Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Brynioch.1873]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Hume.2876 said:WoW had more players in Burning Crusade then they did after implementing easy mode raids. ez-mode raiding is a cost savings tactic. It's not a pure winner with regards to the player base.

Fractals is a good example of multiple mode content and the problem is its less fun to do a fractal at higher difficulty then it is to do new Fractal. But wouldn't you rather have 100 different fractals? Then 'versions' of the same thing? I know I would..

Making things less fun is a dangerous game.. It does save development time and money but can drive people out of the game. Aspirational content is very important for an MMO - the runaway success of WoW with its brutal raids in Vanilla and BC is proof of that. Let everyone experience that aspirational content - and you will lose not just the high end customers but your most IMPORTANT customers. The guys that many players want to be like..(even if realistically they know they don't have the time).

This is the problem WoW had after implementing easy mode raids despite making a BILLION dollars a quarter - they pretended they were too 'poor' to implement exclusive content for different difficulty levels. Now small time GW2 has an excuse to make 25 instead of 100 fractals but don't think its how players would want it in a perfect world..

Rather then create ez mode raids they should fix the dungeons such that they have more of a purpose.. Dungeons are kinda broken - but I know alot of active raiders. So clearly the issue is not raiding..

I played an MMO that each Dungeon had at least 4 Difficulty Modes, and Every Raid had at least 3. With upwards to 10 difficulty modes for Dungeons and 6 (or more now) for Raids.

Made the game great, people could do teaching/training/short-man runs on the easier settings, and opt for better chances by running the harder stuff. For Crafting Dungeons (That would be what GW2 has, where there is no rare named Raid Loot, it's all just mats and you make your own gear), the harder the difficulty the more mats dropped, so it was always worth it to do the hardest difficulty you could.

That system worked amazing, and kept raids alive and well with a constant cycle of fresh blood doing them, and got most of the game involved in them, so I have no idea what everyone is crying about. To me it seems foolish not to do this kind thing as I have seen and played for many years it's successful implementation.

What ya all crying about?

You could tell use the name so we can paint a picture for ourselves. Did this game had notable open world content?Low man runs are already possible. Economy is on an all-time low right now, increasing the rewards would kill it further. Lower rewards would make an easy mode useless with zero replayability.

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Miellyn.6847" said:Thank god that raids in GW2 are around normal difficulty in other games so the majority could play it if they actually wanted.The majority in other games actually does not even play instanced content without automatic matchmaking anymore. (LFR is far far away from 'normal')

But they are

not

are the "normal" scale of difficulty for GW2, which is the issue.There is no normal scale for difficulty. PoF and HoT are both harder in open world than core GW2. Difficulty is ramping up for a while now even in open world.

Difficulty scales are not more content.

Of course they are. Not for the people already playing raids, obviously, but for the around 75%+ of the population that don't, it would be new content, since the raids do not currently exist to them in any meaningful way.

Citication needed for your number. Otherwise not an argument.

Yes of course it is self interest. But same goes for the easy mode crowd unless you want an easy mode in the game and never plan to play it.

Except that the "easy mode" crowd is only acting to

expand

the options available, not to

limit

the options available. We aren't saying

"you

can't play hard raids," we're saying "why can't

we

play easier ones?"

Don't try to paint them as equivalent positions.

It comes with a cost and the current raiders will pay it without any benefit. You still didn't present a way where raids with an easy mode without increasing the already long development time.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Miellyn.6847" said:There is no normal scale for difficulty. PoF and HoT are both harder in open world than core GW2. Difficulty is ramping up for a while now even in open world.

Yes, and at a cost to the community, but even so the raids are a significant step above that, for the most part. That's why people are upset, it's ruining the curve.

Citication needed for your number. Otherwise not an argument.

What, the 75%? I've seen several polls about raiding here and on the reddit, and in none of them have "regular raiders" made up more than 25% of the responses, usually far less. These aren't entirely scientific, but their biases would skew in the raid's favor, so a 25% response is more likely to translate to a reality of 10% than 30%.

Even here, on the official forum instanced content category, this poll's had 51% saying that an easy mode would be a good thing, and only 30% satisfied with the existing version. The "do you raid" poll said only 21% did so "regularly," 12% "sometimes," and at least 57% were flat "no" of some variety, and again, this is in a location where it's much more likely that most players would enjoy raiding.

It comes with a cost and the current raiders will pay it without any benefit.

Yes, but a relatively minor cost, and the current raiders should be happy to pay it if it means more players enjoying the game. It's not all about you.

You still didn't present a way where raids with an easy mode without increasing the already long development time.

