Heal Mesmer Stonks Way Up

[Micah.3789]

As a heal mirage main and build crafter, I'm so excited for this patch. After being routinely disappointed by bubblegum and duct tape build fixes, I really did not expect such a thorough and seemingly balanced rework for heal mesmer. We haven't seen the actual values yet though so there's still a chance to botch it, but I'm so very hopeful. Even if it doesn't live up to expectations, I can't see any builds being hurt by these changes except maybe a little condi damage reduction on Illusionary Membrane depending on the values given. I'm not going to list all my positive feedback in detail, but please feel free to discuss in the comments or just share in the appreciation. This patch may very well restore my faith in the balance dev team.

[Levetty.1279]

I just hope it isn't Mantra reliant which it is looking like it will be.

Still the only skills in the game with a 2 1/2 second cast time for no reason.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

2 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

I just hope it isn't Mantra reliant which it is looking like it will be.

Still the only skills in the game with a 2 1/2 second cast time for no reason.

Just because Mantras have the Heal trait? I don't see anything else in this that encourages Mantras.

[Levetty.1279]

15 minutes ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

Just because Mantras have the Heal trait? I don't see anything else in this that encourages Mantras.

That is kind of a big thing for a Heal build.

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

Unlocking Bountiful Disillusionment for group support is already huge for Chrono. In theory, Chrono could do something like:

- Enter CS
- Use all Shatters
- Use Mimic, then use Signet of Illusions to recharge all Shatters
- Use all Shatters again
- Use Signet of Illusions to recharge all Shatters again
- Use all Shatters again
- Exit CS
- Use all Shatters again
- Use Signet of Illusions to recharge all Shatters again
- Use all Shatters again

I'm not sure if it's possible to fit all of that in the 6 seconds CS gives us (might be possible under Quickness), but that's 5 times of using all Shatters for 20 times of Shatter. Mind you that if traited, each Shatter also heals, gives Protection (new trait works on all Shatters), either Alac or Quick (due to above I think a Quick Heal Chrono is better), and when Shattering F4 we also share Aegis. We'll see how this interaction goes, I just hope that devs don't get scared and go back on this change.

Another idea I've been toying with Heal Chrono is using Relic of the Flock to offset Well of Eternity's main weakness. Giving people a 3k+ barrier should be enough to keep them safe before the Well ends and heals them (barrier lasts for 5 seconds). Not sure where it would fit but I think it's still a cool idea I want to share about Chrono. 

Edited October 29, 2023 by ZephidelGRS.9520

[Teknomancer.4895]

WTF does "stonks" mean?

[Alpha.1308]

7 hours ago, Micah.3789 said:

This patch may very well restore my faith in the balance dev team.

big doubt 

steps in the right direction, don't get me wrong, i'm glad they finally are doing SOMETHING that isn't "haha 7% number change go brrrr" but i doubt these buffs will actually "change" much, it'll just buff existing chrono builds, without really changing anything they already do in normal rotation in all 3 game modes to begin with 

i'll hope to be proven wrong, i just absolutely doubt it

[Grand Marshal.4098]

1 hour ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

WTF does "stonks" mean?

A more comical way of saying stocks online

[Roadkizzle.2157]

4 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

That is kind of a big thing for a Heal build.

It just seems that it's looked like people have been saying the new balance patch is changing things for mantras but I can't see anything about that.

As a Chrono player I'll definitely be trying to make healing work with the Wells and Illusions/shattering.

I value the Feedback Rez trait more than the mantra heal trait. 

[Micah.3789]

4 hours ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

It just seems that it's looked like people have been saying the new balance patch is changing things for mantras but I can't see anything about that.

Ya, mantras are exactly the same, but now there are even more options to provide healing... even instead of mantras. I foresee healing builds with and without restorative mantras for sure, especially depending on the E spec. Chronos have more healing alternatives to forgo mantras, while mirages have more cast time freedom to utilize mantras.

I will say, it would be really nice if the mantra cast times were reduced a little. Even just to 1.5sec would make them a lot more comfortable without making them unbalanced I think. That's really the only thing still left on my personal wish list though, and I'll still enjoy the build without it.

[Mevelios.4809]

4 hours ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

It just seems that it's looked like people have been saying the new balance patch is changing things for mantras but I can't see anything about that.

[...] I value the Feedback Rez trait more than the mantra heal trait. 

I neither saw anything about it. I'd also disregard the mantra heal trait, it only works on the preparation which takes slightly more than two seconds.

