Another Reminder That the Ranked Rating System is Dumb and Incentivizes Cheating

[Yerlock.4678]

Not only does ELO hell exist, but you're punished for going anywhere near above plat 1. Forgetting the bad matchups for a sec, even if you keep winning and have more "upset" games, your rating will be severely punished the second you lose a single game. This forces even very good players to stay in plat 1 no matter what, because the grind doesn't pay off due to a loss being immeasurably worse than a win. In another game like Hearthstone, if you generally win more games than you lose you'll slowly advance through the ranks. That game considers a loss = a win in terms of losing rank vs gaining rank. But here, the game hates you if you start getting plat 2 and beyond. It is actively trying to punish you just for winning, as if that's not supposed to happen or something.

This is why Legendary ranks in main seasons is so insanely hard to get, and basically entices tryhards to cheat (no surprise there). Because you would have to win trade/ play dead hours/ play with a tryhard duo/ play on alt accounts with lower mmr to have a chance at getting it. In short, this ranked rating system entices bad behavior in pvp. 

So why do tryhards farm Legend ranks in offseasons?  Because there's less variability in offseasons than main ones. Less variables like random teammates who can throw or opponents who could potentially carry the opposing team means less things to factor in. All you need is the most busted build, plat 2 skill, and a duo with those two things also. And voila Legend ranks.

Anet, you don't need to worry about players being "toxic" seeing people's k/d's on the scoreboard. That's not a valid concern to have, people are gonna be toxic it's just how the internet works. What you need to worry about is a ranked rating system that is enticing tryhard players to cheat. 

Even in a perfectly balanced utopian meta this system will encourage toxicity and people breaking ToS.

Edited November 2, 2023 by gmmg.9210

[Endo.1652]

Hey I didn't know you played hearthstone? 

[JTGuevara.9018]

2 hours ago, gmmg.9210 said:

Not only does ELO hell exist, but you're punished for going anywhere near above plat 1. Forgetting the bad matchups for a sec, even if you keep winning and have more "upset" games, your rating will be severely punished the second you lose a single game. This forces even very good players to stay in plat 1 no matter what, because the grind doesn't pay off due to a loss being immeasurably worse than a win. In another game like Hearthstone, if you generally win more games than you lose you'll slowly advance through the ranks. That game considers a loss = a win in terms of losing rank vs gaining rank. But here, the game hates you if you start getting plat 2 and beyond. It is actively trying to punish you just for winning, as if that's not supposed to happen or something.

This is why Legendary ranks in main seasons is so insanely hard to get, and basically entices tryhards to cheat (no surprise there). Because you would have to win trade/ play dead hours/ play with a tryhard duo/ play on alt accounts with lower mmr to have a chance at getting it. In short, this ranked rating system entices bad behavior in pvp. 

So why do tryhards farm Legend ranks in offseasons?  Because there's less variability in offseasons than main ones. Less variables like random teammates who can throw or opponents who could potentially carry the opposing team means less things to factor in. All you need is the most busted build, plat 2 skill, and a duo with those two things also. And voila Legend ranks.

Anet, you don't need to worry about players being "toxic" seeing people's k/d's on the scoreboard. That's not a valid concern to have, people are gonna be toxic it's just how the internet works. What you need to worry about is a ranked rating system that is enticing tryhard players to cheat. 

Even in a perfectly balanced utopian meta this system will encourage toxicity and people breaking ToS.

Welcome to modern online multiplayer matchmaking, where people get punished for winning and matchmaking just becomes another pitiless effort to gamble against the RNG algorithms. Like...this just INVITES foul play. The system is garbage.

This is why I don't play online multiplayer games anymore.

[Deadmoose.6594]

Anet you should listen to this guy, but you probably won't.

[Spellhunter.9675]

Elohell exists only for people who can't carry or believe they are better than they actually are. 

