stealth vulnerability

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Puck.3697 said:

Um wut?. 

Rogues insta combat invis has a secondary buff that lasts like 10 seconds, which prevents damage taken breaking stealth?!. What are you on about lol. 

And due to limitless access. The rogue can follow you round for ages lol. It can sit there and decide when to hit you. Something thief can't do. 

To add to this, a rogue can sunblock you from stealth for over 10 consecutive seconds while outputting burst damage. 

Rogue has been the king of dueling, and has been meta in arena for 2 decades for a reason lol. 

I played wow for many years, rogue was annoying sure, but thief in gw2 is way worse.

 

The issue is rather simple for me. In WOW and GW2, a bad player of stealth dies, fine, as it should be. However, the average thief in GW2 is far, far more difficult to kill than the average rogue in wow (back when I played it). This is becuase Gw2 stealth mechanics have a lot less universal counters AND thief is not as hard to play as rogue was. That combined, makes thief a crutch for average level players, who can continually make bad engagement choices and get away with it, becuase they know the basics of ''how to get out". I played some DD thief recently, the mobility/stealth is not rocket science to abuse, although I do come from playing the likes of hammer cata, where combos are just a given. But the thing is, even on FA scepter cata.. you don't get the same kind of mobility and get out as thief, although you have more staying power. This is partly why I never mind catas, its hard to play, and they die for making bad desisions. Thief  should be more in line with that ethos, becuase it is hard to play well, but it is not high risk gameplay once you know how to abuse its mobility (again, it isnt rocket science to escape).

 

What you also left out is deminished returns on stuns in WOW. You didn't talk about the MANY group fight situations where I have just been stunned by another class, broke it, stunned again, and now the rogue either A: has 1/3 stun duration if he jumps me or B: Is forced to jump another player or wait until ICD resets. In 2v2 it was also an issue, I use to play double dps with a thief team mate. We had to coordinate very carefully, becuase his jump would set off DR, and if I needed a defensive stun, well. Alternitively, if I CC'd something at the wrong time (my CC didn't last as long as his) that would also put us at a disadvantedge, becuase he would pump out less CC. But these are issues that thieves in gw2 never have to consider. Just jump > try your luck > not working out? > initiate eject sequence.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Flowki.7194 said:

I played wow for many years, rogue was annoying sure, but thief in gw2 is way worse.

 

The issue is rather simple for me. In WOW and GW2, a bad player of stealth dies, fine, as it should be. However, the average thief in GW2 is far, far more difficult to kill than the average rogue in wow (back when I played it). This is becuase Gw2 stealth mechanics have a lot less universal counters AND thief is not as hard to play as rogue was. That combined, makes thief a crutch for average level players, who can continually make bad engagement choices and get away with it, becuase they know the basics of ''how to get out". I played some DD thief recently, the mobility/stealth is not rocket science to abuse, although I do come from playing the likes of hammer cata, where combos are just a given. But the thing is, even on FA scepter cata.. you don't get the same kind of mobility and get out as thief, although you have more staying power. This is partly why I never mind catas, its hard to play, and they die for making bad desisions. Thief  should be more in line with that ethos, becuase it is hard to play well, but it is not high risk gameplay once you know how to abuse its mobility (again, it isnt rocket science to escape).

 

What you also left out is deminished returns on stuns in WOW. You didn't talk about the MANY group fight situations where I have just been stunned by another class, broke it, stunned again, and now the rogue either A: has 1/3 stun duration if he jumps me or B: Is forced to jump another player or wait until ICD resets. In 2v2 it was also an issue, I use to play double dps with a thief team mate. We had to coordinate very carefully, becuase his jump would set off DR, and if I needed a defensive stun, well. Alternitively, if I CC'd something at the wrong time (my CC didn't last as long as his) that would also put us at a disadvantedge, becuase he would pump out less CC. But these are issues that thieves in gw2 never have to consider. Just jump > try your luck > not working out? > initiate eject sequence.

Even if I steelman this argument and take the premise as unequivocally true (which I disagree with of course), the fact that people in WoW cry just as hard if not more hard about rogues as people do here should be an indication that adopting similar balancing wont make people any more tolerant.

The class becomes different, players adapt, people getting ganked shift the goalposts again, and nothing changes. 

Pages and pages of cry on the blizzard site, with the same hangups and resentment we have here.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Flowki.7194]

21 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Even if I steelman this argument and take the premise as unequivocally true (which I disagree with of course), the fact that people in WoW cry just as hard if not more hard about rogues as people do here should be an indication that adopting similar balancing wont make people any more tolerant.