Easy, they just don't slow raid development as they work on this feature. Source the manhours elsewhere.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Miellyn.6847" said:There is no normal scale for difficulty. PoF and HoT are both harder in open world than core GW2. Difficulty is ramping up for a while now even in open world.

Yes, and at a cost to the community, but even so the raids are a significant step above that, for the most part. That's why people are upset, it's ruining the curve.

Citication needed for your number. Otherwise not an argument.

What, the 75%? I've seen several polls about raiding here and on the reddit, and in none of them have "regular raiders" made up more than 25% of the responses, usually far less. These aren't entirely scientific, but their biases would skew in the raid's favor, so a 25% response is more likely to translate to a reality of 10% than 30%.

Even here, on the official forum instanced content category, this poll's had 51% saying that an easy mode would be a good thing, and only 30% satisfied with the existing version. The "do you raid" poll said only 21% did so "regularly," 12% "sometimes," and at least 57% were flat "no" of some variety, and again, this is in a location where it's much more likely that most players would enjoy raiding.

As long as there is no 'I don't care about raids' option all polls are completely useless to this topic.

It comes with a cost and the current raiders will pay it without any benefit.

Yes, but a relatively minor cost, and the current raiders should be happy to pay it if it means more players enjoying the game. It's not all about you.You don't know the cost at all.

You still didn't present a way where raids with an easy mode without increasing the already long development time.

Easy, they just don't slow raid development as they work on this feature. Source the manhours elsewhere.

So either LS or next expansion. I don't think this will end well for ArenaNet.If you would actually programm for a living as you claimed you would have a slightly more realistic view on that topic.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Miellyn.6847" said:As long as there is no 'I don't care about raids' option all polls are completely useless to this topic.

Why is "no, I don't play raids" not a good enough answer? If you're implying that there's a huge market of people who care so little about raids that they wouldn't even mark "no" on a "do you raid" poll, then that's fine, but it means that even more than 57% of the players never raid.

You don't know the cost at all.

And yet you insist that it must be the end of the world.

So either LS or next expansion. I don't think this will end well for ArenaNet.If you would actually programm for a living as you claimed you would have a slightly more realistic view on that topic.

It's because I program for a living that I do have a realistic view on this. It would take time, maybe more time than I expect, if their code is particularly poorly structured, but whatever time it takes would be worth it, and they have the resources to make it happen without taking resources away from anything that players would miss, that means nothing that would disrupt the cadence of known content. They had time to improve the graphics of GW1, they have time to work on this.

[Feanor.2358]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:You're in no position to judge that for any other person. If someone says the game is not easy and not accessible, he's right.

Following the very same logic, if I say the game is easy and accessible, I'm right. Now what?

But, you are only speaking for yourself.. No one else.

You are in no place to say how hard or the easy the game is for anyone else. If someone else says the game is to too hard and inaccessible, they are right as well, and you need to accept that.

Oh? And how is that my opinion matters less than theirs? It's precisely the same - personal opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. One is not any more valid than the other, meaning neither can be used as a meaningful argument for anything.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Feanor.2358" said:Oh? And how is that my opinion matters less than theirs? It's precisely the same - personal opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. One is not any more valid than the other, meaning neither can be used as a meaningful argument for anything.

No, meaning that both are important feedback. And if your feedback is "this is fine." then that's great, that's your feedback, and they don't need to do anything to improve the game for you.

If someone else's feedback is "this is too hard, I'd prefer an easier version," then that is their feedback, and your feedback doesn't counteract their feedback, because whether or not you are fine, they remain not-fine, and ANet has to consider whether maybe they want to do something about that.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Miellyn.6847" said:As long as there is no 'I don't care about raids' option all polls are completely useless to this topic.

Why is "no, I don't play raids" not a good enough answer? If you're implying that there's a huge market of people who care so little about raids that they wouldn't even mark "no" on a "do you raid" poll, then that's fine, but it means that even

more

than 57% of the players never raid.

There are many factors why people don't raid. Easy mode is just one of them and doesn't solve everything. People who don't care about raids also don't care if an easy mode never happens and would be against it if it slows down LS.

You don't know the cost at all.

And yet you insist that it

must

be the end of the world.

So either LS or next expansion. I don't think this will end well for ArenaNet.If you would actually programm for a living as you claimed you would have a slightly more realistic view on that topic.

It's because I program for a living that I do have a realistic view on this. It would take time, maybe more time than I expect, if their code is particularly poorly structured, but whatever time it takes would be worth it, and they have the resources to make it happen without taking resources away from anything that players would miss, that means nothing that would disrupt the cadence of known content. They had time to improve the graphics of GW1, they have time to work on this.

