The double standards of balancing

[Undeadrage.5106]

Conveniently forgetting that pmech had self quick and mech did more dps than casual players only auto attacking.

Cvirt got nerfed too but on the sustain as it had 5sec distort and block.

[Whelium.4706]

Lol here we go again 🤣 his class has PEW PEW and mine only goes pew... These things will always fluctuate people ALWAYS. Just go with it, one season this will be strong for so long then it will drop off and the next op class will be dominating or even two. Balancing a game is not an easy task just be happy that there are people trying to make this game run smooth and working hard to keep it as balanced as possible. Take note when something is insanely game breaking they do fix it asap. But I guess one is always right in ones own mind 😜

[Astralporing.1957]

17 hours ago, Mewone.3247 said:

This has to be a troll or are you really that high on copium? Or maybe you have no idea what you are talking about, can you tell me your experience with pugs and cm strikes?

My experience is that on random pug strike squads i still see power mech overperforming most virtu players. Poor player on (nerfed to the ground) pmech build is able to perform better than the same poor player on the oh-so-great virtu. That was what made mech an issue to some player (and boon to others) - it was never about its top performance (because it didn't have that even when it was at it best). It was always about its floor performance.

(notice: i am not doing CMs, and often get in very pooor quality squads - i am aware that the experience at the top of the ladder is different)

Edited November 6, 2023 by Astralporing.1957

[DanAlcedo.3281]

I personally don't see that many Virtuosos in my strikes. Atleast not to the number that I would notice an overuse. 

That medal goes to Reaper and alac heal Druid. These is see in like 95% of strikes. 

But by far not the extreme we had with mech. Not even close 

[Icefyer.9208]

14 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Right now Mechanist is still a very strong Condi and Condi Alac DPS pick and is still a rather popular AlacHeal, because it is still a strong option.

The alacheal build is what got me into it to begin with myself. I've played engineer since the beta off and on, occasionally taking long breaks to fight burnout. I myself have cerebral palsy, which made the old "wear 4 kits and piano till your hands fall off" builds a complete nightmare that I'm glad the game has moved away from. I'm glad there's low-intensity builds that work for support as well as damage on engineer, and I like the fact the mech does a solid chunk of the support by itself so I don't have to juggle like I did back then outside of intense situations. 

However, it was pretty ridiculous at its peak. While I feel they did over-nerf rifle something nasty because of one overperforming spec instead of looking at the spec itself to the point that rifle barely functions these days as far as I can tell, that's just a trend of gutting other engineers because of one overperforming spec. They did it a long time ago when Holosmith came out, nailing traits that weren't holosmith in an attempt to curb its extremely high dps at the time.

Surely there's some kind of middle-ground that can nerf the spec without completely shafting the others on the class. Aren't they able to separate skills and traits affecting different specs in different ways, like they recently did with engineer sword changing based on you not having a heat-bar?

[Crowfang.8529]

What's the point of the OP?

Virtu isn't in the top 10 in benchmarks. None of mesmer's specs are. That's for PvE.

For PvP, all mesmer specs are underperforming.

Mesmer is actually only good in WvW and its main tools are going to be nerfed. So stop mybe?

[Forum Moderator.3419]

Hi Everyone,
Just a reminder to keep it civil. I've removed some posts.
Regards.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

1 hour ago, Mewone.3247 said:

Why are you still in this thread?

How I am supposed to respond to this? The confused smiley 2 community has done it again. You claim I disregard every point by saying people are clueless and then you post this? I literally debunk every point made I come across while you are just making up more nonsense and you never ever respond to any of my debunks. This is not how a conversation works, you cannot just post more stupidity and waste my time. Dont be that guy. Also, get me some Power Mech cm strike logs that showcase their usefulness so this discussion can continue or stay out of this topic. This is the least you can do after all that dialogue.

You're posting on a public game forum, people are allowed to respond and even make fun of you if they consider your point stupid. If you want to whine about something being too OP in Strike CMs then post it where it belongs, in Instanced PvE, not general discussion - where this was originally posted - which includes the entire game, not only Strike CMs, so don't complain about people here not only talking about Strike CMs when it comes to balance. 
My point with Mech still stands. If you want to bring up something as an example to being ruined, don't bring up Mech, bring up something that got nerfed to hell. 

