Points Lost Should Scale Based On How Badly You Lost

[Deadmoose.6594]

Came up with this idea in another thread but it deserves its own:

Points lost should scale based on how badly you lost.

As some examples, and this isn't necessary well thought out but I'll give it a go:

500 v 450-499 = -3 points to losers

500 v 400-499 = -5 points to losers

500 v 399-350 = -11 points to losers

500 v 349-300 = -13 points to losers

500 v 299-250 = -19 points to losers

500 v 249-0 = -21-28 points to losers

 

This would do several beneficial things to matchmaking and the conquest game mode in general:

• It'll blur the 50/50 win/loss system a bit so that you'll actually see which matches were very close and then individual players can think back on a loss and ask themselves what could've happened differently in order to get that win or made it a closer match
• Take the onus off of the individual high ranked player(s) in the match to carry, as they will now suffer the same penalty as the rest of the team if there is a loss
• Essentially make afk'ing nonexistent in the game mode. Losing by a little is way better than losing by a lot, so afk'ing is going to be a really bad move. I'm sure it'll still happen, especially those who take on a personal grudge against someone else on their team and do it out of spite, but it will happen WAY less
• The community will start to appreciate a match more, if it was a close game and you only get hit by a -3 or so, you're not going to be as pissed about losing that match. You'll get hit by the negative points but since it won't hurt as bad, you'll feel that your efforts for making it a close game mattered

Some unknowns:

• How much would the current system have to change to implement this new system?
• Can anyone think of any negatives with this system?

Edited November 2, 2023 by Deadmoose.6594

[jdawgie.1835]

Hey @Deadmoose.6594 Guess what Man? I agree with you whole heartedly here. Loosing 500-490ish just to take a -29 hit to rating is such a trash things. Totally disheartening and why so many afk. Them not doing this is why people give up once they recognize its not a W. If the rating lost is the same either way best option is to get out as fast as possible GG go next and get into a new match. Great post man 10/10. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

I like the core of this.  If only there was a way to further punish people who dont try, without harming the people willing to do something. 

Now you're talkin. ❤️

Edited November 2, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Curse.2846]

I liked this post just because of the myth, the legend, the goat of all goats>>>>DeadMoose !!!

What a goated guy I cant believe I live in the same era as him *_*

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

It's a great idea, but it should swing both ways I think. If you lost but you tried, you should lose less. If you won and you're a big part of the reason your team won, you should gain more.

Much better than relying entirely on RNG like the current rating system. It's dated and archaic in the worst way and an excuse for people to AFK.

2 hours ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

Can anyone think of any negatives with this system?

I can't, but the confuse bots 😕😕😕just might, but they won't tell you what exactly just add more 😕😕😕

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

54 minutes ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

It's a great idea, but it should swing both ways I think. If you lost but you tried, you should lose less. If you won and you're a big part of the reason your team won, you should gain more.

Much better than relying entirely on RNG like the current rating system. It's dated and archaic in the worst way and an excuse for people to AFK.

I can't, but the confuse bots 😕😕😕just might, but they won't tell you what exactly just add more 😕😕😕

Grading on a curve, seems fair enough given the teams are random. 

This would be where I say "top X on winning team gets more, top X on losing team loses less but yknow 

😕😕😕😕

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

30 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Grading on a curve, seems fair enough given the teams are random. 

This would be where I say "top X on winning team gets more, top X on losing team loses less but yknow 

😕😕😕😕

You just made sense and told the truth, that's a definite 😕
😕😕😕😕 I'm a typical PvP forum-goer and there's nothing that confuses me more than truth, common sense, and effort. 😕😕😕😕

I'm so confused that I thought this was Runescape the entire time. I already forgot what I came here to do so I'll just give purple cup for reminding me its time for my daily serving of Starbucks slime
Bless 🙏 

[Eddie.9143]

losing is losing, whether it's by an inch or a mile. handout generation post

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Eddie.9143 said:

losing is losing, whether it's by an inch or a mile. handout generation post

Nobody asked for a handout, just a buffer. You're still losing points, you're just not punished equally because you can't pick your teammates.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Deadmoose.6594]

28 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Nobody asked for a handout, just a buffer. You're still losing points, you're just not punished equally because you can't pick your teammates.

^ Well said.