The higher you are in the ladder the more winrate you need to get rating. Especially when playerbase is so small that there are almost no chances to full plat2 lobby. If you have 1700 rating and playing vs 1500 lobby you are expected to win 65% of the matches to atleast keep you current rating. For example, in WoW if you are aroung top 20 you usually need to win 80% of matches just to stay at your current position unless you are sniping team with same or higher rating. In Heartstone if you are above 11k rating you need to get at least top 3 in matches to stay at your current rating which translates into more than 50% winrate.

Wintrading/cheating and other stuff has nothing to do with a rating system. There are always people who will try to do this in every competitive game (not only a videogame). This is a problem of developers not giving a kitten about healthy competitive environment.
 

[DanAlcedo.3281]

When someone says that legendary rank should be achievable via grind, I already know the post is pointless. 

You get better ranks by getting better. Not by grinding more games. 

That the system tries to keep you in your skill level is by design. 

 

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

10 hours ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

Wintrading/cheating and other stuff has nothing to do with a rating system.

It absolutely does because it skews the rating system in the favor of the wintraders. When the same handful of people are hogging the leaderboard spots every single season across multiple boosted alts, unbanned & unpunished, that effects the entire rating system.

In the few times Anet has historically cracked down on wintrading; like when they removed duoq in season 9, there was seasons ending with absolutely 0 people in legendary ranking. How matches are played has a direct consequence on the rating system.

10 hours ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

There are always people who will try to do this in every competitive game (not only a videogame). This is a problem of developers not giving a kitten about healthy competitive environment.

Not every competitive game and definitely not every competitive sport (unless you happen to be in women's swimming in which case rip)

All a game or sport needs is competitive integrity and there will be little to no wintrading/match manipulation. For example; got 1k hours in a silly weeaboo game called Paladins, made it to masters, never once encountered a cheat, someone that AFKs from the get-go, or a match that I felt the outcome was manipulated and prearranged.

Or look at Counter Strike. So devoted were they to preserve competitive integrity in their game, that their match manipulators had to try and win through taking performance-enhancing drugs. Go look it up 'we were all on adderall'. 😂
And then compare that to sPvP's wintraders which just have to call a friend on discord, duoq on different-rated accounts, and boom you're ready to roll. It's 0 effort with gw2, meanwhile our bros over at CS are suffering through heart palpitations and sleepless nights just to earn their perceived competitive advantage.

So no, I don't think think there are people like this in every single game because there are some games that will ban them and are designed to be fair and competitive. A wintrader in those games is a rare fluke that probably won't last very long. A wintrader in gw2 is about as common and basic as green grass.
 

[Yerlock.4678]

8 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

When someone says that legendary rank should be achievable via grind, I already know the post is pointless. 

You get better ranks by getting better. Not by grinding more games. 

That the system tries to keep you in your skill level is by design. 

 

Well I mean, ranked is already a grind even if you're going tryhard and literally cheating simply due to the amount of required games you need to be on the leaderboards. If you don't get your rating clobbered with a single loss in higher ratings than there's less incentive to cheat. This is all in Anets interest if they gave a kitten, but alas. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

15 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

You get better ranks by getting better. Not by grinding more games. 

 

17 hours ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

Elohell exists only for people who can't carry or believe they are better than they actually are. 

I would love to see conquest ratings for you both at end of season--they better at least be mid-plat 2+ and not more than 150 - 160 games played.  Also, must never be in a duo the entire season.  

Otherwise, ELO hell does exist and 99% in SoloQ are stuck in high-g2-g3 unless you grind enough games and then game the system through decay to stay plat 1.  Above that dedicated skilled/meta duo and/or off hours + massive game grinding is a requirement (for example last season some in the top 5-10 had like 700 games played).

Edited November 3, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[DanAlcedo.3281]

17 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

I would love to see conquest ratings for you both at end of season--they better at least be plat 2 and not more than 150 - 160 games played.  Also, must never be in a duo the entire season.  

Otherwise, ELO hell does exist and 99% in SoloQ are stuck in g2-g3 unless you grind enough games and then game the system through decay to stay plat 1.  Above that dedicated skilled/meta duo and/or off hours + massive game grinding is a requirement (for example last season some in the top 5-10 had like 700 games played).

