Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[blambidy.3216]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"blambidy.3216" said:My only thing would be if they would add a hard mode, arenanet would probably have to add another higher gear than ascended.

Challenge motes (and certain achievements) make raid encounters harder therefore mechanics to make Raid harder already exist. But their rewards aren't repeatable so it's not a separate "mode". If it was though, it might've caused more problems with Raids, how many of the current Raiders would move to the Hard mode if there was a separate mode? Wouldn't that cause trouble for the existing "normal mode" raiding population?

I don’t think it would cause problems. Well it would depend on how arenanet implements the hard mode. If you get better rewards for hard mode that people would want. Then I could see more people going. Maybe double the amount of magnetites earned? And to keep things separate. Have hard mode in raids in a separate lfg colum. However it won’t stop people from already trolling. So if there is hard made training I could see that.

The only problem which would be hard to see is that, if arenanet is willing to make a higher teir armor to accommodate the hard mode, or willing to add more people within the raid. If arenanet added another teir then the rewards should be some type of crafting towards it or a gear chest. But then if that happened the community would trip over it. And it could be a bad thing, and people would probably leave for it. Since there are a lot of casual players and don’t want to do a gear grind.

If arenanet instead put more people, rewards should at least be double of what they are now. And maybe add more masteries to the hard mode raids, and achievements. I think it would be personally fine. Maybe if hard mode added more fast mechanics. And missing mechanics would be more detrimental. Then maybe you wouldn’t need ether to add. But it would depend on how arenanet chooses to really know.

If arenanet chooses to add a hard mode though. They def should add a easy mode.

[blambidy.3216]

@nia.4725 said:

@"blambidy.3216" said:I didn’t vote because none of them is what I would say. Raids are fine the way they are. However adding a hard and easy mode would make it pretty fun. My only thing would be if they would add a hard mode, arenanet would probably have to add another higher gear than ascended.

If your talking about the boss being stronger, more life, more defense. And we’re still stuck with 10, then we would need to have a greater tier. And I don’t think the community would like it. Me personally, I wouldn’t care. I’d eventually go for it and try to kill the raid in hard mode. But that isn’t for everyone. The only way would be to add maybe 15,or 20 people raids to keep the hard mode without adding the higher gear tier.

Me i am all for it, for whichever way arenanet implements them. But I doubt they would. Since they did say they like how the raids are. If the challenge mode in raids aren’t hard enough, then having hard mode, and then a hard challenge mode would be the way to do it.

How arenanet would make the same raids harder, idk. That would be for them to decide.

This thread isn't about hard mode, in fact a lot of those pro-easy raid mode think that the current raids are "hard mode" instead of "normal mode". So the discussion is about "easy mode" or "normal mode" (for those pro-easy mode) raids which would be a cheesed raid boss, with less HP and cheesed mechanics that aren't as punishing as the current mechanics are, while getting Envoy armor for those easy mode bosses.

Um the topic does ask if there is a hard mode.... but considering your statement that the regular mode is hard. Players I know that have played wow know that the raids are pretty normal. And it’s not really hard as people think. Tbh the raids really aren’t hard as people think in gw2. Its learning timing mostly. But if arenanet did add an easy mode I do not mind. I could probably take the guild I started in, in the raid because it would be easier for them.

But people do say that fractals are easy raids. Personally, I don’t think they are close to raids. Only because raids are a lot more structured then t4s.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"blambidy.3216" said:I don’t think it would cause problems.

First, this will never be a game with a gear treadmill so putting a new tier of gear in these "hard mode" raids is out of the question. It's not only the "casual" players that do not want a gear grind. If Hard Mode is mutually exclusive with Normal Mode (you can do either for rewards) then players will do the hard one because it has greater rewards. If it's not exclusive then it will be a drag having to do both modes each week in order to max rewards. I honestly can't see a good way of making challenge motes repeatable without severely affecting the rest of the game, although I'd love to see them do that.

[nia.4725]

@blambidy.3216 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@blambidy.3216 said:I didn’t vote because none of them is what I would say. Raids are fine the way they are. However adding a hard and easy mode would make it pretty fun. My only thing would be if they would add a hard mode, arenanet would probably have to add another higher gear than ascended.

If your talking about the boss being stronger, more life, more defense. And we’re still stuck with 10, then we would need to have a greater tier. And I don’t think the community would like it. Me personally, I wouldn’t care. I’d eventually go for it and try to kill the raid in hard mode. But that isn’t for everyone. The only way would be to add maybe 15,or 20 people raids to keep the hard mode without adding the higher gear tier.

Me i am all for it, for whichever way arenanet implements them. But I doubt they would. Since they did say they like how the raids are. If the challenge mode in raids aren’t hard enough, then having hard mode, and then a hard challenge mode would be the way to do it.

How arenanet would make the same raids harder, idk. That would be for them to decide.

