Elo and population

[Antioche.7034]

Is the fact that elo is globally lower than it was before in s-PvP a proof that the population in this gamemode (ranked) decreases ? 

[Flowki.7194]

11 hours ago, Antioche.7034 said:

Is the fact that elo is globally lower than it was before in s-PvP a proof that the population in this gamemode (ranked) decreases ? 

Stats wise it partly lines up. It suggests better players are leaving the game, or at least not playing ranked (wintrading and sweaty duo offpeakers also don't help). This is also leading to a wider range in matchmaking, so higher elo players are also subjected to botters and AFKs.

 

I have been hovering in G2 this season, yesterday I had 4 games in a row where 3+ of my team mates were bronze elo (I asked). That is on a Friday at peak time. If you play at offpeak, you get duo plats. Bronze players should not be in my game, and I should certainly not be put in plat games, but these extermes are litterally 80% of my games. Im suprised im even holding at G2 given the mess in MM range. Its not doubt pushing players like myself away also. I don't care about rank, I just don't want to be in a game were people run into 3v1s all game.. or you get tag team instant killed by a play duo. I want players of my skill level, you know.. what MMR is suppose to do.

 

It has gotten progressively worse since I started playing this game, upto 2 years now? MMR range is consistantly wide, by entire full elos. Anet have also buffed a number of low risk/low effort specs into great/meta status. Block spam, invuln spam, condi bomb spam, lots of stealth/target drop spam, high track damage, evade+highdmg abilitys. Such specs make it much more difficult to punish ''lower skilled players'' being carried by the cheap mechanics, while the same specs double up as outright horendous to fight in the hands of a plat level player. Gold hell, I think somebody called it? it aint fun unless youre playing one of the current toxic specs. So I guess that has resulted in players giving up on sPVP also. Imagine being a plat solo que on something that isnt meta, going up against some sweaty zerker duo or something, while your team is full of low gold. Id quit also.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[aymnad.9023]

5 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

I have been hovering in G2 this season, yesterday I had 4 games in a row where 3+ of my team mates were bronze elo (I asked). That is on a Friday at peak time. If you play at offpeak, you get duo plats. Bronze players should not be in my game, and I should certainly not be put in plat games, but these extermes are litterally 80% of my games

You should not take this seriously since this is the standard answer to the question “what rank are you in?”

Edited November 25, 2023 by aymnad.9023

[Bunbury.8472]

7 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Bronze players should not be in my game, and I should certainly not be put in plat games, but these extermes are litterally 80% of my games. 

consider two facts:

NA doesn't even have 100 plat players, last time I looked it was about 80 including alt accounts.

New accounts have 1200, Gold 1 rating so as gold 2 you will be playing with all of the new players

 

now you know why you feel like you are playing with new players in gold, because that's where anet puts new players. gold is for veterans and brand new players by idiot design.

there are also literally not enough plat players to make plat games, so plat players have to play with gold players or they can't play at all.

lastly the reason you have to play with a team that underperforms and frustrates you, is because people who were too lazy to choose teammates got the option removed so no one can have a team that doesn't frustrate them and go afk.

so have fun. nothing will change. I will be playing WvW 🤠 unless guildies drag me into unranked and I get called 'lame' and 'toxic' for healing my friend on necromancer... ohhh what filth I am giving a necro barrier I should be banned

Edited November 25, 2023 by Bunbury.8472

[Eddbopkins.2630]

45 minutes ago, Bunbury.8472 said:

 

New accounts have 1200, Gold 1 rating so as gold 2 you will be playing with all of the new players

This seems like a problem.

[Bunbury.8472]

42 minutes ago, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

This seems like a problem.

it's definitely one of the main reasons the population doesn't grow

[Flowki.7194]

8 hours ago, aymnad.9023 said:

You should not take this seriously since this is the standard answer to the question “what rank are you in?”

Na, their playstyle backs it up. Going far all game regardless, feeding into 3v1s, no attempt to get out from a +1, no attempt to pick team mates up, peel, attack target, that kind of thing. I have nothing against that per say, I was bronze level too, but the whole point of MMR is to seperate people on compitancy level.

