Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

nia.4725 · June 4, 2018

@Ohoni.6057 said:
@nia.4725 said:No, you didn't understand- Maybe you need this quote.
As a reward for defeating the raid bosses, we realized early on that we would need something that reflects your success to other players. Enter legendary armor—the ultimate pinnacle of armor in all of Tyria.
Maybe I was the one who should have made it simpler.

Yes, I understand how marketing works, that does not mean that things cannot change in the future. As Maddoctor pointed out, when the game launched, explorable dungeons were intended to be as hard as it gets in the game, but later they decided to add even harder content, and some of you seem to like that.

We were not talking about this. Go back to the topic.

nia.4725 · June 4, 2018

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:lol i need to look at this envoy armor again (i thought it was a bit ugly tbh), people are SO VERY VERY DESPERATE to keep it all for themselves/get it through some other content, it must be a glorious gamechanger!

Oh yes please, I absolutely want to keep for myself all the Envoys I have NOT crafted with my 900li! ALL FOR ME MWHAHAHA I'M SO EVIL AND SELFISH

STIHL.2489 · June 4, 2018

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:
@"STIHL.2489" said:
The game delivered exactly what is promised.. then this small vocal group started to raise a ruckus that this game needed to be like other MMO's with more challenge, as opposed to just going off and playing those other MMO's.. they ruined this one.

Selective memory, or just making assumptions?

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-09-27-guild-wars-2-preview?page=3

Eurogamer: The hardest content in the game, then, is the five-man dungeons?
Colin Johanson: Correct. There are two versions of every dungeon: a story mode that you do first... that's pick-up group friendly. It's much easier and fun content that has a lot of cinematics in and tells a fun story. And when you finish the story dungeon, you unlock an explorable dungeon. And the explorable dungeon tells the story of what happens after you completed the story dungeon. That is the most difficult content in our game, our explorable dungeons. They're very, very hard. And they're actually really unique when you look at traditional MMO raids.
Colin Johanson: Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base. The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It's all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game: armour pieces, potentially different potions - a lot of that is still up in the air and we'll finalise a lot of those reward systems as we get closer to release. And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons - the raids.

ANet did intend to provide content which would be equivalent to raids.

No they didn't.

Just like you misunderstood the prices for mount skins, you are misrepresenting this.

First, they were at one time the hardest content in the game. So, that was 100% provided and legit.

And he said is that they are "really unique when you look at traditional Raids" at no point did he mention they were supposed to be as difficult as Raids, or be Raid Like Content, nor did he say they were going to be GW2's equal to raids in other games.

They also intended to put skins as rewards in that content. However, feel free to provide quotes wherein ANet stated something like, "We are never going to include any harder PvE content that will be as hard as raids in other games."

~~They also never said they were going to put in content that would rival Raids in other games. Feel free to find that one for me. ~~ Never mind, I found that they had dreams of their Dungeons being like Raids in other games, and truth be told, after failing with their Dungeons.. they should have stopped trying. It has not profited the game.

You're fixating on the word "raids" when what actually matters is that ANet always intended to court those who prefer harder instanced-PvE content. Their first iteration failed to deliver; their second was a partial success, and the third is raids.

Which is an even bigger failure.

Ohoni.6057 · June 4, 2018

@"Teamkiller.4315" said:Specifically we were discussing the merits of a proposal to add easier raids that were also a brand new set of raids.

Yes, and again, for that proposal to be relevant to this thread, it would need to be within the context of resolving the issues of players who were left unsatisfied by the current raids. Most of your "positives" involved it "not being so bad a change for those who currently were already fine," rather than ways that it would actually improve anything for those it would need to benefit.

You don't consider anything I listed a positive, but that''s simply because you are advocating for yourself and only yourself. You're not advocating for anyone else, really.

Inaccurate.

Whether or not it helps raiders is as you probably already know, not the point of contention. So why did you move the goalposts there?

My goalposts have always been consistent. They are not perhaps where you want them to be, but

@nia.4725 said:
@Ohoni.6057 said:
@nia.4725 said:No, you didn't understand- Maybe you need this quote.
As a reward for defeating the raid bosses, we realized early on that we would need something that reflects your success to other players. Enter legendary armor—the ultimate pinnacle of armor in all of Tyria.
Maybe I was the one who should have made it simpler.

