Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Ohoni.6057]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Ohoni.6057" said:Well then, regardless of context, they would be misusing the word, and should use a different word instead to convey their point.

Don't get so fixated on the word used. It's the principle that matters, getting the same rewards without any kind of effort, that's what everyone means with "free". Like the examples of PVP and WVW rewards I gave. You can get the rewards by actively playing the content, or you can get them the "free way".

I'm afraid that I have to be fixated on the word used when the word used is inaccurate and prejudicial. "Free" has a meaning that does not apply to anything anyone is asking for here. Calling it "free" is inaccurate to the position being stated, however much you want to equivocate over it.

You say it would take "significant effort" but honestly, some of the suggestions in that thread do make it a "no effort" deal. Like nerfing VG damage by 80% so he doesn't do any damage anymore. That's like removing Vale Guardian from the Vale Guardian fight which doesn't make much sense.

Who recommended that?

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:I think when someone uses the word "free" in this context is something similar to standing still and auto-attacking,

Well then, regardless of context, they would be misusing the word, and should use a different word instead to convey their point.

You know, I've always found arguing over semantics to be really cheap. The point made is pretty clear. If you're choosing to misunderstand it in order to be able to criticize it, that already tells me enough about your stance in the debate.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Ohoni.6057" said:Calling it "free" is inaccurate to the position being stated, however much you want to equivocate over it.

I gave you the reason behind using the word free. Would you like to replace free with effortless? Or which other word would you find more appropriate? The word used is really beside the point.

You say it would take "significant effort" but honestly, some of the suggestions in that thread do make it a "no effort" deal. Like nerfing VG damage by 80% so he doesn't do any damage anymore. That's like removing Vale Guardian from the Vale Guardian fight which doesn't make much sense.

Who recommended that?

Around here (it's 70% not 80%):https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/497860/#Comment_497860

But does it really matter? All I'm saying is that a discussion on the actual mechanics is much more important than a vague "it would still require effort", the how you will do that is much more important than stating it will be like that.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Feanor.2358" said:You know, I've always found arguing over semantics to be really cheap.

I agree, so let's stop using the term "free" to refer to things that are not free, and the conversation ends. It is an open insult to other players to continue using the term.

@"maddoctor.2738" said:I gave you the reason behind using the word free. Would you like to replace free with effortless? Or which other word would you find more appropriate?

No, because that would be equally inaccurate. "Low skill," certainly. Not free, not effortless.

The word used is really beside the point.

If words had no meaning, then why would anyone use them?

Around here (it's 70% not 80%):

Oh, that's Skyper. He's not exactly an advocate for easy modes, he was throwing out some options, not all of which I agree with, but at least he was engaging in the dialog.

But does it really matter? All I'm saying is that a discussion on the actual mechanics is much more important than a vague "it would still require effort", the how you will do that is much more important than stating it will be like that.

I agree, and when there are discussions on mechanics, I participate, but when discussing "should we even have these things at all," I want it to be clear what we actually are discussing, that the goal is NOT "free," that it is NOT "effortless." that it would be easier than the current version, but that it would not be easier than most content in the game which already provides significant rewards. So while it would be easier to complete than the current raids, it would not be "easy" by the standards of most of the content in the game, it would be in line with that content.

I'm sorry for believing that the opposition to this can be better, that they can make their case without resorting to strawmanning their opponents.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:You know, I've always found arguing over semantics to be really cheap.

I agree, so let's stop using the term "free" to refer to things that are not free, and the conversation ends. It is an open insult to other players to continue using the term.

You obviously don't. The word is irrelevant, the intent is clear, yet you're still arguing over it instead of addressing the actual point. I'm just pointing it out so you know you're not fooling anyone.

[Astralporing.1957]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Ohoni.6057" said:Really, it's meaningless always, because it either is free (ie, "give me that thing for

literally

nothing"), or it's

not

free (ie "I am willing to put forth

some

amount of work to earn it). Free is a binary, there's no debating it. The only thing that can be debated is whether the cost being discussed is worth the value, but if there's nay cost at all, it

can't

be "free."

I think when someone uses the word "free" in this context is something similar to standing still and auto-attacking, in other words "free" in this context is not using any kind of skill or ability to get the reward.That's

still

misrepresenting what is really been asked for. Heavily. Even Ohoni, whose suggestions about easy mode are at the bottom (skillwise) of potential options would not agree to it being

that

easy. Which he mentioned many times already, to the very same people that keep bringing this misrepresentation up.Saying thet the pro-easy mode posters ask for "free envoy" is simply completely untrue.