The class becomes different, players adapt, people getting ganked shift the goalposts again, and nothing changes. 

Pages and pages of cry on the blizzard site, with the same hangups and resentment we have here.

It is relative though, and I am talking about WOW at around level 80, before it quickly sold out in almost every way (melee only hunters etc). Although its suppose to back on track these days?

[Jhule.7230]

The solution to stealth is stacking, if you can stack stealth upto its maximum 25 secs then 1 second should equal to 1% damage reduction, so the longer you stack stealth the more you get damage reduction. Now as a consequence of this thief should be able to take a trait to reduce this debuff by lets say for an example by 10% as this is a major mechanic to thief but only through a specific trait it can select, but this shouldn't be by default. So the longer you gain stealth by stacking the more you reduce damage upto the maximum of 25%. This should only be implemented when other specialization's damage has been equalised to compansate other classes being able to take advantage of the damage reduction over already weak classes. You could then based this debuff on the same time parameter of reveal and maybe tie the reduction to the ability of removing reveal/stealth debuff which some thief specializations can already do, also you can further expand this idea with support specializations and thief to give aoe support of the stealth reduction trait to your allies under certain specializations.

This helps new players get over the higher tiers stealth stacking mechanic on SPVP/WVW as they will be more inclined to focus 1 target to get the same effect as before this implementation, just idea's.

Let me know what you think!

Edited November 22, 2023 by Jhule.7230

[Puck.3697]

2 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

This is becuase Gw2 stealth mechanics have a lot less universal counters AND thief is not as hard to play as rogue was. That combined, makes thief a crutch for average level players

Ngl I'm terrible at thief and got absolutely slaughtered in spvp 😂

It rarely managed to save me and its never saved any thief whos tried to fight me in spvp either rly haha 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Puck.3697

[Shagie.7612]

i really don't think it's stealth so much as the mobility and relative inability to be punished for mistakes, stealth's just a component of that

thief players downplay their state so hard tho lol
rifle deadeye is foolproof, even when you opt for more damage on daredevil and take impairing daggers you're still incredibly safe

every thief player out here acting like they can't do anything except spontaneously combust

anyways ban thief players
mesmers too

Edited November 22, 2023 by Shagie.7612

[Puck.3697]

4 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

i really don't think it's stealth so much as the mobility and relative inability to be punished for mistakes, stealth's just a component of that

thief players downplay their state so hard tho lol
rifle deadeye is foolproof, even when you opt for more damage on daredevil and take impairing daggers you're still incredibly safe

every thief player out here acting like they can't do anything except spontaneously combust

anyways ban thief players
mesmers too

Tbh most of them do spontaneously combust In spvp lol, I see them dead more often then not. 

[Puck.3697]

4 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I just discard "It's not like WoW" opinions the moment I see them, because it's easy to prove that the complaints against the archetype are just as aggressive in that game.

This salt against thief archetype isnt new. This isn't some balancing issue that WoW got right and Gw2 didnt. Some people just hate interacting with jumpscares and blame the balance for it.

 

With all due respect. 

This is a post from 2 years ago, also. Its near where near what it is today, are there people in open world pvp who despise rogue, Yes. 

The fact a rogue can just sit there wait for you to fall weak and cave you in with limitless stealth is annoying. 

However, litterally almost every thread on the thief section is bashing stealth. This isnt the same for WoW by a long shot lol. The only actively discussed subject around thief is nerfing stealth. 

WoW got it right. Well yeah. It deleted 1v1s being taken seriously and let's face it this is predominately the arguments here. 

In WoW, blizzard has stuck to the rule of 1v1s dont matter and nothing competitive will exist around it. 

Every video used to hate on thief is a Thief in solo play in WvWvW. It aint about their presence in spvp, it aint their presence in large scale fights. 

Anet don't dismiss it. And thats the core reason its such a bigger topic here the game aimt balanced on 1v1s, none of the objectives are about 1v1s they don't actually win any game mode. 

That's the real difference here. 

Do we see the odd person get mad, that rogues never die. They always escape. Because unlike gw2. Rogues carry full CC kits with heap of sustain, as you don't choose stats / builds like gw2 where you have to lose something to gain something else.

So it sits there legging it every 3 minutes. Outrunning most other classes easily. While having Sustain CDs aswell as everything else running simultaneously 

But it dont matter. Because just like gw2, it's power falls the more people that are involved in a fight. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

14 minutes ago, Puck.3697 said:

With all due respect. 