Yes, I understand how marketing works, that does not mean that things cannot change in the future. As Maddoctor pointed out, when the game launched, explorable dungeons were intended to be as hard as it gets in the game, but later they decided to add even harder content, and some of you seem to like that.

We were not talking about this. Go back to the topic.

I agree that we weren't talking about this, but then you started talking about it, and I responded to your comment. If you didn't want to be talking about it, then why raise the issue in the first place?

nia.4725 · June 4, 2018

@Ohoni.6057 said:
@"Teamkiller.4315" said:Specifically we were discussing the merits of a proposal to add easier raids that were also a brand new set of raids.

Yes, and

again,

for that proposal to be relevant to

this

thread, it would need to be

within the context of

resolving the issues of players who were left unsatisfied by the current raids. Most of your "positives" involved it "not being so bad a change for those who currently were already fine," rather than ways that it would actually improve anything for those it would need to benefit.

You don't consider anything I listed a positive, but that''s simply because you are advocating for yourself and only yourself. You're not advocating for anyone else, really.

Inaccurate.

Whether or not it helps raiders is as you probably already know, not the point of contention. So why did you move the goalposts there?

My goalposts have always been consistent. They are not perhaps where you

want

them to be, but

@nia.4725 said:
@Ohoni.6057 said:
@nia.4725 said:No, you didn't understand- Maybe you need this quote.
As a reward for defeating the raid bosses, we realized early on that we would need something that reflects your success to other players. Enter legendary armor—the ultimate pinnacle of armor in all of Tyria.
Maybe I was the one who should have made it simpler.

Yes, I understand how marketing works, that does not mean that things cannot change in the future. As Maddoctor pointed out, when the game launched, explorable dungeons were intended to be as hard as it gets in the game, but later they decided to add even harder content, and some of you seem to like that.

We were not talking about this. Go back to the topic.

I agree that we weren't talking about this, but then you started talking about it, and I responded to your comment. If you didn't want to be talking about it, then why raise the issue in the first place?

? I did not.

We were discussing how Anet came to the decision of giving the Envoy as a reward from raids. I said that they didn't give the Envoy arbitrarily, they actually decided that was the reward they wanted to give for such a difficult content, as my quote shows. Nothing else.

Ohoni.6057 · June 4, 2018

@"nia.4725" said:We were discussing how Anet came to the decision of giving the Envoy as a reward from raids.

You said "As a reward for defeating the raid bosses, we realized early on that we would need something that reflects your success to other players. Enter legendary armor—the ultimate pinnacle of armor in all of Tyria." That's marketing spin, nothing more. It's hyping people up about the introduction of Legendary armor.

Teamkiller.4315 · June 4, 2018

@Ohoni.6057 said:
@"Teamkiller.4315" said:Specifically we were discussing the merits of a proposal to add easier raids that were also a brand new set of raids.

Yes, and

again,

for that proposal to be relevant to

this

thread, it would need to be

within the context of

resolving the issues of players who were left unsatisfied by the current raids.

Most of your "positives" involved it "not being so bad a change for those who currently were already fine," rather than ways that it would actually improve anything for those it would need to benefit.

You fabricated that rule because you were being accused of moving the goalposts. And you know something? It addresses it anyways. You're advocating for only yourself and you know it.

My goalposts have always been consistent. They are not perhaps where you want them to be, but

...You don't seem to know what moving the goalposts means as a logical fallacy.

Ohoni.6057 · June 5, 2018

@Teamkiller.4315 said:
@Ohoni.6057 said:
@Teamkiller.4315 said:Specifically we were discussing the merits of a proposal to add easier raids that were also a brand new set of raids.

Yes, and

again,

for that proposal to be relevant to

this

thread, it would need to be

within the context of

resolving the issues of players who were left unsatisfied by the current raids.

Most of your "positives" involved it "not being so bad a change for those who currently were already fine," rather than ways that it would actually improve anything for those it would need to benefit.

You fabricated that rule because you were being accused of moving the goalposts. And you know something? It addresses it anyways. You're advocating for only yourself and you know it.

My goalposts have always been consistent. They are not perhaps where you
want
them to be, but

...You don't seem to know what moving the goalposts means as a logical fallacy.