Basically, you don't decide the level of effort below which something becomes free. Besides, from what i have seen, any form of effort that isn't current raids is being called that way (because apparently any different kind of effort is suddenly no effort at all, even when it isn't), which makes this term even more meaningless.

@maddoctor.2738 said:So free in terms of effort, not truly free. That's how I understand it.Even used in that meaning it doesn't apply here, though.

@maddoctor.2738 said:Don't get so fixated on the word used. It's the principle that matters, getting the same rewards without any kind of effort, that's what everyone means with "free".Except it's not "without any kind of effort". There would be an effort. It's just some people seem to consider any kind of effort that doesn't fulfill their very specific criteria (that criteria being "exactly the same as in current raids") to be somehow invalid.

@maddoctor.2738 said:Exactly why I said that threads like this one: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/37656/how-would-an-easy-mode-raid-work-vg that discuss the specific mechanics of a fight are important to clear everything out. You say it would take "significant effort" but honestly, some of the suggestions in that thread do make it a "no effort" deal. Like nerfing VG damage by 80% so he doesn't do any damage anymore. That's like removing Vale Guardian from the Vale Guardian fight which doesn't make much sense.I'd definitely not support any suggestion to nerf the fight to the level where you could plain ignore the boss, like the one you mentioned above.(i'll likely be looking into that thread now, that i'm back at home, and will try to post how i see it could work there).

@maddoctor.2738 said:But does it really matter? All I'm saying is that a discussion on the actual mechanics is much more important than a vague "it would still require effort", the how you will do that is much more important than stating it will be like that.Agreed. Nevertheless, without such a discussion, implying that any possible easy mode would be equal to obtaining the rewards for free simply cannot be considered anything else but an attempt to seriously misrepresent the situation.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Ohoni.6057" said:No, because that would be equally inaccurate. "Low skill," certainly. Not free, not effortless.

Well low skill and effortless can be the exact same thing, they aren't always equal, but can certainly become equal. If the skill requirement is low, then the effort required is also low, be low enough and there is no effort required anymore. Killing Moa in Queensdale is a really low skill activity, I would call it effortless too. It all depends on the implementation, which is why discussing actual mechanical proposals is better than debating the usage of certain words.

So while it would be easier to complete than the current raids, it would not be "easy" by the standards of most of the content in the game, it would be in line with that content.

It's not like the rest of the game has one difficulty setting, there is a rather huge variety so being in line with what exactly?

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Basically, you don't decide the level of effort below which something becomes free. Besides, from what i have seen, any form of effort that isn't current raids is being called that way (because apparently any different kind of effort is suddenly no effort at all, even when it isn't), which makes this term even more meaningless.

And that's dumb, I don't agree with that. Instead I try to provide my own "versions of an easy mode" and have been on multiple threads on the subject.

Agreed. Nevertheless, without such a discussion, implying that any possible easy mode would be equal to obtaining the rewards for free simply cannot be considered anything else but an attempt to seriously misrepresent the situation.

Agreed. That's why we need more actual suggestions on the subject.People that dislike easy modes come into thread like this with the idea that the easy mode will be about getting things for free, but it's on the other side to convince them that's it's not by providing ideas for said mechanics. "You want them for free" until proven otherwise. I don't like that either, that's why I participate in discussions about easy modes with ideas, but that's how a lot of the raiders will respond.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:You know, I've always found arguing over semantics to be really cheap.

I agree, so let's stop using the term "free" to refer to things that are not free, and the conversation ends. It is an open insult to other players to continue using the term.

You obviously don't. The word is irrelevant, the intent is clear, yet you're still arguing over it instead of addressing the actual point. I'm just pointing it out so you know you're not fooling anyone.

I don't think you understand, even if I understand the intent of the speaker (and even that is not clear until after they've further clarified), I can't assume that other readers would be equally aware of their intent. If a person uses the word "car" to refer to a "motorcycle," then even if the both of us are aware that this is what he means, it is important to make clear to everyone that he is not, in fact, referring to a two-wheeled vehicle.

So again, I'm not dodging anything, I'll tackle any point you like head on. Ask a question and I'll give you a straight answer, as I believe I've been doing, but I'm not going to allow prejudicial language to remain unchallenged just because you'd like to continue using it.

@"maddoctor.2738" said:Well low skill and effortless can be the exact same thing,

They could be, but they aren't necessarily so. You can have something be low skill and effortless, you can also have something be high skill and effortless, or low skill and heavy effort. The two really don't have much to do with each other, it's like saying "expensive and delicious can be the exact same thing." Maybe, maybe not.

