Is Elementalist really the weakest class out there?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Ele is a high skill floor and even higher skill ceiling class. This is why almost every ele I see in Openworld is chronically in downstate and yet in WvW an Ele that doesn't want to die will never die. Ele is probably the class where skill matters the most.

[zeyeti.8347]

 

On 12/11/2023 at 5:15 PM, Jzaku.9765 said:

Yes? Might is an essential part of any support build. More than that, Burning Retreat is one of the best movement skills in the game.

It's an evade. That's like complaining that dodging is a DPS loss. It's just an extra dodge that also heals you.

This is a crazy take that is extremely common in this subforum. The fact that Ele essentially carries around a whole bunch of utility focused skills on their weapon is a STRENGTH of the class.

Which build is better, the DPS build that uses every single skill in all 4 Elements for DPS, or the DPS build that only uses Fire/Air, with purely utility skills in Water/Earth? They do approximately equal DPS btw, it's basically comparing most of Ele's Sw/Sc + Wh builds against its Hammer builds in the current patch. Even back in the Era this subforum loves to talk about when Staff was the best Ele DPS weapon with Staff Weaver, it used exclusively Fire/Earth and that was considered a strength of the build. 

1. Might is essential , if you play support you have overload fire who is already a combo field who give 20 stacks on a tiny 180 aoe , what else you gonna use for might ? lava font ? meteor sprinkles ? you don't have any blast finisher in fire staff anyway (and switching is again forcing to have skills you don't peculiarly want at that moment , while other support can basically camp  a weapon and switch whenever it's needed , firebrand staff / healscourge who basically don't even need a weapon to be efficient / druid using staff only for healing / ...)... while fire staff 4 is great when you don't have any holes on the arena , would say i greatly prefer a blink , a flesh wurm or a shift signet , where you can land where you want and not 600-650 wherever and not targeting any foes on the path to stop it, yes those are utility skills and ? not like besides shouts ele  has great utility skills ... they all are stuck in 2015... there is a shout who only purpose is to give 5 stacks of might , give a fire aura (useless aura) and give your foes a little solar burn , cause the damage is ridiculous , just compare utility the ele has for support againsta ny other supprt , it's really sad.....

2.It's an evade skill who is in water , being locked 4 secs in water with a sword is really bad if you play dps, evading is roughtly 3/4 sec loss , going water is 4 sec dps loss ...

3. your take is good in pvp and wvw , in pve endgame it's a hidden weakness , nobody will ask a dps weaver to go water for some healing , neither will ask a tempest support to go air for some damage... we play specific roles , no room for some half baked dps/healer/support , sometimes you take something like a reflect or some stab if it is lacking but ele really sux at those two things , anything else isn't asked , you not gonna bolster yourself after a fight saying you have healed your group for 1500 hp just once upon a time and your deeps is near the healer treshold ... specific roles are asked , no strange hybrid with healing .You don't give any alac or quickness ? you do damage this is the meta since mid Hot.

4. as many ppl point out in this forum , this dps is doable on the golem , why you think you barely see any ele in endgame content , and either in open world ? cause the class is very punishing for no reason , does it hit harder than  any other class ? if that was so you'll see more ppl playing it , but that's not the case , we can prove via data   https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/popularity

Why is it ele is the only one where we can even see an icon of the class , you gonna tell me : "it's not because something isn't played at all that it means it is bad " well i answer if a game is judged being great and very original , but nobody plays it , well ppl who said it is great are hypocrites, that mean the game is not fun , and so as a game definition is fun : well the game is bad , same goes for ele , there are reasons nobody plays it at high end content, it does not apply to pvp and wvw though , but i ma not experimented enough in those game modes to argue about it, but anyway don't forget the biggest content of this game is pve open world , so we have indeed a problem with ele design for pve, i can understand not everything can be balanced , balancing 27 e-specs is impossible , but we should at least have 1 e-spec from each class bieng popular.

Your take was maybe more focused on the pvp side of the game ,were i can't deny your points , having integrated heal in your basic skills is great in those content , but i focus more on endgame and casual pve content , who nobody can deny is the core of the game sadly enough for wvw and pvp enjoyers.

Ele is forced to be hybrid , it should be a choice , like playing with thougness/vitality or not.

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[Jzaku.9765]

15 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

4. as many ppl point out in this forum , this dps is doable on the golem , why you think you barely see any ele in endgame content , and either in open world ? cause the class is very punishing for no reason , does it hit harder than  any other class ? if that was so you'll see more ppl playing it , but that's not the case , we can prove via data   https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/popularity

As of the time of this post Ele is literally #2 AND #3 on the Snowcrows benchmarks with #1 being a build even harder to play than any Ele build: https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks
For what it's worth, I'd recommend the new Condi Tempest build listed there as current #3, it's relatively simple to execute compared to many previous Condi Ele builds.