I think you've made perfectly clear that you don't, nothing more.

mortrialus.3062 · June 5, 2018

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@vesica tempestas.1563 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@vesica tempestas.1563 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@vesica tempestas.1563 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Blaeys.3102 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Blaeys.3102 said:I had this in another thread, but it makes more sense to state it here -
I know some people do not want to accept it, but the reason WoW is seen as the posterchild for how to make raiding work in an MMO is because the developers there adapted the game mode throughout the years and ended up with something that fits with the rest of the game. By including multiple difficulty tiers (including and LFG and flex raid tier), they were able to do things that a game like GW2 cannot, most notably incorporating strong story and lore focused content into raids. Since they do not have to worry about the accessibility factor, raids could become a deeply integrated part of the WoW experience.

WoW is seen as the pinnacle of raiding content because a decade ago it released iconic difficult raid after iconic that people still talk about. People still talk about Ragnaros, C'thun, Kael'thas, Illidan and Arthas. No one has ever or will ever be waxing poetic about Deathwing, Ragnaros 2.0, Garrosh, or Argus the Unmaker a decade from now.

All of the bosses you mention here are now 100-1000 times easier than anything in GW2 because of the gear and level treadmills - game features that created their own sort of difficultly levels (within months of the content being released). Essentially, the content was eventually open and easily accessible to players of all skill levels through that design.

Now, gear treadmills do not exist (or belong) in GW2, so that isn't an option. The correct path to take here is to implement actual difficulty tiers - to achieve that same level of accessibility those iconic raid bosses in WoW had.

The way classic WoW worked didn't give the game an organic difficulty curve. Ragnaros was hard, and you were expected to have your raid mostly geared out from the previous bosses in Molten Core to stand a chance against him. The only thing trivializing him was when your raid started getting geared out in tier 2 equipment from the next harder raid Black Wing Lair. It wasn't open and accessible to players of all skill levels through that design. It made it so that dedicated raid teams could trivialize him.

That doesn't even get into the fact that all those classic bosses and raids had long difficult attunement chains to even get into the dungeon. Classes WoW raids were far less open and accessible than GW2's. It wasn't until cataclysm where they made normal mode a complete joke where everyone was expected to do them. And suprise, that happens to line up with the point and time when people largely stop actually giving a kitten about WoW raids. WoW's population dropped from a peak of 12 Million in WotLK and plummeted down to a low of about 1 million active players in Draenor. And easy mode raids were a huge part of it. It's extremely healthy to have content that players haven't done but want to. It's extremely healthy to have things in the game that players want but don't have. It's more important to have those things, than to have all the content all dried up and people sitting around waiting for the next patch to drop which is where WoW has been post WotLK.

That's the situation GW2 was in during LWS2. The patch would drop. Everyone would blitz through the story that provided zero challenge in an hour and were waiting around for weeks for the next patch bored and miserable because all the content was immediately exhausted.

Your post is just nonsense. Not only were raid bosses (Especially BC+WotLK era) about as hard as GW2's, they were far less accessible in every sense of the word.

he was obviously not talking about vanilla.

He mentioned "iconic" wow bosses. Nothing post WotLK is iconic.

read again.

'adapted the game mode throughout the years and ended up with something that fits with the rest of the game. By including multiple difficulty tiers '

Clearly you need an easy mode for reading comprehension because the specific post is about how WoW's gear treadmill gave it an organic easy and hard mode.

The sentence you're quoting isn't even in the specific post I'm responding to and not relevant to the topic at hand. It's from a completely different post.

you do know about timewalking dont you?

Dude. Like slow down and follow the conversational exchange before posting.

The actual discussion plays out like this.

Blaeys: WoW is seen as the gold standard of raids and it has easy mode. GW2 should have easy mode too.Me: WoW is seen as the gold standard because a decade ago it released iconic raid after iconic raid that were iconic in large part because of their difficulty.Blaeys: Those bosses had an organic built in difficulty curve because of how gear works in that game.Me: That's not how the gear treadmill works.

You: TIMEWALKING

It's also really funny how everyone here keeps bringing up WoW's raids when the number of people playing on the most popular private servers dedicated to faithfully recreating the vanilla WoW experience dwarfs the current number for the live game. Even after all the accessiblity and easy mode raids, far more people are going way out of their way to play the inaccessible version. I'm guessing you slept through all the Nostalrius controversy last year when millions of current and ex-WoW players were begging Blizzard to release legitimate legacy Vanilla WoW servers. I'm also guessing you're the type of person who is always arguing against official Blizzard operated legacy servers.