Thanks for the purple cups all, appreciate it. The GM response was that they actually do read forum posts "every day" and take things into consideration based on how the community perceives things, so maybe this is a step in the right direction???

[DanAlcedo.3281]

The part I disagree with, is that this idea will make afks nonexistent. 

Most of them will still be Afk and the few who do start fighting again probably die a few years sooner from all the rage they build up from being forced to fight a loosing game. 

 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Only thing to add is top stats should factor into this.  

Essentially, if you lose 490-500 and have like 3 top stats you shouldn't really lose any rank (maybe -1? lol).  

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

10/10 delusion. Keep up good work, it was a fun read.
The reality:

• People will exploit that kitten to hell > bigger MU manipulation "Hey, how about we got to the smallest bracket of point lose, like we will get it to 450:400 and u still win and we won't lose as much"
• People WILL afk one way or another since they don't care about winning or losing in long run > faster lose > faster next queue
• 0 reason to tryhard either way > no rewards for winning or trying
• Matchmaking will be worse in long run, since people that carry teams will inflate ranks of teammates by closing the point differences, simply lowering the penalty

To all other that propose "top stats" that kitten can be farmed, another form of rank manipulation.

[Deadmoose.6594]

4 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

10/10 delusion. Keep up good work, it was a fun read.
The reality:

• People will exploit that kitten to hell > bigger MU manipulation "Hey, how about we got to the smallest bracket of point lose, like we will get it to 450:400 and u still win and we won't lose as much"
• People WILL afk one way or another since they don't care about winning or losing in long run > faster lose > faster next queue
• 0 reason to tryhard either way > no rewards for winning or trying
• Matchmaking will be worse in long run, since people that carry teams will inflate ranks of teammates by closing the point differences, simply lowering the penalty

To all other that propose "top stats" that kitten can be farmed, another form of rank manipulation.

Good thing I have a reply to all of this. So 1/10 Critical Thinking skills, good job.

 

• You actually think that teams will let the other team have 400 v 450 points and I'm delusional? Teams have come back from 100 v 400, what makes you think people in a game as close as 400 v 450 are going to discuss winning and losing while the match is on going? Who is going to have time for that instead of you know, actually tying to win. NEXT!
• Wtf are you talking about? This doesn't even make sense. NEXT!
• Come on man. These aren't good points. NEXT!
• Disagree. It'll make matchmaking more balanced. Even if you're getting carried on a team of 5, you have to have some kind of level of competency in order to get a win. In other words, you can't be complete trash. If you think about this system in terms of several games played, a carry person is more apt to win so their rank will more likely increase, whereas a non-carry will eventually scale depending on how good or bad they are.
• I agree with the top stats argument, top stats can be farmed so shouldn't equate into any pvp reward/ranking outcome.

 

Edit: Just wanted to discuss a little more by how I think this would play out...say you are a gold 3 but obviously you're paired with a lot of gold 2s and lower. Those less skilled players are going to make you lose games unless you can carry. However, if you all do your best, you can score more points and take less of a hit to all of your rankings. So wait...does that mean you are actually rewarded for your efforts in pvp? Yes, yes it does. You're no longer lumped into those less skilled players and severely demoted and forced into the 50/50 system. The system will still try to make you win/lose 50/50, but its your job to try to overcome the games you are designated to lose. There are a lot of variables at play so there's always a chance. Sometimes your team will still get stomped too and your rating will take a big hit.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Deadmoose.6594

[Endo.1652]

This is like the first topic I ever agreed with you on. Nice job man!

[Endo.1652]

5 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Only thing to add is top stats should factor into this.  

Essentially, if you lose 490-500 and have like 3 top stats you shouldn't really lose any rank (maybe -1? lol).  

I don't think top stats should be a big factor at all. There are players in matches where they could make crazy good plays and hard carry the game like that, but never get top stats. While someone else can just farm top dmg by hitting a bunker spec on a side node the bunker owns all game.

