Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Bladestrom.6425]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:It's just a matter of fairness. I don't shoo newcomers away, in fact I would welcome and encourage every player who wants to become a raider. It's just that we earned said rewards through no small effort. It is only fair to require newcomers do the same we did.

Why? Nothing in life has

ever

worked that way.

Most

things get discounted eventually, and in cases where that doesn't happen, people point to it as an actual

problem

in the system.

The things that get discounted usually come with a drawback. For instance, they're second-hand. Or outdated. Or both. You're asking for the full, unhindered reward. So unless you can convince Ferrari to sell me a discounted car of my choosing from their current model line for the price of a Fiat, you're just wrong here,

very

wrong. On the other hand, if you manage to do that, I vow my support for your cause. Fair enough?

Hummm did they make Core Worn & Outdated when they made it Free to Play? Like is all the Dungeon Armor now "Worn out" and Fractals suddenly only provide "Out Dated Skins?"

But I wonder what your goal is here, I mean, what are you hoping to accomplish? To shout down those that are unhappy with the current situation and think that if you brow beat them on the forums that somehow magically that will make the problem go away.. well.. would it surprise you that.. you are kinda right, and if that is your goal, well, wish you victory in your endeavor.

Take that as you will.

there is an element within the raiders community that would rather block new content for the majority to make their own content feel more special. Its like a neighbor pouring weedkiller on next doors garden because they bought flowers from a garden center rather than growing them from scratch like he did. Mean spirited basically,

[Astralporing.1957]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:It's just a matter of fairness. I don't shoo newcomers away, in fact I would welcome and encourage every player who wants to become a raider. It's just that we earned said rewards through no small effort. It is only fair to require newcomers do the same we did.

Why? Nothing in life has

ever

worked that way.

Most

things get discounted eventually, and in cases where that doesn't happen, people point to it as an actual

problem

in the system.

The things that get discounted usually come with a drawback. For instance, they're second-hand. Or outdated. Or both.Raid armor by now is definitely outdated. Not only it has a year now, but 2 newer sets were introduced to WvW and SPvP. So, you're not trying to buy a newest car model for a discounted price. You are trying to buy an older model. In which case, a discount is very much in order.

@Feanor.2358 said:So you really want an outdated, worn-out version of the Envoy, right? Like, ascended quality no combat mode?A car loses quite a lot of its value after a year even if it's still in peak quality and never left the car saloon. In fact, a completely new car of a model that's still in production also usually gets its prices discounted as soon as a new model aimed at the same target audience gets released. Same with other goods, like TV sets, consoles, cellphones etc. The model is still as good as it was when it was created first, but the mere fact that it's not the newest shiny is enough.

By the way, by your own argument Anet's already unfair, because raiders nowadays can get the required LIs faster than originally, due to existence of w5. And yet raid armor they receive is exactly the same as when it was first released, and not a "dated" or "worn-out" version.

Basically, what you want to happen has never been true for anything. Be it real life or MMOs. Things do get discounted with time.

[Ra Ra.9423]

I appreciate that the game needs challenging content for players that are capable and enjoy it, so I've never fussed about Raids filling that role, and was glad Anet added the content for those folks. I'm not one of the people that have the capability to do it, nor the time/desire to commit to it. Our guild has tried to form teams, but basically were training new people every week, due to real life commitments that kept the same team from showing up. So we tried & died many times, and people got discouraged. Additionally, as with any challenging content some players were resistant to the gear/build requirements. It is what it is, though; so we discontinued our raid efforts, and a casual guild we will remain, which is fine. I realize I can search for a raid guild, or try to pug it, but that doesn't appeal -- and that's on me. Some of our guild did move forward and enjoy regular raiding.

I think back to GW Underworld, FoW, and DoA content, which was end game content that I really enjoyed (and still do!). Normal Mode and Hard Mode. Most players started in normal, just to learn the map and the content - learning step one, I guess. Those that wished, and were capable, moved into Hard Mode, or even Speed Clears. And I've played other MMO's that have normal and master modes, and it works for them.

