Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[FrostDraco.8306]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:"The whole game is the endgame".

I don't understand what this quote is supposed to beIt was supposed to be the primary design goal and leading line of this game. Devs once used to say that a lot. It meant that all content is supposed to be equally important, and that no part of the game should be depreciated simply because you leveled up, geared up or just played for longer.

and how this is relevant to what I said or responded to?It is relevant, because you seem to think that the "endgame" equipment should only have a place in "endgame" content. And that "endgame" content should be something separate from the rest of the game. WHile, according to the original design goals, Raids should be no more of an endgame than Living Story is.

So he sees lege items as "endgame", but at the same time demands "easy modes" to reward endgame "exclusive" (you know...

legendary

) gear. That doesn't make much sense to me.Yes, i understood your point. That's why i responded like i did - that i don't understand the idea of associating the term "endgame" with niche content only a minority of players are interested in. Considering that "endgame" is an overall term for goals and content that is going to keep players in the game longterm, it's like you think that most players don't deserve to have that at all. What do you think those players should do then, quit? Is this game supposed to be only for those interested in niche content, and others should not even hope for an "endgame" of their own?That makes no sense to me.

Those of us who wanted raids to be an actual supported game mode and not a tac on like SAB have basically done so already. Most of us haven't even asked for much, and we are still disappointed.

[Astralporing.1957]

@FrostDraco.8306 said:Those of us who wanted raids to be an actual supported game mode and not a tac on like SAB have basically done so already. Most of us haven't even asked for much, and we are still disappointed.Sure, a lot of game modes in GW2 lack the support they might require. However, how is that relevant in the context of what i was talking about?

[Sobx.1758]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:"The whole game is the endgame".

I don't understand what this quote is supposed to beIt was supposed to be the primary design goal and leading line of this game. Devs once used to say that a lot. It meant that all content is supposed to be equally important, and that no part of the game should be depreciated simply because you leveled up, geared up or just played for longer.

Ah, ok. Too bad it doesn't seem to be true for a loooooooooooong time now seeing the differences in rewards not only within specific game modes (pve content), but also between the broader modes (pvp/pve/wvw). It sounds nice, sure. But it doesn't seem to be true.Tbh I don't see anything wrong about different content rewarding players with different things, but I understand that it's nothing more than personal preference. Never liked "participation awards" either, that just makes them pointless to me and maybe those preferences are somehow connected with each other.

and how this is relevant to what I said or responded to?It is relevant, because you seem to think that the "endgame" equipment should only have a place in "endgame" content. And that "endgame" content should be something separate from the rest of the game. WHile, according to the original design goals, Raids should be no more of an endgame than Living Story is.

So he sees lege items as "endgame", but at the same time demands "easy modes" to reward endgame "exclusive" (you know...

legendary

) gear. That doesn't make much sense to me.Yes, i understood your point. That's why i responded like i did - that i don't understand the idea of associating the term "endgame" with niche content only a minority of players are interested in. Considering that "endgame" is an overall term for goals and content that is going to keep players in the game longterm, it's like you think that most players don't deserve to have that at all.

It's not exactly about "associating engame with niche content". It's about associating "endgame" with understanding game mechanics and if one needs some kind of easy mode for raids to complete them then... apparently they just don't.

Not only that, but I don't see how the claim "by locking them out of any easy mode, you're locking people out of long-term engagement" is even remotely true. Since when is anyone "locked out of long-term engagement" equivalent to receiving the rewards "just by logging in despite refusal to learn the game's mechanics"? I'd say it's quite the opposite -where's the "long-term engagement" if you're never supposed to improve or learn anything new? If I refuse to jump at the correct times in mario, does it mean it's a terrible design because I won't finish the game until I improve? This is a game, there is supposed to be some level of challenge in exchange for the success/rewards. Otherwise you end up with log-in rewards instead of actual content, automated clicker games or interactive stories. That doesn't seem like an optimal approach for an action mmorpg game.And -again- nobody is locked out of any content by not having legendary items. By far.

What do you think those players should do then, quit? Is this game supposed to be only for those interested in niche content, and others should not even hope for an "endgame" of their own?That makes no sense to me.

They can do whatever they want. What if I want every item in the gemstore for free, but I'm locked out of it because...a) I don't have moneyb) there's way too much farming required to get gold>gem conversion to buy out the store "and I don't want to"

What am I supposed to do now that I'm "locked out of most of the rewards I want"? Quit? Is this somehow your problem to solve "because I want everything just because I logged in"? The player doesn't "deserve rewards" just because they decided to launch the game. If that's the reason for someone to quit then there's not much to do about it."I want that reward because I DO! But I won't learn the content! But if I don't get the reward then I guess I'll quit!" -that's just not a valid point of view for me.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:"The whole game is the endgame".

I don't understand what this quote is supposed to beIt was supposed to be the primary design goal and leading line of this game. Devs once used to say that a lot. It meant that all content is supposed to be equally important, and that no part of the game should be depreciated simply because you leveled up, geared up or just played for longer.