[aranyics.8256]

I'm not a fan of such ideas. These are my thoughts:

• I'm not sure how losing or winning points are currently calculated, but if you play like 30 games in a season, your gain/loss should be around +- 11-15 points. That is in the 300-400 range of this proposal, which is fine.
• In the 400-500 range if you lose 3-5 points, than the winning team should also win only 3-5 points to prevent rating inflation. I definitely wouldn't want to win 3-5 points for a hard-fought victory, it seems like a punishment for winning by a small margin. The losing team is already awarded with 2 pips for their effort.
• I don't think that AFK would decrease in such system, but you may be right and there would be less AFKers. I don't know, it should be tested. But it can happen regardless of what you do. And in that case you are up for a big punishment of -20-30 points, which is a nail in the coffin after a tilting, devastating loss.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

1 hour ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

Good thing I have a reply to all of this. So 1/10 Critical Thinking skills, good job.

 

• You actually think that teams will let the other team have 400 v 450 points and I'm delusional? Teams have come back from 100 v 400, what makes you think people in a game as close as 400 v 450 are going to discuss winning and losing while the match is on going? Who is going to have time for that instead of you know, actually tying to win. NEXT!
• Wtf are you talking about? This doesn't even make sense. NEXT!
• Come on man. These aren't good points. NEXT!
• Disagree. It'll make matchmaking more balanced. Even if you're getting carried on a team of 5, you have to have some kind of level of competency in order to get a win. In other words, you can't be complete trash. If you think about this system in terms of several games played, a carry person is more apt to win so their rank will more likely increase, whereas a non-carry will eventually scale depending on how good or bad they are.
• I agree with the top stats argument, top stats can be farmed so shouldn't equate into any pvp reward/ranking outcome.

 

Edit: Just wanted to discuss a little more by how I think this would play out...say you are a gold 3 but obviously you're paired with a lot of gold 2s and lower. Those less skilled players are going to make you lose games unless you can carry. However, if you all do your best, you can score more points and take less of a hit to all of your rankings. So wait...does that mean you are actually rewarded for your efforts in pvp? Yes, yes it does. You're no longer lumped into those less skilled players and severely demoted and forced into the 50/50 system. The system will still try to make you win/lose 50/50, but its your job to try to overcome the games you are designated to lose. There are a lot of variables at play so there's always a chance. Sometimes your team will still get stomped too and your rating will take a big hit.

Let me explain his second point. 

There is a difference between people wanting to win for Elo and winning for the sake of winning. 

Take the legendary Amulet for example. 

Only winning matters. What Elo level you have doesn't matter. 

In this situation, if the person thinks the game is lost, it's more beneficial to loose as fast as possible. In order to flip the coin again faster. 

Achievement farming in general works this way. 

And no, these are not just some handful of players. There are more then you think. 

 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

49 minutes ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

Good thing I have a reply to all of this. So 1/10 Critical Thinking skills, good job.

 

• You actually think that teams will let the other team have 400 v 450 points and I'm delusional? Teams have come back from 100 v 400, what makes you think people in a game as close as 400 v 450 are going to discuss winning and losing while the match is on going? Who is going to have time for that instead of you know, actually tying to win. NEXT!
• Wtf are you talking about? This doesn't even make sense. NEXT!
• Come on man. These aren't good points. NEXT!
• Disagree. It'll make matchmaking more balanced. Even if you're getting carried on a team of 5, you have to have some kind of level of competency in order to get a win. In other words, you can't be complete trash. If you think about this system in terms of several games played, a carry person is more apt to win so their rank will more likely increase, whereas a non-carry will eventually scale depending on how good or bad they are.
• I agree with the top stats argument, top stats can be farmed so shouldn't equate into any pvp reward/ranking outcome.

 

Edit: Just wanted to discuss a little more by how I think this would play out...say you are a gold 3 but obviously you're paired with a lot of gold 2s and lower. Those less skilled players are going to make you lose games unless you can carry. However, if you all do your best, you can score more points and take less of a hit to all of your rankings. So wait...does that mean you are actually rewarded for your efforts in pvp? Yes, yes it does. You're no longer lumped into those less skilled players and severely demoted and forced into the 50/50 system. The system will still try to make you win/lose 50/50, but its your job to try to overcome the games you are designated to lose. There are a lot of variables at play so there's always a chance. Sometimes your team will still get stomped too and your rating will take a big hit.

Your reply doesn't provide anything else beside another delusions though.

