Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Deeyra.1476]

@runeblade.7514 said:

Raids are not hard for you because Raiders like you prefer to group with people that knows how to raid and, the only way to learn how to raid is to actually raid.

Raiders like me want to clear everything fast. And i am helping in a training guild and i know how that works.

Raid selling exist because it is difficult for a non-raider to find a group that accepts them.

High requirement somehow doesnt stop people from faking Li which is obvious but most people dont care. Then they get that easy carry and never learn the mehanics in detail.

You cant learn to raid overnight

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:Look, you don't have to agree with me, but you have to at least accept the things I am saying are the things I am saying. If you can't accept that what I'm asking for is what I'm asking for, then you have no hope of convincing me or anyone else of anything.

I don't think anyone can convince you. That's not the point of a debate - people very rarely change their stances anyway. The point is to clarify and extend my own position by getting it challenged from different view points. And perhaps sway those who don't yet have an established position themselves, by trying to explain mine.

But that's not what you're doing, because you aren't challenging my position

No no no no. That's not the intent at all. The intent is to find something challenging my own position in order to refine it.

@Ohoni.6057 said:As an example, you might not agree that me having the Gorseval I want would be good for the game, you might not even agree that the Gorseval I claim to want would actually satisfy me, fair enough, but it does not benefit your argument to claim ignorance that the Gorseval I claim to want is even the Gorseval I claim to want, I have been quite clear as to exactly what I am talking about, so it does not in any way reflect positively on yourself or your position that you don't seem to be capable of understanding.

I probably phrased myself poorly there. I didn't mean to challenge your own knowledge of what you think you want. I meant to say you won't get the results you imagine. I sometimes get carried away in explaining the why, leaving my original claim lacking in clarity.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:No no no no. That's not the intent at all. The intent is to find something challenging my own position in order to refine it.

but you ignore anything that challenges your position, to run off on unrelated tangents.

I probably phrased myself poorly there. I didn't mean to challenge your own knowledge of what you think you want. I meant to say you won't get the results you imagine. I sometimes get carried away in explaining the why, leaving my original claim lacking in clarity.

Ok, but based on the arguments you've made, I still disagree. I understand why you might believe that I don't know myself well enough to know what I want, but I would assert that I know myself better than you do, and that if I claim to want something, I'm usually right. I know for a fact that the experience you would enjoy about raiding, I would not enjoy, but that many similar experiences, at the difficulty I'm talking about, I have enjoyed, so I see no reason to believe that I would not enjoy the experience I described, and you have not convinced me otherwise.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Feanor.2358 said:The metaphor works for solitary experience. You'd be right if this only concerned the personal experience. However, it doesn't. Consider a Nohadon who would need to persuade 9 others to join him. A Nohadon who is no king and has no authority over them. There's the easy way, the direct way. Who would join him and why?The people interested in the same experience. And if there were not enough of them? Well, That's his problem. He shouldn't be demanding that other means of travel be disabled just so he could have unwilling travelling companions, because obviously those other people were never interested in sharing his journey in the first place.

@Feanor.2358 said:This is where the metaphor breaks for your case. And this is why I'm objecting to your suggestion - because it would flip the tables completely. It would give you an experience, but it will take mine away. And what I keep saying all the time, it will only give you an experience which you can already get in the game. But the one it will take away from me has no alternative.No, that's a very good metaphor and highlights the very issue we're talking about. The fact that you think holding people hostage to your fun is okay. You want companions to travel with you, but you couldn't give a kitten about whether they like it or not. You just want them to not have other options for your own selfish desires, and are perfectly willing to ruin their fun for that.That's not nice.

[yann.1946]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@yann.1946 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:You need to reread the hypothetical situation we were discussing. In it, Yann posited that if 100 players would play Content A (a stand-in for raids in their current form), yet Content B became available (presumably a stand-in for an easy mode), then Content A would suffer a net loss of 30% of its playerbase. Now you can argue that these players "already had something else to do available," but clearly for whatever reason they were not exercising that option until an easier raid became available. As soon as it did, 30% of them declared "hey, we've rather be doing that instead." And that's all well and good, it's how it should be. If people would prefer to be doing something else, that's not a reason to

not

provide that option.