I find it extremely difficult to respond to your backbreaking back-bending to convince yourself that good utility like one of the top movement skills in the game is bad actually, to the point of manifesting holes in the ground that appear mid-movement. You do remember that Blink, Flesh Wurm, and Shift Signet are utility skills that shouldn't even be compared with a weapon skill?

Ele is an unpopular class for a few reasons, but I'd say a primary reason is precisely because people like you keep perpetuating this narrative that it's an unplayable wreck that's bad at everything. It even supports incredibly simple to play builds that do ~88% of top ranking DPS builds doing nothing but camping Fire Attunement:

 

So Ele in current patch is a class that supports both simple and complex gameplay loops, and has a wide range of both DPS and support builds. It's at minimum a B-tier class that it's "mains" keep insisting is a D-tier one. 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Jzaku.9765

[zeyeti.8347]

19 minutes ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

So Ele in current patch is a class that supports both simple and complex gameplay loops, and has a wide range of both DPS and support builds. It's at minimum a B-tier class that it's "mains" keep insisting is a D-tier one. 

So if the mains players say it's dog**** well as someone who was a main ele , our take is more valuable , you don't see anybody complaining about reaper being weak do you , or complaing about herald being a godlike pumping boon machine ? or neither anybody complained about the scourge nerf. 

What i want to see is YOU playing it , prove you take on some godamn content , not on a freakish pinata , YOU being number one dps , YOU saving a whole 7 ppl down a pumping 25 might alacrity and whatsoever 'Alone' , no herald allowed , thats too easy ...

Just take what tempest support has in the current meta ? druid has an absurd long range healing (i don't like the current way it gives alac , but i can't deny it's efficiency) firebrand still the god of aegis and stab , herald just near the firebrand in term of stab and now aegis even more , scourge who can rez by blinking an eye a whole group and give amazing ammount of barrier, and the list goes on ...

I know this build abusing the fire hit share on arcanes utilitys ... this build is rubbish and very frustrating to play , you have like +25% damage for 7 sec each 14 secs by overloading f1 , and i don't see why ele has only 14000 hp and it also use the less effective heal skill of the game ... very good on a class in light armor with only 14000 hp , i hope you have a good supp with this one or else you gonna be part of the joke : hey ele don't forget to do your rota once in downstate "chuckles", also hope your target doesnt move an inch or lese you gonna cry.

Anyway if it was so efficient more people would play it , ppl play what is efficient for the most , so a large % of gw 2 community pve think ele is not efficient , and i am part of it, especially the support part , i don't get what tempest can bring as support except "rebound" who is used on very few encounters as a mechanic skip, but that alone isn't enough to be unique.

And let's talk about the elemental glyph ... you think your squad is gonna wait for your 3 elementals to spawn ? i know it's for "simulating" other player for the arcane fire hit share but that's another weakness of the ele , thos elementals sux , can't even mount  in open world and take them alive ....

Edited December 12, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[Jzaku.9765]

5 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

So if the mains players say it's dog**** well as someone who was a main ele , our take is more valuable , you don't see anybody complaining about reaper being weak do you , or complaing about herald being a godlike pumping boon machine ? or neither anybody complained about the scourge nerf. 

What i want to see is YOU playing it , prove you take on some godamn content , not on a freakish pinata , YOU being number one dps , YOU saving a whole 7 ppl down a pumping 25 might alacrity and whatsoever 'Alone' , no herald allowed , thats too easy ...

Just take what tempest support has in the current meta ? druid has an absurd long range healing (i don't like the current way it gives alac , but i can't deny it's efficiency) firebrand still the god of aegis and stab , herald just near the firebrand in term of stab and now aegis even more , scourge who can rez by blinking an eye a whole group and give amazing ammount of barrier, and the list goes on ...

I know this build abusing the fire hit share on arcanes utilitys ... this build is rubbish and very frustrating to play , you have like +25% damage for 7 sec each 14 secs by overloading f1 , and i don't see why ele has only 14000 hp and it also use the less effective heal skill of the game ... very good on a class in light armor with only 14000 hp , i hope you have a good supp with this one or else you gonna be part of the joke : hey ele don't forget to do your rota once in downstate "chuckles".

And let's talk about the elemental glyph ... you think your squad is gonna wait for your 3 elementals to spawn ? i know it's for "simulating" other player for the arcane fire hit share but that's another weakness of the ele , thos elementals sux , can't even mount  in open world and take them alive ....

I regularly play Heal Tempest in all content including CMs. It is not some galaxy brain build that only the elite can play, and has it's own great strengths that set it apart like incredible res power and low maintenance heal over time. 