I'm not a techie and can't imagine the amount of effort that goes into the making of this content. As a player, I would like to see a 'normal mode' added to Raids to open that content up for more players. Lesser rewards, of course, so as not to diminish the rewards for those who do content at current levels. To clarify - i'm seeing 'normal' mode' as an easier mode than currently offered, and 'hard mode' at what is currently in Raids now.
So, I voted for a normal/easy mode to be added. TBH, I don't expect things to change, but am tossing my vote out here anyway on the side of inclusive rather than exclusive. Regardless of that, my hat's off to Raiders everywhere for their raiding achievements in this difficult content.

[Bladestrom.6425]

ra ra makes a good point, normal mode raids was a good thing for GW1, its a good think for all the other AAA raids, it will be a good thing for GW2.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Feanor.2358" said:In effect they are. A new model line comes out, or a new technology. The item is the same, but the appeal isn't. That's why they're discounted

Again, sometimes this is the case, but not always. Games that get discounted a few months after launch are not because "they've been replaced by a new thing." In most case any sort of sequel would still be several years off. And yet you can still buy the game, as good or usually better than when it launched, for less than people at launch paid, for no other reason than that you waited a few months for it. Well non-raiders have waited over a year now for Envoy armor, more if you count the lead-up to it.

There is nothing that says that an item must be "downgraded* to be discounted, aside from your arbitrary insistence that it should be.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

@Ra Ra.9423 said:I think back to GW Underworld, FoW, and DoA content, which was end game content that I really enjoyed (and still do!). Normal Mode and Hard Mode. Most players started in normal, just to learn the map and the content - learning step one, I guess. Those that wished, and were capable, moved into Hard Mode, or even Speed Clears. And I've played other MMO's that have normal and master modes, and it works for them.

I would argue the game started with just Normal mode and later on added a hardmode to the game. (ALL of the game)Normal mode being the mode it was released as.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Ra Ra.9423 said:I think back to GW Underworld, FoW, and DoA content, which was end game content that I really enjoyed (and still do!). Normal Mode and Hard Mode. Most players started in normal, just to learn the map and the content - learning step one, I guess. Those that wished, and were capable, moved into Hard Mode, or even Speed Clears. And I've played other MMO's that have normal and master modes, and it works for them.

I would argue the game started with just Normal mode and later on added a hardmode to the game. (ALL of the game)Normal mode being the mode it was released as.

ye totally, if they had tuned the raids in GW2 to be the same level as GW1 then the participation rate would not be extremely low.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Ra Ra.9423 said:I think back to GW Underworld, FoW, and DoA content, which was end game content that I really enjoyed (and still do!). Normal Mode and Hard Mode. Most players started in normal, just to learn the map and the content - learning step one, I guess. Those that wished, and were capable, moved into Hard Mode, or even Speed Clears. And I've played other MMO's that have normal and master modes, and it works for them.

I would argue the game started with just Normal mode and later on added a hardmode to the game. (ALL of the game)Normal mode being the mode it was released as.

ye totally, if they had tuned the raids in GW2 to be the same level as GW1 then the participation rate would not be extremely low.

Well, thats besides the point entirely. Im just thinking that normal/hardmode in gw1 isnt all-equivalent to a raid easy/normal mode in this game.

And tuning is definitely not the only reason why participation is low.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Ra Ra.9423 said:I think back to GW Underworld, FoW, and DoA content, which was end game content that I really enjoyed (and still do!). Normal Mode and Hard Mode. Most players started in normal, just to learn the map and the content - learning step one, I guess. Those that wished, and were capable, moved into Hard Mode, or even Speed Clears. And I've played other MMO's that have normal and master modes, and it works for them.

I would argue the game started with just Normal mode and later on added a hardmode to the game. (ALL of the game)Normal mode being the mode it was released as.

ye totally, if they had tuned the raids in GW2 to be the same level as GW1 then the participation rate would not be extremely low.

Well, thats besides the point entirely. Im just thinking that normal/hardmode in gw1 isnt all-equivalent to a raid easy/normal mode in this game.