You, however, are not making hypothetical requests for a hypothetical game played by hypothetical players. It's a real game and the issues discussed are real. And that is a real reason why your suggestions are bad.

But again, even in the real game, it reaches the same results. If the availability of an easy mode would put the viability of the harder mode at risk, then the harder mode doesn't deserve to survive. Its survival should not come at the expense of those X amount of players who would abandon it instead being stuck with a mode that apparently they would abandon at the earliest opportunity.

Yann is basically presenting one possible scenario, but there are really two.

In Yann's, enough people would rather not be doing harder raids that if an easier option presented itself, they would jump ship, and the total current population is already so small that it could not survive such an exodus. In this scenario

barely

enough people participate in raids as it is, and apparently not enough of them actually

enjoy

doing it to fully justify the mode in the first place.

The alternate scenario (given the same gameplay changes) is that X amount of players would leave for the new mode, but that the raids were still healthy enough to absorb such a loss, and continue unharmed. I would think that this would be the scenario raiders would

want

to believe, but in either case, the situation works out for the best, namely that players would be doing the thing they preferred doing, rather being trapped between two bad options.

I actually presented a third option in which the easy mode would absorb people from the hard mode and then eventually die out leading to a net loss

That doesn't seem realistic, unless they really flub the implementation of the easy mode in some way.

Why doesn't this seem realistic? A point of debate is always been this

eitherA: rewards would be to bad in which case easy mode would have absorbed some people who would/ are raiding and then die out leading a net loss in players-> BAD ending

B: Rewards would be to good which would result in people leaving the original which has nothing to do with them not enjoying it btw.-> BAD ending

C: Rewards are scaled well.-> Preferable outcome but very hard to achiev.

Conclusion: What worth is their to take a risk which could do tremendous harm while possibly giving very little gain.

The little gain is because of the question how much of the total population actually cares about raiding and can't do it at the present time?

[Talindra.4958]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Talindra.4958" said:the thing is. fractal require skills. raid require more skills. if the person cant manage fractal, raid is not for him.

I think you're completely missing the point. People

know

that "raids are not for them."

That is the

entire reason

that an easy mode is being discussed, because players fully recognize that "raids are not for them," but they would like a

version

of the raid that

is

for them, one that involves all the features of raiding

except

for the barriers of entry that make "raids not be for them."

Until you can understand that this is what we're discussing then you can't meaningfully contribute to the discussion at all, all you could do is talk

past

everyone else.

Ohoni, before the post was merged, the post that i replied to, the op requested raid to be easy mode so he can learn raid mechanic in simpler form. He also said that he hasnt tried t4 or cm. in your argument, you wanted raid to be in easy mode for people who are not interested in doing raids. then we are talking about raid in easy mode for different reasons. whatever i said will not be relevant to your concern because i have no comment on request for raid for easy mode just for exploration.what is the purpose of your version of easy mode? to get li for legendary armor? or just to explore the story? because the former request is quite ridiculous and i wont be wasting anymore time to discuss furtherand i didn't read/follow the entire long discussion here. the post before it was merged discuss about progression raids as far as i understand.just so we know if they do make a different version (easier) raid.. eg current SAB infantile mode it doesn't give any reward upon completion, then normal mode give normal chest, and tribulation mode that gives better reward.. Is that what player will be happy with? easy raid mode that don't give any reward, then normal mode raid give current reward, and hard mode that give even better reward. repeatable CM food and utility chests.. :open_mouth: mmmmm

[Feanor.2358]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:The metaphor works for solitary experience. You'd be right if this only concerned the personal experience. However, it doesn't. Consider a Nohadon who would need to persuade 9 others to join him. A Nohadon who is no king and has no authority over them. There's the easy way, the direct way. Who would join him and why?The people interested in the same experience. And if there were not enough of them? Well, That's his problem. He shouldn't be demanding that other means of travel be disabled just so he could have unwilling travelling companions, because obviously those other people were never interested in sharing his journey in the first place.