Spoiler

https://dps.report/01K1-20231201-223317_enso
https://dps.report/mTzH-20231201-222942_siax
https://dps.report/AelF-20231201-222426_mama
https://dps.report/a0jk-20231201-222037_arkk
https://dps.report/YL1z-20231201-221659_arriv
https://dps.report/bSo6-20231201-221240_skor
https://dps.report/Oiq5-20231201-220837_ai
https://dps.report/6YON-20231201-220547_ai
https://dps.report/n8P2-20231117-142202_kana

https://dps.report/J61F-20231128-213852_trin
https://dps.report/zmxV-20231128-213028_ankka

[zeyeti.8347]

I guess the firebrand has some stab in his build to compensate your stab lack ? you would have been more efficient as firebrand , your group could have tanked hits with aegis and be more efficient, but you play what you want happy for you to have a static who allows a tempest in fractals.

also talk about his own great strenght , what are those ? 

rez power ? you play with staff ? if not and don't see how a pulsing water field rezzing faster while you already are rezzing helps ... healscourge does that by bringing back ppl from afar.

Also where are the "dps" eles in your reports ?

And sorry to say so , but you are maybe the 0,01% of ppl playing htemp in fracs. I personnaly don't want to play with a htemp , especially in fractals were is know if i don't dodge i will be throw around like a freaking volley ball.

You have your points , if you enjoy it , well good for you , but undersatnd that a lot of ppl don't enjoy it for a good reason , and not solely because a lot of us in forum puke on the ele.

Edited December 12, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[Jzaku.9765]

1 minute ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

I guess the firebrand has some stab in his build to compensate your stab lack ? you would have been more efficient as firebrand , your group could have tanked hits with aegis and be more efficient, but you play what you want happy for you to have a static who allows a tempest in fractals.

also talk about his own great strenght , what are those ? 

1) These are all PUGS and nobody will kick you purely for being a heal tempest provided you fulfill the LFG requirements

2) Here's some tips about how to read a log - you can go to Buffs > Generation Group/Squad and see that I am the single source of a lot of stab for the group

3) I'm going to stop responding to this insufferable goalpost shifting ad hominem. You have been presented good builds and factual evidence, I suggest you at least try to reassess. 

[zeyeti.8347]

14 minutes ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

1) These are all PUGS and nobody will kick you purely for being a heal tempest provided you fulfill the LFG requirements

2) Here's some tips about how to read a log - you can go to Buffs > Generation Group/Squad and see that I am the single source of a lot of stab for the group

3) I'm going to stop responding to this insufferable goalpost shifting ad hominem. You have been presented good builds and factual evidence, I suggest you at least try to reassess. 

No , pugs don't care what you play and that's not the discussion here , strong points of the tempest still waiting , tell me another class who is in the need of overloading for 4 - 2.8 with quick to give boons , if you got hit or interrupted , well alac and might and even prot. uptime will suffer , you seem indeed to kind of master the class ... godd for you , but you are an exception , don't forget that , a new player try the ele , then goes on ANY other class will have a blast adn will always question how does it come ele feel like it is while other class have more hp , more armor , are more easy to play and "goes on blablabla"

Keep you fairly points about ele strenght , play how you want , but stop denying ele is good at it is , even teapot says tempest support doesnt bring anything to the table.

heck one thing that pisses me off about tempest heal is staff being reworked but not use at all because you need to be stacked thightly for overload f1 boon microscopic share 180 aoe....

for the record :

Sometimes i don't agree with him , but you can deny he has a very solid vision of the game meta , ps : all the build under A tier aren't even builds ...those are more of a meme thing , so ele is the nearest meta healer to be a meme. It's sufficiant in most content with skilled player , but you don't take an ele with trainees for example ...

As i am not convincing you , neither will you convince me , i am stubborn about it , cause i think i have waisted my time investing more than 5000 hours in my ele.

Edited December 12, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[CafPow.1542]

15 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

but you don't take an ele with trainees for example ...

With trainees you always bring a vacuum-necro cause teansfusion is extremely strong in this case. But it becomes more worthless when players get better.

you would also skip a Firebrand over a necro in this case cause you want the vacuum.

that‘s really not a point.

[soulknight.9620]

On 12/12/2023 at 7:38 PM, zeyeti.8347 said:

I guess the firebrand has some stab in his build to compensate your stab lack ?

Not here to defend/agree/dissagree with you both, but Just saying staff can pump up stab a lot. 

[draxynnic.3719]

On 12/12/2023 at 2:30 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Ele is a high skill floor and even higher skill ceiling class. This is why almost every ele I see in Openworld is chronically in downstate and yet in WvW an Ele that doesn't want to die will never die. Ele is probably the class where skill matters the most.

I think it's a little more complicated than that. Elementalist's survivability is heavily weighted towards being able to outheal (and outcleanse when needed) incoming damage, while the low health is the kitten in their armour that allows them to be spiked down.

In lower-damage competitive metas, this works well, especially in duelling circumstances where it's hard for one person to pull off those spikes or outdamage their healing. 

In PvE, though, the most dangerous enemies to ANY profession tend to be dangerous due to their ability to dish out a lot of damage in a short period of time. Other professions might be more able to dodge, block, or just tank these spikes, but glassy elementalists might just die, or not have enough time to resustain before the next spike.

Personally, my approach is usually to run celestial in open world (elementalist uses all attributes almost regardless of build), but most of my ele gear is legendary so it's not a big deal. Players who can only afford one or two sets and think they have to be glass, though, are going to have a hard time surviving on ele. (Seriously, when I switched from glass to cele in open world, it was like night and day, while I didn't notice a substantial reduction in the damage I was doing back).