This thread isn't about hard mode, in fact a lot of those pro-easy raid mode think that the current raids are "hard mode" instead of "normal mode". So the discussion is about "easy mode" or "normal mode" (for those pro-easy mode) raids which would be a cheesed raid boss, with less HP and cheesed mechanics that aren't as punishing as the current mechanics are, while getting Envoy armor for those easy mode bosses.

Um the topic does ask if there is a hard mode.... but considering your statement that the regular mode is hard. Players I know that have played wow know that the raids are pretty normal. And it’s not really hard as people think. Tbh the raids really aren’t hard as people think in gw2. Its learning timing mostly. But if arenanet did add an easy mode I do not mind. I could probably take the guild I started in, in the raid because it would be easier for them.

But people do say that fractals are easy raids. Personally, I don’t think they are close to raids. Only because raids are a lot more structured then t4s.

Nah, I don't think raids are hard mode. Raids are normal mode with some challenge motes. I was referring to those who claim that current raids are "hard mode raids".

The only thing similar to a raid in fractals is Shatterer Observatory CM : /

[blambidy.3216]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"blambidy.3216" said:I don’t think it would cause problems.

First, this will never be a game with a gear treadmill so putting a new tier of gear in these "hard mode" raids is out of the question. It's not only the "casual" players that do not want a gear grind. If Hard Mode is mutually exclusive with Normal Mode (you can do either for rewards) then players will do the hard one because it has greater rewards. If it's not exclusive then it will be a drag having to do both modes each week in order to max rewards. I honestly can't see a good way of making challenge motes repeatable without severely affecting the rest of the game, although I'd love to see them do that.

If they just added a hard mode and everything would be the same. Then I don’t think it would effect the rest of the game. If no teir higher Teir. And the raids are still 10. Bosses more life, more defense and harder hits. And we went that way it couldn’t effect anyone. Just get that butt in there and try to kill it. XD. But it would take much longer then usual.

Just get higher rewards for finishing. Instead of finishing with 10 mags. You get 20. And instead of getting 3 mags for not completing, you get 0.

[blambidy.3216]

@nia.4725 said:

@blambidy.3216 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@blambidy.3216 said:I didn’t vote because none of them is what I would say. Raids are fine the way they are. However adding a hard and easy mode would make it pretty fun. My only thing would be if they would add a hard mode, arenanet would probably have to add another higher gear than ascended.

If your talking about the boss being stronger, more life, more defense. And we’re still stuck with 10, then we would need to have a greater tier. And I don’t think the community would like it. Me personally, I wouldn’t care. I’d eventually go for it and try to kill the raid in hard mode. But that isn’t for everyone. The only way would be to add maybe 15,or 20 people raids to keep the hard mode without adding the higher gear tier.

Me i am all for it, for whichever way arenanet implements them. But I doubt they would. Since they did say they like how the raids are. If the challenge mode in raids aren’t hard enough, then having hard mode, and then a hard challenge mode would be the way to do it.

How arenanet would make the same raids harder, idk. That would be for them to decide.

This thread isn't about hard mode, in fact a lot of those pro-easy raid mode think that the current raids are "hard mode" instead of "normal mode". So the discussion is about "easy mode" or "normal mode" (for those pro-easy mode) raids which would be a cheesed raid boss, with less HP and cheesed mechanics that aren't as punishing as the current mechanics are, while getting Envoy armor for those easy mode bosses.

Um the topic does ask if there is a hard mode.... but considering your statement that the regular mode is hard. Players I know that have played wow know that the raids are pretty normal. And it’s not really hard as people think. Tbh the raids really aren’t hard as people think in gw2. Its learning timing mostly. But if arenanet did add an easy mode I do not mind. I could probably take the guild I started in, in the raid because it would be easier for them.

But people do say that fractals are easy raids. Personally, I don’t think they are close to raids. Only because raids are a lot more structured then t4s.

Nah, I don't think raids are hard mode. Raids are normal mode with some challenge motes. I was referring to those who claim that current raids are "hard mode raids".

The only thing similar to a raid in fractals is Shatterer Observatory CM : /

Yea raids really aren’t as hard as people think. Just keep doing it over to finish.

[nia.4725]

@blambidy.3216 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@blambidy.3216 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@blambidy.3216 said:I didn’t vote because none of them is what I would say. Raids are fine the way they are. However adding a hard and easy mode would make it pretty fun. My only thing would be if they would add a hard mode, arenanet would probably have to add another higher gear than ascended.

If your talking about the boss being stronger, more life, more defense. And we’re still stuck with 10, then we would need to have a greater tier. And I don’t think the community would like it. Me personally, I wouldn’t care. I’d eventually go for it and try to kill the raid in hard mode. But that isn’t for everyone. The only way would be to add maybe 15,or 20 people raids to keep the hard mode without adding the higher gear tier.

Me i am all for it, for whichever way arenanet implements them. But I doubt they would. Since they did say they like how the raids are. If the challenge mode in raids aren’t hard enough, then having hard mode, and then a hard challenge mode would be the way to do it.