Black-or-white again. Like I said, decision-making isn't like that, there are a lot of factors, and you'll be influencing them. So what you're describing here is nothing but an utopia, it won't work in a real community playing a real game.

@Feanor.2358 said:This is where the metaphor breaks for your case. And this is why I'm objecting to your suggestion - because it would flip the tables completely. It would give

you

an experience, but it will take mine away. And what I keep saying all the time, it will only give you an experience

which you can already get in the game

. But the one it will take away from me has no alternative.No, that's a very good metaphor and highlights the very issue we're talking about. The fact that you think holding people hostage to your fun is okay. You want companions to travel with you, but you couldn't give a kitten about whether they like it or not. You just want them to not have other options for your own selfish desires, and are perfectly willing to ruin their fun for that.That's not nice.

What is not nice is strawmaning what I said to such extreme levels. Where exactly did I say I don't care? In fact, I said pretty much the opposite - that the players who raid actually like it and have fun raiding, implying I would very much like them to keep doing it. I won't stand twisting my words like that.

Once again, it's not a problem of liking something or not. It's a problem of forcing a new Nash equilibrium. You're ignoring the effects of the community, but you can't do that and keep your argument valid, simply because this isn't solo content.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:Ok, but based on the arguments you've made, I still disagree. I understand why you might believe that I don't know myself well enough to know what I want, but I would assert that I know myself better than you do, and that if I claim to want something, I'm usually right. I know for a fact that the experience you would enjoy about raiding, I would not enjoy, but that many similar experiences, at the difficulty I'm talking about, I have enjoyed, so I see no reason to believe that I would not enjoy the experience I described, and you have not convinced me otherwise.

That's fine, but you need to consider the bigger picture. You know yourself better than I know you, I'm certain. But it's not about you. It's about the average gamer. And even more - about many typical gamer profiles. The game is big and it targets many different groups of players. Do you know them all that well? I don't think you do. You're thinking about how to make the game appeal to you, personally. I'm thinking about what makes raiding in particular fun for everyone interested in it.

[Jora.5471]

@Deeyra.1476 said:

@runeblade.7514 said:

Raids are not hard for you because Raiders like you prefer to group with people that knows how to raid and, the only way to learn how to raid is to actually raid.

Raiders like me want to clear everything fast.

Correct, the only way to clear everything fast is to not bring non raiders into your group.

Raid selling exist because it is difficult for a non-raider to find a group that accepts them.

High requirement somehow doesnt stop people from faking Li which is obvious but most people dont care. Then they get that easy carry and never learn the mehanics in detail.

Of course they have to. Raid selling cost a lot of money and there are almost no groups that would accept them.

You cant learn to raid overnight

With easy mode, newer raiders would not have to learn how to raid overnight. They would stay in easy mode until they learned the mechanics enough for normal mode.

[Jora.5471]

@Assic.2746 said:

@Eramonster.2718 said:Tldr. But for those who had problem getting into raids had already solved it. The ongoing are just the same players from what I noticed.

Completing easy mode gives you nothing. People still won't take you into their group because you have no actual experience with the

real

boss.

I disagree. If fractals did not have different difficulty. I would never be able to play T4. People would demand that I have 250 pristine fractal reliec and 250 fractal pages before I could join. I was able to do 99/100 cm because the mechanics was almost the same. Because of different difficulty, I am comfortable enough with most pugs in T4 to not fail much. I do not need a pristine fractal relic check for everyone that joined.

If easy mode did not prepared players for normal mode, then ANet did not design it well. Simple as that.

[belognom.3685]

@Deeyra.1476 said:

@runeblade.7514 said:

Raids are not hard for you because Raiders like you prefer to group with people that knows how to raid and, the only way to learn how to raid is to actually raid.