 

2 hours ago, Bunbury.8472 said:

consider two facts:

NA doesn't even have 100 plat players, last time I looked it was about 80 including alt accounts.

New accounts have 1200, Gold 1 rating so as gold 2 you will be playing with all of the new players

 

now you know why you feel like you are playing with new players in gold, because that's where anet puts new players. gold is for veterans and brand new players by idiot design.

there are also literally not enough plat players to make plat games, so plat players have to play with gold players or they can't play at all.

lastly the reason you have to play with a team that underperforms and frustrates you, is because people who were too lazy to choose teammates got the option removed so no one can have a team that doesn't frustrate them and go afk.

so have fun. nothing will change. I will be playing WvW 🤠 unless guildies drag me into unranked and I get called 'lame' and 'toxic' for healing my friend on necromancer... ohhh what filth I am giving a necro barrier I should be banned

Yes that happens ofc, and placers can also be plat level. The issue I am talking about on that day was WAY beyound that, they were genuine bronze players, and a few that I can only assume were 5 year old kids, or bots.

 

Yeah I don't really feel much like playing sPVP anymore, its not competitive at all, just DPS plats farming gold/silver, and youre also forced to play DPS to have any chance of carrying as gold.. but the problem is, who cares about winning in a system where you will just end up farming lower skilled players? There is no insentive to get to plat just to do that.. not competitive, and there is no insentive to play for fun, since there is very little team work, and every good/aspiring player wants to be a 1v1 side node god (in a team game). Support players now are almost exclusively newbs, becuase they have not been exposed to the complete lack of team work enough to see it is futile (been there)

Edited November 25, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[aymnad.9023]

13 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Na, their playstyle backs it up. Going far all game regardless, feeding into 3v1s, no attempt to get out from a +1, no attempt to pick team mates up, peel, attack target, that kind of thing. I have nothing against that per say, I was bronze level too, but the whole point of MMR is to seperate people on compitancy level.

Plat with bronze or gold with bronze in ranked is just not happening outside of the imagination of the forums. The way elo works is that it matches with player around you and expends when you wait too long so that the average of the team is the same.

Gold 3 players will still see gold players. You can probably still see silver 3 if you are low gold 2 or have been waiting more than 5 minutes. Even top players will get multiple gold 1-2 (but no bronze) and have to face teams with gold 3- plat 1.

I played a few silver 3 to plat when I picked up builds without looking at what the skills did on professions I had never played. You probably do not realize the difference between gold 3 and silver 3 anymore. Dodges, reaction time, builds are wildly different. On silver I could 1V3 (sometimes even 1V4) and win so I cannot imagine the difference with bronze. At some point I was plat and played a few games with guildmates who had real handicap and were silver 1. Even then we did not have any bronze because the game tried to average the teams. The opponents were too easy for me but too hard for them.

People in the same rank can be explained by a huge amount of reasons. In gold 2 you can find players having great mechanical skills but 0 map awareness or the complete opposite, some play fun builds and would be higher with a build closer to meta while some play a build that can carry them and would be lower otherwise. They each play their strength but fighting them feels different.

A lot of players will answer that they are bronze when asked because they do not have a reason to give their rank and know that there is a possibility that the guy asking will just start judging instead of focusing on his gameplay (which happens all the time EVEN when they do not know the rank). "why I am matched with someone lower!" "how are you higher than me and so bad!" when they do know "how am I matched with "bronze" players" when they do not know.

Edited November 26, 2023 by aymnad.9023

[Marxx.5021]

sPvP (ranked) is a non functional game mode. Even if there are no bronze player gold and platin gets mixed into matchups due to a lack of player. You can find gold player who have no clue about sPvP in matchups with platin players that have 10k+ matches. Match quality it non existent for the most part.

[Saiyan.1704]

11 hours ago, aymnad.9023 said:

Plat with bronze or gold with bronze in ranked is just not happening outside of the imagination of the forums. The way elo works is that it matches with player around you and expends when you wait too long so that the average of the team is the same.