[Passerbye.6291]

Before anything else, as everyone else also pointed out, condi virtuoso does need a nerf.
That being said, comparing it to mechanist is beyond ignorant at this point and you must see this. When first implemented, power mechanist did 38k sustain dps (which was top tier at the time) with minimal effort while having good burst and cleave. You could do 34-35k spamming weapon skills and mine, then they even made the mech skills auto castable, as if it had much of a gameplay in the first place. It also had self quickness, ungodly amounts of CC (later on on auto cast) to the point that mechs casually topped CC damage in every squad I ran without even trying, had 300-500 self heal per second, on demand teleport. On top of all this, mechanist had a 30k auto attack only build when most dedicated dps builds were around 36-38k with some outliers near 40.

On 11/5/2023 at 7:51 PM, Mewone.3247 said:

This point is so stupid I have hardly an idea how to respond if at all. Reaper, slb and other specs bench for almost 30k with auto attacks, by your logic these specs are broken. But they are not because nobody cares what the DPS of 1 APM is. If you think people who lack the mental capacity to press a single button did well in cm strikes on Mechanist, you are wrong. By usage only anyone with any knowledge of game balancing would understand that the current state leaves much to desire and there is a reason why it is this way. The spec is easy to get into and not even hard to master. Range damage has a huge advantage in this game because of dps uptime, so why does condi Virtuoso bench this high in the first place?

Reaper involves actually going into shroud to do 30k or so damage with auto attacks alone I believe, and it is not ranged. Most other builds with high amounts of auto attack only damage involves some form of extra input, however low it may be, something like shiro revenant or axe mirage generating clones before auto attacking, both of which also tend to be melee. All this while ignoring the amount of powercreep we have in the game btw. Oh btw, mechanist with hammer still does 26k dps with auto attacks alone with absolutely no other input.
By comparison, condi virtuoso, while simple, requires a lot more effort to perform at a similar level compared to mech prior to its nerfs. Whenever I see someone upset about condi virtuoso overperforming, rightfully so mind you, and switch to it, they end up doing significantly less damage than I do, and I don't even play condi virtuoso perfectly.

On 11/5/2023 at 8:24 PM, Mewone.3247 said:

On 11/5/2023 at 8:09 PM, Cyninja.2954 said:

power mech had a huge component of its damage tied to the mech (around 12-15k worth of it at its peak). The pet was always on target, couldn't be cced, and remains to this day near unkill able

I think this is tied to the point above and really only affects players who are afk while playing, otherwise it doesnt matter that you have 12k AA plus12k AA from the Mech vs. 30k AA on a different class

The problem with this assumption is that you seem to be under the illusion that people do 90%+ benchmark damage in all groups, which is far from true, I fairly frequently end up doing top dps while playing boon dps, with which I barely do 90% of bench. And before you keep spamming "CM strikes", yes, this includes CM content I do as well, albeit at a lower frequency than normal modes.

5 hours ago, Mewone.3247 said:

Dude who cares? Seriously, I gave you the usage in my opening post and nobody cares about your open world and normal mode annecdotes.

While open world is likely not a factor for high-end performance balancing, normal mode content such as strikes and raids definitely are factored in. You don't balance the output of classes solely based on challenge modes, especially not strikes alone. Both common KO CM and HT CM strats heavily favour virtuosos, so much so that if virtuoso only benched 36-38k, it would still be favoured over most other options.

2 hours ago, Mewone.3247 said:

Maybe people who enter this discussion should leave a different argument than "from my experience 1 year ago when i played these 50 man open world meta events" when I am explicitly talking about cm strikes that most of the people here have never seen.

As said, CM strikes are not the only content where balance matters, I truly don't know why you insist on the premise that somehow strike CMs should be what the classes are balanced around. Are we to ignore fractals, their CMs, raids, their CMs? Because as much as you suggest condi virtuoso has really quick ramp up, which it does, there are still quite a lot of fights where if you bring a condi virtuoso, you'll do laughably less damage than any decent-performing power dps.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Passerbye.6291

[Ancient Words.6123]

Hey, I'm a teacher at a private school. One of the classes I teach is about social and emotional awareness and wellness, especially as those pertain to developing your public persona.

 

When they're struggling with big emotions, it can be hard for children to separate the information being given from the one giving the information, which I think is what's happening here - anybody who doesn't completely agree with Mewone is getting attacked because they seem to feel that anything against the information they presented is an attack against them.

 

Mewone, an important life skill to learn is that the information isn't the person, and the person isn't the information! You can have a discussion about information without attacking the person presenting it! You can also have a conversation with somebody you don't think is very smart without pointing it out!

 

I believe you can do it!