I play on a vanilla WOTLK server. lets assume he was not talking about vanilla bosses through timewalking. I was also raiding in vanilla, and the gear treadmill did indeed mean that MC and Tier 2 eventually became an AOE fest as did AQ40 at the end. Remember mc 40 pugs?

You realize Vanilla and WotLK are not the same thing and incompatible? You're either on a Vanilla WoW server or a WotLK server. Or you could have accounts on separate servers. But there's no such thing as a Vanilla WotLK server. You sound like someone trying to put on airs.

mortrialus.3062 · June 5, 2018

@maddoctor.2738 said:
@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:There's a demographic not represented here. It includes every player (open PvE, FotM, WvW, sPvP) who has not touched raids and would not touch raids no matter if an easier difficulty were added. With a few exceptions, those players are unlikely to participate in a raid discussion and are thus unlikely to voice an objection to any potential impact on their content of choice. As one of those players, if that means I'm putting on a selfish hat, so be it.It all boils down to this really. How many times have we read the argument about how World of Warcraft does Raids, and how amazing it is. But that's a Raid-centric game, those offering that example don't realize that they want to make this one a Raid-centric game as well.

Especially when you look at the most popular private servers, Vanilla BC and WotLK are all much more popular than Live WoW has been in the past 5 years.

If how WoW does raids now is so popular, why is it the majority of WoW players are currently playing versions of the game where raids didn't have a million tiers of difficulty and the minimum bar was much harder than the current easy mode?

The people saying "Look at WoW's raids!" always deliberately leave that part out.

@"STIHL.2489" said:And he said is that they are "really unique when you look at traditional Raids" at no point did he mention they were supposed to be as difficult as Raids, or be Raid Like Content, nor did he say they were going to be GW2's equal to raids in other games.

I guess "Very, very hard" means "Baby's day out" to you. I don't know how wildly off your thinking has to be to deliberately misinterpret "Very, very hard" as "We don't want hard content in this game."

Roxhemar.6039 · June 5, 2018

They don't. You raid because you want the challenge and the thrill of besting some of the hardest content that the game has to offer, if that's not your cup of tea, then try dungeons or open-world. Raids are fine as they are, and anyone can learn them. I know this because I only just got my first Dhuum kill a few nights ago in a TRAINING run. People who took the time to understand the mechanics and the challenge that was in front of them. And not only learn to respect those mechanics, but fear them. Dhuum is a LONG fight, and when you start that fight and then wipe half-way down because a green failed, it's frustrating. But that is how the dev's wanted it to be and so it is.

World of Warcraft, made the mistake of 'easy mode' raids, and while it included more people, it allowed those already outside that circle to belittle those in the new one and thus, create an even more toxic experience for all involved. In other words, it was a failure, a flop.

As for raids not being profitable for Anet? I don't get that argument at all. I consider myself - while not a casual Guild wars 2 player, a bit above that and I still buy gems occasionally when something interests me.

This thread shouldn't be about removing raids or simplyfying them, it should be about removing things like ARC DPS which allow other players to track your performance, which serves nobody but toxicity.While, I can see how it's useful to know what you're pulling, that doesn't mean everyone and their mother should.

ARC DPS is a tool that was originally banned by Anet in conception and they've come to 'tolerate' it, which isn't good for a lot of people trying to legitimately learn raids. It's a gateway tool that lets select individuals be assholes in a greater extent and then worse let the other assholes beat up on whoever happens to be the little guy.

I don't run ARC, I don't like ARC, and I certainty don't condone ARC. But I do like to raid.

The DPS meter should begin and end with the special forces training arena or a built in system by ANET that displays DPS at the end of a SUCCESSFUL encounter.So if people in the squad want to grab butts and exchange high-fives, while comparing size - they can do so - at the end.

https://www.deltaconnected.com/arcdps/

Is what the real problem looks like.

Ohoni.6057 · June 5, 2018

@"Roxhemar.6039" said:They don't. You raid because you want the challenge and the thrill of besting some of the hardest content that the game has to offer, if that's not your cup of tea, then try dungeons or open-world.

I agree that the current raids aren't for everyone and shouldn't be, but they are the only way to explore those instances, and the only way to earn those rewards, and so long as these things remain true, "they just aren't for you" cannot apply. There need to be alternatives balanced for players who do not seek out "the challenge and the thrill of besting some of the hardest content that the game has to offer."