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

7 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think it's a little more complicated than that. Elementalist's survivability is heavily weighted towards being able to outheal (and outcleanse when needed) incoming damage, while the low health is the kitten in their armour that allows them to be spiked down.

In lower-damage competitive metas, this works well, especially in duelling circumstances where it's hard for one person to pull off those spikes or outdamage their healing. 

In PvE, though, the most dangerous enemies to ANY profession tend to be dangerous due to their ability to dish out a lot of damage in a short period of time. Other professions might be more able to dodge, block, or just tank these spikes, but glassy elementalists might just die, or not have enough time to resustain before the next spike.

Personally, my approach is usually to run celestial in open world (elementalist uses all attributes almost regardless of build), but most of my ele gear is legendary so it's not a big deal. Players who can only afford one or two sets and think they have to be glass, though, are going to have a hard time surviving on ele. (Seriously, when I switched from glass to cele in open world, it was like night and day, while I didn't notice a substantial reduction in the damage I was doing back).

That is all true, a berserker geared ele goes into downstate when sneezed on by anything. But that is also where skill comes in, or at least some mental bookkeeping. Knowing when your FB has aegis available and will pop it so you don't have to mitigate, knowing when your evade skills are off CD so you can use them, managing your own endurance pool. Ele has the tools to avoid damage out right and not just resustain via healing, but that requires them to swap attunements when they may not want too.

Cele would be great for ele in OW for sure. Even on warrior swapping to Cele or Sentinel is still a night and day difference in the damage received.

[the krytan assassin.9235]

From the perspective of instanced PvE I wouldnt say elementalisy is the weakest class out there. The mesmer, necro and revenant are currently quite a bit overtuned though. These all feature relatively easy to play builds with alot of extra utility & surviveability. 

Thief, Ranger, Engineer, Guardian and warrior all have different issues, but issues nonetheless. 

Overall ele has access to a great healalac build, good qdps build, weak adps build, good melee & ranged cdps, decent melee pdps and weak ranged pdps.

[draxynnic.3719]

14 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

That is all true, a berserker geared ele goes into downstate when sneezed on by anything. But that is also where skill comes in, or at least some mental bookkeeping. Knowing when your FB has aegis available and will pop it so you don't have to mitigate, knowing when your evade skills are off CD so you can use them, managing your own endurance pool. Ele has the tools to avoid damage out right and not just resustain via healing, but that requires them to swap attunements when they may not want too.

Cele would be great for ele in OW for sure. Even on warrior swapping to Cele or Sentinel is still a night and day difference in the damage received.

That's all stuff other professions don't have to do as much, though, either because they have more blocks/evades/etc and don't have to worry about when an aegis provider will do it for them, or have more health (in glass gear) to absorb mistakes. It's notworthy that thieves and guardians aren't much tougher in raw stats (armour is much less important than health in surviving spikes), but they generally have more dodges, blocks, and other means of outright avoiding damage, usually without interrupting their rotation nearly as much as an attunement switch does.

Of course, I'm not saying that elementalist is entirely lacking in those sorts of defenses, just that it is generally more oriented to outsustaining pressure with spikes being a weakness, and that affects how well they perform in different content.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

That's all stuff other professions don't have to do as much, though, either because they have more blocks/evades/etc and don't have to worry about when an aegis provider will do it for them, or have more health (in glass gear) to absorb mistakes. It's notworthy that thieves and guardians aren't much tougher in raw stats (armour is much less important than health in surviving spikes), but they generally have more dodges, blocks, and other means of outright avoiding damage, usually without interrupting their rotation nearly as much as an attunement switch does.

Of course, I'm not saying that elementalist is entirely lacking in those sorts of defenses, just that it is generally more oriented to outsustaining pressure with spikes being a weakness, and that affects how well they perform in different content.

One of the things I've learned as a full glass ele in group PVE is that Arcane Shield is a greatly underrated skill.  The snowcrows rotations will have something like Arcane Blast on, but that is only a 700 DPS increase overall.  Arcane Shield will still do damage when it blows up, but the handy combination of stunbreak and several blocks with no animation makes for a great emergency button that will save you from all sorts of problems.

It isn't hard to run an Ele in full glass... so long as you properly utilize their defensive abilities.  Glyph of Storms, Arcane Shield, and the various ways of gaining Magnetic Aura will handle the threats ele faces, even in CMs and raids.  It is rare to ever need more than those two utilities.  

[zeyeti.8347]

On 12/13/2023 at 8:45 PM, soulknight.9620 said:

Not here to defend/agree/dissagree with you both, but Just saying staff can pump up stab a lot. 