The system give you a number to determine you skill level. 

If your real life skill level matches said number and you don't improve your real skill, why should your ingame number increase? 

That's my point. People think grinding games should magically increase the ingame skill number. 

Add that you also can't rise high above the rest of the crowd without meta gaming the system. By design. 

A system that is just " play enough and you get the highest rank"  is un-competitive. 

But the system we have now is just a coin flip simulator anyway. Which is the reason it's unsuccessful and should not be taken seriously. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by DanAlcedo.3281

[Gotejjeken.1267]

19 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

The system give you a number to determine you skill level. 

If your real life skill level matches said number and you don't improve your real skill, why should your ingame number increase? 

That's my point. People think grinding games should magically increase the ingame skill number. 

Add that you also can't rise high above the rest of the crowd without meta gaming the system. By design. 

A system that is just " play enough and you get the highest rank"  is un-competitive. 

But the system we have now is just a coin flip simulator anyway. Which is the reason it's unsuccessful and should not be taken seriously. 

I think I understand now, and to most of it I agree.  Grinding games shouldn't yield a higher rank but here it does because the 'skill rating' is meaningless since it also relies on 4 other people.  

They would need better criteria for individual rankings for it to have any merit.  

[DanAlcedo.3281]

14 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I think I understand now, and to most of it I agree.  Grinding games shouldn't yield a higher rank but here it does because the 'skill rating' is meaningless since it also relies on 4 other people.  

They would need better criteria for individual rankings for it to have any merit.  

Having a Matchmaker at all is bad in my opinion. 

If I'm better then 90% of players, my win rate should reflect that. (not implying I'm that good) 

Not this forced 50/50 win rates BS. 

But that's because of solo Q. If it was mandatory to form groups of 5,we would not have that problem. 

Team Q. Random matchmaker. That would be awesome. 

Sure, noobs would get destroyed but improvement would also get reflected ingame. Get better, win more. 

 

[Shagie.7612]

9 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Not this forced 50/50 win rates BS. 

This literally doesn't exist.

If you're getting 50/50 then you're at your skill level, roughly, at least after enough games are played.
Get better and you'll win more than 50% until you reach your skill level again.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

55 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

This literally doesn't exist.

If you're getting 50/50 then you're at your skill level, roughly, at least after enough games are played.
Get better and you'll win more than 50% until you reach your skill level again.

The goal of the matchmaker is to create balanced match ups. 

This means a 50% win chance for both teams. 

The reason someone has a higher then 50% winrate is because their real life skill is higher then there ingame Elo. 

Because now, the game made by the matchmaker is not actually 50/50.

When your Elo reaches your IRL skill, the population is big enough for the matchmaker to work and you are not gaming the system, with enough games played, you should get to 50% win rate. 

Any outlier from that means the system doesn't work properly. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by DanAlcedo.3281

[Spellhunter.9675]

2 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I would love to see conquest ratings for you both at end of season--they better at least be mid-plat 2+ and not more than 150 - 160 games played.  Also, must never be in a duo the entire season.  

Previous 5v5 season I got 1612 170 matches played on power reaper, core condi necro, condi harb, about 20 matches on core sup guard and about 5 matches on willblender. I probably played 5-10 matches with duo at first half of the season. About 140 matches were on stream.

I mean 170 matches total.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Spellhunter.9675

[Gotejjeken.1267]

2 minutes ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

Previous 5v5 season I got 1612 170 matches played on power reaper, core condi necro, condi harb, about 20 matches on core sup guard and about 5 matches on willblender. I probably played 5-10 matches with duo at first half of the season. About 140 matches were on stream.

So still some duo games, some off-hours matches, 170 games played (at least 20 over required), and on some good/safe specs--only to barely graze plat 2.  

You see where that is going right? Considering you stream you think you would be high plat 2 or plat 3...but end up just above high p1 that most can get by grinding games and decay dodging.