There is a slight difference between developing a new game and adding features to an existing game while also maintaining content updates.If they would have ressources to realise this without slowing anything down would mean they have a spare team just sitting there and waiting.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:Oh? And how is that my opinion matters less than theirs? It's precisely the same - personal opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. One is not any more valid than the other, meaning neither can be used as a meaningful argument for anything.

No, meaning that

both

are important feedback. And if your feedback is "this is fine." then that's great, that's your feedback, and they don't need to do anything to improve the game for you.

If someone else's feedback is "this is too hard, I'd prefer an easier version," then that is their feedback, and your feedback doesn't

counteract

their feedback, because whether or not you are fine, they remain not-fine, and ANet has to consider whether maybe they want to do something about that.

Actually both are unimportant, because they only represent the opinion of a single customer, and that is too tiny a fraction. Deciding to do something about something else requires you too look at a much bigger scale and consider the feelings of much larger customer groups. Squabbling over the forums does very little in this regard.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Miellyn.6847 said:There are many factors why people don't raid. Easy mode is just one of them and doesn't solve everything. People who don't care about raids also don't care if an easy mode never happens and would be against it if it slows down LS.

Probably, but we aren't talking about them right now, and they probably would never notice that anything had happened.

There is a slight difference between developing a new game and adding features to an existing game while also maintaining content updates.If they would have ressources to realise this without slowing anything down would mean they have a spare team just sitting there and waiting.

It means that teams come on and off projects, and the amount of people that would be needed for a project like this should be VERY small relative to the teams needed to actually produce new content for the game, so there would likely be places in the schedule where this work could be fit without actually inconveniencing anything.

@"Feanor.2358" said:Actually both are unimportant, because they only represent the opinion of a single customer, and that is too tiny a fraction. Deciding to do something about something else requires you too look at a much bigger scale and consider the feelings of much larger customer groups. Squabbling over the forums does very little in this regard.

If you believe that to be the case, when why do you spend so much time arguing against any effort to implement easy mode raids? If you've been right about any point you've made, that it would "take too much work," or "they'd never want to do it," or "not enough people care," or "they don't care what people on the forum say," any of it, then they would never implement them anyway, and every word you've said has been a complete waste of your time. So why do you keep it up, if not because you believe that they just might do it?

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:Actually both are unimportant, because they only represent the opinion of a single customer, and that is too tiny a fraction. Deciding to do something about something else requires you too look at a much bigger scale and consider the feelings of much larger customer groups. Squabbling over the forums does very little in this regard.

If you believe that to be the case, when why do you spend so much time arguing

against

any effort to implement easy mode raids? If you've been right about

any

point you've made, that it would "take too much work," or "they'd never want to do it," or "not enough people care," or "they don't care what people on the forum say," any of it, then they would never implement them anyway, and every word you've said has been a complete waste of your time. So why do you keep it up, if not because

you

believe that they just might do it?

Because I enjoy disputes and refuting flawed arguments. It would be a waste of time indeed, had I not enjoyed the process itself.

[STIHL.2489]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:You're in no position to judge that for any other person. If someone says the game is not easy and not accessible, he's right.

Following the very same logic, if I say the game is easy and accessible, I'm right. Now what?

But, you are only speaking for yourself.. No one else.

You are in no place to say how hard or the easy the game is for anyone else. If someone else says the game is to too hard and inaccessible, they are right as well, and you need to accept that.

Oh? And how is that my opinion matters less than theirs? It's precisely the same - personal opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. One is not any more valid than the other, meaning neither can be used as a meaningful argument for anything.

When you Impose it on others.. is your opinion on the matter.. no longer matters.

I have no goal to take away your difficult raids, my goal is to add raids that are a lower skill level. So I am not imposing anything upon you, in fact I am expanding the game making it better for all, but you in a vain egotistical manner want to restrict the game, and feel the need to impose upon others.

When you do that,,. No, your opinion on the matter is not equally valid.

[STIHL.2489]

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@"STIHL.2489" said:I played an MMO that each Dungeon had at least 4 Difficulty Modes, and Every Raid had at least 3. With upwards to 10 difficulty modes for Dungeons and 6 (or more now) for Raids.

Made the game great, people could do teaching/training/short-man runs on the easier settings, and opt for better chances by running the harder stuff. For Crafting Dungeons (That would be what GW2 has, where there is no rare named Raid Loot, it's all just mats and you make your own gear), the harder the difficulty the more mats dropped, so it was always worth it to do the hardest difficulty you could.