How arenanet would make the same raids harder, idk. That would be for them to decide.

This thread isn't about hard mode, in fact a lot of those pro-easy raid mode think that the current raids are "hard mode" instead of "normal mode". So the discussion is about "easy mode" or "normal mode" (for those pro-easy mode) raids which would be a cheesed raid boss, with less HP and cheesed mechanics that aren't as punishing as the current mechanics are, while getting Envoy armor for those easy mode bosses.

Um the topic does ask if there is a hard mode.... but considering your statement that the regular mode is hard. Players I know that have played wow know that the raids are pretty normal. And it’s not really hard as people think. Tbh the raids really aren’t hard as people think in gw2. Its learning timing mostly. But if arenanet did add an easy mode I do not mind. I could probably take the guild I started in, in the raid because it would be easier for them.

But people do say that fractals are easy raids. Personally, I don’t think they are close to raids. Only because raids are a lot more structured then t4s.

Nah, I don't think raids are hard mode. Raids are normal mode with some challenge motes. I was referring to those who claim that current raids are "hard mode raids".

The only thing similar to a raid in fractals is Shatterer Observatory CM : /

Yea raids really aren’t as hard as people think. Just keep doing it over to finish.

Some bosses are hard but those aren't the first ones you'll meet. I think the progress in raids is gradual enough, you won't start with Xera, Matthias, Soulless Horror or Deimos, not even Slothasor. But people like drama and free Envoy armors

[Bladestrom.6425]

@nia.4725 said:

@blambidy.3216 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@blambidy.3216 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@blambidy.3216 said:I didn’t vote because none of them is what I would say. Raids are fine the way they are. However adding a hard and easy mode would make it pretty fun. My only thing would be if they would add a hard mode, arenanet would probably have to add another higher gear than ascended.

If your talking about the boss being stronger, more life, more defense. And we’re still stuck with 10, then we would need to have a greater tier. And I don’t think the community would like it. Me personally, I wouldn’t care. I’d eventually go for it and try to kill the raid in hard mode. But that isn’t for everyone. The only way would be to add maybe 15,or 20 people raids to keep the hard mode without adding the higher gear tier.

Me i am all for it, for whichever way arenanet implements them. But I doubt they would. Since they did say they like how the raids are. If the challenge mode in raids aren’t hard enough, then having hard mode, and then a hard challenge mode would be the way to do it.

How arenanet would make the same raids harder, idk. That would be for them to decide.

This thread isn't about hard mode, in fact a lot of those pro-easy raid mode think that the current raids are "hard mode" instead of "normal mode". So the discussion is about "easy mode" or "normal mode" (for those pro-easy mode) raids which would be a cheesed raid boss, with less HP and cheesed mechanics that aren't as punishing as the current mechanics are, while getting Envoy armor for those easy mode bosses.

Um the topic does ask if there is a hard mode.... but considering your statement that the regular mode is hard. Players I know that have played wow know that the raids are pretty normal. And it’s not really hard as people think. Tbh the raids really aren’t hard as people think in gw2. Its learning timing mostly. But if arenanet did add an easy mode I do not mind. I could probably take the guild I started in, in the raid because it would be easier for them.

But people do say that fractals are easy raids. Personally, I don’t think they are close to raids. Only because raids are a lot more structured then t4s.

Nah, I don't think raids are hard mode. Raids are normal mode with some challenge motes. I was referring to those who claim that current raids are "hard mode raids".

The only thing similar to a raid in fractals is Shatterer Observatory CM : /

Yea raids really aren’t as hard as people think. Just keep doing it over to finish.

Some bosses are hard but those aren't the first ones you'll meet. I think the progress in raids is gradual enough, you won't start with Xera, Matthias, Soulless Horror or Deimos, not even Slothasor. But people like drama and free Envoy armors

^^ 'But people like drama and free Envoy armors' and this attitude is why this form of raiding is a poison that the majority of normal people keep well clear from.

[nia.4725]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@blambidy.3216 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@blambidy.3216 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@blambidy.3216 said:I didn’t vote because none of them is what I would say. Raids are fine the way they are. However adding a hard and easy mode would make it pretty fun. My only thing would be if they would add a hard mode, arenanet would probably have to add another higher gear than ascended.

If your talking about the boss being stronger, more life, more defense. And we’re still stuck with 10, then we would need to have a greater tier. And I don’t think the community would like it. Me personally, I wouldn’t care. I’d eventually go for it and try to kill the raid in hard mode. But that isn’t for everyone. The only way would be to add maybe 15,or 20 people raids to keep the hard mode without adding the higher gear tier.

Me i am all for it, for whichever way arenanet implements them. But I doubt they would. Since they did say they like how the raids are. If the challenge mode in raids aren’t hard enough, then having hard mode, and then a hard challenge mode would be the way to do it.

How arenanet would make the same raids harder, idk. That would be for them to decide.