And you remember what happened because of that "design goal"? Guild Wars 2 was, by far, the least rewarding mmorpg that ever existed. It was well hidden and you had to reach a certain point (level 80) to first see the problem, but it was always there. That "design goal" meant there was nothing worth doing in the game, so the best ways to play it, was to find events that spawned a giant number of normal mobs, to get their trash loot.

Oh and legendaries and other expensive crafted skins really ruined that so called "design goal"

[Astralporing.1957]

@"maddoctor.2738" said:And you remember what happened because of that "design goal"? Guild Wars 2 was, by far, the least rewarding mmorpg that ever existed.It had nothing to do with that design goal. It was just plain badly designed reward system. They have improved on it since then, and most of the improvements did not require (or, in fact, have anything to do with) introducing specific "endgame content".

Oh and legendaries and other expensive crafted skins really ruined that so called "design goal"They didn't. Those skings and gen1 legendaries were fully supporting it. You could basically play whatever you wanted (with only occasional very shallow dipping in other types of content) and yet still progress towards them. Even if some types of content offered slower progression than others, they still did offer it.

Although i do agree that SPvP reward system was absolutely tragic before they introduced reward tracks. Still, as you might notice, that was not afailure of the design goal, but the failure of the reward system to implement that goal properly (also, they probably didn't think that SPvP players would be interested in rewards meant primarily for other modes)

Notice, btw, that i did not speak anything in that post about content-specific rewards. Although i don't like to see those overused (and think some things should not be restricted, and that some types of the restriction are worse than others), i don't see the idea of content-specific rewards itself to be conflicting with the "whole game is the endgame" design at all. What i was speaking against was designating some rewards as "endgame", and thinking it means they should ever be only obtained through some specific "endgame content" - and that only some types of content are "worthy" of the "endgame" description.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:And you remember what happened because of that "design goal"? Guild Wars 2 was, by far, the least rewarding mmorpg that ever existed.It had nothing to do with that design goal. It was just plain badly designed reward system. They have improved on it since then, and most of the improvements did not require (or, in fact, have anything to do with) introducing specific "endgame content".

I guess this is where everyone's interpretation of "endgame content" will come in.

They didn't. Those skings and gen1 legendaries were fully supporting it. You could basically play whatever you wanted (with only occasional very shallow dipping in other types of content) and yet still progress towards them. Even if some types of content offered slower progression than others, they still did offer it.

And that was exactly the mistake of the original system. A mistake that they started fixing early on.

Although i do agree that SPvP reward system was absolutely tragic before they introduced reward tracks. Still, as you might notice, that was not afailure of the design goal, but the failure of the reward system to implement that goal properly (also, they probably didn't think that SPvP players would be interested in rewards meant primarily for other modes)

PVP had a great reward system before the introduction of reward tracks. You could get expensive PVE skins with rather little effort, like the "Dwayna" skins, or the Hunter (Predator precursor) skin. PVP was also the only way to earn gems directly, as monthly tournaments awarded gems, being the only way to get Gems directly from Arenanet, other than achievement rewards and buying deluxe editions of expansions. And yes that was all completely against the "design goal" since PVP used a completely different reward system.

Notice, btw, that i did not speak anything in that post about content-specific rewards. Although i don't like to see those overused (and think some things should not be restricted), i don't see the idea of content-specific rewards to be conflicting with the "whole game is the endgame" design at all.

Yes, the original idea was to push players to use their credit cards, spend money and buy gems, then convert to gold. That's why they "allowed" someone farming Moa in Queensdale access to rewards like Legendaries. It would take years of farming, but a player could theoretically acquire most rewards without leaving the starting zone. I disagree that they overuse content-specific rewards, I want them to add rewards behind content instead of promoting money spending

What i was speaking against was designating some rewards as "endgame", and thinking it means they should ever be only obtained through some specific "endgame content" - and that only some types of content are "worthy" of the "endgame" description.

Dungeon rewards were unique, and Dungeons were "endgame", I'd call them endgame, especially on release. At least until the reward tracks were added, so the game did launch with endgame content, and it had unique rewards not found anywhere else.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"maddoctor.2738" said:PVP had a great reward system before the introduction of reward tracks. You could get expensive PVE skins with rather little effort, like the "Dwayna" skins, or the Hunter (Predator precursor) skin.In a way, yes, but with the caveat that you could not use those in PvE. SPvP was, in fact, a completely separate game with its own reward system.

PVP was also the only way to earn gems directly, as monthly tournaments awarded gems, being the only way to get Gems directly from Arenanet, other than achievement rewards and buying deluxe editions of expansions. And yes that was all completely against the "design goal" since PVP used a completely different reward system.That's debatable. Apart from tournament rewards (which were beyond the reach of most PvP players anyway), that completely different reward system was usable for SPvP alone. There was no point in doing SPvP for rewards which you would use somewhere else - because you could not use them anywhere else.

That was completely inline with the overall design - it allowed those that liked SPvP to play that mode without concerning themselves with other content, because rewards from those other contents could not be used in SPvP. It also allowed people that didn't like SPvP to ignore it, because nothing they could obtain there would have been useful to them anyway. So, you could play wherever you wanted.