That system worked amazing, and kept raids alive and well with a constant cycle of fresh blood doing them, and got most of the game involved in them, so I have no idea what everyone is crying about. To me it seems foolish not to do this kind thing as I have seen and played for many years it's successful implementation.

What ya all crying about?

You could tell use the name so we can paint a picture for ourselves. Did this game had notable open world content?

Check out Dungeons and Dragons Online. and learn what Dungeons and Raids could be, see what Done Right instance based Raids really are, as opposed to the... umm well.. lets say, after playing that game for years, I was vastly underwhelmed by the Dungeons and Raids in GW2. It's limited F2P so you can try it out, realize it's nowhere near as cake-walk as GW2, But, if you do go for it, and make it the first Raid, tell Sor'jek I said "Hi"

Just as a point of Reference, I left that game after they nerfed Raid Loot, and lost all trust in them to respect my game time and investment after that, but, that does not change the quality of the content itself.

It's quite different then GW2, and it's been a few years since I played it, so I am not sure what the community is like now, but no doubt a hard core raider like yourself should have no issues with it.

I have heard they added more difficulty levels, like "Nightmare" which as it's own tiers, like Nightmare-1 to 4, or something. But that was put in after I left, so no idea about that.

[zealex.9410]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Miellyn.6847" said:There is no normal scale for difficulty. PoF and HoT are both harder in open world than core GW2. Difficulty is ramping up for a while now even in open world.

Yes, and at a cost to the community, but even so the raids are a significant step above that, for the most part. That's why people are upset, it's ruining the curve.

Citication needed for your number. Otherwise not an argument.

What, the 75%? I've seen several polls about raiding here and on the reddit, and in none of them have "regular raiders" made up more than 25% of the responses, usually far less. These aren't entirely scientific, but their biases would skew in the raid's favor, so a 25% response is more likely to translate to a reality of 10% than 30%.

Even here, on the official forum instanced content category, this poll's had 51% saying that an easy mode would be a good thing, and only 30% satisfied with the existing version. The "do you raid" poll said only 21% did so "regularly," 12% "sometimes," and at least 57% were flat "no" of some variety, and again, this is in a location where it's much more likely that most players would enjoy raiding.

It comes with a cost and the current raiders will pay it without any benefit.

Yes, but a relatively minor cost, and the current raiders should be happy to pay it if it means more players enjoying the game. It's not all about you.

You still didn't present a way where raids with an easy mode without increasing the already long development time.

Easy, they just don't slow raid development as they work on this feature. Source the manhours elsewhere.

The latest poll on these forums had a total of around 30%+ combined of ppl that raid alot and ppl that raid some times. It also had alot of ppl picking the option "something else" of which alot asked if training raids count and the op said no. Another easy 5-10%~ of ppl that do training runs which yes, is raidind.

[Feanor.2358]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:You're in no position to judge that for any other person. If someone says the game is not easy and not accessible, he's right.

Following the very same logic, if I say the game is easy and accessible, I'm right. Now what?

But, you are only speaking for yourself.. No one else.

You are in no place to say how hard or the easy the game is for anyone else. If someone else says the game is to too hard and inaccessible, they are right as well, and you need to accept that.

Oh? And how is that my opinion matters less than theirs? It's precisely the same - personal opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. One is not any more valid than the other, meaning neither can be used as a meaningful argument for anything.

When you Impose it on others.. is your opinion on the matter.. no longer matters.

I have no goal to take away your difficult raids, my goal is to

add

raids that are a lower skill level. So I am not imposing anything upon you, in fact I am expanding the game making it better for all, but you in a vain egotistical manner want to restrict the game, and feel the need to impose upon others.

When you do that,,. No, your opinion on the matter is not equally valid.

Your goal is not a feature in a vacuum. You're disregarding all the effects you don't like. It doesn't mean they disappear. So yeah, you're trying to impose your opinion on others. Or rather, it's effects.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Hume.2876 said:WoW had more players in Burning Crusade then they did after implementing easy mode raids.Which point during BC? Which point after LFR? Is there any data supporting the theory that LFR caused population drop?(you might want to actually look at the numbers first. You'd see that the moment population started dropping does not corelate with introduction of LFR)

@Miellyn.6847 said:There is no normal scale for difficulty. PoF and HoT are both harder in open world than core GW2. Difficulty is ramping up for a while now even in open world.It had been ramping up, but if you haven't noticed PoF OW is significantly easier than in HoT.

@Miellyn.6847 said:It comes with a cost and the current raiders will pay it without any benefit.Just as casuals paid for raids without any benefits.