So much can happen in the meantime, I'd rather stack on either clone/phantasm utilities, either signets - make it singular actually for the one of Illusions; I just remembered Restorative illusions would be after the update on the same line as Blurred inscriptions, meaning you would have to choose between a future likely lifesaver in restorative illusions against the possibility of spreading Inspiration. Bit of a shame since the blurred inscriptions producing distortion work already in pair with Inspiring distortion, but I guess together it'd be excessive (unless our healing modifiers prove "unsatisfying", but once more, can only tell after testing).

While thinking of the signet of inspiration, it would be a lot more interesting to me, even if it came at the cost of a higher CD, by spreading a stack of all of the mesmer's boons to close allies rather than renewing timers. I'd definitely see more synergies in tying it to a core mesmer profile which, at the cost of the chrono's alacrity/quickness, the mirage's alacrity from Mirage mantle, and the virtuoso's many healing opportunities (more blades, moar moar!) could actually benefit from the Illusion spec with Persistence of memory, Phantasmal haste and Phantasmal force, spreading quickness through the signet (possible also for the mirage to get some through its mantle I linked above if using the scepter, which comes at the terrible cost for this profile of no longer wielding the staff for at least 10sec).

Bunch of possibilities to imagine so far, but I hope mantras will be given a bit of love later - since they won't change from their current state, I know I won't be using them!

[Mevelios.4809]

One more thing I forgot to add regarding the chaos spec: the higher frequency of chaos armor output is likely to allow a longer protection uptime, though conditioned to taking hits. Since the mesmer will likely heal only in close vicinity, Blink could offer some short relief coupled to Master of manipulation before having the time to pump out illusions or shatter them (or prepare mantras for whoever fancies it), which comes in immediate competition with Illusionary defense that's supposed to offer, well, more protection after the update.

I won't repeat my reasoning over the loss of that stacking defense for a melee player such as myself, but Mimic also is a manipulation and could find its place on player preference. Choices have to be made, however both cases have their ups and downs!

[Levetty.1279]

14 hours ago, Micah.3789 said:

Ya, mantras are exactly the same, but now there are even more options to provide healing... even instead of mantras. I foresee healing builds with and without restorative mantras for sure, especially depending on the E spec. Chronos have more healing alternatives to forgo mantras, while mirages have more cast time freedom to utilize mantras.

I will say, it would be really nice if the mantra cast times were reduced a little. Even just to 1.5sec would make them a lot more comfortable without making them unbalanced I think. That's really the only thing still left on my personal wish list though, and I'll still enjoy the build without it.

I just don't understand how they think a 2 1/2 second cast time followed by having to press the skill again to get the desired effect is a good idea at all.

[Elricht Kaltwind.8796]

On 10/29/2023 at 6:09 AM, Levetty.1279 said:

I just hope it isn't Mantra reliant which it is looking like it will be.

Still the only skills in the game with a 2 1/2 second cast time for no reason.

I don't play elementalist, but I love mantras the way they are on Firebrand. I use a mantras build because I find the gameplay very fun. They're powerful, and I really enjoy the balancing act between using that boosted final charge at the cost of a long casting time. It adds a bit of the risk/reward payoff that made the first game so great. In my opinion, the game could use more skills like that, rather than faceroll skillbars that effectively amount to spammy gameplay.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Elricht Kaltwind.8796

[Mevelios.4809]

8 minutes ago, Elricht Kaltwind.8796 said:

I don't play elementalist, but I love mantras the way they are on Firebrand. [...] They're powerful, and I really enjoy the balancing act between using that boosted final charge at the cost of a long casting time. It adds a bit of the risk/reward payoff

That's the thing, our mantras do not work the same way: similar cast time but no stronger final charge, one less cast, and effects affecting allies are very limited. Recovery preparation offers a small ally heal, but its skill (power return) doesn't; pain offers a short-lived might, but power spike is rather meant for damage dealers; concentration provides aegis & stability, but power break offers only more stability which is redundant; resolve offers a condi cleanse, but power cleanse does the exact same thing - redundancy again. Distraction/power lock both have zero effect on allies.

Firebrand's mantras are tied to the very spec rather than the guardian profession, the very spec known to be reliable in providing quickness to halve these lengthy casts; on our end it's largely limited to chrono, the few other opportunities being tied to domination spec and interrupts (meaningless for a support mesmer), to illusions spec by summoning phantasms (which won't be exactly performing as well as chaos/inspiration so it's unlikely, hence my few remarks above what could work for a core mesmer with a change in the signet of inspiration) or to mirage's mantle requiring wielding a scepter, which has zero support function.

I'm not a fan of mantras because of their cast time, but when distancing myself from my personal taste I also don't find it worthwhile considering the effects - maybe resolve/power cleanse if the situation calls for it, but no more! I wouldn't even dare comparing firebrand & mesmer mantras, just looking at Power return against Restoring reprieve says it all - even the modifiers themselves, below 50% hp or not.