If the skill requirement is low, then the effort required is also low, be low enough and there is no effort required anymore.

Again, not necessarily. Instead of conflating the two things, just refer to the actual operative part, that it would require low skill, and leave the "effort" part of it out entirely unless there's a point to be made specifically about effort.

Killing Moa in Queensdale is a really low skill activity, I would call it effortless too.

I would tend to agree, but that doesn't mean that all low-skill elements are the same. Keep in mind, "killing moas" is not the bar we're setting for easy mode, it would be "equivalent to dungeon content." That's what bothers me about this whole discussion, I say "I'd like it to be easier," and the response is "you want it to meet the absolute lowest possible bar," to which I reply, "no, I'd like it to meet the bar that most of the content people play and are rewarded for meets," to which you all reply "you want it to meet the absolute lowest possible bar." Can you understand my frustration that you do not seem to be absorbing the things I am saying?

It's not like the rest of the game has one difficulty setting, there is a rather huge variety so being in line with what exactly?

We're talking aspirational goals, a general sense of where we would like to target. I hope that we can all agree that raid encounters tend to be some of the more challenging content in the game. I have said numerous times that my benchmark would be in line with dungeon content or low tier Fractals, Obviously there is a lot of variety in that range, just as there is variety between current raid encounters, but I would hope that we can agree that this would set a higher bar than "killing moas using autoattack." If you want to get more specific than that, then the actual thread on mechanics is the better place to have that conversation, and it would probably make Sephylon happy, since certain people insist on derailing that thread into "should?" territory.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:You know, I've always found arguing over semantics to be really cheap.

I agree, so let's stop using the term "free" to refer to things that are not free, and the conversation ends. It is an open insult to other players to continue using the term.

You obviously don't. The word is irrelevant, the intent is clear, yet you're still arguing over it instead of addressing the actual point. I'm just pointing it out so you know you're not fooling anyone.

I don't think you understand, even if I understand the intent of the speaker (and even that is not clear until after they've further clarified), I can't assume that other readers would be equally aware of their intent. If a person uses the word "car" to refer to a "motorcycle," then even if the both of us are aware that this is what he means, it is important to make clear to everyone that he is not, in fact, referring to a two-wheeled vehicle.

Exaggerating on purpose now? You can safely assume common sense in the other readers. In fact, not doing so could be considered offensive.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:You know, I've always found arguing over semantics to be really cheap.

I agree, so let's stop using the term "free" to refer to things that are not free, and the conversation ends. It is an open insult to other players to continue using the term.

You obviously don't. The word is irrelevant, the intent is clear, yet you're still arguing over it instead of addressing the actual point. I'm just pointing it out so you know you're not fooling anyone.

I don't think you understand, even if I understand the intent of the speaker (and even that is not clear until after they've further clarified), I can't assume that other readers would be equally aware of their intent. If a person uses the word "car" to refer to a "motorcycle," then even if the both of us are aware that this is what he means, it is important to make clear to everyone that he is not, in fact, referring to a two-wheeled vehicle.

Exaggerating on purpose now? You can safely assume common sense in the other readers. In fact, not doing so could be considered offensive.

You say that, and yet in this thread alone we have people referring to the results of "low skill" activities as being "free." Clearly it's unsafe to make any such assumptions. Better to just use the appropriate words whenever possible.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:You know, I've always found arguing over semantics to be really cheap.

I agree, so let's stop using the term "free" to refer to things that are not free, and the conversation ends. It is an open insult to other players to continue using the term.

You obviously don't. The word is irrelevant, the intent is clear, yet you're still arguing over it instead of addressing the actual point. I'm just pointing it out so you know you're not fooling anyone.

I don't think you understand, even if I understand the intent of the speaker (and even that is not clear until after they've further clarified), I can't assume that other readers would be equally aware of their intent. If a person uses the word "car" to refer to a "motorcycle," then even if the both of us are aware that this is what he means, it is important to make clear to everyone that he is not, in fact, referring to a two-wheeled vehicle.

Exaggerating on purpose now? You can safely assume common sense in the other readers. In fact, not doing so could be considered offensive.

You say that, and yet in this thread alone we have people referring to the results of "low skill" activities as being "free." Clearly it's unsafe to make any such assumptions. Better to just use the

appropriate

words whenever possible.