Raiders like me want to clear everything fast. And i am helping in a training guild and i know how that works.

Raid selling exist because it is difficult for a non-raider to find a group that accepts them.

High requirement somehow doesnt stop people from faking Li which is obvious but most people dont care. Then they get that easy carry and never learn the mehanics in detail.

You cant learn to raid overnight

Please do sent me an invite to this raid training guild that actually does raid training. This is the very first mmo im having difficulties to get to see and clear content. And I'm sure cus there are no progression whatsoever. People that ask for easy mod hardly care of those achieves, mastery points etc. Most of them wanna play the freakin game. And they see only this way, Easy and efficient. Cut reward, take achives out, keep masteries to full versions only. Make it drop blue gear. I don'y care personally. But please do get me a way to progress and clear end-game content.

P.S I alredy made 2 legendary. Currently working on 3 and my asura is cute af. :)) The only end game i have no idea of is raids.

[Deeyra.1476]

@runeblade.7514 said:

With easy mode, newer raiders would not have to learn how to raid overnight. They would stay in easy mode until they learned the mechanics enough for normal mode.

That's like doing shattered observatory and you know the mehanics there and you would think ''oh great now i can do the CM'' . You would go in and thought that the hell is going on here. Imagine Samarog. You can kill it now fairly easy as its an easy fight. Now go to the CM and expect to dothe same thing. thats how i imagine this easy /normal mode would be

[Jora.5471]

@Deeyra.1476 said:

@runeblade.7514 said:

With easy mode, newer raiders would not have to learn how to raid overnight. They would stay in easy mode until they learned the mechanics enough for normal mode.

That's like doing shattered observatory and you know the mehanics there and you would think ''oh great now i can do the CM'' . You would go in and thought that the hell is going on here. Imagine Samarog. You can kill it now fairly easy as its an easy fight. Now go to the CM and expect to dothe same thing. thats how i imagine this easy /normal mode would be

I did do 100 cm after mastering shattered observatory. While it is more difficult, I did not need a training group to learn what to do.

However, if easy mode did not prepare new players for normal mode then ANet did not design easy mode well. Simple as that.

[STIHL.2489]

@Ohoni.6057 said:Journey before destination, but the destination is still of interest. And don't forget that you are no less focused on the destination than I am, you are the one insisting that nobody can reach Urithiru except on foot.

Anyone that does not grasp that the destination is why anyone takes a journey simply is not someone that can be reasoned with as they do not even understand what they are talking about. Destination is the motive behind the Journey, the Why. Without that, there is just directionless mulling about.

Which is what is now happening with GW2, Anet took away the destinations, they removed the end game from their casual player base, and while some do enjoy mulling, everyone that wants a journey, will move on.

[STIHL.2489]

@"yann.1946" said:B: Rewards would be to good which would result in people leaving the original which has nothing to do with them not enjoying it btw.-> BAD ending

This is false. As I enjoyed the Story Mode for Dungeons when I first started do them, and while the rewards were bad (no tokens), I still ran them with my guild mates, one to help them get their story done, and two because I liked the story itself.

See right now, all these discussions by the raid proponents boil down to loot, and truth be told, If players only care about loot, then the content does not matter. We could have them stand in a room and press a button, and as long as they feel they can get some kind of special loot that they feel others can't get, they will be happy. Everything else is irrelevant to them.

That is really what is going on here, and why people cry that "easy mode" raids will kill the raids, because it really is all about the loot. Not the content, not the challenge. Just the Loot.

Kinda sad really, but anyone that didn't see this coming was oblivious.

Honestly, if the Easy Mode gave 1/3 the material reward (LI's and stuff like that), anyone that could do Normal would be foolish to do Easy. Also just change the colors of the other rewards like Weapons, Mini's and the like, like SAB for example, so players that need it for their ego, can still get their " Look at me " rewards.

[Rhiannon.1726]

@"STIHL.2489" said:...Anet took away the destinations, they removed the end game from their casual player base ...