We both know the answer , syg + f3 tome skill 5 can do the job pretty well with full boon duration either you are with axe , mace , shield or staff , there is no comparison possible , ele has a lot of options for support heal , but all those option are better covered by other specs:

donwed ppl rez : necro 

stab and aegis : firebrand / herald wtith a 15 secs cd aegis on shield

heal from afar : druid and next rifle mesmer 

Barrier : scourge and next specter herald

boons from afar : scourge and mechanist

Ele has a bunch of these option but less effective and sometimes with downside , playing staff allow good long range healing but you will have to rely on a herald to share might cause you ain't doing *** with fire overload tiny 180 aoe , rez ability ? you need to play staff to get the full chunk of this trait , if you take arcane there is no fury share (even if some builds give fury), barrier ? none , boons from afar ? none (only one ability can provide decent boons from afar is heat sync and you need to have yousrelf a lot of might and decent fury time for this skill to be effective).

2 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

One of the things I've learned as a full glass ele in group PVE is that Arcane Shield is a greatly underrated skill.  The snowcrows rotations will have something like Arcane Blast on, but that is only a 700 DPS increase overall.  Arcane Shield will still do damage when it blows up, but the handy combination of stunbreak and several blocks with no animation makes for a great emergency button that will save you from all sorts of problems.

It isn't hard to run an Ele in full glass... so long as you properly utilize their defensive abilities.  Glyph of Storms, Arcane Shield, and the various ways of gaining Magnetic Aura will handle the threats ele faces, even in CMs and raids.  It is rare to ever need more than those two utilities.  

You are right we could take one def skills as dps , but why does ele need to do so while they are other class who has built in survivability ? Also i don't see how glyph of storms is a defensive ability , you cast it in earth to blind trash mobs ? what about a boss with  a cc bar ? and saying magnetic aura is a great def skills , it shines in pvp cause you can surprise yoru target with it , but with all the refflect and projectiels destroyer we have today magnetic aura is the worst of them , it only works on single traget projectiles not even on aoe ones.

there is no reason today to have Ele with such low hp , no reason for it to be so complicated ... alac is on 4 sec cast time (2.8 with quick) and let's not talk of the way ele gives quickness .... i agree that all quickness sharer look kind of crap against a herald atm.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

1 hour ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

You are right we could take one def skills as dps , but why does ele need to do so while they are other class who has built in survivability ? Also i don't see how glyph of storms is a defensive ability , you cast it in earth to blind trash mobs ? what about a boss with  a cc bar ? and saying magnetic aura is a great def skills , it shines in pvp cause you can surprise yoru target with it , but with all the refflect and projectiels destroyer we have today magnetic aura is the worst of them , it only works on single traget projectiles not even on aoe ones.

there is no reason today to have Ele with such low hp , no reason for it to be so complicated ... alac is on 4 sec cast time (2.8 with quick) and let's not talk of the way ele gives quickness .... i agree that all quickness sharer look kind of crap against a herald atm.

Other professions also have to use defensive skills.  It is a pretty big myth around here that other professions just get free survivability options.  There's only one that does (mesmer), and even then the distortion comes at the cost of illusions.  Everyone else has to slot a defensive utility/trait, get animation locked into a block/evade (which ele also has in many skills), or pay some kind of additional cost that hurts their performance anyway (initiative, illusions, life force, etc).  Fire/Arcane tempest gets a free Arcane Shield every 20 seconds thanks to it's summons.   Magnetic Aura also happens to work on all projectiles, and not just ones targeted at a specific player.  The advantage to magnetic aura is that it sticks to the player, letting them move while also reflecting projectiles.

I bring up Arcane Shield because it is core, has no animation time, and is quite useful.  However, that's not the only options Ele has.  Depending on the weapons, they'll have:

STAFF: Burning Retreat (evade), magnetic aura, unsteady ground + frozen ground (regular mobs)

DAGGER: Burning Speed (evade), Updraft (evade), Earthen Rush (evade), Steam Surge (evade, weaver), Mud Slide (evade, weaver)

FOCUS:  Swirling Winds (projectiles), magnetic wave (projectiles), obsidian flesh (invulnerability)

WARHORN: Sand Squall (projectiles), Dust Storm (blind spam)

SWORD: Riptide (evade), Earthen Vortex (evade)

HAMMER: Crashing Font (large self-heal), Immutable Stone (block + magnetic aura + barrier)

This isn't including all of the one-time blinds, and all of the crowd control both soft and hard.  To give a build example, one of my favorite specs to run is Fresh Air Sword/Dagger weaver.  On this spec, I have an evade in every attunement but fire.  I heal 202 health every time I attack, which is a lot because of how fast I attack.  I gain 523 barrier in an AoE each time I use a dual attack.  My Dual attacks inflict weakness on enemies for a high uptime.  I start the fight with Lava Skin, giving myself 3k barrier.  I can blind foes for 10 seconds with Sandstorm, or just do a lot of damage in other attunements.  When I need to CC, I go through a chain rotation that inflicts 732 Defiance Damage on top of all the weakness, chill, and blind I inflict passively.  With Reinforced Armor and a tier 10 core I'm sitting at 14.6k starting health, even in full glass.  I also have a condition cleanse in water, if I hold the rotation but for a fraction of a second to use it.