You're a stubborn one, aren't you? Fine.

https://urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Free

Free1) Any product or services given without charge.2) (gaming) The ability to do something without fear of retribution.3) (gaming) The ability of one character/weapon/strategy to destroy the opposition.4) An easy win.

Turns out the word was used appropriately. Now will you stop the nonsense?

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Ohoni.6057" said:They could be, but they aren't necessarily so.

Yes that's why I said they can the same, not they are the same.

Ban you understand my frustration that you do nto seem to be absorbing the things I am saying?

Which is why we need specific examples. To solve this misunderstanding once and for all.

Obviously there is a lot of variety in that range, just as there is variety between current raid encounters, but I would hope that we can agree that this would set a higher bar than "killing moas using autoattack."

Maybe then the best option is to tackle the easiest Raid encounters first, those that might not even need an easy mode to begin with.Do we need an easy mode of any of the raid non-boss events? Vale Guardian adds, Spirit Woods, Bandit Camp (Sabetha pre)Do we need an easy mode for Escort and Trio?Do we need an easy mode for Mursaat Overseer?

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Feanor.2358" said:You're a stubborn one, aren't you? Fine.

https://urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Free

. . .

When you have to go to the 4th Urban Dictionary definition to find one that vaguely relates to your point, you know you're standing on firm ground. I prefer to stick to the actual dictionary definitions whenever applicable.

@"maddoctor.2738" said:Yes that's why I said they can the same, not they are the same.

And my point was that their use in that context was unnecessarily prejudicial, if you can use much mroe accurate terms, why wouldn't you, if not to mislead people?

Ban you understand my frustration that you do nto seem to be absorbing the things I am saying?

Which is why we need

specific

examples. To solve this misunderstanding once and for all.

We don't need them though (but again, the other thread is the better place to discuss them). If I say, I do not mean "free," and I do not mean "effortless," then that is not an opening for debate. That is something that you should just accept and move on, "ok, he does not mean 'free,' he does not mean 'effortless,' he means 'lower skill than the current raids,' and no more than that."

Obviously there is a lot of variety in that range, just as there is variety between current raid encounters, but I would hope that we can agree that this would set a higher bar than "killing moas using autoattack."

Maybe then the best option is to tackle the easiest Raid encounters first, those that might not even need an easy mode to begin with.Do we need an easy mode of any of the raid non-boss events? Vale Guardian adds, Spirit Woods, Bandit Camp (Sabetha pre)

I'm honestly not sure. Having not beaten the Vale Guardian myself, I can't accurately guage the difficulty of those encounters. This is where raid veterans can really help the discussion IF they are willing to participate in them in good faith. You can probably better answer the question than I, do you believe that those encounters could be passed within the first couple tries by ten random strangers without voice chat? Do you believe that these encounters are on par with the equivalent content found in low-tier Fractals?

Do we need an easy mode for Escort and Trio?

Same as the above. I've been assured that they are "super easy," but this is by raiders who also find plenty of raid encounters "totally doable and in no need of an easier mode." Do you believe that these can be completed within the first couple of tried by an undergeared, low skill pug that could complete a low tier Fractal? If so, it's possible that these specific encounters would require little or no tweaking.

Do we need an easy mode for Mursaat Overseer?

Take a guess at my response.

[nia.4725]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:You're a stubborn one, aren't you? Fine.

https://urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Free

. . .

When you have to go to the 4th

Urban

Dictionary definition to find one that vaguely relates to your point, you know you're standing on firm ground. I prefer to stick to the

actual

dictionary definitions whenever applicable.

@"maddoctor.2738" said:Yes that's why I said they

can

the same, not they

are

the same.

And my point was that their use in that context was unnecessarily prejudicial, if you

can

use much mroe accurate terms, why wouldn't you, if not to mislead people?

Ban you understand my frustration that you do nto seem to be absorbing the things I am saying?

Which is why we need

specific

examples. To solve this misunderstanding once and for all.

We don't

need

them though (but again, the other thread is the better place to discuss them). If I

say,

I do not mean "free," and I do not mean "effortless," then that is not an opening for debate. That is something that you should just accept and move on, "ok, he does not mean 'free,' he does not mean 'effortless,' he means 'lower skill than the current raids,' and no more than that."

Obviously there is a lot of variety in that range, just as there is variety between current raid encounters, but I would hope that we can agree that this would set a higher bar than "killing moas using autoattack."