And tuning is definitely not the only reason why participation is low.

well ofc tuning is the issue, otherwise everyone would be playing them just like every other MMO and the other instances within GW. Same applied to GW1, everyone played normal mode raids, and had a lot of fun doing it.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@"Ra Ra.9423" said:I think back to GW Underworld, FoW, and DoA content, which was end game content that I really enjoyed (and still do!). Normal Mode and Hard Mode. Most players started in normal, just to learn the map and the content - learning step one, I guess. Those that wished, and were capable, moved into Hard Mode, or even Speed Clears. And I've played other MMO's that have normal and master modes, and it works for them.

I would argue the game started with just Normal mode and later on added a hardmode to the game. (ALL of the game)Normal mode being the mode it was released as.

ye totally, if they had tuned the raids in GW2 to be the same level as GW1 then the participation rate would not be extremely low.

Well, thats besides the point entirely. Im just thinking that normal/hardmode in gw1 isnt all-equivalent to a raid easy/normal mode in this game.

And tuning is definitely not the only reason why participation is low.

well ofc tuning is the issue, otherwise everyone would be playing them just like every other MMO and the other instances within GW. Same applied to GW1, everyone played normal mode raids, and had a lot of fun doing it.

I think you missed the words, "not only"?

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:In effect they are. A new model line comes out, or a new technology. The item is the same, but the appeal isn't. That's why they're discounted

Again,

sometimes

this is the case, but

not always.

Games that get discounted a few months after launch are not because "they've been replaced by a new thing." In most case any sort of sequel would still be several years off. And yet you can still buy the game, as good or usually

better

than when it launched, for less than people at launch paid, for

no

other reason than that you waited a few months for it. Well non-raiders have waited over a year now for Envoy armor, more if you count the lead-up to it.

There is nothing that says that an item

must

be "downgraded* to be discounted, aside from your arbitrary insistence that it should be.

That's just marketing. Squeezing out some money out of people who otherwise wouldn't buy your product. Since ANet doesn't sell the Envoy, this particular reasoning doesn't apply and the analogy is worthless.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:In effect they are. A new model line comes out, or a new technology. The item is the same, but the appeal isn't. That's why they're discounted

Again,

sometimes

this is the case, but

not always.

Games that get discounted a few months after launch are not because "they've been replaced by a new thing." In most case any sort of sequel would still be several years off. And yet you can still buy the game, as good or usually

better

than when it launched, for less than people at launch paid, for

no

other reason than that you waited a few months for it. Well non-raiders have waited over a year now for Envoy armor, more if you count the lead-up to it.

There is nothing that says that an item

must

be "downgraded* to be discounted, aside from your arbitrary insistence that it should be.

That's just marketing. Squeezing out some money out of people who otherwise wouldn't buy your product. Since ANet doesn't

sell

the Envoy, this particular reasoning doesn't apply and the analogy is worthless.

Of course, of course. . .

[Feanor.2358]

Ran out of arguments, have you?

[eyestrain.3056]

Just here to agree that an easy mode or training mode needs to be implemented. Experienced raiders may be comfortable now in their statics, but the community will only decay and become even smaller without new blood. The hurdles for a newer raider are so high right now that most give up without continuing. Not just the difficulty of the content, but the expectation from other players that they should be very experienced or gtfo sets a very negative experience that only the most determined/luckiest will make it through. I suffered through it and I honestly can't recommend that experience to my friends who have faced similar backlash for being inexperienced at raids, despite being strong and experienced players in the rest of the game.A training mode that offers very little reward would be a great way for people to experience the mechanics and learn their roles, and using existing assets but reducing some stats/softening punishment on some mechanics would probably require fairly low effort on Anet's part to put in place and maintain.Raids can be very fun and rewarding but they're too painful to get into and it hurts the entire community and gw2 as a whole.ps- i voted for easy mode but no hard mode under the assumption that the current raid difficulty would still exist and challenge motes would exist as the "hard mode". Not to replace current difficulty.