This is a post from 2 years ago, also. Its near where near what it is today, are there people in open world pvp who despise rogue, Yes. 

The fact a rogue can just sit there wait for you to fall weak and cave you in with limitless stealth is annoying. 

However, litterally almost every thread on the thief section is bashing stealth. This isnt the same for WoW by a long shot lol. The only actively discussed subject around thief is nerfing stealth. 

WoW got it right. Well yeah. It deleted 1v1s being taken seriously and let's face it this is predominately the arguments here. 

In WoW, blizzard has stuck to the rule of 1v1s dont matter and nothing competitive will exist around it. 

Every video used to hate on thief is a Thief in solo play in WvWvW. It aint about their presence in spvp, it aint their presence in large scale fights. 

Anet don't dismiss it. And thats the core reason its such a bigger topic here the game aimt balanced on 1v1s, none of the objectives are about 1v1s they don't actually win any game mode. 

That's the real difference here. 

Do we see the odd person get mad, that rogues never die. They always escape. Because unlike gw2. Rogues carry full CC kits with heap of sustain, as you don't choose stats / builds like gw2 where you have to lose something to gain something else.

So it sits there legging it every 3 minutes. Outrunning most other classes easily. While having Sustain CDs aswell as everything else running simultaneously 

But it dont matter. Because just like gw2, it's power falls the more people that are involved in a fight. 

A fair assessment, fine fine. 

That second link is from a couple months ago though :v

[OddFinrir.6801]

Make it so stealth is just see-through, you can't target it, and it breaks target. The teleport spam can be mitigated by moving it to evade energy so they can't leave as easily.

[Shagie.7612]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

That second link is from a couple months ago though :v

That happens with rogue because it keeps approaching almost literal one shot status alarmingly frequently in the last couple years. Or an absolutely unstoppable w key monster. So you see a lot of threads that just point at every possible spell in their spellbook because the average wow gamer is not very bright (cause if they were, they wouldn't be playing wow anymore lol)

Like, if you were to accept the premise of this thread, that stealth is broken and overpowered, it still wouldn't be that level of busted. Things in GW2 rarely if ever get there.

[Last Crab.6054]

7 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

correct

if you banned everyone who's ever played a pvp match as teef pvp would be a better place

there would be no players in the pvp

[Puck.3697]

4 hours ago, Last Crab.6054 said:

there would be no players in the pvp

There are alot more guardians and necros then thieves lol. Thief's pretty low pop overall.... 

[jdawgie.1835]

On 11/22/2023 at 11:08 AM, Puck.3697 said:

Um wut?. 

Rogues insta combat invis has a secondary buff that lasts like 10 seconds, which prevents damage taken breaking stealth?!. What are you on about lol. 

And due to limitless access. The rogue can follow you round for ages lol. It can sit there and decide when to hit you. Something thief can't do. 

To add to this, a rogue can sunblock you from stealth for over 10 consecutive seconds while outputting burst damage. 

Rogue has been the king of dueling, and has been meta in arena for 2 decades for a reason lol. 

I have made this argument all the time. They wont listen to you. TBH stealth in this game is actually signficantly less forgivinng than wow. SImply due to the fact that you cant stay in stealth forever on GW2. Where as rouge in wow you can literally engage and disengage off timer in a BG or arena. I posted this once and someone repsonded with saying "yeah but in wow your slower and crawl instead of here where you get superspeed."  Having no knowledge of that fact that sprint is almos always applied in stealth for rouges either while invis, or to run away and air jump+vanish to throw off their landing location. Also... you havent been slow in stealth in wow for ages. People cite stuff that has not been relevent for ages. Even in vaninlla though you could sprint while stealthed. 

On 11/22/2023 at 11:55 AM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I just discard "It's not like WoW" opinions the moment I see them

So you discard a conextual example of the most played MMO in history, and think thats a good thing? Of course, wow is cited as an example. Disregarding it makes zero sense. 

On 11/22/2023 at 8:45 AM, Burnfall.9573 said:

Guild Wars 2 Stealth Mechanic is the most Toxic Bad Design Stealth Mechanic in Competitve Gaming Genre History

This is completely absurd and not true. Even close to true. 

On 11/22/2023 at 5:19 AM, geist.4126 said:

You can AoE a rogue out of stealth

Thief should be removed from stealth upon taking damage. Agree on this. 