Maybe then the best option is to tackle the easiest Raid encounters first, those that might not even need an easy mode to begin with.Do we need an easy mode of any of the raid non-boss events? Vale Guardian adds, Spirit Woods, Bandit Camp (Sabetha pre)

I'm honestly not sure. Having not beaten the Vale Guardian myself, I can't accurately guage the difficulty of those encounters. This is where raid veterans can really help the discussion IF they are willing to participate in them in good faith.

You

can probably better answer the question than I, do

you

believe that those encounters could be passed within the first couple tries by ten random strangers without voice chat? Do

you

believe that these encounters are on par with the equivalent content found in low-tier Fractals?

Do we need an easy mode for Escort and Trio?

Same as the above. I've been assured that they are "super easy," but this is by raiders who also find plenty of raid encounters "totally doable and in no need of an easier mode." Do

you

believe that these can be completed within the first couple of tried by an undergeared, low skill pug that could complete a low tier Fractal? If so, it's possible that these specific encounters would require little or no tweaking.

Do we need an easy mode for Mursaat Overseer?

Take a guess at my response.

an undergeared, low skill pug that could complete a low tier Fractal

We don't need to discuss this useless thing no more, here you have all you need to know.

[Ohoni.6057]

@nia.4725 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:You're a stubborn one, aren't you? Fine.

https://urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Free

. . .

When you have to go to the 4th

Urban

Dictionary definition to find one that vaguely relates to your point, you know you're standing on firm ground. I prefer to stick to the

actual

dictionary definitions whenever applicable.

@"maddoctor.2738" said:Yes that's why I said they

can

the same, not they

are

the same.

And my point was that their use in that context was unnecessarily prejudicial, if you

can

use much mroe accurate terms, why wouldn't you, if not to mislead people?

Ban you understand my frustration that you do nto seem to be absorbing the things I am saying?

Which is why we need

specific

examples. To solve this misunderstanding once and for all.

We don't

need

them though (but again, the other thread is the better place to discuss them). If I

say,

I do not mean "free," and I do not mean "effortless," then that is not an opening for debate. That is something that you should just accept and move on, "ok, he does not mean 'free,' he does not mean 'effortless,' he means 'lower skill than the current raids,' and no more than that."

Obviously there is a lot of variety in that range, just as there is variety between current raid encounters, but I would hope that we can agree that this would set a higher bar than "killing moas using autoattack."

Maybe then the best option is to tackle the easiest Raid encounters first, those that might not even need an easy mode to begin with.Do we need an easy mode of any of the raid non-boss events? Vale Guardian adds, Spirit Woods, Bandit Camp (Sabetha pre)

I'm honestly not sure. Having not beaten the Vale Guardian myself, I can't accurately guage the difficulty of those encounters. This is where raid veterans can really help the discussion IF they are willing to participate in them in good faith.

You

can probably better answer the question than I, do

you

believe that those encounters could be passed within the first couple tries by ten random strangers without voice chat? Do

you

believe that these encounters are on par with the equivalent content found in low-tier Fractals?

Do we need an easy mode for Escort and Trio?

Same as the above. I've been assured that they are "super easy," but this is by raiders who also find plenty of raid encounters "totally doable and in no need of an easier mode." Do

you

believe that these can be completed within the first couple of tried by an undergeared, low skill pug that could complete a low tier Fractal? If so, it's possible that these specific encounters would require little or no tweaking.

Do we need an easy mode for Mursaat Overseer?

Take a guess at my response.

an undergeared, low skill pug that could complete a low tier Fractal

We don't need to discuss this useless thing no more, here you have all you need to know.

Exactly.

[nia.4725]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:You're a stubborn one, aren't you? Fine.

https://urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Free

. . .

When you have to go to the 4th

Urban

Dictionary definition to find one that vaguely relates to your point, you know you're standing on firm ground. I prefer to stick to the

actual

dictionary definitions whenever applicable.

@"maddoctor.2738" said:Yes that's why I said they

can

the same, not they

are

the same.

And my point was that their use in that context was unnecessarily prejudicial, if you

can

use much mroe accurate terms, why wouldn't you, if not to mislead people?

Ban you understand my frustration that you do nto seem to be absorbing the things I am saying?

Which is why we need

specific

examples. To solve this misunderstanding once and for all.

We don't

need

them though (but again, the other thread is the better place to discuss them). If I

say,

I do not mean "free," and I do not mean "effortless," then that is not an opening for debate. That is something that you should just accept and move on, "ok, he does not mean 'free,' he does not mean 'effortless,' he means 'lower skill than the current raids,' and no more than that."

Obviously there is a lot of variety in that range, just as there is variety between current raid encounters, but I would hope that we can agree that this would set a higher bar than "killing moas using autoattack."