Notice, btw, that i did not speak anything in that post about content-specific rewards. Although i don't like to see those overused (and think some things should not be restricted), i don't see the idea of content-specific rewards to be conflicting with the "whole game is the endgame" design at all.

Yes, the original idea was to push players to use their credit cards, spend money and buy gems, then convert to gold. That's why they "allowed" someone farming Moa in Queensdale access to rewards like Legendaries. It would take years of farming, but a player could theoretically acquire most rewards without leaving the starting zone. I disagree that they overuse content-specific rewards, I want them to add rewards behind content instead of promoting money spendingThat's... not an argument i'd touch in this thread, as it would result in a massive derail. It's also something that has absolutely no connection with the part of my post you quoted here, so i am not sure why you suddenly started ranting about it here.

What i was speaking against was designating some rewards as "endgame", and thinking it means they should ever be only obtained through some specific "endgame content" - and that only some types of content are "worthy" of the "endgame" description.

Dungeon rewards were unique, and Dungeons were "endgame", I'd call them endgame, especially on release. At least until the reward tracks were added, so the game did launch with endgame content, and it had unique rewards not found anywhere else.As i said, i have no problem with unique rewards. Dungeons skins sure were unique, but noone was saying that they were "endgame tier" and

thus

had no place in other content. And if anyone tried, you could immediately point them at the equally "endgame tier" Orr Temple karma armor sets. Also, dungeon sets might have required some farming if you wanted a whole set, but if you wanted only few skins, you could get them easy, with no problem. Especially since casual runs were a thing.The amount of effort required to obtain all dungeon skins (and enough tokens for legendary gifts on top of that) was not even close to the effort one needs to put to get a single set of legendary armor.

And all that (and this is the important part) was for visuals alone, because beyond visuals dungeons offered nothing that could not be obtained via a different way.

I have no problem with restricting envoy armor set to raids. I have a problem with claiming that legendary armor has no place in content like easy mode, simply because it is legendary, and as such should belong in "endgame content" only (with the suggestion that easy mode would obviously not be deserving of being an endgame content).

So, i may agree that if you want to have envoy armor, you should raid. I don't agree that the only legendary armor available in PvE should be raid-locked, and i definitely do not agree with the suggestion that a majority of GW2 players do not deserve to have an endgame content of their own - one they might like. Because that last statement especially is (as i see it) the roundabout way of telling a huge majority of players "this game is not for you, so you should probably gtfo".

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Apart from tournament rewards (which were beyond the reach of most PvP players anyway), that completely different reward system was usable for SPvP alone.

It wasn't so out of reach back then, unlike today. You simply had to play a few daily PVP matches to earn tournament tickets. Then use those tickets to play in the paid tournament, a single win in that would give you gems. Of course that system was scrapped quickly (February 2013) maybe because it awarded too many gems ;)At least to those that could take advantage of it, or even knew it existed lolAlso, few knew how to play PVP back then, unlike today, the tournaments are dominated by the "pros".

It also allowed people that didn't like SPvP to ignore it, because nothing they could obtain there would have been useful to them anyway. So, you could play wherever you wanted.

Yep. The good times. Then they added the reward tracks to "help" PVP players earn rewards available in other areas of PVE, which had the exact opposite effect. And the terrible "custom arena" farming to allow those who hate PVP to earn the PVE rewards they cannot earn from playing PVE. The irony. Nothing that can be done about it at this point I guess.

Just had to... remember how PVP was back then in the last few posts, got carried away.

That's... not an argument i'd touch in this thread, as it would result in a massive derail.

Because it was part of the initial plan and why the initial plan worked the way it did. Most of the "high end" rewards were available with Karma (like Temple armors) or Gold (like racial armors) or a combination of, available on the TP, materials (like Legendary Weapons), so mostly gold. Yes, they allowed players to earn that gold by playing whatever content they wished, but that meant an insane grind, a grind that players would be "pressured" to skip by spending money. Mobile game level practices really, even though it was only for cosmetics and not actual power. This is why I dislike the original plan of allowing players to earn their rewards in the content of their choice, and instead want content itself to drive rewards (and have enough unique rewards) and not gold.

I mostly replied because I dislike the original design goal and how the game launched. The idea of earning everything by playing a variety of content, putting a huge emphasis on gold, meaning monetization.

I have no problem with restricting envoy armor set to raids. I have a problem with claiming that legendary armor has no place in content like easy mode, simply because it is legendary, and as such should belong in "endgame content" only (with the suggestion that easy mode would obviously not be deserving of being an endgame content).

Given how we can get Gen 1 Legendary Weapons by using a credit card... I have no issue with the addition of another legendary armor set, not raid locked. Obviously a different skin. But I think the question was about an easy mode for Raids getting Legendary Armor, which I'd answer with a resounding no. Legendary armor is a reward of normal Raids. Some -other- content awarding Legendary armor: sure. An easy mode for Raids awarding Legendary armor: no. Plus I'm sure those who want another way of getting legendary armor wouldn't want it to be from the easy mode... because that would mean there would be no other way. At least for a time

[Sobx.1758]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:I have no problem with restricting envoy armor set to raids. I have a problem with claiming that legendary armor has no place in content like easy mode, simply because it is legendary, and as such should belong in "endgame content" only (with the suggestion that easy mode would obviously not be deserving of being an endgame content).