 

That said, one piece of information that hasn't been brought to the table, and brought me to the table, is that ArenaNet is known in the MMO community for offering some lower APM options that are viable in endgame content so that gamers with disabilities or other issues can still play. For many, this is a good thing. Low APM classes generally aren't too DPS, just like CVirt isn't even in the top 10, and so higher APM classes are still rewarded for their effort, but that's balanced with a need for inclusivity. ANet typically has a range of options to play that let you play something that fits your abilities without being more than 10-20% off the current DPS meta, and in my opinion that's a good thing. And what a wonderful thing that we're all allowed to have opinions!

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

That's what everyone was saying but he just couldn't listen lol. It was either "agree with me" or "you don't CM".

(Condi) Virtuoso was designed from the ground up as a low-intensity effective build to bring average people into end game. This isn't even some deep conspiracy secret, it was marketed from EoD day one that its main selling point was exactly that: easy buttons, big damage. With it, more average players are more confident and encouraged to pick up end game content and not be anxious about their performance.

His own fact points to this: Maybe Virtuoso has such a huge representation in CM Strikes is, well, exactly because it's doing said job above? And maybe why everyone else pointing Virt not being found too often everywhere else is because there's no performance check everywhere else, and people can play whatever they want? 

With that said, Virtuoso also isn't a completely braindead spec that you can just push random buttons and be done with it. Using it will get you to an acceptable level, but from that acceptable level to benchmark level is another story. This is why people aren't as mad about it as they are about Mechs.

Edited November 6, 2023 by ZephidelGRS.9520

[Ancient Words.6123]

50 minutes ago, ZephidelGRS.9520 said:

That's what everyone was saying but he just couldn't listen lol. It was either "agree with me" or "you don't CM".

(Condi) Virtuoso was designed from the ground up as a low-intensity effective build to bring average people into end game. This isn't even some deep conspiracy secret, it was marketed from EoD day one that its main selling point was exactly that: easy buttons, big damage. With it, more average players are more confident and encouraged to pick up end game content and not be anxious about their performance.

His own fact points to this: Maybe Virtuoso has such a huge representation in CM Strikes is, well, exactly because it's doing said job above? And maybe why everyone else pointing Virt not being found too often everywhere else is because there's no performance check everywhere else, and people can play whatever they want? 

With that said, Virtuoso also isn't a completely braindead spec that you can just push random buttons and be done with it. Using it will get you to an acceptable level, but from that acceptable level to benchmark level is another story. This is why people aren't as mad about it as they are about Mechs.

Exactly! The skill floor for Mech was too low, and so despite how it would be beneficial for inclusivity, it was getting abused and so needed the nerf. Virtuoso does require input, and quite a bit more than Mech did even if you can bench 30k ish with signets and just hitting other skills off cooldown when you're fully buffed and wearing the right gear, but without proper timing and positioning you're not competetive. It allows players room to grow into that role.

 

In education theory we believe that the average human is - or at least can be in an ideal environment - intrinsically motivated. That is, your brain produces happy chemicals like endorphins and seratonin to reward you for doing something that you chose to work towards that presented a challenge to overcome. ANet does this by offering a wide variety of classes and specs that fit a wide variety of players, allows them to take part in all aspects of the game regardless of their abilities, but lets them decide what difficulty level they want to play at. This plays out with players who have to ability to perform well at high APM generally choosing high APM classes that they find personally fulfilling, and players with mid APMs playing mid APM classes that work for them, and so on. What might challenge one player might be "boring" to another, but we all have the choice to find what class works best for our abilities and interest level! It's a great system that gets talked about a lot when GW2 is brought up in discussion.

 

The big Mech issue was that it was undermining the entire system; players who could do well playing much higher APM classes were all switching to Mech because the extrinsic reward of clearing content easily was outweighing the intrinsic reward of working on a class that challenged you. While this may happen to some extent with Virtuoso, it's at such a significantly lower rate that it's simply not the same issue tha Mech was. Guild Wars 2 thrives on variety and inclusivity, so while it does need viable lower APM options for some players, it can't survive with gamebreakingly easy ones. It's up to the community and devs to figure out how that all works out, but I'm advocating for Virtuoso to remain as is, or at most a 2% DPM reduction. 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Ancient Words.6123

[Hallow.7368]

On 11/5/2023 at 10:20 AM, Mewone.3247 said:

Remember the outcry when Power Mechanist was in every raid and strike because it was easy to play, had ranged damage and good cc? Even though the actual usage numbers were inflated by support Mechs/HAM? Ever since Power Mechanist was made into an absolute joke and a million bad iterations of Mechnical Genius, most people switched to (condi) Virtuoso. Since day 1 this spec was literally just as broken as Power Mechanist but with (bursty) condi damage:

- its fully ranged (even more than Power Mech)

- it has even better pierce

- its just as easy to play

- it has all the CC and utility in the world

So why exactly is nobody crying about Virtuoso when there is hard evidence this spec runs the endgame? Can you call the balancing of the game decent when this has been true for over a year now and the only reason the average pug clears cm strikes is this build? I will give you some numbers from the current cm strikes that are a good representation because they are the only "difficult" content this game has atm:

AHcm: (Virtuso as only pure DPS option, rest in Top 5 is mixed DPS/support)

Most popular professions:

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 19.1%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Virtuoso.png		Virtuoso
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 11.07%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Herald.png		Herald
10.93%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Scourge.png		Scourge
9.96%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Mechanist.png		Mechanist
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/down.png 7.03%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Firebrand.png		Firebrand

XJJcm: (Virtuso as only pure DPS option, rest in Top 5 is mixed DPS/support)

Most popular professions:

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 27.28%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Virtuoso.png		Virtuoso
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 16.07%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Scourge.png		Scourge
10.47%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Mechanist.png		Mechanist
9.81%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Herald.png		Herald
7.82%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Firebrand.png		Firebrand

KOcm: (Virtuso as only pure DPS option, rest in Top 5 is mixed DPS/support)

Most popular professions:

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 41.97%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Virtuoso.png		Virtuoso
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 12.29%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Firebrand.png		Firebrand
10.16%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Mechanist.png		Mechanist
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/down.png 9.35%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Scourge.png		Scourge
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/down.png 7.11%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Herald.png		Herald

HTcm: (Virtu as decent damage dealer and essential utility)

Most popular professions:

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 19.8%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Virtuoso.png		Virtuoso
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 19.2%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Herald.png		Herald
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 15.42%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Vindicator.png		Vindicator
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 13.44%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Mechanist.png		Mechanist
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 12.4%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Reaper.png		Reaper

OLCcm:

Most popular professions:

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 34.34%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Virtuoso.png		Virtuoso
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 12.87%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Herald.png		Herald
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 12.34%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Scourge.png		Scourge
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 12.03%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Mechanist.png		Mechanist
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/down.png 5.75%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Firebrand.png		Firebrand

 

This picture has been cultivated because Virtuoso has never once seen any significant nerfs to its damage or utility. It is just as easy to play as ever (compared to other classes) and has no downsights. Where is the outcry and what is different to the Mechanist situation from 1 year ago?

Edit: I forgot to mention that the usage includes kills and wipes of the respective bosses which means the actual usage number of Virtuoso of successful kills is even higher. Natrually low KP groups that bring any DPS build will perform significantly worse and most likely won't clear the fight compared to Virtu stacks.

While I do agree with you entirely that condi virt is extremely kittening good especially for how easy it is.. I think you're ignoring a couple things. 

On 11/5/2023 at 10:20 AM, Mewone.3247 said:

Even though the actual usage numbers were inflated by support Mechs/HAM?

This exactly. This it's self is reason enough for the nerf because it's not healthy for the game state when you can legitimately just bring 75%-80% or more of your group as mechanist. Pretty much every single mechanist build was meta and the fact that you could just set you mech to attack the boss and then you could just go sit in a corner and it would pretty much do the fight for you was too much.

For power mech your pet literally did like 90% of your damage without having to interact with it at all and for power alac mech/HAM your pet just pulsed out boons and healing/shielding. THAT'S the reason the mech changes happened. Because it's not healthy to have a mini raid boss as an AI pet that literally plays the game for you without you having to interact with it at all. That's why they've done all the weird changes like having to be near the mech etc.

In all fairness core engi is such a disgusting mess that minus reworking basically the entire class.. the only way to make a new elite spec for engi that would attract players that otherwise wouldn't touch engi and it's extremely limited boring core weapons and it's kits with a stick they had to make basically an entirely separate class that could stand on its own without anything from core engi at all. It just happened to be too much.