This thread isn't about hard mode, in fact a lot of those pro-easy raid mode think that the current raids are "hard mode" instead of "normal mode". So the discussion is about "easy mode" or "normal mode" (for those pro-easy mode) raids which would be a cheesed raid boss, with less HP and cheesed mechanics that aren't as punishing as the current mechanics are, while getting Envoy armor for those easy mode bosses.

Um the topic does ask if there is a hard mode.... but considering your statement that the regular mode is hard. Players I know that have played wow know that the raids are pretty normal. And it’s not really hard as people think. Tbh the raids really aren’t hard as people think in gw2. Its learning timing mostly. But if arenanet did add an easy mode I do not mind. I could probably take the guild I started in, in the raid because it would be easier for them.

But people do say that fractals are easy raids. Personally, I don’t think they are close to raids. Only because raids are a lot more structured then t4s.

Nah, I don't think raids are hard mode. Raids are normal mode with some challenge motes. I was referring to those who claim that current raids are "hard mode raids".

The only thing similar to a raid in fractals is Shatterer Observatory CM : /

Yea raids really aren’t as hard as people think. Just keep doing it over to finish.

Some bosses are hard but those aren't the first ones you'll meet. I think the progress in raids is gradual enough, you won't start with Xera, Matthias, Soulless Horror or Deimos, not even Slothasor. But people like drama and free Envoy armors

^^ '

But people like drama and free Envoy armors

' and this attitude is why this form of raiding is a poison that the majority of normal people keep well clear from.

You don't know a thing about me, that conclusion is simply stupid. How do you expect raiders to react when you ask for an easy mode of raids that let you still get the Envoy? I'm all about helping newbies and teaching raids, I've soent hours with noob pugs because I wanted them to get their first raid kill. But I'll never be okay with players getting the ultimate armor in the game just by crying on the forums and getting a cheesed version of raids. That's just not fair. If you think that is toxic then okay I'm super toxic.

[Astralporing.1957]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@nia.4725 said:If they did that, to be completely fair they should also create PvE methods to get the PvP and WvW skins, but I doubt that will ever happen. I don't think anet wants to untie skins from their specific game mode nor I think they should.

They already made it possible to earn Dungeon armor skins and weapons via PvP and WvW. Why would the opposite not be fair? I've been saying for a long time that they need to add PvE reward tracks to the game,

exact

same thing as the PvP ones, where you pick the track you want to pursue, and then whichever characters you play, whatever maps they are on, everything they do would progress the bar and spit out rewards over time. It would basically be like the current XP bar once you clear Masteries, only spitting out chests instead of Spirit Crystals.

Oh no! People are getting items from Dead and Abandoned content!Dungeons weren't dead and abandoned when it happened. In fact, they were at the peak of their popularity. Besides, there are other tracks than just dungeon ones.

@"blambidy.3216" said:Um the topic does ask if there is a hard mode.... but considering your statement that the regular mode is hard. Players I know that have played wow know that the raids are pretty normal.Doesn't matter, as "hard" and "normal" are relative to the gw2 content, not the WoW one. For GW2, current raids are hard.

@nia.4725 said:You don't know a thing about me, that conclusion is simply stupid.It wasn't a conclusion about you, but about your statement. And it was spot on. It's exactly this dismissive and contemptuous attitude that many raiders have that make most people avoid raids like a plague.

How do you expect raiders to react when you ask for an easy mode of raids that let you still get the Envoy?Try to actually address the arguments, not strawmans, for one. "free Envoy armor"

is

a strawman, no matter how some people try to present it as something else.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@nia.4725 said:If they did that, to be completely fair they should also create PvE methods to get the PvP and WvW skins, but I doubt that will ever happen. I don't think anet wants to untie skins from their specific game mode nor I think they should.

They already made it possible to earn Dungeon armor skins and weapons via PvP and WvW. Why would the opposite not be fair? I've been saying for a long time that they need to add PvE reward tracks to the game,

exact

same thing as the PvP ones, where you pick the track you want to pursue, and then whichever characters you play, whatever maps they are on, everything they do would progress the bar and spit out rewards over time. It would basically be like the current XP bar once you clear Masteries, only spitting out chests instead of Spirit Crystals.

Oh no! People are getting items from Dead and Abandoned content!Dungeons weren't dead and abandoned when it happened. In fact, they were at the peak of their popularity. Besides, there are other tracks than just dungeon ones.

@"blambidy.3216" said:Um the topic does ask if there is a hard mode.... but considering your statement that the regular mode is hard. Players I know that have played wow know that the raids are pretty normal.Doesn't matter, as "hard" and "normal" are relative to the gw2 content, not the WoW one. For GW2, current raids are hard.

@nia.4725 said:You don't know a thing about me, that conclusion is simply stupid.It wasn't a conclusion about you, but about your statement. And it was spot on. It's exactly this dismissive and contemptuous attitude that many raiders have that make most people avoid raids like a plague.