And I have a problem with false claims like "legendary armor in raids locks players out of long-term engagement" while the same person tries to just get rewarded for not learning the game mechanics as if that somehow supports his "long-term engagement". Nobody needs legendary items, nothing is locked by them, people can easly play with ascended gear. And nobody said you need to be rewarded equally regardless of what you do in the game as opposed to what you previously wrote about "everything being endgame", which isn't even a thing for a long time whether you like it or not. Not everything needs to be some kind of participation reward, that's just boring and straight up pointless.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Sobx.1758" said:And I have a problem with false claims like "legendary armor in raids locks players out of long-term engagement" while the same person tries to just get rewarded for not learning the game mechanics as if that somehow supports his "long-term engagement".Except, in a way, he is right. Legendaries are an "endgame" by themselves, in the meaning they are a longterm goal that is there for people to pursue and thus, in itself, a form of "long-term engagement". If you lock that kind of reward beyond a content most players will never play, you remove this specific "long-term engagement" from those players. Sure, you can do that, but you'd better offer something equally interesting to them instead. Or they will just leave. Because they need "long-term engagement" rewards as much as you do. Possibly more, seeing as the content they prefer in itself is less of an long-term engagement type.

Basically: majority of players in this game also need their form of "endgame". Even if they will be pursuing it in types of content you feel should not be rewarding because they don't fit your standarts. If you disagree with that, you are basically doing what i mentioned already: telling those players that if they are looking for something that's going to keep them engaged for longer, they should not look for it in this game, but go elsewhere.

Hint: if you think of this game's future, this is not a healthy approach. Because without all those players this game is not going to survive.

[Sobx.1758]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:And I have a problem with false claims like "legendary armor in raids locks players out of long-term engagement" while the same person tries to just get rewarded for not learning the game mechanics as if that somehow supports his "long-term engagement".Except, in a way, he is right. Legendaries are an "endgame" by themselves, in the meaning they are a longterm goal that is there for people to pursue and thus, in itself, a form of "long-term engagement". If you lock that kind of reward beyond a content most players will never play, you remove this specific "long-term engagement" from those players. Sure, you can do that, but you'd better offer something equally interesting to them instead. Or they will just leave. Because they need "long-term engagement" rewards as much as you do. Possibly more, seeing as the content they prefer in itself is less of an long-term engagement type.

But he isn't. If that's a "long-term goal" then it should be gained for understanding and completing the content, not just for walking through "easy mode" that people claim they want "for the story". It's almost as if that's exactly why I mentioned it in the first place, where his claim about "long-term goal" being "hidden behind harder content" works against itself. If you give something out for just logging into the game, it's not "long term engagement" or "long term goal". It's pointless and there's nothing "legendary" about it. You don't deserve to get every reward just because you've logged into the game.

Basically: majority of players in this game also need their form of "endgame". Even if they will be pursuing it in types of content you feel should not be rewarding because they don't fit your standarts. If you disagree with that, you are basically doing what i mentioned already: telling those players that if they are looking for something that's going to keep them engaged for longer, they should not look for it in this game, but go elsewhere.

Majority of players in this game do have their endgame. They play what they want and how they want. They don't need legendary items for any of that, especially if something like raids is so problematic for them for some reason.

Hint: if you think of this game's future, this is not a healthy approach. Because without all those players this game is not going to survive.

Ah yes, I forgot that the legendary items are what "makes or breaks" the game for majority of the players.Hint: no, it's not and if someone doesn't enjoy the game to the point of "wanting to quit the game because I don't have that armor!" then they'll quit the game right after getting that armor anyways. Armor is a reward, not content. It's not needed to play through the content people enjoy. It doesn't lock anything, stop pretending it somehow kills long-term engagement, because it doesn't.

[skus.4527]

@"Sobx.1758" said:Ah yes, I forgot that the legendary items are what "makes or breaks" the game for majority of the players.Hint: no, it's not and if someone doesn't enjoy the game to the point of "wanting to quit the game because I don't have that armor!" then they'll quit the game right after getting that armor anyways. Armor is a reward, not content. It's not needed to play through the content people enjoy. It doesn't lock anything, stop pretending it somehow kills long-term engagement, because it doesn't.

Then what's the problem with an easy mode, or making legendries available in it? This argument applies equally both ways. Legendries aren't needed for raiding any more than they are for open world or any other game mode. Raiders can use ascended, too. And who cares if there's an easy mode or other people have legendries, raiders aren't in it for the armor, or they'd quit as soon as they have it, right? Adding things for others takes nothing from raiders . According to this, raiders should be in it for the content (or the challenge, if the content were the same in an easy mode.)

If that's right, then everyone gets what they want and there's no problem.