[Tyson.5160]

@Feanor.2358 said:Ran out of arguments, have you?

I just came to the realization that Anet always have their way, there is no reason to complain about anything in this game. Conform.

[STIHL.2489]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Ran out of arguments, have you?

I just came to the realization that Anet always have their way, there is no reason to complain about anything in this game. Conform.

Ahh yes.. acceptance of what is. It's a nice phase, normally comes right before burn out and moving on, been there, and truth be told, if BDO had a better UI, I'd have already given away all my stuff.. LOL.

[Tyson.5160]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Ran out of arguments, have you?

I just came to the realization that Anet always have their way, there is no reason to complain about anything in this game. Conform.

Ahh yes.. acceptance of what is. It's a nice phase, normally comes right before burn out and moving on, been there, and truth be told, if BDO had a better UI, I'd have already given away all my stuff.. LOL.

Well it hit me that I’m investing way too much time arguing and debating over a video game when I could be debating or arguing over oh I don’t know something important like social change.

[ReaverKane.7598]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:It's just a matter of fairness. I don't shoo newcomers away, in fact I would welcome and encourage every player who wants to become a raider. It's just that we earned said rewards through no small effort. It is only fair to require newcomers do the same we did.

Why? Nothing in life has

ever

worked that way.

Most

things get discounted eventually, and in cases where that doesn't happen, people point to it as an actual

problem

in the system.

The things that get discounted usually come with a drawback. For instance, they're second-hand. Or outdated. Or both. You're asking for the full, unhindered reward. So unless you can convince Ferrari to sell me a discounted car of my choosing from their current model line for the price of a Fiat, you're just wrong here,

very

wrong. On the other hand, if you manage to do that, I vow my support for your cause. Fair enough?

Hummm did they make Core Worn & Outdated when they made it Free to Play? Like is all the Dungeon Armor now "Worn out" and Fractals suddenly only provide "Out Dated Skins?"

But I wonder what your goal is here, I mean, what are you hoping to accomplish? To shout down those that are unhappy with the current situation and think that if you brow beat them on the forums that somehow magically that will make the problem go away.. well.. would it surprise you that.. you are kinda right, and if that is your goal, well, wish you victory in your endeavor.

Take that as you will.

there is an element within the raiders community that would rather block new content for the majority to make their own content feel more special. Its like a neighbor pouring weedkiller on next doors garden because they bought flowers from a garden center rather than growing them from scratch like he did. Mean spirited basically,

Come on, obviously > @"eyestrain.3056" said:

Just here to agree that an easy mode or training mode needs to be implemented. Experienced raiders may be comfortable now in their statics, but the community will only decay and become even smaller without new blood. The hurdles for a newer raider are so high right now that most give up without continuing. Not just the difficulty of the content, but the expectation from other players that they should be very experienced or gtfo sets a very negative experience that only the most determined/luckiest will make it through. I suffered through it and I honestly can't recommend that experience to my friends who have faced similar backlash for being inexperienced at raids, despite being strong and experienced players in the rest of the game.A training mode that offers very little reward would be a great way for people to experience the mechanics and learn their roles, and using existing assets but reducing some stats/softening punishment on some mechanics would probably require fairly low effort on Anet's part to put in place and maintain.Raids can be very fun and rewarding but they're too painful to get into and it hurts the entire community and gw2 as a whole.ps- i voted for easy mode but no hard mode under the assumption that the current raid difficulty would still exist and challenge motes would exist as the "hard mode". Not to replace current difficulty.

Hurdles aren't high... You can start raiding as soon as you hit lvl 80, sure you won't be doing full runs, but Escort for example is one of the easiest group contents in the game and gives the same reward as a boss. Start there and work your way up, get a group.Most people don't play on Raids because people make it out to be like playing the pro league finals of some game or something. It isn't it's great group content, and the more new people that play it the easier it is for new players to play it.Sure, a lot of old players will want to finish it faster, hence they ask for experienced players because they just want the loot. But many times, those same players will have training days when they just go out and teach others how to do the encounters.And that's what's required, that people learn the encounters, most of them aren't that more complicated than fractals, they just have a lower margin for error, and more people involved.