• Teams will more openly "win-trade" or you can call it "least-lost-points-trade", if you fail to see that then that's your problem.
• People that were there to just get some farm, won't really care about your idea in the slightest, thus afking won't be affected, another problem you fail to see.
• Stick and carrot, there's a stick, where's a carrot? No, "less lose points" is not a carrot, it's smaller stick.
• That's your delusion. Lessening penalty will mean in long run that people will take much longer to drop to their real rankings. Meaning, even more people WILL be in the same matches as high ranking people.

Make PvP into 5v5 teams, 1v1, 2v2, 5v5 randoms and call it a day.
You could also think about creating personal rating based only on your own performance in matches and game rating based on win/lose of pvp match outcome.
Like you could be highly ranked for personal perfomance that makes you pretty much carry teams, but be mid in game rating because of team mates.
PvP needs more people, need some basic guide inbuilt in the game, so new people can go and learn the ropes.

[arazoth.7290]

18 hours ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

Came up with this idea in another thread but it deserves its own:

Points lost should scale based on how badly you lost.

As some examples, and this isn't necessary well thought out but I'll give it a go:

500 v 450-499 = -3 points to losers

500 v 400-499 = -5 points to losers

500 v 399-350 = -11 points to losers

500 v 349-300 = -13 points to losers

500 v 299-250 = -19 points to losers

500 v 249-0 = -21-28 points to losers

 

This would do several beneficial things to matchmaking and the conquest game mode in general:

• It'll blur the 50/50 win/loss system a bit so that you'll actually see which matches were very close and then individual players can think back on a loss and ask themselves what could've happened differently in order to get that win or made it a closer match
• Take the onus off of the individual high ranked player(s) in the match to carry, as they will now suffer the same penalty as the rest of the team if there is a loss
• Essentially make afk'ing nonexistent in the game mode. Losing by a little is way better than losing by a lot, so afk'ing is going to be a really bad move. I'm sure it'll still happen, especially those who take on a personal grudge against someone else on their team and do it out of spite, but it will happen WAY less
• The community will start to appreciate a match more, if it was a close game and you only get hit by a -3 or so, you're not going to be as pissed about losing that match. You'll get hit by the negative points but since it won't hurt as bad, you'll feel that your efforts for making it a close game mattered

Some unknowns:

• How much would the current system have to change to implement this new system?
• Can anyone think of any negatives with this system?

Gaining rating isn't the problem. The problem is unbalanced matchmaking rating wise, wintrading, afkers. The unbalanced matchmaking is mostly due to not enough players. If they could maybe fuse NA with EU pvp matchmaking for more players during different times of days. Also I am pretty sure, people won't change their afking mentality 😅. 

More attention to wintraders, afkers banning would help. The report button in game doesn't do much. But make screens or video of the situation with player account name and put directly on gw2 support report option. Then they will look into it more likely

 

 

Another idea option : Give the other players rating from the afk player(s) in your team or if they dcd whole game even. But then they also need a better system to detect afk players, dcd players is ez to recognize for the system 

 

[arazoth.7290]

8 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Your reply doesn't provide anything else beside another delusions though.

• Teams will more openly "win-trade" or you can call it "least-lost-points-trade", if you fail to see that then that's your problem.
• People that were there to just get some farm, won't really care about your idea in the slightest, thus afking won't be affected, another problem you fail to see.
• Stick and carrot, there's a stick, where's a carrot? No, "less lose points" is not a carrot, it's smaller stick.
• That's your delusion. Lessening penalty will mean in long run that people will take much longer to drop to their real rankings. Meaning, even more people WILL be in the same matches as high ranking people.

Make PvP into 5v5 teams, 1v1, 2v2, 5v5 randoms and call it a day.
You could also think about creating personal rating based only on your own performance in matches and game rating based on win/lose of pvp match outcome.
Like you could be highly ranked for personal perfomance that makes you pretty much carry teams, but be mid in game rating because of team mates.
PvP needs more people, need some basic guide inbuilt in the game, so new people can go and learn the ropes.