[Last Crab.6054]

okay, something to counter stealth

but....something to remove superspeed, barrier (or give deepwound)

more boone remove, and also, if making stealth like this, make those riskier stealth attacks hit WAY harder

[Flowki.7194]

23 hours ago, Last Crab.6054 said:

okay, something to counter stealth

but....something to remove superspeed, barrier (or give deepwound)

more boone remove, and also, if making stealth like this, make those riskier stealth attacks hit WAY harder

Eh? why? bow 2 hits like a truck, as does dagger 2. These are spammable abilitys that dont depend on complicated mechanics to pull off. DD thief needs counters to stealth but more sustain to compensate, nothing more. That means decent thieves can mitigate, and avg thieves can't be saved by crutch mobility/stealth spam.

 

I only played DD thief a hand full of times and its ability to get out is not hard at all, it takes considerable focus from players to shut me down, yet im terrible at winning 1v1s with it. Nothing toxic about that right? can't win 1v1s against a similar level player, but can escape almost at will, so it only stands to get more toxic, the better I get at 1v1 with it.

 

Even if you get tagged with siccem you got a large range teleport+return, bow 5, 3 dodges, 3 second evade, blind and daze. Obviously things can be on CD but cmon, siccem isnt a hard counter at all to thief. I do feel the effect of siccem when playing chrono though, becuase then I might be forced to spend clones on invuln, which may inturn force stun break to generate them. 2 major defensive CDs and a drop in burst just for 1 siccem, it doesnt hit thief like that, maybe thats just my opinion.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[AliamRationem.5172]

On 11/22/2023 at 12:55 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I just discard "It's not like WoW" opinions the moment I see them, because it's easy to prove that the complaints against the archetype are just as aggressive in that game.

This salt against thief archetype isnt new. This isn't some balancing issue that WoW got right and Gw2 didnt. Some people just hate interacting with jumpscares and blame the balance for it.

 

I don't doubt that this is a reason that players dislike stealth mechanics in both games.  However, I think the reason it is more problematic in GW2 comes down to the ability to disengage at will essentially as often as you like.  Make a mistake?  No problem!  Just reset the fight.  Somebody gets the drop on you?  No problem!  Reset the fight.  Straight up getting your kitten handed to you?  No problem!  Just walk away.  It's to the point where any moderately competent player basically never dies in a roaming scenario and if they do it's almost always because they let pride get the better of them and chose not to disengage when they could have at any point.  As I recall, the issue with stealth in WoW had more to do with the power and control of rogue's opening attacks (i.e. stunlock combo chains).  The stealth itself was not a permanent "get out of jail free" card.

[Last Crab.6054]

3 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Eh? why? bow 2 hits like a truck, as does dagger 2. These are spammable abilitys that dont depend on complicated mechanics to pull off. DD thief needs counters to stealth but more sustain to compensate, nothing more. That means decent thieves can mitigate, and avg thieves can't be saved by crutch mobility/stealth spam.

 

I only played DD thief a hand full of times and its ability to get out is not hard at all, it takes considerable focus from players to shut me down, yet im terrible at winning 1v1s with it. Nothing toxic about that right? can't win 1v1s against a similar level player, but can escape almost at will, so it only stands to get more toxic, the better I get at 1v1 with it.

 

Even if you get tagged with siccem you got a large range teleport+return, bow 5, 3 dodges, 3 second evade, blind and daze. Obviously things can be on CD but cmon, siccem isnt a hard counter at all to thief. I do feel the effect of siccem when playing chrono though, becuase then I might be forced to spend clones on invuln, which may inturn force stun break to generate them. 2 major defensive CDs and a drop in burst just for 1 siccem, it doesnt hit thief like that, maybe thats just my opinion.

Your disdain for thief is something else.

I want you to play an entire season, just decapping, cause apparently, you think that is all thief does. 

You also need to have all those games as VODs on twitch.

Finish above 1500, not just place, and play only thief. 

Make it into the top 250, whatever region you are in, doing all and only the above, with the vods, and a screenshot of the ratio for the season to confirm that you didn't hop on some FOTM.

So many people say, all i did was decap and I got plat on thief.

So what? You didn't finish in plat on thief.

DOing your placements is easy to get plat on any build and any class, if you have any basic knowledge...finishing it where it matter.

 

 

SO, you really think not only removing stealth is good, but keeping everything else the same is fine for thief.....you advice for the balance team is some of the worst I have ever seen, and what is worse, you spam it.

Ele seems to be your main, so lb for lb, how are you struggling with thief? IDC

[Last Crab.6054]

On 11/17/2023 at 3:58 AM, Balsa.3951 said:

add vunability debuff when use stealth.

that's a nice risk vs reward mechanic

and would make stealth more tactical to use

Balsa, play a whole season only thief, finish top 250, need the vods, and the screenshot that shows matches up with twitch vods showing your success as a pro at thief with the ability to actually comment on the class intelligently and not just with passion cause you got beat on what you thought was unbeatable.