[STIHL.2489]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Ran out of arguments, have you?

I just came to the realization that Anet always have their way, there is no reason to complain about anything in this game. Conform.

Ahh yes.. acceptance of what is. It's a nice phase, normally comes right before burn out and moving on, been there, and truth be told, if BDO had a better UI, I'd have already given away all my stuff.. LOL.

Well it hit me that I’m investing way too much time arguing and debating over a video game when I could be debating or arguing over oh I don’t know something important like social change.

or maybe watching fail videos.. both would be more fun and better for your well being then subjugating yourself to this tripe.

[Feanor.2358]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:Ran out of arguments, have you?

I just came to the realization that Anet always have their way, there is no reason to complain about anything in this game. Conform.

The guys who created the game get to say what happens in it. Shocking, eh? Also they happen to have most actual data to judge the pros and cons of different options plus paid specialists to make this type of analysis. I'm honestly shocked they don't conform to every forum request. /s

And I don't conform, either. I agree. I understand the reasons for it - probably just part of them, since I'm no marketing specialist or actual game designer - and they are valid. Non-conformity is all well and good, but rejecting valid reasons on the basis of "let's not conform" is just silly.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Tyson.5160 said:I just came to the realization that Anet always have their way, there is no reason to complain about anything in this game. Conform.

This is false. The community complained about the mount adoption license being only random and now they added a way to buy them directly. Just one example of the dozens that happened because the community asked for them. You can always complain, but threads that reach so many pages don't help anyone anymore, I think everyone said their piece and it's impossible to convince the other side and it's better to leave it to the developers to decide at this point. I'm sure they are having their own debates on multiple subjects.

[STIHL.2489]

Anyone here get a huge laugh when people have absolute faith in Anet's ability when the company does what they want.. and complete contempt when they don't?

[STIHL.2489]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I just came to the realization that Anet always have their way, there is no reason to complain about anything in this game. Conform.

This is false. The community complained about the mount adoption license being only random and now they added a way to buy them directly. Just one example of the dozens that happened because the community asked for them. You can always complain, but threads that reach so many pages don't help anyone anymore, I think everyone said their piece and it's impossible to convince the other side and it's better to leave it to the developers to decide at this point. I'm sure they are having their own debates on multiple subjects.

I do agree with you to an extent, that they can and do change the game by player feed back, hence Raids to start with.

But at the same time, it's been 3 years now, the best time for them to have done something was when PoF launched, that really was their window to revamp Raids, and, since they didn't, this topic is done really.

And I have to agree with you, outside getting in some petty jabs, or an infraction point, this topic has no use, and anyone thinking raids will change is just living in a false hope. While it's great they cling to some hope it's still a false one, reality is, nothing is going to happen at this point. Either Raids will keep going as they are, or they will be declared dead content, but, no matter what happens, they will not be revamped. So anyone thinking they will change, or, if this whole PvE legendary armor being locked behind raids being a sore point of the game for them, they need to accept what is, and either deal or move on.

[Ze Dos Cavalos.6132]

@STIHL.2489 said:And I have to agree with you, outside getting in some petty jabs, or an infraction point, this topic has no use, and anyone thinking raids will change is just living in a false hope.

If only the others in this thread accept that too we could all move on from this and no one would have to see this thread anymore on the raid forum.I know some people that avoid raid forum coz its ridiculous the requests people make in this thread.Hammering on the same thing over and over and over for such a long time, people getting sick of it.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"STIHL.2489" said:But at the same time, it's been 3 years now, the best time for them to have done something was when PoF launched, that really was their window to revamp Raids, and, since they didn't, this topic is done really.

You don't know when the "best time" is. Remember for how many years people were complaining (loudly) about mounts? When it did make sense to add mounts, they did. If it makes sense to do something about Raids, they will do it. They do have the actual data after all and can make decisions based on it.