This is all a lot of words to say that Ele isn't defenseless.  Not by a longshot.

[Jzaku.9765]

39 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Other professions also have to use defensive skills.  It is a pretty big myth around here that other professions just get free survivability options.  There's only one that does (mesmer), and even then the distortion comes at the cost of illusions.  Everyone else has to slot a defensive utility/trait, get animation locked into a block/evade (which ele also has in many skills), or pay some kind of additional cost that hurts their performance anyway (initiative, illusions, life force, etc).  Fire/Arcane tempest gets a free Arcane Shield every 20 seconds thanks to it's summons.   Magnetic Aura also happens to work on all projectiles, and not just ones targeted at a specific player.  The advantage to magnetic aura is that it sticks to the player, letting them move while also reflecting projectiles.

I bring up Arcane Shield because it is core, has no animation time, and is quite useful.  However, that's not the only options Ele has.  Depending on the weapons, they'll have:

STAFF: Burning Retreat (evade), magnetic aura, unsteady ground + frozen ground (regular mobs)

DAGGER: Burning Speed (evade), Updraft (evade), Earthen Rush (evade), Steam Surge (evade, weaver), Mud Slide (evade, weaver)

FOCUS:  Swirling Winds (projectiles), magnetic wave (projectiles), obsidian flesh (invulnerability)

WARHORN: Sand Squall (projectiles), Dust Storm (blind spam)

SWORD: Riptide (evade), Earthen Vortex (evade)

HAMMER: Crashing Font (large self-heal), Immutable Stone (block + magnetic aura + barrier)

This isn't including all of the one-time blinds, and all of the crowd control both soft and hard.  To give a build example, one of my favorite specs to run is Fresh Air Sword/Dagger weaver.  On this spec, I have an evade in every attunement but fire.  I heal 202 health every time I attack, which is a lot because of how fast I attack.  I gain 523 barrier in an AoE each time I use a dual attack.  My Dual attacks inflict weakness on enemies for a high uptime.  I start the fight with Lava Skin, giving myself 3k barrier.  I can blind foes for 10 seconds with Sandstorm, or just do a lot of damage in other attunements.  When I need to CC, I go through a chain rotation that inflicts 732 Defiance Damage on top of all the weakness, chill, and blind I inflict passively.  With Reinforced Armor and a tier 10 core I'm sitting at 14.6k starting health, even in full glass.  I also have a condition cleanse in water, if I hold the rotation but for a fraction of a second to use it.

This is all a lot of words to say that Ele isn't defenseless.  Not by a longshot.

You are talking to someone that looked at 10+ logs of Staff heal Tempest gameplay capped at 25 might and still believes that it doesn't give might. And watched a video rating Heal Tempest A tier and their takeaway was that everything under A tier is unplayable garbage. We're not their therapist. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

8 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

That's all stuff other professions don't have to do as much, though, either because they have more blocks/evades/etc and don't have to worry about when an aegis provider will do it for them, or have more health (in glass gear) to absorb mistakes. It's notworthy that thieves and guardians aren't much tougher in raw stats (armour is much less important than health in surviving spikes), but they generally have more dodges, blocks, and other means of outright avoiding damage, usually without interrupting their rotation nearly as much as an attunement switch does.

Of course, I'm not saying that elementalist is entirely lacking in those sorts of defenses, just that it is generally more oriented to outsustaining pressure with spikes being a weakness, and that affects how well they perform in different content.

Eles have more than you would think, it just requires swapping attunements to get to the next evade, or even having taken the relevant weapon to begin with. Things like Arcane Shield are very underrated. 

[zeyeti.8347]

6 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Other professions also have to use defensive skills.  It is a pretty big myth around here that other professions just get free survivability options.  There's only one that does (mesmer), and even then the distortion comes at the cost of illusions.  Everyone else has to slot a defensive utility/trait, get animation locked into a block/evade (which ele also has in many skills), or pay some kind of additional cost that hurts their performance anyway (initiative, illusions, life force, etc).  Fire/Arcane tempest gets a free Arcane Shield every 20 seconds thanks to it's summons.   Magnetic Aura also happens to work on all projectiles, and not just ones targeted at a specific player.  The advantage to magnetic aura is that it sticks to the player, letting them move while also reflecting projectiles.