[Elricht Kaltwind.8796]

11 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

That's the thing, our mantras do not work the same way: similar cast time but no stronger final charge, one less cast, and effects affecting allies are very limited. Recovery preparation offers a small ally heal, but its skill (power return) doesn't; pain offers a short-lived might, but power spike is rather meant for damage dealers; concentration provides aegis & stability, but power break offers only more stability which is redundant; resolve offers a condi cleanse, but power cleanse does the exact same thing - redundancy again. Distraction/power lock both have zero effect on allies.

Firebrand's mantras are tied to the very spec rather than the guardian profession, the very spec known to be reliable in providing quickness to halve these lengthy casts; on our end it's largely limited to chrono, the few other opportunities being tied to domination spec and interrupts (meaningless for a support mesmer), to illusions spec by summoning phantasms (which won't be exactly performing as well as chaos/inspiration so it's unlikely, hence my few remarks above what could work for a core mesmer with a change in the signet of inspiration) or to mirage's mantle requiring wielding a scepter, which has zero support function.

I'm not a fan of mantras because of their cast time, but when distancing myself from my personal taste I also don't find it worthwhile considering the effects - maybe resolve/power cleanse if the situation calls for it, but no more! I wouldn't even dare comparing firebrand & mesmer mantras, just looking at Power return against Restoring reprieve says it all - even the modifiers themselves, below 50% hp or not.

I can understand your pain then. Seems to me that they should make all mantra skills function like the Firebrand ones, without that I can't see how the reward could possibly compensate for the risk.

[Levetty.1279]

12 hours ago, Elricht Kaltwind.8796 said:

I don't play elementalist, but I love mantras the way they are on Firebrand. I use a mantras build because I find the gameplay very fun. They're powerful, and I really enjoy the balancing act between using that boosted final charge at the cost of a long casting time. It adds a bit of the risk/reward payoff that made the first game so great. In my opinion, the game could use more skills like that, rather than faceroll skillbars that effectively amount to spammy gameplay.

OK but this is the Mesmer board and nothing you said is relevant to Mesmer Mantras, especially with the heal trait.

[Mevelios.4809]

2 hours ago, Elricht Kaltwind.8796 said:

I can understand your pain then. Seems to me that they should make all mantra skills function like the Firebrand ones, without that I can't see how the reward could possibly compensate for the risk.

The way I see it, the reason is mainly because our mantras date back to the early days of the game, which were playing much slower than nowadays. Firebrand came with PoF and as such is more in line with how the game plays today, hence my remarks why wouldn't I make use of them despite our few sources of quickness. They're less reliable than the Firebrand's considering the huge cost I mentioned above - only our elite skill Time warp can get around these, but 120sec CD so it's rarely available over a lengthy fight. That's mostly out of consideration for a PvE context though; in WvW and in a measure for PvP, concentration/power break and resolve/power cleanse can be powerful tools. Still, since there's that handy tool called "competitive split" , pretty sure something can be cooked up!

Edited October 31, 2023 by Mevelios.4809

[Roadkizzle.2157]

With Mesmer mantras you lose the most powerful part of the skill if you charge it up out of combat.

I hate the Mesmer mantras and I do everything I can to avoid using them. With the support update this November I'm afraid that I may need to slot the Stability Mantra to be a good support... Hopefully I'll be able to get enough just using Well of Precognition or I think I remember F4 now gives Stability.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

4 hours ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

With Mesmer mantras you lose the most powerful part of the skill if you charge it up out of combat.

I hate the Mesmer mantras and I do everything I can to avoid using them. With the support update this November I'm afraid that I may need to slot the Stability Mantra to be a good support... Hopefully I'll be able to get enough just using Well of Precognition or I think I remember F4 now gives Stability.

When GW2 launched Mantras had to be charged. You usually had two litanies (uses) of a mantra to use. They would recharge like any other skill, but if you used the SECOND one then it would recharge about 3x as long. So rather than have a normal skill that just DID thing, you had a skill you could use twice and then you'd be out for basically the rest of the fight. I stopped using mantras then, and I've never touched them again. I'm aware they've been reworked, tweaked, nerfed, buffed, and ignored. Don't really care. I've been bitten, and now I'm shy. I don't really care what they do with Mantras at this point.

[draxynnic.3719]

10 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

When GW2 launched Mantras had to be charged. You usually had two litanies (uses) of a mantra to use. They would recharge like any other skill, but if you used the SECOND one then it would recharge about 3x as long. So rather than have a normal skill that just DID thing, you had a skill you could use twice and then you'd be out for basically the rest of the fight. I stopped using mantras then, and I've never touched them again. I'm aware they've been reworked, tweaked, nerfed, buffed, and ignored. Don't really care. I've been bitten, and now I'm shy. I don't really care what they do with Mantras at this point.