How do you expect raiders to react when you ask for an easy mode of raids that let you still get the Envoy?Try to actually address the arguments, not strawmans, for one. "free Envoy armor"

is

a strawman, no matter how some people try to present it as something else.

Anet Abandoned the content sorry to say it but they no longer supported it at the time when PvP got Reward tracks and if any reason they were ran was for the ridiculous liquid rewards and not the non unique skins since the skins were already available to PvP prior to the PvP Reward tracks but again facts are pesky things that certain people don’t like.

[nia.4725]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@nia.4725 said:If they did that, to be completely fair they should also create PvE methods to get the PvP and WvW skins, but I doubt that will ever happen. I don't think anet wants to untie skins from their specific game mode nor I think they should.

They already made it possible to earn Dungeon armor skins and weapons via PvP and WvW. Why would the opposite not be fair? I've been saying for a long time that they need to add PvE reward tracks to the game,

exact

same thing as the PvP ones, where you pick the track you want to pursue, and then whichever characters you play, whatever maps they are on, everything they do would progress the bar and spit out rewards over time. It would basically be like the current XP bar once you clear Masteries, only spitting out chests instead of Spirit Crystals.

Oh no! People are getting items from Dead and Abandoned content!Dungeons weren't dead and abandoned when it happened. In fact, they were at the peak of their popularity. Besides, there are other tracks than just dungeon ones.

@"blambidy.3216" said:Um the topic does ask if there is a hard mode.... but considering your statement that the regular mode is hard. Players I know that have played wow know that the raids are pretty normal.Doesn't matter, as "hard" and "normal" are relative to the gw2 content, not the WoW one. For GW2, current raids are hard.

@nia.4725 said:You don't know a thing about me, that conclusion is simply stupid.It wasn't a conclusion about you, but about your statement. And it was spot on. It's exactly this dismissive and contemptuous attitude that many raiders have that make most people avoid raids like a plague.

How do you expect raiders to react when you ask for an easy mode of raids that let you still get the Envoy?Try to actually address the arguments, not strawmans, for one. "free Envoy armor"

is

a strawman, no matter how some people try to present it as something else.

Free Envoy is cheesing raids until you can beat the boss without any need of thinking about a proper build or a rotation, free envoy is cheesing raids so that the boss is much less punishing and has lower HP. That's just no effort at all, therefore free envoy. You're exaggerating a whole lot when you all say raids are hard. Sure they are not easy but they are perfectly doable, you just are not interested in the effort required to do them (which is fine) but still want the shiny prestigious thing (which is not fine).

[Ohoni.6057]

@blambidy.3216 said:I don’t think it would cause problems. Well it would depend on how arenanet implements the hard mode. If you get better rewards for hard mode that people would want. Then I could see more people going. Maybe double the amount of magnetites earned? And to keep things separate. Have hard mode in raids in a separate lfg colum. However it won’t stop people from already trolling. So if there is hard made training I could see that.

They can't offer anything unique to hard mode, that would only make a bad problem worse. They can certainly add a little bit more of the same rewards per unit of time for running the harder version, but if you don't want to be there, then you shouldn't be there.

@"nia.4725" said:You don't know a thing about me, that conclusion is simply stupid. How do you expect raiders to react when you ask for an easy mode of raids that let you still get the Envoy?

"You bring up an interesting point. I understand that the current raids aren't for you, and would love to see you have a mode you could enjoy as much as I enjoy the current raids, and that would provide you access to content and rewards that appeal to you."

That'd be a nice start.

@"TexZero.7910" said:Is it really misrepresenting the other sides position when they've asked exactly for that ?

Hypothetically, no, it wouldn't be, but since the other side didn't actually ask for that, then yes, that is exactly what "misrepresenting" means.

[nia.4725]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@blambidy.3216 said:I don’t think it would cause problems. Well it would depend on how arenanet implements the hard mode. If you get better rewards for hard mode that people would want. Then I could see more people going. Maybe double the amount of magnetites earned? And to keep things separate. Have hard mode in raids in a separate lfg colum. However it won’t stop people from already trolling. So if there is hard made training I could see that.

They can't offer anything

unique

to hard mode, that would only make a bad problem worse. They can certainly add a little bit

more

of the same rewards per unit of time for running the harder version, but if you don't

want

to be there, then you

shouldn't

be there.

@"nia.4725" said:You don't know a thing about me, that conclusion is simply stupid. How do you expect raiders to react when you ask for an easy mode of raids that let you still get the Envoy?

"You bring up an interesting point. I understand that the current raids aren't for you, and would love to see you have a mode you could enjoy as much as I enjoy the current raids, and that would provide you access to content and rewards that appeal to you."

That'd be a nice start.

@"TexZero.7910" said:Is it really misrepresenting the other sides position when they've asked exactly for that ?

Hypothetically,

no, it wouldn't be, but since the other side

didn't

actually ask for that, then

yes,

that is

exactly

what "misrepresenting" means.