[STIHL.2489]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:You're in no position to judge that for any other person. If someone says the game is not easy and not accessible, he's right.

Following the very same logic, if I say the game is easy and accessible, I'm right. Now what?

But, you are only speaking for yourself.. No one else.

You are in no place to say how hard or the easy the game is for anyone else. If someone else says the game is to too hard and inaccessible, they are right as well, and you need to accept that.

Oh? And how is that my opinion matters less than theirs? It's precisely the same - personal opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. One is not any more valid than the other, meaning neither can be used as a meaningful argument for anything.

When you Impose it on others.. is your opinion on the matter.. no longer matters.

I have no goal to take away your difficult raids, my goal is to

add

raids that are a lower skill level. So I am not imposing anything upon you, in fact I am expanding the game making it better for all, but you in a vain egotistical manner want to restrict the game, and feel the need to impose upon others.

When you do that,,. No, your opinion on the matter is not equally valid.

Your goal is not a feature in a vacuum. You're disregarding all the effects you don't like. It doesn't mean they disappear. So yeah, you're trying to impose your opinion on others. Or rather, it's effects.

Nope.

I am not in any way telling you the game is too hard for you, or that you need to change the way you enjoy the game to make me happy, you can keep playing as you always have.

You on the other hand are telling me I need to change the way I play and enjoy this game to accommodate you.

That makes you imposing your belief on others.

Quite frankly if easy mode raids would kill raids as you know them today, then no one likes raids as you know them today. If they enjoyed them, then all that would happen is more people would play them, not some cultural shift in who played what.

and that's a fact.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Hume.2876 said:WoW had more players in Burning Crusade then they did after implementing easy mode raids.Which point during BC? Which point after LFR? Is there

any

data supporting the theory that LFR caused population drop?(you might want to actually look at the numbers first. You'd see that the moment population started dropping does not corelate with introduction of LFR)

@Miellyn.6847 said:There is no normal scale for difficulty. PoF and HoT are both harder in open world than core GW2. Difficulty is ramping up for a while now even in open world.It

had

been ramping up, but if you haven't noticed PoF OW is significantly easier than in HoT.

@Miellyn.6847 said:It comes with a cost and the current raiders will pay it without any benefit.Just as casuals paid for raids without any benefits.

Because there were too many complains from the typcial OW player. Those who won't touch a raid even with easy mode.

Bad players can't play raids. Casuals can. It's time people stop confusing those two.

[Feanor.2358]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:You're in no position to judge that for any other person. If someone says the game is not easy and not accessible, he's right.

Following the very same logic, if I say the game is easy and accessible, I'm right. Now what?

But, you are only speaking for yourself.. No one else.

You are in no place to say how hard or the easy the game is for anyone else. If someone else says the game is to too hard and inaccessible, they are right as well, and you need to accept that.

Oh? And how is that my opinion matters less than theirs? It's precisely the same - personal opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. One is not any more valid than the other, meaning neither can be used as a meaningful argument for anything.

When you Impose it on others.. is your opinion on the matter.. no longer matters.

I have no goal to take away your difficult raids, my goal is to

add

raids that are a lower skill level. So I am not imposing anything upon you, in fact I am expanding the game making it better for all, but you in a vain egotistical manner want to restrict the game, and feel the need to impose upon others.

When you do that,,. No, your opinion on the matter is not equally valid.

Your goal is not a feature in a vacuum. You're disregarding all the effects you don't like. It doesn't mean they disappear. So yeah, you're trying to impose your opinion on others. Or rather, it's effects.

Nope.

I am not in any way telling you the game is too hard for you, or that you need to change the way you enjoy the game to make me happy, you can keep playing as you always have.

You on the other hand are telling me I need to change the way I play and enjoy this game to accommodate you.

That makes you imposing your belief on others.

Quite frankly if easy mode raids would kill raids as you know them today, then no one likes raids as you know them today. If they enjoyed them, then all that would happen is more people would play them, not some cultural shift in who played what.

and that's a fact.

The fact is this:

• I like how the game is now and you don't.
• If your proposed changes went through, you'd like how the game is and I won't.

It's symmetrical, exactly the same when regarded as a personal opinion.

[STIHL.2489]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:You're in no position to judge that for any other person. If someone says the game is not easy and not accessible, he's right.

Following the very same logic, if I say the game is easy and accessible, I'm right. Now what?

But, you are only speaking for yourself.. No one else.

You are in no place to say how hard or the easy the game is for anyone else. If someone else says the game is to too hard and inaccessible, they are right as well, and you need to accept that.

Oh? And how is that my opinion matters less than theirs? It's precisely the same - personal opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. One is not any more valid than the other, meaning neither can be used as a meaningful argument for anything.