I don't think there's ever been a time that mesmer mantras behaved like that? Generally speaking, mesmer mantras were designed to use all charges and then channel to get the charges back, with the recharge for the channel usually being significantly faster than how long you'd have to wait to get the charge back otherwise. That's the distinction between mesmer and firebrand mantras - for firebrand mantras, using the final charge was supposed to be a big deal that essentially meant that the mantra was out for a while, while mesmer mantras were supposed to be channeled in-combat. The exception was the period where the previous balance team removed the channel mechanic in order to make firebrand easier to play, but in the process they forgot that mesmer mantras were balanced on the basis that you benefited from channelling them in-combat, so the mesmer mantras were basically dumpstered as a result.

I don't think there was any time when mesmer mantras punished you with a longer recharge for using the final charge. That's a firebrand thing. The big difference between them was that mesmers were supposed to use the final charge, channel in-combat, and get charges back faster that way (along with boons gained while channelling)

There is a valid question of whether the long channel times are justified in the modern game, though.

[Levetty.1279]

13 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

but in the process they forgot that mesmer mantras were balanced on the basis that you benefited from channelling them in-combat,

They literally weren't. Mesmer gains no benefit form having an entire set of skills rendered useless by having a 2 and half second cast time.

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

They literally weren't. Mesmer gains no benefit form having an entire set of skills rendered useless by having a 2 and half second cast time.

They are. Mesmers can use their mantras more often if they use them up and channel them (Mantra of Pain is technically almost never on cooldown, since the cooldown of the channel is just one second: you could theoretically fire off both charges, channel, and repeat roughly every five seconds), and the 'more effect on final charge' thing firebrands have was placed into the channel for mesmers. Mesmers are expected to channel in combat and receive benefits from doing so. So during the period when the channel was removed and mantras simply behaved as ammo skills, mesmer mantras were bad because they'd lost the on-channel effect and the ability to quickly reset charges by channeling. Some continued to be used because they were the only way to get a specific effect from a utility slot, but the group as a whole had definitely taken a big hit.

You can argue that it's bad design, but mesmer mantras are stronger with having the channel effect over having no channel but being otherwise identical. The question is whether the time taken to channel is worth the benefit. Often it isn't, granted, but when it isn't you can just avoid using the final charge.

[Kulvar.1239]

11 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

They are. Mesmers can use their mantras more often if they use them up and channel them (Mantra of Pain is technically almost never on cooldown, since the cooldown of the channel is just one second: you could theoretically fire off both charges, channel, and repeat roughly every five seconds), and the 'more effect on final charge' thing firebrands have was placed into the channel for mesmers. Mesmers are expected to channel in combat and receive benefits from doing so. So during the period when the channel was removed and mantras simply behaved as ammo skills, mesmer mantras were bad because they'd lost the on-channel effect and the ability to quickly reset charges by channeling. Some continued to be used because they were the only way to get a specific effect from a utility slot, but the group as a whole had definitely taken a big hit.

You can argue that it's bad design, but mesmer mantras are stronger with having the channel effect over having no channel but being otherwise identical. The question is whether the time taken to channel is worth the benefit. Often it isn't, granted, but when it isn't you can just avoid using the final charge.

I would rather they have less potency at half the cast time. 1.5s charge time would be better.

And the charges should have a short recharge time but do very little.

Like, Mantra of Resolve removing 3 conditions on self and allies (instead of 13 on self and 3 on allies) for 1.5s cast time.
And Power Cleanse removing 1 condition on self and allies, but with a 8s count recharge.

Or Mantra of Recovery with a 20s cooldown, 1.5s cast time, heal a bit more. While Power Return have a 10s count recharge.

[Levetty.1279]

On 11/1/2023 at 11:27 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

They are. Mesmers can use their mantras more often if they use them up and channel them (Mantra of Pain is technically almost never on cooldown, since the cooldown of the channel is just one second: you could theoretically fire off both charges, channel, and repeat roughly every five seconds), and the 'more effect on final charge' thing firebrands have was placed into the channel for mesmers. Mesmers are expected to channel in combat and receive benefits from doing so. So during the period when the channel was removed and mantras simply behaved as ammo skills, mesmer mantras were bad because they'd lost the on-channel effect and the ability to quickly reset charges by channeling. Some continued to be used because they were the only way to get a specific effect from a utility slot, but the group as a whole had definitely taken a big hit.

You can argue that it's bad design, but mesmer mantras are stronger with having the channel effect over having no channel but being otherwise identical. The question is whether the time taken to channel is worth the benefit. Often it isn't, granted, but when it isn't you can just avoid using the final charge.

You quite obviously do not play the game.