[Vilin.8056]

@skus.4527 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:Ah yes, I forgot that the legendary items are what "makes or breaks" the game for majority of the players.Hint: no, it's not and if someone doesn't enjoy the game to the point of "wanting to quit the game because I don't have that armor!" then they'll quit the game right after getting that armor anyways. Armor is a reward, not content. It's not needed to play through the content people enjoy. It doesn't lock anything, stop pretending it somehow kills long-term engagement, because it doesn't.

Then what's the problem with an easy mode, or making legendries available in it? This argument applies equally both ways. Legendries aren't needed for raiding any more than they are for open world or any other game mode. Raiders can use ascended, too. And who cares if there's an easy mode or other people have legendries, raiders aren't in it for the armor, or they'd quit as soon as they have it, right? Adding things for others takes nothing from raiders . According to this, raiders should be in it for the content (or the challenge, if the content were the same in an easy mode.)

If that's right, then everyone gets what they want and there's no problem.

The problem with easy mode is that people who don't raid will either only do it once for the story, or wouldn't bother with it at all.Strike Missions has already proven such concept has failed at the casual level.

Furthermore, given the overall cost and effort to craft an legendary armor, the stat swapping feature isn't practical for players who doesn't care about WvW nor raiding in the first place. Only a very niche amount of players would appreciate this alteration and would probably ends up grudging for the many extra efforts required for not playing regular raids.

[Bridget Morrigan.1752]

I think there's some merit to adding both easy and hard modes, but tbh as far as getting players into raids to allow them to see the content and farm the rewards, versus where I want developer time spent, I think the only significant change that needs to be made is a mode with slightly reduced rewards (but still farmable for all the same stuff) that doesn't have an enrage timer. Then people can throw themselves at the content until they understand it.

[skus.4527]

@Vilin.8056 said:The problem with easy mode is that people who don't raid will either only do it once for the story, or wouldn't bother with it at all.Strike Missions has already proven such concept has failed at the casual level.

Furthermore, given the overall cost and effort to craft an legendary armor, the stat swapping feature isn't practical for players who doesn't care about WvW nor raiding in the first place. Only a very niche amount of players would appreciate this alteration and would probably ends up grudging for the many extra efforts required for not playing regular raids.

I'm not sure I agree with either of these points.

GW2 is not WoW, of course, but plenty of WoW players run LFR (the easy-mode equivalent) regularly even with three other raid modes available. And people in GW2 run metas and other things past when the story is no longer relevant. My sense is that if there were some rewards, even just random stuff to sell on to TP, people would run the content.

You might be right about the cost and the difficulty of crafting legendary armor - it certainly looks daunting to me. The stat swapping feature is attractive to players of all play levels, I think, because it means you can try different specs or swap between them without having so many extra sets of gear. I don't know if it's worth the effort to make, even taking other features of legendary armor like the cosmetics into account. But if it's one of those things that you can just get by playing eventually it remains a good long term goal and a reason to run the content. An easier mode would allow people to 'raid' without having to become 'raiders' and farm the content like a meta. Right now there's a hard difficulty lock - an easy mode would at least make that bit of crafting the armor more accessible, whether or not anyone actually chose to do it. (I view it as something like the whole map completion achieve - it's not hard to complete the map, but it is a lot of work that might only be useful if there's a very specific goal in mind.)

[Vilin.8056]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:And I have a problem with false claims like "legendary armor in raids locks players out of long-term engagement" while the same person tries to just get rewarded for not learning the game mechanics as if that somehow supports his "long-term engagement".Except, in a way, he is right. Legendaries are an "endgame" by themselves, in the meaning they are a longterm goal that is there for people to pursue and thus, in itself, a form of "long-term engagement". If you lock that kind of reward beyond a content most players will never play, you remove this specific "long-term engagement" from those players. Sure, you can do that, but you'd better offer something equally interesting to them instead. Or they will just leave. Because they need "long-term engagement" rewards as much as you do. Possibly more, seeing as the content they prefer in itself is less of an long-term engagement type.

But he isn't. If that's a "long-term goal" then it should be gained for understanding and completing the content, not just for walking through "easy mode" that people claim they want "for the story". It's almost as if that's exactly why I mentioned it in the first place, where his claim about "long-term goal" being "hidden behind harder content" works against itself. If you give something out for just logging into the game, it's not "long term engagement" or "long term goal". It's pointless and there's nothing "legendary" about it. You don't deserve to get every reward just because you've logged into the game.

Basically: majority of players in this game

also

need their form of "endgame". Even if they will be pursuing it in types of content you feel should not be rewarding because they don't fit your standarts. If you disagree with that, you are basically doing what i mentioned already: telling those players that if they are looking for something that's going to keep them engaged for longer, they should not look for it in this game, but go elsewhere.

Majority of players in this game

do

have

their endgame

. They play what they want and how they want. They don't need legendary items for any of that, especially if something like raids is so problematic for them

for some reason

.

Hint: if you think of this game's future, this is not a healthy approach. Because without all those players this game is not going to survive.