When you Impose it on others.. is your opinion on the matter.. no longer matters.

I have no goal to take away your difficult raids, my goal is to

add

raids that are a lower skill level. So I am not imposing anything upon you, in fact I am expanding the game making it better for all, but you in a vain egotistical manner want to restrict the game, and feel the need to impose upon others.

When you do that,,. No, your opinion on the matter is not equally valid.

Your goal is not a feature in a vacuum. You're disregarding all the effects you don't like. It doesn't mean they disappear. So yeah, you're trying to impose your opinion on others. Or rather, it's effects.

Nope.

I am not in any way telling you the game is too hard for you, or that you need to change the way you enjoy the game to make me happy, you can keep playing as you always have.

You on the other hand are telling me I need to change the way I play and enjoy this game to accommodate you.

That makes you imposing your belief on others.

Quite frankly if easy mode raids would kill raids as you know them today, then no one likes raids as you know them today. If they enjoyed them, then all that would happen is more people would play them, not some cultural shift in who played what.

and that's a fact.

The fact is this:

• I like how the game is now and you don't.
• If your proposed changes went through, you'd like how the game is and I won't.

It's symmetrical, exactly the same when regarded as a personal opinion.

Why would you not like the change?

I would love to hear some reason that is not deplorably petty or painfully self serving shallow.

[Feanor.2358]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Ohoni.6057" said:You're in no position to judge that for any other person. If someone says the game is not easy and not accessible, he's right.

Following the very same logic, if I say the game is easy and accessible, I'm right. Now what?

But, you are only speaking for yourself.. No one else.

You are in no place to say how hard or the easy the game is for anyone else. If someone else says the game is to too hard and inaccessible, they are right as well, and you need to accept that.

Oh? And how is that my opinion matters less than theirs? It's precisely the same - personal opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. One is not any more valid than the other, meaning neither can be used as a meaningful argument for anything.

When you Impose it on others.. is your opinion on the matter.. no longer matters.

I have no goal to take away your difficult raids, my goal is to

add

raids that are a lower skill level. So I am not imposing anything upon you, in fact I am expanding the game making it better for all, but you in a vain egotistical manner want to restrict the game, and feel the need to impose upon others.

When you do that,,. No, your opinion on the matter is not equally valid.

Your goal is not a feature in a vacuum. You're disregarding all the effects you don't like. It doesn't mean they disappear. So yeah, you're trying to impose your opinion on others. Or rather, it's effects.

Nope.

I am not in any way telling you the game is too hard for you, or that you need to change the way you enjoy the game to make me happy, you can keep playing as you always have.

You on the other hand are telling me I need to change the way I play and enjoy this game to accommodate you.

That makes you imposing your belief on others.

Quite frankly if easy mode raids would kill raids as you know them today, then no one likes raids as you know them today. If they enjoyed them, then all that would happen is more people would play them, not some cultural shift in who played what.

and that's a fact.

The fact is this:

• I like how the game is now and you don't.
• If your proposed changes went through, you'd like how the game is and I won't.

It's symmetrical, exactly the same when regarded as a personal opinion.

Why would you not like the change?

I would love to hear some reason that is not deplorably petty or painfully self serving shallow.

No, you would not. I've given reasoning dozens of time now. You've ignored them all.

P.S. It doesn't matter if you agree with my perspective or not. You have no means of proving your own expectations. You have no statistics, no data, nothing. You have your own opinion, and that's all. See where this is going? You're basically saying "my opinion matters more because it agrees with my opinion".

[STIHL.2489]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:You're in no position to judge that for any other person. If someone says the game is not easy and not accessible, he's right.

Following the very same logic, if I say the game is easy and accessible, I'm right. Now what?

But, you are only speaking for yourself.. No one else.

You are in no place to say how hard or the easy the game is for anyone else. If someone else says the game is to too hard and inaccessible, they are right as well, and you need to accept that.

Oh? And how is that my opinion matters less than theirs? It's precisely the same - personal opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. One is not any more valid than the other, meaning neither can be used as a meaningful argument for anything.

When you Impose it on others.. is your opinion on the matter.. no longer matters.

I have no goal to take away your difficult raids, my goal is to

add

raids that are a lower skill level. So I am not imposing anything upon you, in fact I am expanding the game making it better for all, but you in a vain egotistical manner want to restrict the game, and feel the need to impose upon others.

When you do that,,. No, your opinion on the matter is not equally valid.

Your goal is not a feature in a vacuum. You're disregarding all the effects you don't like. It doesn't mean they disappear. So yeah, you're trying to impose your opinion on others. Or rather, it's effects.