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@blambidy.3216 said:I don’t think it would cause problems. Well it would depend on how arenanet implements the hard mode. If you get better rewards for hard mode that people would want. Then I could see more people going. Maybe double the amount of magnetites earned? And to keep things separate. Have hard mode in raids in a separate lfg colum. However it won’t stop people from already trolling. So if there is hard made training I could see that.

They can't offer anything

unique

to hard mode, that would only make a bad problem worse. They can certainly add a little bit

more

of the same rewards per unit of time for running the harder version, but if you don't

want

to be there, then you

shouldn't

be there.

@"nia.4725" said:You don't know a thing about me, that conclusion is simply stupid. How do you expect raiders to react when you ask for an easy mode of raids that let you still get the Envoy?

"You bring up an interesting point. I understand that the current raids aren't for you, and would love to see you have a mode you could enjoy as much as I enjoy the current raids, and that would provide you access to content and rewards that appeal to you."

That'd be a nice start.

@"TexZero.7910" said:Is it really misrepresenting the other sides position when they've asked exactly for that ?

Hypothetically,

no, it wouldn't be, but since the other side

didn't

actually ask for that, then

yes,

that is

exactly

what "misrepresenting" means.

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@blambidy.3216 said:I don’t think it would cause problems. Well it would depend on how arenanet implements the hard mode. If you get better rewards for hard mode that people would want. Then I could see more people going. Maybe double the amount of magnetites earned? And to keep things separate. Have hard mode in raids in a separate lfg colum. However it won’t stop people from already trolling. So if there is hard made training I could see that.

They can't offer anything

unique

to hard mode, that would only make a bad problem worse. They can certainly add a little bit

more

of the same rewards per unit of time for running the harder version, but if you don't

want

to be there, then you

shouldn't

be there.

@"nia.4725" said:You don't know a thing about me, that conclusion is simply stupid. How do you expect raiders to react when you ask for an easy mode of raids that let you still get the Envoy?

"You bring up an interesting point. I understand that the current raids aren't for you, and would love to see you have a mode you could enjoy as much as I enjoy the current raids, and that would provide you access to content and rewards that appeal to you."

That'd be a nice start.

@"TexZero.7910" said:Is it really misrepresenting the other sides position when they've asked exactly for that ?

Hypothetically,

no, it wouldn't be, but since the other side

didn't

actually ask for that, then

yes,

that is

exactly

what "misrepresenting" means.

I understand that the current raids aren't for you, and would love to see you play a content you actually enjoy.

We've already talked about this, Ohoni. All content doesn't have to please everybody. Or else Anet should change OW because there are a lot of people who don't enjoy it, but we still want OW rewards. And Anet should change WvW, because there are a lot of people who don't like WvW, but still want the rewards.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"nia.4725" said:We've already talked about this, Ohoni. All content doesn't have to please everybody.

"You can't please everybody" is no excuse to not try and please as many as possible.

I do not assert that all content has to please everybody. I assert that Raids can be added to in a way that would please a lot more players, without taking anything away from anyone.

Or else Anet should change OW because there are a lot of people who don't enjoy it, but we still want OW rewards.

And as I've said, I 100% support there being more options for players that want OW rewards to work towards them within their own favorite mode.

And Anet should change WvW, because there are a lot of people who don't like WvW, but still want the rewards.

And as I've said, I 100% support there being more options for players that want OW rewards to work towards them within their own favorite mode.

I believe that raids are the priority for this sort of change, because of all the content in the game they have the highest barrier of entry, but I would never once try to argue down someone who would want a reasonably engaging portion of the game to also allow them to pursue their goals.

You don't have to agree, that's fine, just don't try to falsely present the position I take in the matter. I am 100% up front about wanting to be able to earn raid rewards through content that would have a lower barrier of entry, but I have NEVER asked for it "for free," and it is inaccurate to suggest that I have. "Working hard at something in content that is easier than the currently required content" is never "free," and that is not something you can have a conflicting opinion about. You can like it, or not like it, but you don't get to redefine what words mean.

[nia.4725]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"nia.4725" said:We've already talked about this, Ohoni. All content doesn't have to please everybody.

"You can't please everybody" is no excuse to not try and please as many as possible.

I do not assert that all content has to please everybody. I assert that Raids can be

added to

in a way that would please a lot

more

players, without taking anything away from anyone.

Or else Anet should change OW because there are a lot of people who don't enjoy it, but we still want OW rewards.

And as I've said, I

100%

support there being more options for players that want OW rewards to work towards them within their own favorite mode.

And Anet should change WvW, because there are a lot of people who don't like WvW, but still want the rewards.

And as I've said, I

100%

support there being more options for players that want OW rewards to work towards them within their own favorite mode.

I believe that raids are the

priority

for this sort of change, because of all the content in the game they have the highest barrier of entry, but I would never once try to argue down someone who would want a reasonably engaging portion of the game to also allow them to pursue their goals.