 

Except that's only true after placements. During placements, it's a different story. A Plat2+ rank player can literally make a new account and have a higher chance to be on the same team as a monthly winning player/players. Even if that person is duoing. It doesn't happen all the time but it was most noticeable over the summer.

[Flowki.7194]

13 hours ago, aymnad.9023 said:

Plat with bronze or gold with bronze in ranked is just not happening outside of the imagination of the forums. The way elo works is that it matches with player around you and expends when you wait too long so that the average of the team is the same.

Gold 3 players will still see gold players. You can probably still see silver 3 if you are low gold 2 or have been waiting more than 5 minutes. Even top players will get multiple gold 1-2 (but no bronze) and have to face teams with gold 3- plat 1.

I played a few silver 3 to plat when I picked up builds without looking at what the skills did on professions I had never played. You probably do not realize the difference between gold 3 and silver 3 anymore. Dodges, reaction time, builds are wildly different. On silver I could 1V3 (sometimes even 1V4) and win so I cannot imagine the difference with bronze. At some point I was plat and played a few games with guildmates who had real handicap and were silver 1. Even then we did not have any bronze because the game tried to average the teams. The opponents were too easy for me but too hard for them.

People in the same rank can be explained by a huge amount of reasons. In gold 2 you can find players having great mechanical skills but 0 map awareness or the complete opposite, some play fun builds and would be higher with a build closer to meta while some play a build that can carry them and would be lower otherwise. They each play their strength but fighting them feels different.

A lot of players will answer that they are bronze when asked because they do not have a reason to give their rank and know that there is a possibility that the guy asking will just start judging instead of focusing on his gameplay (which happens all the time EVEN when they do not know the rank). "why I am matched with someone lower!" "how are you higher than me and so bad!" when they do know "how am I matched with "bronze" players" when they do not know.

I was trying a support specter build tonight, you know, trying to have some fun, and what a suprise, as gold 1 Im put in a game with boyci (or his clone?).. who was duo off peaking. And you want to talk kitten that I don't get silver/bronze in my team regularly? w/e mate.

In-fact I might have already dropped to silver before that game but regardless... it was a -4 loss. Go ahead and explain.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[WhoWantsAHug.3186]

On 11/25/2023 at 2:31 PM, Bunbury.8472 said:

consider two facts:

NA doesn't even have 100 plat players, last time I looked it was about 80 including alt accounts.

This isn't really true. NA doesn't have 100 plat players that have the required amount of games to show up on the leader boards. NA def has more than 100 plat players total. 

 

IMO the match maker shouldn't skew so hard to favor class diversity. Rank should be weighted more than your queued class, but it seems like it's the opposite. 

[Last Crab.6054]

The population that plays pvp is small, and has been shrinking for years.

Especially, since 2020 patch.

No nonsense about mechanics or map awareness, once the mm reaches a limit it expands, and you will see silver against plat 3

The worst part, is because of duo q, there are players in NA especially taking advantage to manipulate the mm

My guess is that they are selling those top accounts because they change each season, but the person at the keyboard remains the same.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

20 hours ago, aymnad.9023 said:

Plat with bronze or gold with bronze in ranked is just not happening outside of the imagination of the forums. The way elo works is that it matches with player around you and expends when you wait too long so that the average of the team is the same.

Have you taken a look at the top 250 lately? In NA, the bottom of it right now was at 1412 earlier tonight...that's almost G2.  

Matchmaker may work the way you say in theoretical land, but in reality, it is matching anyone and everyone right now.  

I mean, it isn't hard to tell who is in bronze/silver--forget micromanaging gold 1-3 as its all the same.  A bronze/silver player is going to: die on a meta build, fight off point (i.e. kill chase, not the useful type of being off point), probably complain about a minute into the game regardless of what is happening, have zero idea of what a rotation is, etc.  This isn't hard.

And it's happening a lot right now.  To the point to where I'm having coaching sessions in every game I play while 2-3v1'ing and still losing most games (usually close, like 380-400 to 500).  Granted with my build the 2/3v1 is more of as stall tactic to stop all the deaths at mid and get points, which is why the games are close. 