Nope.

I am not in any way telling you the game is too hard for you, or that you need to change the way you enjoy the game to make me happy, you can keep playing as you always have.

You on the other hand are telling me I need to change the way I play and enjoy this game to accommodate you.

That makes you imposing your belief on others.

Quite frankly if easy mode raids would kill raids as you know them today, then no one likes raids as you know them today. If they enjoyed them, then all that would happen is more people would play them, not some cultural shift in who played what.

and that's a fact.

The fact is this:

• I like how the game is now and you don't.
• If your proposed changes went through, you'd like how the game is and I won't.

It's symmetrical, exactly the same when regarded as a personal opinion.

Why would you not like the change?

I would love to hear some reason that is not deplorably petty or painfully self serving shallow.

No, you would not. I've given reasoning dozens of time now. You've ignored them all.

again.. that is not deplorably petty or painfully self serving and shallow.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"zealex.9410" said:The latest poll on these forums had a total of around 30%+ combined of ppl that raid alot and ppl that raid some times. It also had alot of ppl picking the option "something else" of which alot asked if training raids count and the op said no. Another easy 5-10%~ of ppl that do training runs which yes, is raidind.

But again, a poll listed ON the raiding forum, so obviously one that would skew heavily toward players interested in that sort of thing, so if 30% indicated that they raid occasionally, that was the cap, not the baseline.

@Feanor.2358 said:Your goal is not a feature in a vacuum. You're disregarding all the effects you don't like. It doesn't mean they disappear. So yeah, you're trying to impose your opinion on others. Or rather, it's effects.

You're doing the same about the inclusion of raids in the first place, of course.

@Feanor.2358 said:The fact is this:

• I like how the game is now and you don't.
• If your proposed changes went through, you'd like how the game is and I won't.

It's symmetrical, exactly the same when regarded as a personal opinion.

No, it's not symmetrical. We don't like the game how it is now because it's lacking something we would like to enjoy playing. You would not like it if it changed because you would be upset that we are happy playing our new mode. You cannot frame that as a symmetrical argument. It's like if you had a burger, and another person did not, and he were given a burger, you claim that it would be a "symmetrical argument" to be as upset at him getting that burger as he was to not have one, even though in either case you'd still have your own burger.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"zealex.9410" said:The latest poll on these forums had a total of around 30%+ combined of ppl that raid alot and ppl that raid some times. It also had alot of ppl picking the option "something else" of which alot asked if training raids count and the op said no. Another easy 5-10%~ of ppl that do training runs which yes, is raidind.

But again, a poll listed ON the raiding forum, so obviously one that would skew heavily toward players interested in that sort of thing, so if 30% indicated that they raid occasionally, that was the cap, not the baseline.

@Feanor.2358 said:Your goal is not a feature in a vacuum. You're disregarding all the effects you don't like. It doesn't mean they disappear. So yeah, you're trying to impose your opinion on others. Or rather, it's effects.

You're doing the same about the inclusion of raids in the first place, of course.

@Feanor.2358 said:The fact is this:

• I like how the game is now and you don't.
• If your proposed changes went through, you'd like how the game is and I won't.

It's symmetrical, exactly the same when regarded as a personal opinion.

No, it's not symmetrical. We don't like the game how it is now because it's lacking something we would like to enjoy playing. You would not like it if it changed because you would be

upset

that we are

happy

playing our new mode. You cannot frame that as a symmetrical argument. It's like if you had a burger, and another person did not, and he were given a burger, you claim that it would be a "symmetrical argument" to be as upset at him getting that burger as he was to not have one, even though in either case you'd still have your own burger.

Please don't speculate how or why I would feel. You're way off. Not to mention I have repeatedly stated clearly, in more or less correct English, what I think. Again, it is irrelevant if you agree, or even if I am right. Since you don't have any real data to back your position, you cannot possibly expect anyone to take your own opinion as more important or valid than their own. You're only backing up your opinion with your opinion and somehow decide it has some greater value. Come on...

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"zealex.9410" said:The latest poll on these forums had a total of around 30%+ combined of ppl that raid alot and ppl that raid some times. It also had alot of ppl picking the option "something else" of which alot asked if training raids count and the op said no. Another easy 5-10%~ of ppl that do training runs which yes, is raidind.

But again, a poll listed ON the raiding forum, so obviously one that would skew heavily toward players interested in that sort of thing, so if 30% indicated that they raid occasionally, that was the cap, not the baseline.