And while virt could probably do with a slight tap down in power it's not consuming the overwhelming majority of slots in a group because it's just a pure DPS class. It can pickup some situationally useful core Mesmer utility skills but that's it. Other than that it's just damage and you at least have to press some buttons even if it's very clearly much easier than most other specs. If an easy to play strong DPS build was the actual reasoning for being nerfed then shiro rev would have been gutted ages ago. Those builds have literally been "turn on impossible odds and auto chain on sword until you need to use jalis for stability or something" while being way more than passable DPS for doing so since long before I ever downloaded the game.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Hallow.7368

[Puck.3697]

On 11/5/2023 at 4:00 PM, Mewone.3247 said:

This has to be a troll or are you really that high on copium? Or maybe you have no idea what you are talking about, can you tell me your experience with pugs and cm strikes?

The fact u think virt and mch is in the same ball park is the real troll. Lol

A pure dps will never match a hybrid in terms of raw dominance. It just doesn't carry the same weight im afraid, doing too much dps will never carry a fight. 

Because everything else has to be perfect for virt to actually show its "OP face". Mch because it was OP in every role it simply could carry. 

This game as a whole carries more weight in hybrids / supports then it does raw dps. Hence why every dominating meta is surrounding them. 

Who dominated prior mch?. Scourge and firebrand. Lol. Who was prior them oh ye. Tempest. Lol

When has a Pure dpser actually be the dominating force of a group its been a long time. Boons add more damage then a pure dps. And for that reason alone generally means pure dps just mean less. That aint saying virt isn't OP it's just less relevent 😂

Edited November 6, 2023 by Puck.3697

[aetemes.2603]

Not sure what is the core concern here...if virtuoso is nerfed you'll feel ok and vindicated??

What I gathered from this post is the "dumbing" down of this game ever since EoD took off is what makes the game extremley boring to me now...they wanted to attract new players by dumbing down mechanics to allow them to catch up and need no investment in any brain power to "learn the nooks and crannies" of the game...and made all the "if you are a tryhard nerd your skill will alienate the casuals" qualities irrelevant and even nonexistent....so now all people play the dumb builds..nothing to theory craft...peace and justice rules...except it's boring....it's not what made gw2 actually fun...to me..so whatevs.

Mech away..or dagger mesmer away...god kitten that AA animation of dagger is so lame.

[dead.7638]

Eod brought in new people, they don’t know how to about face and kitten game play.   0/10.

[Nepster.4275]

So, basically you are complaining that mesmer has one viable DPS option and it's even easy to play?

Man, first of all, mech was more busted than cVirt ever going to be, yes you do high damage but gearing is weird, you actually need to know what you are pressing while on mech you were mostly auto attacking only, mesmer(not just virt, mesmer in general) has only ONE build that is considered as competitive against other specs

Core Mesmer(both condi and power) is just non-existent, tho this isn't a surprise

Chrono has a power build, still sucks as a support, has a niche condi build which can be used on maybe one raid boss

Mirage yes has a condi build which can be considered viable, but it is way harder to play than most of the meta classes right now, power build is a joke

Virtuoso has a power build, which can be sort of considered as "good" tho, there is a reason it does not get any play, it's just weird to play, and obviously the cVirt

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

16 minutes ago, Nepster.4275 said:

So, basically you are complaining that mesmer has one viable DPS option and it's even easy to play?

Man, first of all, mech was more busted than cVirt ever going to be, yes you do high damage but gearing is weird, you actually need to know what you are pressing while on mech you were mostly auto attacking only, mesmer(not just virt, mesmer in general) has only ONE build that is considered as competitive against other specs

Core Mesmer(both condi and power) is just non-existent, tho this isn't a surprise

Chrono has a power build, still sucks as a support, has a niche condi build which can be used on maybe one raid boss

Mirage yes has a condi build which can be considered viable, but it is way harder to play than most of the meta classes right now, power build is a joke

Virtuoso has a power build, which can be sort of considered as "good" tho, there is a reason it does not get any play, it's just weird to play, and obviously the cVirt

The complaint is even narrower than that weirdly, it being prevalent in Strike CMs is why it should be nerfed according to OP, and this is supported by logs that you could also use to reason for buffs, but logs aren't really part of this right now.

[Puck.3697]

15 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

The complaint is even narrower than that weirdly, it being prevalent in Strike CMs is why it should be nerfed according to OP, and this is supported by logs that you could also use to reason for buffs, but logs aren't really part of this right now.

Let's not forget how small % of the game is actually Raids / strikes to begin with. 

Virtuoso sucks at everything else outside this specific gameplay, while Mech was a absolute dominate force in every part of gameplay. 

When mech launched, it went straight meta in SPvP. And even beyond its initial nerfs was still very strong, alike side extremely powerful in open world solo play aswell as metas. 

Virtuoso is strong in like 10% of gameplay, that 60% of the playerbase never see 😂