This did not happen even earlier in the year when I started off I think 2-12 by multiclassing and ended up 1480 at end of season--I can't break 1330 right now no matter how hard I play.  

Edited November 27, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Luthan.5236]

Don't forget: Changes to the new rewards system might have made less people play PvP. I have not tried to change back to PvP again with them having added more reward track progress to the dailies. (Was in some patch notes but I did not bother to check yet - wiki probably has the info.) Reward track progress from potions was the main incentive to play a lil bit daily - even when having finished the seasonal reward chest. At the beginning the changes made the new system give out far less reward track progress than the previous. (Rank up chests were slower to get.)

I usually played 3-4 matches a day until I finished the seasonal chest. Then  1 daily. Currently from the start onyl 1 match per day. (Too much other stuff to do and I have set the vault to PvE only.) Back then I always managed to even finish the repeatable chest one once each season. (Except mini season where the time is too short.)

What I noticed: I usually kept up with the min requirement for the top 250 (though I never made it in there) - later when I went to one match per day the requirements slowly caught up and at the end of the season it was like ... 30-40 matches more required than I had played.

So the top 250 is a rough guess for population. (It might be lower if also the lower rated people can get in.) But you also need to keep other things in mind.

[Dickinson.7368]

Give A-Net some credit, though.
They have attracted more people with down syndrome & autism in their PvP modes than any other game ever did.
Kudos.

[Flowki.7194]

 Nobody going to comment on this?: Why is the best player EU abusing off peak duo on a Sunday night with meta SB?

 

Are there any good players in this game who have a shread of self respect to call this bs out? or are titles attained from farming golds/silvers the default around here?

[oujiboardspamname.1932]

1 hour ago, Flowki.7194 said:

 Nobody going to comment on this?: Why is the best player EU abusing off peak duo on a Sunday night with meta SB?

 

Are there any good players in this game who have a shread of self respect to call this bs out? or are titles attained from farming golds/silvers the default around here?

I like when they're queuing, makes my games more fun. I do understand your perspective though and wish they'd do away with duo totally. I can clearly feel a difference when I'm playing solo vs with a duo, I also just play for fun and the memes. 

[aymnad.9023]

10 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Have you taken a look at the top 250 lately? In NA, the bottom of it right now was at 1412 earlier tonight...that's almost G2.  

Matchmaker may work the way you say in theoretical land, but in reality, it is matching anyone and everyone right now.  

I mean, it isn't hard to tell who is in bronze/silver--forget micromanaging gold 1-3 as its all the same.  A bronze/silver player is going to: die on a meta build, fight off point (i.e. kill chase, not the useful type of being off point), probably complain about a minute into the game regardless of what is happening, have zero idea of what a rotation is, etc.  This isn't hard.

And it's happening a lot right now.  To the point to where I'm having coaching sessions in every game I play while 2-3v1'ing and still losing most games (usually close, like 380-400 to 500).  Granted with my build the 2/3v1 is more of as stall tactic to stop all the deaths at mid and get points, which is why the games are close. 

This did not happen even earlier in the year when I started off I think 2-12 by multiclassing and ended up 1480 at end of season--I can't break 1330 right now no matter how hard I play.  

I am on EU and so is he.

[aymnad.9023]

17 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

I was trying a support specter build tonight, you know, trying to have some fun, and what a suprise, as gold 1 Im put in a game with boyci (or his clone?).. who was duo off peaking. And you want to talk kitten that I don't get silver/bronze in my team regularly? w/e mate.

In-fact I might have already dropped to silver before that game but regardless... it was a -4 loss. Go ahead and explain.

I literally explained everything. Read again and quote the parts you did not understand / think are wrong and explain why.

Edited November 27, 2023 by aymnad.9023

[aymnad.9023]

19 hours ago, Saiyan.1704 said:

Except that's only true after placements. During placements, it's a different story. A Plat2+ rank player can literally make a new account and have a higher chance to be on the same team as a monthly winning player/players. Even if that person is duoing. It doesn't happen all the time but it was most noticeable over the summer.