Ah yes, I forgot that the legendary items are what "makes or breaks" the game for majority of the players.Hint: no, it's not and if someone doesn't enjoy the game to the point of "wanting to quit the game because I don't have that armor!" then they'll quit the game right after getting that armor anyways. Armor is a reward, not content. It's not needed to play through the content people enjoy. It doesn't lock anything, stop pretending it somehow kills long-term engagement, because it doesn't.

Back in the first editions of GW2, it requires a completion of all 3 WvW maps, 2k badge of honors, 500 dungeon tokens when dungeons were super hard, and assemble all 77 mystic clovers from the mystic forge with no alternatives. In reference there were no Silverwaste, Daily only reward 1-2 silvers, and world boss only offer around an average of 50 silvers for 30 minutes of effort. They were so atrocious that only a handful of very hardcore players were able to acquire one and gold sellers were able to hype the price of each at around $400-700 USD.

Now Gen.1 become so easy to farm that everybody has multiple of them now, and some casual players become illusioned that all legendaries should be equally as easy with mediocre effort.

[Vilin.8056]

@skus.4527 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:The problem with easy mode is that people who don't raid will either only do it once for the story, or wouldn't bother with it at all.Strike Missions has already proven such concept has failed at the casual level.

Furthermore, given the overall cost and effort to craft an legendary armor, the stat swapping feature isn't practical for players who doesn't care about WvW nor raiding in the first place. Only a very niche amount of players would appreciate this alteration and would probably ends up grudging for the many extra efforts required for not playing regular raids.

I'm not sure I agree with either of these points.

GW2 is not WoW, of course, but plenty of WoW players run LFR (the easy-mode equivalent) regularly even with

three

other raid modes available. And people in GW2 run metas and other things past when the story is no longer relevant. My sense is that if there were some rewards, even just random stuff to sell on to TP, people would run the content.

You might be right about the cost and the difficulty of crafting legendary armor - it certainly looks daunting to me. The stat swapping feature is attractive to players of all play levels, I think, because it means you can try different specs or swap between them without having so many extra sets of gear. I don't know if it's worth the effort to make, even taking other features of legendary armor like the cosmetics into account. But if it's one of those things that you can just get by playing eventually it remains a good long term goal and a reason to run the content. An easier mode would allow people to 'raid' without having to become 'raiders' and farm the content like a meta. Right now there's a hard difficulty lock - an easy mode would at least make that bit of crafting the armor more accessible, whether or not anyone actually chose to do it. (I view it as something like the whole map completion achieve - it's not

hard

to complete the map, but it is a lot of

work

that might only be useful if there's a very specific goal in mind.)Yet GW2 is not WoW, the class/role creation isn't locked like WoW and what divert players isn't behind gear levels but instead their choice of set up and playstyle.It's these choices that most casual players are unwilling to give up, whatever the difficulty of the content, Strike missions has proven this.Skill level of players is hardly much of an issue as of today since all raid contents related with Legendary armors are nerfed nearly into strike mission level.

Most Players who don't Raid, WvW, or PvP aren't really interested in trying out various stats of armor, most still stick with one build, less even willing to spent thousands of gold PLUS the extra collections and grinds for it. It's not even practical since the exotic price crash, introduction of presets, and the introductions of Dire meta(which only cost around 25 silver per armor) for open world builds.

As for owning a set legendary armor, imagine having to reset all 6 pieces of armor PLUS all 6 runes for stat swap, with the risk of ruin the whole thing when you miss click on either of these 12 steps, it's an atrocious step even for Raiders, and hardly something a player who only farms open world would like to include in their gameplay.

[Vilin.8056]

deleted for duplicate

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Sobx.1758" said:If you give something out for just logging into the game, it's not "long term engagement" or "long term goal".Giving out rewards for actively playing a content is not the same as giving them out "just for logging in into the game". Even if said content is not up to your standarts of "challenge".

You don't deserve to get every reward just because you've logged into the game.Then it's good noone's asking for that, right?(hint: a strawman is a strawman)

Ah yes, I forgot that the legendary items are what "makes or breaks" the game for majority of the players.No, they are not. But being treated as second class citizens can be. And that's what you're trying to do - treating majority of players as if they are not "worthy" of certain categories of rewards.

Truth is, there's nothing that makes raiders "more worthy" of legendary gear. That "worthiness" of players in this case is a purely social construct that is being propagated by some players that want to feel better about themselves - merely a byproduct of what type of content you happen to like or dislike, nothing more.

[Sobx.1758]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:If you give something out for just logging into the game, it's not "long term engagement" or "long term goal".Giving out rewards for actively playing a content is not the same as giving them out "just for logging in into the game". Even if said content is not up to your standarts of "challenge".

Current iteration of raids is "content", people that want rewards for that content need to actively play through it -and if they need to actively learn mechanics to complete it then that's exactly what they need to do (instead of pushing to make it an interactive story, which no longer is the intended content with its rewards). So yeah, sure.

You don't deserve to get every reward just because you've logged into the game.Then it's good noone's asking for that, right?(hint: a strawman is a strawman)

Great. Then they can learn the mechanics and content if they want to get rewards for completing said content, right?(hint: you accidentally keep missing parts of my posts, so much for bringing up a "strawman")

Ah yes, I forgot that the legendary items are what "makes or breaks" the game for majority of the players.No, they are not.