You don't have to agree, that's fine, just don't try to falsely present the position I take in the matter. I am 100% up front about wanting to be able to earn raid rewards through content that would have a lower barrier of entry, but I have NEVER asked for it "for free," and it is inaccurate to suggest that I have. "Working hard at something in content that is easier than the currently required content" is never "free," and that is not something you can have a conflicting opinion about. You can like it, or not like it, but you don't get to redefine what words mean.

Ok. I'll remind you of some things you said in the past

But if it were possible to make a guitar that people could play as soon as they pick it up, then wouldn't that be good too? I don;t expect to become great at the existing raids overnight, I just want a version of them where I don't have to be.

about easy mode vg

If you want to train, you'd want to try just as hard to avoid getting caught, and learning to dodge these would teach you what you need to learn. If you don't care to train and just have fun with the mode as it stands then you could try your best to avoid them, but if you messed up, or someone else on your team did, it wouldn't force a wipe or anything and the attempt could continue.

An easy mode would still have things you could learn from it, but you wouldn't need to learn these lessons just to pass it.

You wouldn't need to learn these lessons just to pass it

[Ohoni.6057]

@"nia.4725" said:But if it were possible to make a guitar that people could play as soon as they pick it up, then wouldn't that be good too? I don;t expect to become great at the existing raids overnight, I just want a version of them where I don't have to be.

about easy mode vg

I did say that, but I was talking about skills, not rewards.

I was not saying "it would be nice if you could get the armor just for walking in," I was saying "it would be nice if you could pick up the skills you needed to complete the challenge while playing it, like in most other GW2 content, rather than needing multiple "training runs" to become adept enough to beat it." I want a raid mode where clearing it is not terribly challenging, and the player's goal is not to get better until eventually they can clear it, but rather to clear it over and over, improving their efficiency each time.

Putting work in, even low challenge work, is not "free."

An easy mode would still have things you could learn from it, but you wouldn't need to learn these lessons just to pass it.

Yes, exactly.

[nia.4725]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"nia.4725" said:But if it were possible to make a guitar that people could play as soon as they pick it up, then wouldn't that be good too? I don;t expect to become great at the existing raids overnight, I just want a version of them where I don't have to be.

about easy mode vg

I did say that, but I was talking about

skills,

not

rewards.

I was not saying "it would be nice if you could get the armor just for walking in," I was saying "it would be nice if you could pick up the skills you needed to complete the challenge

while

playing it, like in most other GW2 content, rather than needing multiple "training runs" to become adept enough to beat it." I want a raid mode where clearing it is not terribly challenging, and the player's goal is not to get better until eventually they can clear it, but rather to clear it over and over, improving their

efficiency

each time.

Putting work in, even low challenge work, is not "free."

An easy mode would still have things you could learn from it, but you wouldn't need to learn these lessons just to pass it.

Yes, exactly.

okay the forum messes up the quote : D but

: v really?

[Ohoni.6057]

@nia.4725 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@nia.4725 said:But if it were possible to make a guitar that people could play as soon as they pick it up, then wouldn't that be good too? I don;t expect to become great at the existing raids overnight, I just want a version of them where I don't have to be.

about easy mode vg

I did say that, but I was talking about

skills,

not

rewards.

I was not saying "it would be nice if you could get the armor just for walking in," I was saying "it would be nice if you could pick up the skills you needed to complete the challenge

while

playing it, like in most other GW2 content, rather than needing multiple "training runs" to become adept enough to beat it." I want a raid mode where clearing it is not terribly challenging, and the player's goal is not to get better until eventually they can clear it, but rather to clear it over and over, improving their

efficiency

each time.

Putting work in, even low challenge work, is not "free."

An easy mode would still have things you could learn from it, but you wouldn't need to learn these lessons just to pass it.

Yes, exactly.

okay the forum messes up the quote : D but

: v really?

Yes?

Oh, and using the forum is pretty easy, just put > signs in front of any line that's a quote.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Ohoni.6057" said:You don't have to agree, that's fine, just don't try to falsely present the position I take in the matter. I am 100% up front about wanting to be able to earn raid rewards through content that would have a lower barrier of entry, but I have NEVER asked for it "for free," and it is inaccurate to suggest that I have. "Working hard at something in content that is easier than the currently required content" is never "free," and that is not something you can have a conflicting opinion about. You can like it, or not like it, but you don't get to redefine what words mean.

That's why threads like this one: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/37656/how-would-an-easy-mode-raid-work-vg are nice to have (without all the derailment though) because debating things like "it's free" or "it's not free" is essentially meaningless without having actual mechanics to discuss.

[Ohoni.6057]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Ohoni.6057" said:You don't have to agree, that's fine, just don't try to falsely present the position I take in the matter. I am 100% up front about wanting to be able to earn raid rewards through content that would have a lower barrier of entry, but I have NEVER asked for it "for free," and it is inaccurate to suggest that I have. "Working hard at something in content that is easier than the currently required content" is never "free," and that is not something you can have a conflicting opinion about. You can like it, or not like it, but you don't get to redefine what words mean.