@Feanor.2358 said:Your goal is not a feature in a vacuum. You're disregarding all the effects you don't like. It doesn't mean they disappear. So yeah, you're trying to impose your opinion on others. Or rather, it's effects.

You're doing the same about the inclusion of raids in the first place, of course.

@Feanor.2358 said:The fact is this:

• I like how the game is now and you don't.
• If your proposed changes went through, you'd like how the game is and I won't.

It's symmetrical, exactly the same when regarded as a personal opinion.

No, it's not symmetrical. We don't like the game how it is now because it's lacking something we would like to enjoy playing. You would not like it if it changed because you would be

upset

that we are

happy

playing our new mode. You cannot frame that as a symmetrical argument. It's like if you had a burger, and another person did not, and he were given a burger, you claim that it would be a "symmetrical argument" to be as upset at him getting that burger as he was to not have one, even though in either case you'd still have your own burger.

Please don't speculate how or why I would feel. You're way off. Not to mention I have repeatedly stated clearly, in more or less correct English, what I think. Again, it is irrelevant if you agree, or even if I am right. Since you don't have any real data to back your position, you cannot possibly expect anyone to take your own opinion as more important or valid than their own. You're only backing up your opinion with your opinion and somehow decide it has some greater value. Come on...

Again, I don't claim that my opinion is more valid than anyone else's. It doesn't need to be more valid than anyone else's to justify developing an easy mode. You having the opinion that you would not like an easy mode does not counteract my opinion that there should be one, they are just two distinct viewpoints. If I say chocolate is good and you say chocolate is bad, the net result is not that chocolate is neutral, it's that some people like chocolate, and if chocolate were available, some people would eat it, and other people wouldn't, which is fine.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"zealex.9410" said:The latest poll on these forums had a total of around 30%+ combined of ppl that raid alot and ppl that raid some times. It also had alot of ppl picking the option "something else" of which alot asked if training raids count and the op said no. Another easy 5-10%~ of ppl that do training runs which yes, is raidind.

But again, a poll listed ON the raiding forum, so obviously one that would skew heavily toward players interested in that sort of thing, so if 30% indicated that they raid occasionally, that was the cap, not the baseline.

@Feanor.2358 said:Your goal is not a feature in a vacuum. You're disregarding all the effects you don't like. It doesn't mean they disappear. So yeah, you're trying to impose your opinion on others. Or rather, it's effects.

You're doing the same about the inclusion of raids in the first place, of course.

@Feanor.2358 said:The fact is this:

• I like how the game is now and you don't.
• If your proposed changes went through, you'd like how the game is and I won't.

It's symmetrical, exactly the same when regarded as a personal opinion.

No, it's not symmetrical. We don't like the game how it is now because it's lacking something we would like to enjoy playing. You would not like it if it changed because you would be

upset

that we are

happy

playing our new mode. You cannot frame that as a symmetrical argument. It's like if you had a burger, and another person did not, and he were given a burger, you claim that it would be a "symmetrical argument" to be as upset at him getting that burger as he was to not have one, even though in either case you'd still have your own burger.

Please don't speculate how or why I would feel. You're way off. Not to mention I have repeatedly stated clearly, in more or less correct English, what I think. Again, it is irrelevant if you agree, or even if I am right. Since you don't have any real data to back your position, you cannot possibly expect anyone to take your own opinion as more important or valid than their own. You're only backing up your opinion with your opinion and somehow decide it has some greater value. Come on...

Again, I don't claim that my opinion is more valid than anyone else's. It doesn't need to be more valid than anyone else's to justify developing an easy mode. You having the opinion that you would not like an easy mode does not counteract my opinion that there should be one, they are just two distinct viewpoints. If I say chocolate is good and you say chocolate is bad, the net result is not that chocolate is neutral, it's that some people like chocolate, and if chocolate were available, some people would eat it, and other people wouldn't, which is fine.

this isn't about opinion, In fact:

1) the majority of players in GW2 do not play Raids in its current form, they do play 5 man instances in its current format - theres are obviously issues going on here a) elitism and b) the must have restrictive builds/try/wipe/try/wipe/try/wipe/try/wipe... gameplay style.2) It has been proven in all the other big AAA mmorpg with raids that the majority will lap up normal mode raids and that the amount of players playing normal will vastly outstrip the niche playing the hardest difficulty.

Its the equivalent to members of a sports club that requires regular attendance and a high level of commitment objecting to a club being opened in the area with less exclusive rules and standards, for no other reason than they would feel less special in their club.

Acid test, if anet released a normal mode raid tomorrow what would the impact be?

Existing raiding impacted - no.New content for anyone including the majority of the player base has new content - yes.