World of Warcraft, made the mistake of 'easy mode' raids, and while it included more people, it allowed those already outside that circle to belittle those in the new one and thus, create an even more toxic experience for all involved. In other words, it was a failure, a flop.

I would rather be "belittled" by existing raiders for playing easy mode (which I already am), than to not be able to participate in an easy mode at all.

Teamkiller.4315 · June 5, 2018

@Ohoni.6057 said:I think you've made perfectly clear that you don't, nothing more.

I'm not going to allow you to get away with these extremely vague accusations. Moving the goalposts is where when you present an argument (or demand for proof), someone answers it, and you retroactively change said argument so the answer doesn't apply anymore. It's one of those fallacies that allows the user to (incorrectly) trick themselves into thinking they don't ever have to be wrong, which is what you're doing.

It's also what you did. You said someone's suggestion had no pros, I listed some pros, you say they weren't pros, I saw that's because you're only thinking of yourself.

And then you hit me with this:

@Ohoni.6057 said:
@Teamkiller.4315 said:So ohoni, i understand those aren't positives for you but you're not the center of the world.

Yes, and neither are you. Raiders already seem to be mostly fine with how raids are now, and if there are things they'd like changed, I mostly support that, but right now we're talking about the people for whom raids do NOT currently work, and making the mode more fun for

those

players. The changes I advocate for are in the service of that goal. I do not expect existing raiders to benefit significantly from those changes, but that is not the point of them.

That's just drawing a big ??? for me there.

Tyson.5160 · June 5, 2018

@Teamkiller.4315 said:
@Ohoni.6057 said:I think you've made perfectly clear that
you
don't, nothing more.

I'm not going to allow you to get away with these extremely vague accusations. Moving the goalposts is where when you present an argument (or demand for proof), someone answers it, and you retroactively change said argument so the answer doesn't apply anymore. It's one of those fallacies that allows the user to (incorrectly) trick themselves into thinking they don't ever have to be wrong, which is what you're doing.

It's also what you did. You said someone's suggestion had no pros, I listed some pros, you say they weren't pros, I saw that's because you're only thinking of yourself.

And then you hit me with this:

@Ohoni.6057 said:
@Teamkiller.4315 said:So ohoni, i understand those aren't positives for you but you're not the center of the world.

Yes, and neither are you. Raiders already seem to be mostly fine with how raids are now, and if there are things they'd like changed, I mostly support that, but right now we're talking about the people for whom raids do NOT currently work, and making the mode more fun for

those

players. The changes I advocate for are in the service of that goal. I do not expect existing raiders to benefit significantly from those changes, but that is not the point of them.

That's just drawing a big ??? for me there.

The more I read these comments,the more I wonder if putting Legendary Envoy armor behind Raids was a good idea. Had they not thrown in the armor would many of us even be discussing any of this right now? Hypothetically speaking of course.

Ohoni.6057 · June 5, 2018

@Teamkiller.4315 said:Moving the goalposts is where when you present an argument (or demand for proof), someone answers it, and you retroactively change said argument so the answer doesn't apply anymore.

Yes, that's the definition I've been using. Nothing in my statements would qualify.

It's also what you did. You said someone's suggestion had no pros, I listed some pros, you say they weren't pros, I saw that's because you're only thinking of yourself.

Context.

You always forget about context.

I was saying that it had no pros within the context of this discussion. As in, the things that you listed as pros are in no way benefits to the people that were being discussed here, the people unsatisfied with the current raid options.

Again, my goalposts remained fixed. You were just aiming for the bleachers instead, and I pointed that out to you.

STIHL.2489 · June 5, 2018

@Tyson.5160 said:
@Teamkiller.4315 said:
@Ohoni.6057 said:I think you've made perfectly clear that
you
don't, nothing more.

I'm not going to allow you to get away with these extremely vague accusations. Moving the goalposts is where when you present an argument (or demand for proof), someone answers it, and you retroactively change said argument so the answer doesn't apply anymore. It's one of those fallacies that allows the user to (incorrectly) trick themselves into thinking they don't ever have to be wrong, which is what you're doing.

It's also what you did. You said someone's suggestion had no pros, I listed some pros, you say they weren't pros, I saw that's because you're only thinking of yourself.

And then you hit me with this:

@Ohoni.6057 said:
@Teamkiller.4315 said:So ohoni, i understand those aren't positives for you but you're not the center of the world.