Maybe then the best option is to tackle the easiest Raid encounters first, those that might not even need an easy mode to begin with.Do we need an easy mode of any of the raid non-boss events? Vale Guardian adds, Spirit Woods, Bandit Camp (Sabetha pre)

I'm honestly not sure. Having not beaten the Vale Guardian myself, I can't accurately guage the difficulty of those encounters. This is where raid veterans can really help the discussion IF they are willing to participate in them in good faith.

You

can probably better answer the question than I, do

you

believe that those encounters could be passed within the first couple tries by ten random strangers without voice chat? Do

you

believe that these encounters are on par with the equivalent content found in low-tier Fractals?

Do we need an easy mode for Escort and Trio?

Same as the above. I've been assured that they are "super easy," but this is by raiders who also find plenty of raid encounters "totally doable and in no need of an easier mode." Do

you

believe that these can be completed within the first couple of tried by an undergeared, low skill pug that could complete a low tier Fractal? If so, it's possible that these specific encounters would require little or no tweaking.

Do we need an easy mode for Mursaat Overseer?

Take a guess at my response.

an undergeared, low skill pug that could complete a low tier Fractal

We don't need to discuss this useless thing no more, here you have all you need to know.

Exactly.

But I'll say something. Okay, now I can be considered an experienced raider. But I'll talk about when I was a noob raider.

I started with Escort. I completed it in few tries but I wasn't undergeared so I guess this doesn't count (I was full ascended; was playing tempest, but I didn't know my rotation; I just used my skills how I could).

Then I swapped to druid because I hated playing tempest. But I didn't have gold for ascended equipment so I geared my druid full magi exotic with trinkets and armor from Orr's temples. So, I was undergeared.

I still completed VG in a couple of tries.

[Astralporing.1957]

@maddoctor.2738 said:Maybe then the best option is to tackle the easiest Raid encounters first, those that might not even need an easy mode to begin with.Do we need an easy mode of any of the raid non-boss events? Vale Guardian adds, Spirit Woods, Bandit Camp (Sabetha pre)For some, maybe, although they are relatively easy so any potential changes would likely be really small (if any at all - for example i've never seen anyone fail bandit camp, so i don't believe any adjustments are necessary here)

Do we need an easy mode for Escort and Trio?Possibly, although , again, the changes wouldn't be too big. In case of trio i would not adjust anything except Narella (as she is the main reason of failures here).

Do we need an easy mode for Mursaat Overseer?Yes, athough i believe it could use only very minor adjustments.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"nia.4725" said:But I'll say something. Okay, now I can be considered an experienced raider. But I'll talk about when I was a noob raider.

I started with Escort. I completed it in few tries but I wasn't undergeared so I guess this doesn't count (I was full ascended; was playing tempest, but I didn't know my rotation; I just used my skills how I could).

Then I swapped to druid because I hated playing tempest. But I didn't have gold for ascended equipment so I geared my druid full magi exotic with trinkets and armor from Orr's temples. So, I was undergeared.

I still completed VG in a couple of tries.

Ok.

Do you believe that everyone in the group you were in were geared like you were? Do you believe you were above or below the average for that group in terms of gear?

Do you believe that everyone in the VG group was above or below your general skill level? Do you believe that you carried the team you were in, that you were carried by them, or that you performed exactly 1/10th of the total participation of the group? Did you have one of those DPS tools, and if so what was your contribution like?

I've participated in VG and Gorseval attempts, in groups that are supposedly "training runs" led by experienced players, and none of them every got close to clearing it. There will always be anecdotes of players "beating these on the frist try while being undergeared, etc.). You cannot convince me that they are "easy enough" by the standards I've set forth, and if you believe that anything easier than what they are would be "basically just hitting 1" then there's no conversation to be had with you. I will never, however, advocate that it be "free" or "effortless."

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Ohoni.6057" said:We don't need them though (but again, the other thread is the better place to discuss them). If I say, I do not mean "free," and I do not mean "effortless," then that is not an opening for debate. That is something that you should just accept and move on, "ok, he does not mean 'free,' he does not mean 'effortless,' he means 'lower skill than the current raids,' and no more than that."

No I can't accept that, because intent and end result can be vastly different. Raids were intended to be doable by Guild/static groups and not pugs, yet they are done by pugs all the time. Dungeons were intended as content for people who liked Raids in other games, but in the end they weren't that content at all. The intent might be fine but unless I have some form of evidence of the actual work behind it I'll have my reservations. But unlike others I won't comment against it either (I don't use the word "free" myself for example - except when explaining it).

