing Fractals, rarely doing 4 tho but i have done them, mostly t3s. See it's not planning I juts go with pugs from lfg. Now how is that gonna help me to get a raid done? Fractals mech are different from what i see on raid bosses on tube videos. General dodging? Alright, I think I can manage that.I wanna see the content, simle and I can't. Tho my toon is geared in ascended (wvw and raid) and has a good arsenal of ascended wepons.

But the game offered no progression whatsoever. Than content is close to me and that isn't nice. I done everything on my part, that i had to do, how I can go do raids?

P.S. I would like to state this again. I'm not asking for one shot bosses. Maybe less damage, perhaps 80% -85% of current one, so pugs won't be walking away from raids.

I'm in biggest guild 2k members only 2-3 person i know do raiding, rest are avoiding it as plague. Simply none has time for preparation and planning and dedicated time to go into raids for 4 hours.

If you done all fractal achievements and cm. I say you are pretty much ready to start raid in current form not easy mode. They can't make raid easier than fractal. Try fractal 99 and fractal 100 normal mode. That two fractal is raid like but super easy mode.

I have done 99/100 CM and all T4 but, No one wants me in their raid because I have no experience in them.

I didn't need a T4 training group. I learnt the mechanics from the easier difficulties of Fractals. I didn't need a training group for 99/100 CM, I learnt most of the mechanics from the regular T4. However, Fractals are not raids.

ofc fractal is not raid. but there are people who hasn't even want to touch t4 and cm and want to ask for raid to be easier so they can try it. if you are not prepared to try fractal cm, in raid you have no chance.that is what i mean. mentality counts. raid you have to sacrifies more time and effort. if they make raid easier which i have no objection to except that easy mode raid should not have any reward associated to it. because it is pointless to have easy mode raid that reward li or anything... i have friends who started couple of months ago. and they have now more than 100 li and even managed to do raid cm. i understand that for some people raid is difficult not because of skill but also time dedication and attitude too. but it is what it is. by all means make it easier. but no reward associated. otherwise it is pointless.. if easy mode raid just for practice, then by all means make it purely for training no reward to be given.we also know that players will ask for more, once it is made easier as requested. it will be more into it.. so dev need to consider as to what limit this is and their intend of raid is in this game.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:The higher requirements the community imposes are a natural result of the higher difficulty to carry the specific content. The same players, when playing easier content, just don't care. You can see this in high-end fractal parties who proceed to play recommended fractals after clearing t4 and cms. Someone leaves because they're not interested in recs, we LFG and don't care what we get. We'll faceroll the content anyway. We could easily 4-man, or 3-man it, but why not help someone along? At the same time, we really care what we get prior to that. Because 100 CM isn't that easy to carry. That's all. Same applies for raids.

Exactly. This is why an easy mode would really work better for a lot of players that don't want to deal with any of that.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:The higher requirements the community imposes are a natural result of the higher difficulty to carry the specific content. The same players, when playing easier content, just don't care. You can see this in high-end fractal parties who proceed to play recommended fractals after clearing t4 and cms. Someone leaves because they're not interested in recs, we LFG and don't care what we get. We'll faceroll the content anyway. We could easily 4-man, or 3-man it, but why not help someone along? At the same time, we really care what we get prior to that. Because 100 CM isn't that easy to carry. That's all. Same applies for raids.

Exactly. This is why an easy mode would really work better for a lot of players that don't want to deal with any of that.

At the expense of starving the real raids of the players they need. No thanks.

[Shadow Chaser.1948]

I have done 99/100 CM and all T4 but, No one wants me in their raid because I have no experience in them.

I didn't need a T4 training group. I learnt the mechanics from the easier difficulties of Fractals. I didn't need a training group for 99/100 CM, I learnt most of the mechanics from the regular T4. However, Fractals are not raids.

My situation is exactly opposite. I eat dhuum for breakfast but no one takes me for 100 CM coz no experience. LOL.