[remorseless.6352]

Flowki is gold player in eu

[Flowki.7194]

12 hours ago, Last Crab.6054 said:

Your disdain for thief is something else.

I want you to play an entire season, just decapping, cause apparently, you think that is all thief does. 

You also need to have all those games as VODs on twitch.

Finish above 1500, not just place, and play only thief. 

Make it into the top 250, whatever region you are in, doing all and only the above, with the vods, and a screenshot of the ratio for the season to confirm that you didn't hop on some FOTM.

So many people say, all i did was decap and I got plat on thief.

So what? You didn't finish in plat on thief.

DOing your placements is easy to get plat on any build and any class, if you have any basic knowledge...finishing it where it matter.

 

 

SO, you really think not only removing stealth is good, but keeping everything else the same is fine for thief.....you advice for the balance team is some of the worst I have ever seen, and what is worse, you spam it.

Ele seems to be your main, so lb for lb, how are you struggling with thief? IDC

I never once said ''all a thief does is back cap". Good thieves abuse its stealth/mobility to backcap AND +1, creating a very low risk playstyle. Bad thieves just crutch the mobility to back cap. Ive been pretty fking clear with the distinctions if you read properly.

 

I also suggested to increase thiefs sustain in turn for a reduction in its crutch staelth/mobility. You again completely change the context.. reading comprehention mate.

 

Then you ramble on about placements and more rants about kitten I never even said? so unhinged.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Flowki.7194]

10 hours ago, remorseless.6352 said:

Flowki is gold player in eu

Why is that a problem? I don't duo (aside from occasionally with friends for fun), I don't que dodge, and I mostly played support or group fight builds on specs that actually take some braincells, and punish hard for mistakes.

 

Im not a plat level 1v1 dps. But I would more likely reach low plat if put in games with people of equal level, where support/team fight specs actually stand a real chance of reliably climbing.

 

I have no reason to be bias toward any class or spec in this game. There are objective statements that can be made; thiefs mobility/stealth is not hard to get good at, and it then unlocks a toxic playstyle which takes WAY more effort to counter, than to abuse. The EXACT same thing happened when condi cata landed, toxic playstyle that took more effort for most classes to fight, than to just spam signets and autos.

 

If any of you have played with me then you know what im like.. can't stand these low effort/low risk specs, and im not shy at vocalising it. However, you will never hear me complain if I die to a hollow, cata, weaver, herald, vindi, etc. On those specs, I know kitten well people are working for the kills, and/or taking risks. I got no time for the likes of zerkers, thieves, virts, and so on. Low effort or low risk, thats ANETS fault though, which I try to remind myself.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Last Crab.6054]

9 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

If any of you have played with me then you know what im like.. can't stand these low effort/low risk specs, and im not shy at vocalising it. However, you will never hear me complain if I die to a hollow, cata, weaver, herald, vindi, etc. On those specs, I know kitten well people are working for the kills, and/or taking risks. I got no time for the likes of zerkers, thieves, virts, and so on. Low effort or low risk, thats ANETS fault though, which I try to remind myself.

I deleted everything I was going to say in response because I know...I already know I may as well talk to a wall.

[Shagie.7612]

22 hours ago, Last Crab.6054 said:

Balsa, play a whole season only thief, finish top 250,

are we really gonna pretend like someone capable of getting top 250, which isn't a big accomplishment to begin with where the hardest part about it is playing enough games, couldn't do it as deadeye or specter right now lol

and sure, sure, "do it then" but look at all this nonsense you keep trying to stack up so you can then dismiss it if someone actually does do it, so it won't count for arbitrary reasons.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Shagie.7612

[Last Crab.6054]

40 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

are we really gonna pretend like someone capable of getting top 250, which isn't a big accomplishment to begin with where the hardest part about it is playing enough games, couldn't do it as deadeye or specter right now lol

and sure, sure, "do it then" but look at all this nonsense you keep trying to stack up so you can then dismiss it if someone actually does do it, so it won't count for arbitrary reasons.

just do it, and I'll accept your opinion on how "easy" thief is.

all games on thief, get there.

did i set the bar at top 250?

im pretty sure it was 

"Finish above 1500, not just place, and play only thief. "

that was to chop out making it as a goldie locked

Edited November 27, 2023 by Last Crab.6054