I bring up Arcane Shield because it is core, has no animation time, and is quite useful.  However, that's not the only options Ele has.  Depending on the weapons, they'll have:

STAFF: Burning Retreat (evade), magnetic aura, unsteady ground + frozen ground (regular mobs)

DAGGER: Burning Speed (evade), Updraft (evade), Earthen Rush (evade), Steam Surge (evade, weaver), Mud Slide (evade, weaver)

FOCUS:  Swirling Winds (projectiles), magnetic wave (projectiles), obsidian flesh (invulnerability)

WARHORN: Sand Squall (projectiles), Dust Storm (blind spam)

SWORD: Riptide (evade), Earthen Vortex (evade)

HAMMER: Crashing Font (large self-heal), Immutable Stone (block + magnetic aura + barrier)

This isn't including all of the one-time blinds, and all of the crowd control both soft and hard.  To give a build example, one of my favorite specs to run is Fresh Air Sword/Dagger weaver.  On this spec, I have an evade in every attunement but fire.  I heal 202 health every time I attack, which is a lot because of how fast I attack.  I gain 523 barrier in an AoE each time I use a dual attack.  My Dual attacks inflict weakness on enemies for a high uptime.  I start the fight with Lava Skin, giving myself 3k barrier.  I can blind foes for 10 seconds with Sandstorm, or just do a lot of damage in other attunements.  When I need to CC, I go through a chain rotation that inflicts 732 Defiance Damage on top of all the weakness, chill, and blind I inflict passively.  With Reinforced Armor and a tier 10 core I'm sitting at 14.6k starting health, even in full glass.  I also have a condition cleanse in water, if I hold the rotation but for a fraction of a second to use it.

This is all a lot of words to say that Ele isn't defenseless.  Not by a longshot.

Reaper has shroud 3 (-66% damage taken , not stopping anythink in the rotation and build in defensive skill).

Bladesworn has aegis from many skills used in the rotation.

scourge has barrier (even it's pretty low without healing) and a free condi cleanse who doesn't interrupt your rotation , also built in.

Vindicator has a block , with good use of it it can increase your deeps.

Virtuoso has (apart distorsion you already mentionned) built in 3% condi damage turn into hp .

And counting any class having more hp or a bigger armor than the ele -> 8 classes.... that's also inbuild defnsiv ability. Just tell me why today ele has to have the lowest hp pool with the lowest armor ? i coul understand that while the game was young and ele was one of teh few spec who could heal efficiently whtout counting on the healing skill.

Ele isn't defensless of course , but having to be defensiv cost you something , reinforced armor give you +5% armor and +5% health , benefitting more on big armor classes and on big hp pool classes , so those are two things ele benefit surely , but again ANY other class has those bonus too but with higher value.

All the skills you mentionned are used either on the support heal tempest or are completely off whole ele rotation , dagger/dagger is used in pvp and wvw , not in pve , Staff is underused as a dps weapon and even as a support weapon , focus is used on mainly condi builds , so no air rotation (nothing inflict conditions in air), sword is used as dps , going into water and using riptide is again punishing you in some way ,the only part i can agree with you is about hammer who is for me largely the most well designed weapon , having the ability to have one sole purpose to be damage dealer with great inbuild defense and non stopping rotation pretty powerfull defensiv skills , i cannot deny -15% condi and strike damage taken mostly of the time on this build , but that's the only weapon who can use his full potential in every attunement , all the other you stated have most of their skills not used or be paying a price could it either be damage or support.

All of you can play ele how you want , but i largely disagree with you , the ele is the class with the least threatening or usefull utility skills (only shouts are somewhat up to date design ), all those skills have very narrow uses, especially conjured weapons (wish version of engi kits , huge cooldown, pratically nothing to offer and very scuffed mechanic), for me the reason behind this low playrate is not up to the forum spitting on ele (maybe justa  bit) , cause at some point we saw tempest at the bright dawn of raids being very powerfull (even playing with staff) , cause it could deeps a lot and give some might , now a lot of classes can spit out might like no tomorrown and very more efficiently than ele , remind you without warhorn your tempest only has 180 aoe might share, nobody was spitting on ele at that time , and now suddenly for many years we see only complains ... we don't see the same rate of complains about other classes (maybe warrior), a film could have a great design and plot , if nobody goes seeing it , well it's a failure , ele is the least played class in instanced content and was for a long time , so his design in those regards are a failure. And it's not because some of you play it even in fractals that his design is good , again you are the low% playing it and data proves it , what ele can accopmplish other class can do it too with more efficiency.

If a new players enters the game and ask for your enlightements are you franckly gonna say he should play ele as an advice ?

And i can even go on on very useless traits and weird rait that are stucked in 2014... 

Conjurer ouh yeah.. fire aura whenever you summon a conjure weapon , this one take the cake of being the most useless trait of the whole game.

Pyromancer's Puissance okay a trait that give you personal decent might uptime , but whenever you go off fire or overload you loose 10 stacks ... what is this trait a support trait a dps trait ? yes a uselss weirdly designed trait.

Elemental Shielding 3 freaking seconds of prot. whenever u "aura" an ally ... that trait should have given barrier for a long time now...

Soothing Ice c'mon régénération and frost aura on yourself when you get hit ... this trait should be a 360 also apply to allies.

Soothing Disruption was great when it decrease cantrips cd , but it needs a complete redesign for a long time now.

Arcane Prowess and Elemental Attunement shoudld give an increased ammount of might and the first one should also be given to allies or even change to fury , cause franckly 1 stack of might when you go fire or switch an attunement .... 1 freaking stack ...