I'm honestly not sure. Having not beaten the Vale Guardian myself, I can't accurately guage the difficulty of those encounters. This is where raid veterans can really help the discussion IF they are willing to participate in them in good faith. You can probably better answer the question than I, do you believe that those encounters could be passed within the first couple tries by ten random strangers without voice chat? Do you believe that these encounters are on par with the equivalent content found in low-tier Fractals?

You are right, but I'd rather have an opinion of players that struggle with those pieces of content first before giving my own opinion on the subject, because the time when it was new to me (and I was failing) was a rather long time ago. I'm sure there are some out there and will contribute.[edit: Astralporing did]

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:You're a stubborn one, aren't you? Fine.

https://urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Free

. . .

When you have to go to the 4th

Urban

Dictionary definition to find one that vaguely relates to your point, you know you're standing on firm ground. I prefer to stick to the

actual

dictionary definitions whenever applicable.

Where "actual definitions" means "the one that suit me in this particular case". Sorry. Not letting you slip that easy. Cut. The. Fucking. Crap.

[Feanor.2358]

Posting a lot of irrelevant stuff and walls of text doesn't change the fact you have nothing to say on the actual point.

[nia.4725]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"nia.4725" said:But I'll say something. Okay, now I can be considered an experienced raider. But I'll talk about when I was a noob raider.

I started with Escort. I completed it in few tries but I wasn't undergeared so I guess this doesn't count (I was full ascended; was playing tempest, but I didn't know my rotation; I just used my skills how I could).

Then I swapped to druid because I hated playing tempest. But I didn't have gold for ascended equipment so I geared my druid full magi exotic with trinkets and armor from Orr's temples. So, I was undergeared.

I still completed VG in a couple of tries.

Ok.

Do you believe that everyone in the group you were in were geared like you were? Do you believe you were above or below the average for that group in terms of gear?

Do you believe that everyone in the VG group was above or below your general skill level? Do you believe that you carried the team you were in, that you were carried by them, or that you performed exactly 1/10th of the total participation of the group? Did you have one of those DPS tools, and if so what was your contribution like?

I've participated in VG and Gorseval attempts, in groups that are supposedly "training runs" led by experienced players, and none of them every got close to clearing it. There will always be anecdotes of players "beating these on the frist try while being undergeared, etc.). You cannot convince me that they are "easy enough" by the standards I've set forth, and if you believe that anything easier than what they are would be "basically just hitting 1" then there's no conversation to be had with you. I will

never,

however, advocate that it be "free" or "effortless."

Do you believe that everyone in the group you were in were geared like you were?I don't know. Some of them were full ascended, some were not. But the thing is that equipment in GW2 does not mean that much. Sure, you'll see a big difference from rare to ascended, but we both know that the majority of 80 level characters have at least exotics -exotics are VERY, very easy to get.

Do you believe you were above or below the average for that group in terms of gear?See above.

Do you believe that everyone in the VG group was above or below your general skill level?Not everyone. We had an experienced tank, because none of us could play mesmer. The others had my skill level. Don't use this to say we were carried by that tank though, because it's not true. A good tank alone does not mean anything.

Do you believe that you carried the team you were in, that you were carried by them, or that you performed exactly 1/10th of the total participation of the group?I didn't carry anyone, I didn't have the skills not the experience to do so. I also wasn't carried -I did my job as druid, not as well as I do right know of course, but well enough to heal my party and go to greens, which was my duty. So I did what I had to do, nothing more and nothing else.

Did you have one of those DPS tools, and if so what was your contribution like?No, I didn't. Because the DPS of a druid is completely irrelevant. I don't even use arcDPS nowadays, if I'm playing support. I only use the meter when I'm playing DPS. But I can say I'm not a good DPS player. As condi DPS I'm okay, but as power DPS I am not so okay. My current static indeed isn't very good at DPS, our numbers are short yet we still complete the raids. Yesterday we even did 5man Vale Guardian: 1 druid (me), 1 chrono, 3 scourges. And our DPS as scourges is around 20k, not 40k like some lowman videos in youtube show.

Some months ago I joined a VG training group. They needed a druid. All but me were completely new to raids. Their DPS was extremely low, I saw 3k-4k DPS players. The other druid was kinda bad, too. The chronos were terrible -awful boon uptime, bad tanking (they got teleported more than once and more than twice). I stayed with them, though. We killed VG.