Personal rating could be nice yes. But ln what will they rate it? Only on stats isn't always the best since people can try to only get most stats and that's it

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

2 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Personal rating could be nice yes. But ln what will they rate it? Only on stats isn't always the best since people can try to only get most stats and that's it

That's the real question that I don't really have a clear answer for.
The lazy way would be just "top stats", but as I wrote that thing can be farmed. I was thinking about like an algorithm that would calculate your overall performance, like it'd take into consideration that you've managed to kill certain player at certain time and game started to snowball into your favor, ressing a player in team fight and then winning it (points generated via killing enemy), stomping enemy to revive your teammate, contesting a point and winning game in 495v495 situation, etc.
But that's a very hard way since you'd need to hard write quite a lot of possibilities and then also calculate points out of it.
So in conclusion, it's not happening sadly.

[arazoth.7290]

11 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

That's the real question that I don't really have a clear answer for.
The lazy way would be just "top stats", but as I wrote that thing can be farmed. I was thinking about like an algorithm that would calculate your overall performance, like it'd take into consideration that you've managed to kill certain player at certain time and game started to snowball into your favor, ressing a player in team fight and then winning it (points generated via killing enemy), stomping enemy to revive your teammate, contesting a point and winning game in 495v495 situation, etc.
But that's a very hard way since you'd need to hard write quite a lot of possibilities and then also calculate points out of it.
So in conclusion, it's not happening sadly.

What I am thinking about, but probably too advanced to put it in game. Collecting algorithms from top players their decision making from many different situations. Adding a degree meter on it from best to worst decision making you do for your team. This would need many results to get the many decision makings in different situations. And on top of that calculated your stats to compare with the decision making how much more you contributed in comparison.

I am pretty sure this would be to bothersome for them to implent, they rather wouldn't 😂

[Gotejjeken.1267]

4 hours ago, Endorphin.9147 said:

I don't think top stats should be a big factor at all. There are players in matches where they could make crazy good plays and hard carry the game like that, but never get top stats. While someone else can just farm top dmg by hitting a bunker spec on a side node the bunker owns all game.

Sure, but if you are bunkering side node you are not allowing the enemy to have it and possibly drawing their attention away from other nodes.  It's why far node camping works so well as a lot of people will feed.

If you still manage to lose while doing that, then I don't see why you shouldn't get credit for the top stats.  

As in, I've never seen anyone in an aisle getting top stats unless the entire team is spawn camping the other.  Usually, even if you 'farm' it you have to be on a build that can generate a lot of kills, healing, bunker, etc.

Even if it is opposite as you say, where someone is fighting a bunker on a node all game--at least they are doing something.  If you AFK or rage you wouldn't be getting any top stat and so should lose more points.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

11 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

The "reality:"

• People WILL afk one way or another since they don't care about winning or losing in long run > faster lose > faster next queue
• 0 reason to tryhard either way > no rewards for winning or trying
• To all other that propose "top stats" that kitten can be farmed, another form of rank manipulation.

Some truth in these points, these are grounded in objective reality.

11 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

• People will exploit that kitten to hell > bigger MU manipulation "Hey, how about we got to the smallest bracket of point lose, like we will get it to 450:400 and u still win and we won't lose as much"
• Matchmaking will be worse in long run, since people that carry teams will inflate ranks of teammates by closing the point differences, simply lowering the penalty

This is hardly reality, but anxious prediction

The same you wrote about AFKs could apply to both of these. People playing this game are already engaging in match manipulation and it stands to reason they will continue to do so until they are stopped. This fantasy scenario; while potentially true, is redundant when people are going to arrive at the exact same outcome anyway.

Same goes for matchmaking. It's already nonexistent because the overall player population is so low and the plat population even lower, like <100. There is not enough players to create evenly-matched matches, making matchmaking already completely random.
Rating was already inflated too, when they added back poopy duoq.

The most realistic and pessimistic outlook is that being awarded and penalized based on effort and contribution would change absolutely nothing for better or for worse because we've already reached a total nadir.

The less realistic, yet more optimistic outlook is that wintraders should be banned, AFKs should get nothing just for being there then also be banned, and duoq should get gone. Then after, there just might be a real tangible benefit to making rating gain/loss tied to personal contribution rather than basing it entirely off of RNG - whoever you are matched with and against like it is now.

12 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

10/10 delusion. Keep up good work

@Deadmoose.6594 It really is good work. If a forumie is calling you delusional, you can rest assured that you are; without a doubt, doing something right.

Complacency on the other hand tends to be tantamount to a lack of attentiveness, which is very much at the heart of a delusion-prone personality. Reject, pray for, and forgive 🙏