What "end game" was removed?

[Vinceman.4572]

@runeblade.7514 said:I did do 100 cm after mastering shattered observatory. While it is more difficult, I did not need a training group to learn what to do.

What's so different in using a training group compared to an easy mode? If you are that skilled and getting 100CM down easily on a routine you'll have no problems with most raid encounters because they are easier.The comparison between a fractal cm and t4 against normal mode raids vs. easy mode is wrong btw. You have to line it up between raid normal mode and raid cm.

However, if easy mode did not prepare new players for normal mode then ANet did not design easy mode well. Simple as that.

I honestly doubt that T1-T3 prepared you for T4. I played my 2nd acc into T4 over the last two weeks and in no way people are getting ready for the T4 versions via this route. Most of them will stay forever in the lower tiers because they are not able to manage the simple things with their classes or they will get into T4 and still be clueless about all the stuff going on there. Sad but unfortunately true. Learning to be good in fractals and understanding important things + strategy starts at T4 - not earlier. Before you see some mechanics and know the area but nothing else. If you really want to be good beyond T4 you have to have contact to top players, practice a lot, study guides and watch others playing. Translated to raids: Everything is there too! You have the guides, videos, enough top players were offering their help (for example qT discord in the past and others), raid training intiatives and guilds.

All in all it seems to me that you just want to kill bosses with experienced people because you feel entitled to do so for whateverest reasons. Sorry to say but you are not better than everyone else when he/she started to train bosses. One after the other. And the best way for that is to join a guild/community. If you are that good you'll have no problem to play yourself up to the weekly clear groups and you can easily leave training guild behind after a few weeks.One more thing: Raiding doesn't work via lfg like fractals do and it was never intended to function like that. They installed it because raid squads flooded the basic lfg.

@"STIHL.2489" said:Also just change the colors of the other rewards like Weapons, Mini's and the like, like SAB for example, so players that need it for their ego, can still get their " Look at me " rewards.

And then an Ohoni is coming around the corner... "This won't end well"

[zealex.9410]

@Sephylon.4938 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Assic.2746 said:Completing easy mode gives you nothing. People still won't take you into their group because you have no actual experience with the

real

boss.

Easy mode, done right, is its

own

reward. It's not

about

getting sempai to notice us. We'd already have the mode we wanted to play in.

You actually trust anet to do it right?What exactly is your definition of an easy mode done right?

Giving u all things necessary for legendary armor.

[yann.1946]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@"yann.1946" said:B: Rewards would be to good which would result in people leaving the original which has nothing to do with them not enjoying it btw.-> BAD ending

This is false. As I enjoyed the Story Mode for Dungeons when I first started do them, and while the rewards were bad (no tokens), I still ran them with my guild mates, one to help them get their story done, and two because I liked the story itself.

See right now, all these discussions by the raid proponents boil down to loot, and truth be told, If players only care about loot, then the content does not matter. We could have them stand in a room and press a button, and as long as they feel they can get some kind of special loot that they feel others can't get, they will be happy. Everything else is irrelevant to them.

That is really what is going on here, and why people cry that "easy mode" raids will kill the raids, because it really is all about the loot. Not the content, not the challenge.

Just the Loot

.

Kinda sad really, but anyone that didn't see this coming was oblivious.

Honestly, if the Easy Mode gave 1/3 the material reward (LI's and stuff like that), anyone that could do Normal would be foolish to do Easy. Also just change the colors of the other rewards like Weapons, Mini's and the like, like SAB for example, so players that need it for their ego, can still get their "

Look at me

" rewards.

I'm talking about population tendencys not personal tendencys.