That's why threads like this one:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/37656/how-would-an-easy-mode-raid-work-vg

are nice to have (without all the derailment though) because debating things like "it's free" or "it's not free" is essentially meaningless without having actual mechanics to discuss.

Really, it's meaningless always, because it either is free (ie, "give me that thing for literally nothing"), or it's not free (ie "I am willing to put forth some amount of work to earn it). Free is a binary, there's no debating it. The only thing that can be debated is whether the cost being discussed is worth the value, but if there's nay cost at all, it can't be "free."

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Ohoni.6057" said:Really, it's meaningless always, because it either is free (ie, "give me that thing for literally nothing"), or it's not free (ie "I am willing to put forth some amount of work to earn it). Free is a binary, there's no debating it. The only thing that can be debated is whether the cost being discussed is worth the value, but if there's nay cost at all, it can't be "free."

I think when someone uses the word "free" in this context is something similar to standing still and auto-attacking, in other words "free" in this context is not using any kind of skill or ability to get the reward. Getting the PVP reward track rewards on PVP farm maps can be considered "free" because you don't do anything other than wasting time, getting WVW reward track rewards by following a tag and spamming 1 on your Staff Guardian is very similar. "Leeching" in Open World events by just tagging a few mobs to get participation and then going afk while others finish the event itself is another type of "free" reward. It will never be entirely "free" -obviously- you always have to "pay" something, like give your precious time, but in this context is free in terms of effort and skill required.

Similarly, an easy mode for Raids can be anything between effortless/free and hard/challenging it's all based on it's implementation. If the skill/effort required to finish the easy mode of Raids is the same as PVP farm maps, then it's essentially a free reward because you don't do anything to get it other than wasting your time. So free in terms of effort, not truly free. That's how I understand it.

[nia.4725]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Ohoni.6057" said:Really, it's meaningless always, because it either is free (ie, "give me that thing for

literally

nothing"), or it's

not

free (ie "I am willing to put forth

some

amount of work to earn it). Free is a binary, there's no debating it. The only thing that can be debated is whether the cost being discussed is worth the value, but if there's nay cost at all, it

can't

be "free."

I think when someone uses the word "free" in this context is something similar to standing still and auto-attacking, in other words "free" in this context is not using any kind of skill or ability to get the reward. Getting the PVP reward track rewards on PVP farm maps can be considered "free" because you don't do anything other than wasting time, getting WVW reward track rewards by following a tag and spamming 1 on your Staff Guardian is very similar. "Leeching" in Open World events by just tagging a few mobs to get participation and then going afk while others finish the event itself is another type of "free" reward. It will never be entirely "free" -obviously- you always have to "pay" something, like give your precious time, but in this context is free in terms of effort and skill required.

Similarly, an easy mode for Raids can be anything between effortless/free and hard/challenging it's all based on it's implementation. If the skill/effort required to finish the easy mode of Raids is the same as PVP farm maps, then it's essentially a free reward because you don't do anything to get it other than wasting your time. So free in terms of effort, not truly free. That's how I understand it.

This. I appreciate you made an effort to explain it, I would't have done it myself.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"maddoctor.2738" said:I think when someone uses the word "free" in this context is something similar to standing still and auto-attacking,

Well then, regardless of context, they would be misusing the word, and should use a different word instead to convey their point.

I'm not arguing that the intended way to play should be standing still and autoattacking, just pointing out that even this would not be "free."

What I argue for is that it would take significant effort, you would be no more able to "stand still and auto-attack" than you would be in the current raids, the average participant would at least need to be as engaged as in any other dungeon or fractal boss fight, which may not be as much skill or effort as some would want, and that's fine, but that doesn't make it, in any context, "free."

Unless of course you're talking about how the devs hand it to players without them spending any cash money, in which case it would be "free," but no less than the current raid rewards are "free."

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Ohoni.6057" said:Well then, regardless of context, they would be misusing the word, and should use a different word instead to convey their point.

Don't get so fixated on the word used. It's the principle that matters, getting the same rewards without any kind of effort, that's what everyone means with "free". Like the examples of PVP and WVW rewards I gave. You can get the rewards by actively playing the content, or you can get them the "free way".

What I argue for is that it would take significant effort, you would be no more able to "stand still and auto-attack" than you would be in the current raids, the average participant would at least need to be as engaged as in any other dungeon or fractal boss fight, which may not be as much skill or effort as some would want, and that's fine, but that doesn't make it, in any context, "free."

Exactly why I said that threads like this one: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/37656/how-would-an-easy-mode-raid-work-vg that discuss the specific mechanics of a fight are important to clear everything out. You say it would take "significant effort" but honestly, some of the suggestions in that thread do make it a "no effort" deal. Like nerfing VG damage by 80% so he doesn't do any damage anymore. That's like removing Vale Guardian from the Vale Guardian fight which doesn't make much sense.