Yes, and neither are you. Raiders already seem to be mostly fine with how raids are now, and if there are things they'd like changed, I mostly support that, but right now we're talking about the people for whom raids do NOT currently work, and making the mode more fun for

those

players. The changes I advocate for are in the service of that goal. I do not expect existing raiders to benefit significantly from those changes, but that is not the point of them.

That's just drawing a big ??? for me there.

The more I read these comments,the more I wonder if putting Legendary Envoy armor behind Raids was a good idea. Had they not thrown in the armor would many of us even be discussing any of this right now? Hypothetically speaking of course.

It was a positively horrible idea to do what they did.. and it is about the only thing that is bringing in new blood to the game mode.

Thankfully they had a bout of common sense and put in alternate paths to Legendary Armor.

Tyson.5160 · June 5, 2018

@STIHL.2489 said:
@Tyson.5160 said:
@Teamkiller.4315 said:
@Ohoni.6057 said:I think you've made perfectly clear that
you
don't, nothing more.

I'm not going to allow you to get away with these extremely vague accusations. Moving the goalposts is where when you present an argument (or demand for proof), someone answers it, and you retroactively change said argument so the answer doesn't apply anymore. It's one of those fallacies that allows the user to (incorrectly) trick themselves into thinking they don't ever have to be wrong, which is what you're doing.

It's also what you did. You said someone's suggestion had no pros, I listed some pros, you say they weren't pros, I saw that's because you're only thinking of yourself.

And then you hit me with this:

@Ohoni.6057 said:
@Teamkiller.4315 said:So ohoni, i understand those aren't positives for you but you're not the center of the world.

Yes, and neither are you. Raiders already seem to be mostly fine with how raids are now, and if there are things they'd like changed, I mostly support that, but right now we're talking about the people for whom raids do NOT currently work, and making the mode more fun for

those

players. The changes I advocate for are in the service of that goal. I do not expect existing raiders to benefit significantly from those changes, but that is not the point of them.

That's just drawing a big ??? for me there.

The more I read these comments,the more I wonder if putting Legendary Envoy armor behind Raids was a good idea. Had they not thrown in the armor would many of us even be discussing any of this right now? Hypothetically speaking of course.

It was a positively horrible idea to do what they did.. and it is about the only thing that is bringing in new blood to the game mode.

Thankfully they had a bout of common sense and put in alternate paths to Legendary Armor.

I honestly don’t think people wouldn’t be complaining nearly as much, if they only kept the current raid skins you find now like the pieces of Dhuum’s armor, Matthias staff etc.

I mean Raids were designed to give people the challenge, no? That’s what the driving factor was, yes?

mortrialus.3062 · June 5, 2018

@Tyson.5160 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Tyson.5160 said:
@Teamkiller.4315 said:
@Ohoni.6057 said:I think you've made perfectly clear that
you
don't, nothing more.

I'm not going to allow you to get away with these extremely vague accusations. Moving the goalposts is where when you present an argument (or demand for proof), someone answers it, and you retroactively change said argument so the answer doesn't apply anymore. It's one of those fallacies that allows the user to (incorrectly) trick themselves into thinking they don't ever have to be wrong, which is what you're doing.

It's also what you did. You said someone's suggestion had no pros, I listed some pros, you say they weren't pros, I saw that's because you're only thinking of yourself.

And then you hit me with this:

@Ohoni.6057 said:
@Teamkiller.4315 said:So ohoni, i understand those aren't positives for you but you're not the center of the world.

Yes, and neither are you. Raiders already seem to be mostly fine with how raids are now, and if there are things they'd like changed, I mostly support that, but right now we're talking about the people for whom raids do NOT currently work, and making the mode more fun for

those

players. The changes I advocate for are in the service of that goal. I do not expect existing raiders to benefit significantly from those changes, but that is not the point of them.

That's just drawing a big ??? for me there.

The more I read these comments,the more I wonder if putting Legendary Envoy armor behind Raids was a good idea. Had they not thrown in the armor would many of us even be discussing any of this right now? Hypothetically speaking of course.

It was a positively horrible idea to do what they did.. and it is about the only thing that is bringing in new blood to the game mode.

Thankfully they had a bout of common sense and put in alternate paths to Legendary Armor.

I honestly don’t think people wouldn’t be complaining nearly as much, if they only kept the current raid skins you find now like the pieces of Dhuum’s armor, Matthias staff etc.