Exactly, so stop pretending they are.

[some strawman argument about "players not being worthy"(???)]

Nobody ever said they're not worthy, not sure what you're talking about right now.It's just that -as you've said it yourself- the rewards are being Given out for actively playing the content. Yup, that's about it. Even if said content isn't up/down to your standards or wishes. You want rewards? Complete the content. You don't want to learn the content to get the rewards? You don't need to, it doesn't lock you out of anything, especially not out of some "long term engagement" for someone that refuses to learn new type of content in the first place. His (and apparently now yours as well) statement is just backwards. Learning new content supports long-term engagement, not the other way around.

You've already tried claiming that everyone should have "their endgame". The fact remains that everyone DO have their endgame and everyone is free to do what they want. Raids or legendary items have nothing to do with it. Stop diluting content because you don't like it, keep playing what you want instead.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Vilin.8056 said:The problem with easy mode is that people who don't raid will either only do it once for the story, or wouldn't bother with it at all.FF XIV example shows that it's not really true. You just need to do that content right.

Strike Missions has already proven such concept has failed at the casual level.Then perhaps we should try to think why they failed.

Furthermore, given the overall cost and effort to craft an legendary armor, the stat swapping feature isn't practical for players who doesn't care about WvW nor raiding in the first place. Only a very niche amount of players would appreciate this alteration and would probably ends up grudging for the many extra efforts required for not playing regular raids.In many ways it's not about actually pursuing the armor. It's about the feeling of exclusion. I know a number of players for whom it was an issue, even though (due to financial constraints) they never planned to actually make a set. What bothered them was that they weren't offered a choice. That Anet devs when introducing the armor, seemingly have forgotten about them. Or, worse, it's not that they've forgotten - they simply didn't care.

It's similar for me - i already got the whole envoy package, so theoretically the issue doesn't really affect me anymore, but i still have a problem with it, for that exact reason. I still feel as if this decision to place the only legendary armor set for PvE players beyond reach of most of them was a sign of how devs actually didn't give a kitten about the majority of their players. And it didn't even pay off, because the group they wanted to pander to turned out to be too small, and thus they ended up abandoning raid content anyway.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Astralporing.1957 said:That Anet devs when introducing the armor, seemingly have forgotten about them. Or, worse, it's not that they've forgotten - they simply didn't care.

Oh wow. the feelings of those poor players got hurt because they didn't get a new skin. Let me get this, Arenanet adding Legendary Armor in Raids exclusively, made some players feel forgotten or that the developers don't care about them. Because of a skin (and a so called gear tier that they won't use anyway)Now I wonder how players that get zero content for literal years would feel. You know, ANY content, something playable, something to DO, not a skin. And someone dares to say they feel neglected and abandoned because they didn't get legendary armor. Roll eyes.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:If you give something out for just logging into the game, it's not "long term engagement" or "long term goal".Giving out rewards for actively playing a content is not the same as giving them out "just for logging in into the game". Even if said content is not up to your standarts of "challenge".

Current iteration of raids is "content", people that want rewards for that content need to actively play through it -and if they need to

actively

learn mechanics to complete it then that's exactly what they need to do (instead of pushing to make it an interactive story, which no longer is the intended content with its rewards). So yeah, sure.The way certain rewards/reward types are tied to specific content is purely arbitrary. There's nothing saying that legendary armor

must

be tied to current raids, WvW and SPvP and to those three types of contents alone. That's just the way things are now, but, as introduction of legendary armor to WvW and SPvP has shown, "the way things are" does not need to hold forever.

You don't deserve to get every reward just because you've logged into the game.Then it's good noone's asking for that, right?(hint: a strawman is a strawman)

Great. Then they can learn the mechanics and content if they want to get rewards for completing said content, right?Right. Because there's absolutely nothing in between those two extremes...

No, again, unlike what you try to claim, not wanting to play raids is not the same as asking for rewards being given out just for logging. There's a whole game in between those two points, if you haven't noticed.

(hint: you accidentally keep missing parts of my posts, so much for bringing up a "strawman")Not addressing some things you said (or addressing them, but just cutting up some parts for brevity) is not the same as bringing up fictional arguments about "getting rewards just for logging in the game" that noone actually made.

Ah yes, I forgot that the legendary items are what "makes or breaks" the game for majority of the players.No, they are not.

Exactly, so stop pretending they are.I never pretended they are. You keep missing the point again. To refresh your memory - from the very beginning of my discussion with you, it was never about legendaries themselves - it was always about your way of thinking that assumes that there's some "endgame content", and that it's the only content that is worthy of "endgame rewards".

And it is that attitude, and trying to force that attitude on the game, that to many players can be a "make or break" point.

[some

strawman

argument about "players not being worthy"(???)]

Nobody ever said they're not worthy, not sure what you're talking about right now.Then why did you say that it makes no sense to you to have "endgame" rewards in easy mode raids? Wasn't that exactly because you considered this type of content (and people that might like that type of content) to not be worthy of certain class of rewards? All your other statements also clearly show your contempt for this type of content, and those players.