Their are still people playing dungeons. Doesn't mean they have a healthy population.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Feanor.2358 said:What is not nice is strawmaning what I said to such extreme levels. Where exactly did I say I don't care? In fact, I said pretty much the opposite - that the players who raid actually like it and have fun raiding, implying I would very much like them to keep doing it. I won't stand twisting my words like that.If they like it and have fun raiding, then, unless Anet really flubs reward levels (making easy mode more rewarding than current one), they'd continue to do it and you have nothing to worry about. If they stop doing the current mode and move to the easy one, it would just mean they didn't have as much fun as you assumed.In which case we're back to my previous argument - demanding they don't have other options just so you can have fun is not nice, and it definitely ignores what's good for those players. You'd be having fun at the expense of others.

[Feanor.2358]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:What is not nice is strawmaning what I said to such extreme levels. Where exactly did I say I don't care? In fact, I said pretty much the opposite - that the players who raid

actually like it and have fun raiding

, implying I would very much like them to keep doing it. I won't stand twisting my words like that.If they like it and have fun raiding, then, unless Anet really flubs reward levels (making easy mode more rewarding than current one), they'd continue to do it and you have nothing to worry about. If they stop doing the current mode and move to the easy one, it would just mean they didn't have as much fun as you assumed.In which case we're back to my previous argument - demanding they don't have other options just so

you

can have fun is not nice, and it definitely ignores what's good for those players. You'd be having fun at the expense of others.

See above, I already explained. Either easy mode will be pointless or it will suck away the playerbase. And it's not because the playerbase doesn't like raiding, they'll be forced to by increased lfg times.

[Tyson.5160]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:What is not nice is strawmaning what I said to such extreme levels. Where exactly did I say I don't care? In fact, I said pretty much the opposite - that the players who raid

actually like it and have fun raiding

, implying I would very much like them to keep doing it. I won't stand twisting my words like that.If they like it and have fun raiding, then, unless Anet really flubs reward levels (making easy mode more rewarding than current one), they'd continue to do it and you have nothing to worry about. If they stop doing the current mode and move to the easy one, it would just mean they didn't have as much fun as you assumed.In which case we're back to my previous argument - demanding they don't have other options just so

you

can have fun is not nice, and it definitely ignores what's good for those players. You'd be having fun at the expense of others.

See above, I already explained. Either easy mode will be pointless or it will suck away the playerbase. And it's not because the playerbase doesn't like raiding, they'll be forced to by increased lfg times.

I thought most raiders have static guild groups, these seems like it will only effect Pugs, which if I recall, Anet apparently didn’t design raiding for.

[Jora.5471]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@"runeblade.7514" said:I did do 100 cm after mastering shattered observatory. While it is more difficult, I did not need a training group to learn what to do.

What's so different in using a training group compared to an easy mode? If you are that skilled and getting 100CM down easily on a routine you'll have no problems with most raid encounters because they are easier.The comparison between a fractal cm and t4 against normal mode raids vs. easy mode is wrong btw. You have to line it up between raid normal mode and raid cm.

In a training group, I have to wait for a guild to actually form one, and I might not make it around their schedule. Easy mode allows me to find a pug group and do the content. Every training raid guild I join does not schedule around me. Even there is a training raid, I don't have the class required or it falls apart. Even if I do get the ability to join a raid. I would forget most mechanics because it has been months or years since I did that last raid boss.

I disagree with "If you are that skilled and getting 100CM down easily on a routine you'll have no problems with most raid encounters because they are easier. " Amala does not teach me Dhuum mechanics. Virastira does not teach me Gorseval or whatever raid bosses there are.

I agree with your statement that " The comparison between a fractal cm and t4 against normal mode raids vs. easy mode is wrong btw. You have to line it up between raid normal mode and raid cm." I prefer ANet to balance easy mode vs. normal mode like T1 -> T2 ->T3 ->T4 which I did put in my argument.

However, if easy mode did not prepare new players for normal mode then ANet did not design easy mode well. Simple as that.