I mean Raids were designed to give people the challenge, no? That’s what the driving factor was, yes?

If you give non-raiders the envoy armor, do you really think they're going to be happy until they get Oblivion and everything else too?

Ohoni.6057 · June 5, 2018

@Tyson.5160 said:I honestly don’t think people wouldn’t be complaining nearly as much, if they only kept the current raid skins you find now like the pieces of Dhuum’s armor, Matthias staff etc.

I wouldn't be happy about it, but I would complain a bit less. I would still want an easy mode that I could enjoy though, separate from the rewards.

mortrialus.3062 · June 5, 2018

@Ohoni.6057 said:
@Tyson.5160 said:I honestly don’t think people wouldn’t be complaining nearly as much, if they only kept the current raid skins you find now like the pieces of Dhuum’s armor, Matthias staff etc.

I wouldn't be happy about it, but I would complain a bit less. I would still want an easy mode that I could

enjoy

though, separate from the rewards.

You wouldn't enjoy an easy mode raid. Without the difficulty you'd clear a raid in 15 minutes and never play it or think about it again like how everyone consumes the Living World episodes.

Tyson.5160 · June 5, 2018

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Tyson.5160 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Tyson.5160 said:
@Teamkiller.4315 said:
@Ohoni.6057 said:I think you've made perfectly clear that
you
don't, nothing more.

I'm not going to allow you to get away with these extremely vague accusations. Moving the goalposts is where when you present an argument (or demand for proof), someone answers it, and you retroactively change said argument so the answer doesn't apply anymore. It's one of those fallacies that allows the user to (incorrectly) trick themselves into thinking they don't ever have to be wrong, which is what you're doing.

It's also what you did. You said someone's suggestion had no pros, I listed some pros, you say they weren't pros, I saw that's because you're only thinking of yourself.

And then you hit me with this:

@Ohoni.6057 said:
@Teamkiller.4315 said:So ohoni, i understand those aren't positives for you but you're not the center of the world.

Yes, and neither are you. Raiders already seem to be mostly fine with how raids are now, and if there are things they'd like changed, I mostly support that, but right now we're talking about the people for whom raids do NOT currently work, and making the mode more fun for

those

players. The changes I advocate for are in the service of that goal. I do not expect existing raiders to benefit significantly from those changes, but that is not the point of them.

That's just drawing a big ??? for me there.

The more I read these comments,the more I wonder if putting Legendary Envoy armor behind Raids was a good idea. Had they not thrown in the armor would many of us even be discussing any of this right now? Hypothetically speaking of course.

It was a positively horrible idea to do what they did.. and it is about the only thing that is bringing in new blood to the game mode.

Thankfully they had a bout of common sense and put in alternate paths to Legendary Armor.

I honestly don’t think people wouldn’t be complaining nearly as much, if they only kept the current raid skins you find now like the pieces of Dhuum’s armor, Matthias staff etc.

I mean Raids were designed to give people the challenge, no? That’s what the driving factor was, yes?

If you give non-raiders the envoy armor, do you really think they're going to be happy until they get Oblivion and everything else too?

And yet, I see no one complaining about oblivion or the Dhuum armor at all though. What I do see is people complaining about Envoy.

mortrialus.3062 · June 5, 2018

@Tyson.5160 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Tyson.5160 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Tyson.5160 said:
@Teamkiller.4315 said:
@Ohoni.6057 said:I think you've made perfectly clear that
you
don't, nothing more.

I'm not going to allow you to get away with these extremely vague accusations. Moving the goalposts is where when you present an argument (or demand for proof), someone answers it, and you retroactively change said argument so the answer doesn't apply anymore. It's one of those fallacies that allows the user to (incorrectly) trick themselves into thinking they don't ever have to be wrong, which is what you're doing.

It's also what you did. You said someone's suggestion had no pros, I listed some pros, you say they weren't pros, I saw that's because you're only thinking of yourself.

And then you hit me with this:

@Ohoni.6057 said:
@Teamkiller.4315 said:So ohoni, i understand those aren't positives for you but you're not the center of the world.

Yes, and neither are you. Raiders already seem to be mostly fine with how raids are now, and if there are things they'd like changed, I mostly support that, but right now we're talking about the people for whom raids do NOT currently work, and making the mode more fun for

those

players. The changes I advocate for are in the service of that goal. I do not expect existing raiders to benefit significantly from those changes, but that is not the point of them.