It's just that -as you've said it yourself- the rewards are being

Given out for actively playing the content

. Yup, that's about it.

Even if said content isn't up/down to your standards or wishes

. You want rewards? Complete the content.Then why did you say having legendary rewards for easy mode makes no sense to you? If such rewards were being tied to that content, and people would be obtaining them for actively playing that content, where's the problem exactly that causes it to make no sense to you? What makes you think that some types of content should not be tied to some types of rewards?Legendary armor was originally raid only, but later on was extended to two other types of content. Do you see that as a problem? If so, why? if not, why extending that reward to one more type of content would suddenly be unacceptable?

You don't want to learn the content to get the rewards? You don't need to, it doesn't lock you out of anything,

especially

not out of some "long term engagement" for someone that

refuses to learn new type of content

in the first place. His (and apparently now yours as well) statement is just backwards. Learning new content supports long-term engagement, not the other way around.

It's not "learning new content". It's "liking" new content. You can't really "learn" to like something - you either like it or not. And so it happens that most players do nto like raids. In fact, even a lot of raiders don't really like them.And no, playing a content you do not like does not support long-term engagement. It supports only two things - diminishment of fun, and faster burnout. And those two things happen to work to

lessen

any engagement a player might have.

You've already tried claiming that everyone should have "their endgame". The fact remains that everyone DO have their endgame and everyone is free to do what they want. Raids or legendary items have nothing to do with it. Stop diluting content because you don't like it, keep playing what you want instead.That's factually untrue. Some endgames

are

locked out from some players unless they will be playing what they

do not

want to play. You just happen to not be one of the players in that situation.

[Astralporing.1957]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:That Anet devs when introducing the armor, seemingly

have forgotten about them

. Or, worse, it's not that they've forgotten - they simply

didn't care

.

Oh wow. the feelings of those poor players got hurt because they didn't get a new skin. Let me get this, Arenanet adding Legendary Armor in Raids exclusively, made some players feel

forgotten

or that the developers

don't care about them

. Because of a skin (and a so called gear tier that they won't use anyway)Now I wonder how players that get zero content for literal years would feel. You know, ANY content, something playable, something to DO, not a skin. And someone dares to say they feel neglected and abandoned because they didn't get legendary armor. Roll eyes.Sure, the players that get literal zero content for years have every right to feel neglected as well. Being neglected is not fun. So, now all of us can feel the same way. I'm sure that it makes the game overall better [/sarcasm]But seriously, two wrongs don't make a right.

[Vilin.8056]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:The problem with easy mode is that people who don't raid will either only do it once for the story, or wouldn't bother with it at all.FF XIV example shows that it's not really true. You just need to do that content right.Whatever happens in FFXIV is irrelevant since they adapted a different system in class progression, and Guild Wars 2 already shown results of easy raids.

Strike Missions has already proven such concept has failed at the casual level.Then perhaps we should try to think

why

they failed.Exactly, which has been explained in my previous response, there are consequences in GW2's freedom of class role creation that we all know of.

Furthermore, given the overall cost and effort to craft an legendary armor, the stat swapping feature isn't practical for players who doesn't care about WvW nor raiding in the first place. Only a very niche amount of players would appreciate this alteration and would probably ends up grudging for the many extra efforts required for not playing regular raids.In many ways it's not about actually pursuing the armor. It's about the

feeling of exclusion

. I know a number of players for whom it was an issue, even though (due to financial constraints) they never planned to actually make a set. What bothered them was that they weren't offered a choice. That Anet devs when introducing the armor, seemingly

have forgotten about them

. Or, worse, it's not that they've forgotten - they simply

didn't care

.It was when WvW and PvP players were excluded. That's no longer an issue now.As for PvE, access of contents has always been open to all players, it's the players who deny contents made the choice upon themselves and the exclusion wouldn't be just Legendary armors alone, this has always been true in the past as it is today. No matter if you agree on this or not, it's still too niche of a demand for a major content overhaul.

It's similar for me - i already got the whole envoy package, so theoretically the issue doesn't really affect me anymore, but i still have a problem with it, for that exact reason. I still feel as if this decision to place the only legendary armor set for PvE players beyond reach of most of them was a sign of how devs actually didn't give a kitten about the majority of their players. And it didn't even pay off, because the group they wanted to pander to turned out to be too small, and thus they ended up abandoning raid content anyway.When 80% of the playerbase are either inactive or semi inactive, and majority of them hasn't even done their living story, we are all minority players, and for these 80% majority of sub 1.4k ap players legendary armor aren't even a beginning of a concern.

While you still holding a grudge about legendary armors, most of us already moved past 2016.The newer system of presets is simply the better solution, it's far more practical, safe and cost effective. I own all 3 sets of Perfected Envoy legendary armors, yet I too moved on with multiple individual ascended with different skin ID on gear slots because it's a faster and safer way to stat swap. But even that systems has yet to be appreciated by the majority of casual players, let alone the complexity of stat swapping a whole set of legendary armros.