Yup you could say I carried them with my heals, but I did not DPS the boss nor move it. They killed him before hitting enrage, I just tried to keep them alive while they handled the rest.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"nia.4725" said:I don't know. Some of them were full ascended, some were not. But the thing is that equipment in GW2 does not mean that much. Sure, you'll see a big difference from rare to ascended, but we both know that the majority of 80 level characters have at least exotics -exotics are VERY, very easy to get.

Yeah, but not necessarily of the meta combinations for their class and the content. Let's say they're in exotics, but it's PVT, or just some random "close, but not right" combinations, because they didn't meta-build their class and just had what they had. Would that be good enough, not as the exception, but as the rule, and not for a team of experts, for a team of total newbs. Would they be able to complete the encounter alive and in time?

I didn't carry anyone, I didn't have the skills not the experience to do so. I also wasn't carried -I did my job as druid, not as well as I do right know of course, but well enough to heal my party and go to greens, which was my duty. So I did what I had to do, nothing more and nothing else.

Do you believe you could have done their jobs instead then, or just that the person with the druid job is able to carry their weight with less effort? If every member of the team had been no more experienced than you, would it have been successful?

Some months ago I joined a VG training group. They needed a druid. All but me were completely new to raids. Their DPS was extremely low, I saw 3k-4k DPS players. The other druid was kinda bad, too. The chronos were terrible -awful boon uptime, bad tanking (they got teleported more than once and more than twice). I stayed with them, though. We killed VG.

That was nice of you, how long did that take?

[nia.4725]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"nia.4725" said:I don't know. Some of them were full ascended, some were not. But the thing is that equipment in GW2 does not mean that much. Sure, you'll see a big difference from rare to ascended, but we both know that the majority of 80 level characters have at least exotics -exotics are VERY, very easy to get.

Yeah, but not necessarily of the meta combinations for their class and the content. Let's say they're in exotics, but it's PVT, or just some random "close, but not right" combinations, because they didn't meta-build their class and just had what they had. Would that be good enough, not as the exception, but as the rule, and not for a team of experts, for a team of total newbs. Would they be able to complete the encounter alive and in time?

I didn't carry anyone, I didn't have the skills not the experience to do so. I also wasn't carried -I did my job as druid, not as well as I do right know of course, but well enough to heal my party and go to greens, which was my duty. So I did what I had to do, nothing more and nothing else.

Do you believe you could have done their jobs instead then, or just that the person with the druid job is able to carry their weight with less effort? If every member of the team had been no more experienced than you, would it have been successful?

Some months ago I joined a VG training group. They needed a druid. All but me were completely new to raids. Their DPS was extremely low, I saw 3k-4k DPS players. The other druid was kinda bad, too. The chronos were terrible -awful boon uptime, bad tanking (they got teleported more than once and more than twice). I stayed with them, though. We killed VG.

That was nice of you, how long did that take?

I don't know what PVT is.

Anyway. Don't you think it's extremely easy to get exotic equipment with the correct stats? What I mean with correct is: a DPS player who does not use toughness and vitality stats. Because toughness and vitality aren't going to hit anything, they are not damage oriented stats. The only stats that are difficult to get are chrono stats (commander or minstrel) and condi DPS stats (viper). Anything else can be geared just by doing open world PvE or even just buying right off the trading post. So why shouldn't a new raider do that? Off meta builds work, too. My raid leader raids sometimes with a power reaper. I use power herald sometimes, too. We also use heal firebrand (geared full minstrel). Yes, the boss can be beaten with an off meta comp, as long as you don't just pick anything.

However, I believe it's reasonable to expect and do some preparation before starting raiding. I think it's basic. Just take a look at your build, try to get the best equipment you can get, and try to know something about the boss. That's the minimum.

I could not have done their jobs. Why? 1: a druid DPS, as I already said, is too low. Your equipment is healing oriented. As a magi druid my power was the base number. As the current harrier druid I'm dealing around 2.5k DPS if I camp staff, around 3.5-4.5k if I swap to axe/warhorn. 2: a druid does not have toughness, so I couldn't have moved the boss. The boss would have never followed me. Would we have been suffessful with just noob raiders? It would have taken more time, but we would have been successful. One of our members geared a chrono few weeks later and we killed VG with her as tank.

It took around 1 hour and a half, but please remember that the number includes all the time spent waiting for the squad to fill, the time spent replacing members who left, and the time spent when I explained things in squad chat.

edit: I'll try to find the DPS log of that kill, if I still have it, when I arrive home. If I find it I'll give some info about the composition I had in that VG.