That's just drawing a big ??? for me there.

The more I read these comments,the more I wonder if putting Legendary Envoy armor behind Raids was a good idea. Had they not thrown in the armor would many of us even be discussing any of this right now? Hypothetically speaking of course.

It was a positively horrible idea to do what they did.. and it is about the only thing that is bringing in new blood to the game mode.

Thankfully they had a bout of common sense and put in alternate paths to Legendary Armor.

I honestly don’t think people wouldn’t be complaining nearly as much, if they only kept the current raid skins you find now like the pieces of Dhuum’s armor, Matthias staff etc.

I mean Raids were designed to give people the challenge, no? That’s what the driving factor was, yes?

If you give non-raiders the envoy armor, do you really think they're going to be happy until they get Oblivion and everything else too?

And yet, I see no one complaining about oblivion or the Dhuum armor at all though. What I do see is people complaining about Envoy.

Maybe not specifically but every time they complain about raid rewards we might as well have point a check in the weapon skin tallies as well.

Tyson.5160 · June 5, 2018

@Tyson.5160 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Tyson.5160 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Tyson.5160 said:
@Teamkiller.4315 said:
@Ohoni.6057 said:I think you've made perfectly clear that
you
don't, nothing more.

I'm not going to allow you to get away with these extremely vague accusations. Moving the goalposts is where when you present an argument (or demand for proof), someone answers it, and you retroactively change said argument so the answer doesn't apply anymore. It's one of those fallacies that allows the user to (incorrectly) trick themselves into thinking they don't ever have to be wrong, which is what you're doing.

It's also what you did. You said someone's suggestion had no pros, I listed some pros, you say they weren't pros, I saw that's because you're only thinking of yourself.

And then you hit me with this:

@Ohoni.6057 said:
@Teamkiller.4315 said:So ohoni, i understand those aren't positives for you but you're not the center of the world.

Yes, and neither are you. Raiders already seem to be mostly fine with how raids are now, and if there are things they'd like changed, I mostly support that, but right now we're talking about the people for whom raids do NOT currently work, and making the mode more fun for

those

players. The changes I advocate for are in the service of that goal. I do not expect existing raiders to benefit significantly from those changes, but that is not the point of them.

That's just drawing a big ??? for me there.

The more I read these comments,the more I wonder if putting Legendary Envoy armor behind Raids was a good idea. Had they not thrown in the armor would many of us even be discussing any of this right now? Hypothetically speaking of course.

It was a positively horrible idea to do what they did.. and it is about the only thing that is bringing in new blood to the game mode.

Thankfully they had a bout of common sense and put in alternate paths to Legendary Armor.

I honestly don’t think people wouldn’t be complaining nearly as much, if they only kept the current raid skins you find now like the pieces of Dhuum’s armor, Matthias staff etc.

I mean Raids were designed to give people the challenge, no? That’s what the driving factor was, yes?

If you give non-raiders the envoy armor, do you really think they're going to be happy until they get Oblivion and everything else too?

And yet, I see no one complaining about oblivion or the Dhuum armor at all though. What I do see is people complaining about Envoy.

If Envoy wasn’t attached to raids, then I don’t think we would nearly have the problems we have been discussing about.

Ohoni.6057 · June 5, 2018

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Ohoni.6057 said:
@Tyson.5160 said:I honestly don’t think people wouldn’t be complaining nearly as much, if they only kept the current raid skins you find now like the pieces of Dhuum’s armor, Matthias staff etc.

I wouldn't be happy about it, but I would complain a bit less. I would still want an easy mode that I could

enjoy

though, separate from the rewards.

You wouldn't enjoy an easy mode raid. Without the difficulty you'd clear a raid in 15 minutes and never play it or think about it again like how everyone consumes the Living World episodes.

Maybe, but I'd still like to do that. If the rewards are balanced to the content then I would enjoy repeating it.

@Tyson.5160 said:And yet, I see no one complaining about oblivion or the Dhuum armor at all though. What I do see is people complaining about Envoy.

Now I do want some Dhuum armor though, that stuff looks pretty neat. It wasn't really advertised as much so I imagine most people are unaware it exists.

Tyson.5160 · June 5, 2018

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Tyson.5160 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Tyson.5160 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Tyson.5160 said:
@Teamkiller.4315 said:
@Ohoni.6057 said:I think you've made perfectly clear that
you
don't, nothing more.