I agree that the start of each season has some chaotic games. Once you have your rank it gets better and in general after 3 weeks I find the different ranking quite stable. For new accounts I guess it can happen in any games.

Edited November 27, 2023 by aymnad.9023

[Flowki.7194]

On 11/26/2023 at 11:35 AM, aymnad.9023 said:

A lot of players will answer that they are bronze when asked because they do not have a reason to give their rank and know that there is a possibility that the guy asking will just start judging instead of focusing on his gameplay (which happens all the time EVEN when they do not know the rank). "why I am matched with someone lower!" "how are you higher than me and so bad!" when they do know "how am I matched with "bronze" players" when they do not know.

I actually asked very respectfully, and in general (I didn't ask a individual) they asnwered on their own volition, 4 games in a row, bronze rank players. I'd sooner take their word for it, than your theory. They also played like true bronze/low silver, taking on 1v2s, sitting on mid oblivious to cannon, that kind of thing. Im not plat ofc.. but I know the difference between skill levels, played more than enough sweaty off peak duo plats to get that perspective.

 

If they were not bronze, then what are the chances of multiple games in a row, and multiple players being ranked g2, with true skill level of low silver/bronze? Either way you cut it.. that is a shockingly bad mmr system. It is still a constant, and then you get thrown the occasional game where you have 2 or 3 true gold+ players on one team, and its an absolute steam roll.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[aymnad.9023]

14 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

I actually asked very respectfully, and in general (I didn't ask a individual) they asnwered on their own volition, 4 games in a row, bronze rank players. I'd sooner take their word for it, than your theory. They also played like true bronze/low silver, taking on 1v2s, sitting on mid oblivious to cannon, that kind of thing. Im not plat ofc.. but I know the difference between skill levels, played more than enough sweaty off peak duo plats to get that perspective.

 

If they were not bronze, then what are the chances of multiple games in a row, and multiple players being ranked g2, with true skill level of low silver/bronze? Either way you cut it.. that is a shockingly bad mmr system. It is still a constant, and then you get thrown the occasional game where you have 2 or 3 true gold+ players on one team, and its an absolute steam roll.

I think this can be explained by a difference in our level of trust and expectations.

Even if you do not mean any harm it does not mean people are going to answer truthfully especially on internet. Just think of all the forms we have to fill on every website / app. People know there is a risk of expectations / judgment so they answer bronze to joke / move on. Once you saw bronze you probably started to check what they were doing and focused on what went wrong without realizing it(as we all do).

Another extreme would be people saying in game that they are constant plat 2. I do not know about you but I do not trust those. In general the ones who are plat 2 are silent about their rank. So far a quick account name or leaderboard check proved me right.

In both cases you can add them as friend and check for yourself. It will only work if they have done the minimum amount of games but I would be surprised if it were true.

Edited November 28, 2023 by aymnad.9023

[Flowki.7194]

7 hours ago, aymnad.9023 said:

I think this can be explained by a difference in our level of trust and expectations.

Even if you do not mean any harm it does not mean people are going to answer truthfully especially on internet. Just think of all the forms we have to fill on every website / app. People know there is a risk of expectations / judgment so they answer bronze to joke / move on. Once you saw bronze you probably started to check what they were doing and focused on what went wrong without realizing it(as we all do).

Another extreme would be people saying in game that they are constant plat 2. I do not know about you but I do not trust those. In general the ones who are plat 2 are silent about their rank. So far a quick account name or leaderboard check proved me right.

In both cases you can add them as friend and check for yourself. It will only work if they have done the minimum amount of games but I would be surprised if it were true.

Well then agree to disagree, I take people on their word unless there is a solid reason to suggest otherwise. Your reasons for why they would lie about being bronze are not intuitive to anything I have ever learned in psychology. There is a decent chance people would lie about being a higher rank, and plenty of theory/evidence to back that kind of lie, so I agree on that.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Flowki.7194