I honestly doubt that T1-T3 prepared you for T4. I played my 2nd acc into T4 over the last two weeks and in no way people are getting ready for the T4 versions via this route. Most of them will stay forever in the lower tiers because they are not able to manage the simple things with their classes or they will get into T4 and still be clueless about all the stuff going on there. Sad but unfortunately true. Learning to be good in fractals and understanding important things + strategy starts at T4 - not earlier. Before you see some mechanics and know the area but nothing else. If you really want to be good beyond T4 you have to have contact to top players, practice a lot, study guides and watch others playing. Translated to raids: Everything is there too! You have the guides, videos, enough top players were offering their help (for example qT discord in the past and others), raid training intiatives and guilds.

I learned the mechanics through T1-T3 because they are not punishing. T1 allowed me to discover what mechanics there are. But as I progress through the tiers, I start to learn which mechanics are becoming more punishing. If the people at the lower tiers still do not have the ability to jump up a tier, then that is fine. The content is there for them. My T4 run is not affected at all.

But if lower tiers did not exist. I would not be able to join a T4 run because they would demand that I get 250 Pristine Fractals/250 Fractal pages. For the reasons you brought up, "the people at lower tier aren't good enough for t4."

All in all it seems to me that you just want to kill bosses with experienced people because you feel entitled to do so for whateverest reasons. Sorry to say but you are not better than everyone else when he/she started to train bosses. One after the other. And the best way for that is to join a guild/community. If you are that good you'll have no problem to play yourself up to the weekly clear groups and you can easily leave training guild behind after a few weeks.One more thing: Raiding doesn't work via lfg like fractals do and it was never intended to function like that. They installed it because raid squads flooded the basic lfg.

Nice Strawman. Can you explain why you think that way? Everything I wrote shouldn't let you think that "I would just want to kill bosses with experienced people because you feel entitled to do so for whateverest reasons."

Easy mode should be the opposite of that, I'll play with inexperienced players that I should be able to complete the content with. I don't expect experienced players to play easy mode with me. I don't expect to be better than everyone else. I expect to learn through easy mode and then be more comfortable for normal mode just how I was with Fractals.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:What is not nice is strawmaning what I said to such extreme levels. Where exactly did I say I don't care? In fact, I said pretty much the opposite - that the players who raid

actually like it and have fun raiding

, implying I would very much like them to keep doing it. I won't stand twisting my words like that.If they like it and have fun raiding, then, unless Anet really flubs reward levels (making easy mode more rewarding than current one), they'd continue to do it and you have nothing to worry about. If they stop doing the current mode and move to the easy one, it would just mean they didn't have as much fun as you assumed.In which case we're back to my previous argument - demanding they don't have other options just so

you

can have fun is not nice, and it definitely ignores what's good for those players. You'd be having fun at the expense of others.

See above, I already explained. Either easy mode will be pointless or it will suck away the playerbase. And it's not because the playerbase doesn't like raiding, they'll be forced to by increased lfg times.If the LFG times for True Raider Groups will be long enough to cause players to abandon that mode, it will just mean there was not enough interest in it in the first place.

In short: if the Raids to survive need players that aren't really interested in that mode, then the mode should not have been introduced in the first place.

[Jora.5471]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:Well here is a challenge for you. Give me a reason why you want raids to be as they are, that is not purely self serving, and centered around needing to find self validation in game by acquiring some bauble for you to parade about that the filthy masses should not be allowed to have as well. I say this because you are also adamantly against there being any other PvE path to obtain Legendary Armor.

I'll wait.

Ultimately all reasons here are self-serving. I want the raids to remain as they are because changing them the way you want would wreck them and I'll be unable to keep enjoying them. Because it is about

my

fun, my reasoning is, of course, partially selfish.

Oh good.. well thanks for clearing this up. Petty, self serving, shallow and you can't have fun unless you are denying others their fun.

Well, suddenly I don't care if your fun gets "hurt"

I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you. Should I assume they're true? I'm going to go with "no", because that would make you a hypocrite and I don't want to assume that.

The difference between the two:

• One has fun by denying other having fun- Don't add easy mode so that non-experience raiders would not be able to play raids.
• One has fun by having the ability of having fun- add easy mode so non-experience raiders can play raids at their level.