This tells me ELO hell exists, because as I mention before, average non-streamer that doesn't grind out games / decay dodge / off-hours dodge is going to most likely end up in g3 or somewhere mid to low p1 if they only Solo Q and are skilled. 

[Spellhunter.9675]

6 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

So still some duo games, some off-hours matches, 170 games played (at least 20 over required), and on some good/safe specs--only to barely graze plat 2.  

You see where that is going right? Considering you stream you think you would be high plat 2 or plat 3...but end up just above high p1 that most can get by grinding games and decay dodging.

This tells me ELO hell exists, because as I mention before, average non-streamer that doesn't grind out games / decay dodge / off-hours dodge is going to most likely end up in g3 or somewhere mid to low p1 if they only Solo Q and are skilled. 

You forgot to say that I used voodoo and my viewers deliberately lost matches against me.

[Khalisto.5780]

i dont blame the algorithm, i blame all the years of ignoring abuses and obvious things like afking and bots that made old and new players leave the game

not to forget that before cmc the patches were like every 9 month and they often would not only fail to fix the broken things but bring some more to the table.

I still feel devs are focusing on the "competitive" scene refusing to remove things that are hurting the game like duo q while they should be focusing more on the new player experience.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Khalisto.5780

[Last Crab.6054]

Duo q has two ways of messing up the mm.

One is putting groups against complete solo.

Two is how duo q can lower their average rating with a booster account. (Lower rating to "boost" other against baddies)

Playing off hours messes with the mm too as it expands until it finds a match and that is normally a lower rated match, and combine that with a smurf duo...profit.

There are many problems with the way the rating system works, and it really is only those who abuse the work around mentioned above that will puff out their chest and scoff.

They don't want their cheez prestige to crumbled, and how they don't realize most pvp players despise them is beyond my comprehension. 

[oujiboardspamname.1932]

Snipe streamers for good games 

Edited November 3, 2023 by oujiboardspamname.1932
I only say this because it's gradually becoming true.

[Chase.8415]

The main issue with the games ranking system is that ArenaNet needs to periodically adjust the tiers based of bell curve and population.

It makes no sense to make 90% of your playerbase in gold and then just even crossing into platinum causes you to be in the top 1% of the game. 

Tiers should be rebalanced to be like this instead:

Bronze: Bottom 25%
Silver: Next 35% (up to 60% percentile)
Gold: Next 30% (up to 90% percentile)
Platinum: Next 9% (up to 99% percentile)
Legendary: Top 1%

[Dickinson.7368]

Another season that allow premades another season that ranking don't mean kitten. :)

[Dickinson.7368]

On 11/3/2023 at 6:20 AM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

I would love to see conquest ratings for you both at end of season--they better at least be mid-plat 2+ and not more than 150 - 160 games played.  Also, must never be in a duo the entire season.  

Otherwise, ELO hell does exist and 99% in SoloQ are stuck in high-g2-g3 unless you grind enough games and then game the system through decay to stay plat 1.  Above that dedicated skilled/meta duo and/or off hours + massive game grinding is a requirement (for example last season some in the top 5-10 had like 700 games played).

Good-luck with that, i doubt there is a single person above even in P3 that's completely solo.
My last season offer still stands tho, for anyone who want to make those who're against duo-Q to make a fresh account and make it even to P3 completely solo and upload all matches on YT as proof. :)

[Bunbury.8472]

7 hours ago, Chase.8415 said:

The main issue with the games ranking system is that ArenaNet needs to periodically adjust the tiers based of bell curve and population.

It makes no sense to make 90% of your playerbase in gold and then just even crossing into platinum causes you to be in the top 1% of the game. 

Tiers should be rebalanced to be like this instead:

Bronze: Bottom 25%
Silver: Next 35% (up to 60% percentile)
Gold: Next 30% (up to 90% percentile)
Platinum: Next 9% (up to 99% percentile)
Legendary: Top 1%

new accounts start with 1200 rating, gold 1

consider that for a second. just think about how much that ruins both matchmaking and the new player experience