Sorry if i go bombastick on the ele , but at some points i played every class every possible way in the game (at least 1e-spec from every class) i just personnaly don't see the good points of ele today. And i am not the kind of person who has bias towards not personnaly entertaining classes by my own perspective , i used to play druid a lot as support , now with the alacrity rework on astral skills i really don't like it and don't play it anymore but icannot deny it's efficiency.

Edited December 15, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

2 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Reaper has shroud 3 (-66% damage taken , not stopping anythink in the rotation and build in defensive skill).

Reaper loses offensive power by taking hits in shroud, which very much loses the rotation.  You're missing the forest for the trees, here.  To get all of the defenses you listed in specific elite specializations, you have to trait that specialization over something else.  You mention Bladesworn having Aegis, but what does Berserker get?  Nothing.  Your whole case is "other professions get defenses when they equip defenses," which contradicts your initial claim that they don't.

2 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

And counting any class having more hp or a bigger armor than the ele -> 8 classes.... that's also inbuild defnsiv ability.

Irrelevant.  Ele has enough to survive well, and that is all that matters.  

2 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Just tell me why today ele has to have the lowest hp pool with the lowest armor ?

Somebody has to.

2 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Ele isn't defensless of course , but having to be defensiv cost you something ,

9 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Everyone else has to slot a defensive utility/trait, get animation locked into a block/evade (which ele also has in many skills), or pay some kind of additional cost that hurts their performance anyway (initiative, illusions, life force, etc). 

 

2 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

All the skills you mentionned are used either on the support heal tempest or are completely off whole ele rotation ,

No they aren't.  

2 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

dagger/dagger is used in pvp and wvw , not in pve , Staff is underused as a dps weapon and even as a support weapon , focus is used on mainly condi builds , so no air rotation (nothing inflict conditions in air), sword is used as dps , going into water and using riptide is again punishing you in some way ,the only part i can agree with you is about hammer who is for me largely the most well designed weapon , having the ability to have one sole purpose to be damage dealer with great inbuild defense and non stopping rotation pretty powerfull defensiv skills , i cannot deny -15% condi and strike damage taken mostly of the time on this build , but that's the only weapon who can use his full potential in every attunement , all the other you stated have most of their skills not used or be paying a price could it either be damage or support.

This is all wrong.  Weaver and Catalyst go through every element quite quickly.  Tempest generally doesn't, except that it has only 2 seconds on changing attunements, which is how long it takes to swap to Earth/Water, use the defensive skill, use the highest DPS skill in that attunement, then get right back to the fight while losing almost nothing.

 

2 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

All of you can play ele how you want , but i largely disagree with you , the ele is the class with the least threatening or usefull utility skills (only shouts are somewhat up to date design ),

Most of Ele's functions come from it's weapon skills and it's traits, as well as utilizing the combo system.  You're not looking in the right place if you focus on utilities and nothing else.

 

2 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

all those skills have very narrow uses, especially conjured weapons (wish version of engi kits , huge cooldown, pratically nothing to offer and very scuffed mechanic), for me the reason behind this low playrate is not up to the forum spitting on ele (maybe justa  bit) , cause at some point we saw tempest at the bright dawn of raids being very powerfull (even playing with staff) , cause it could deeps a lot and give some might , now a lot of classes can spit out might like no tomorrown and very more efficiently than ele , remind you without warhorn your tempest only has 180 aoe might share, nobody was spitting on ele at that time , and now suddenly for many years we see only complains ... we don't see the same rate of complains about other classes (maybe warrior), a film could have a great design and plot , if nobody goes seeing it , well it's a failure , ele is the least played class in instanced content and was for a long time , so his design in those regards are a failure. And it's not because some of you play it even in fractals that his design is good , again you are the low% playing it and data proves it , what ele can accopmplish other class can do it too with more efficiency.

Ele has a higher skill requirement than most professions, which is why it isn't played s much.  This isn't a failure of design.

2 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

If a new players enters the game and ask for your enlightements are you franckly gonna say he should play ele as an advice ?

Yes.  I regularly give advice on how to play ele well.  I do this because ele is, IMO, the most fun profession in the game.  

2 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

And i can even go on on very useless traits and weird rait that are stucked in 2014... 

And I can do that for every single profession in the game.  

2 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Sorry if i go bombastick on the ele , but at some points i played every class every possible way in the game (at least 1e-spec from every class) i just personnaly don't see the good points of ele today. And i am not the kind of person who has bias towards not personnaly entertaining classes by my own perspective , i used to play druid a lot as support , now with the alacrity rework on astral skills i really don't like it and don't play it anymore but icannot deny it's efficiency.

I don't believe you.  From the way you write and the things you say it reads as disingenuous.  I have had other people tell me not to bother speaking to you, and I have yet to see evidence against this assertion.  

[zeyeti.8347]

2 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Reaper loses offensive power by taking hits in shroud, which very much loses the rotation.  You're missing the forest for the trees, here.  To get all of the defenses you listed in specific elite specializations, you have to trait that specialization over something else.  You mention Bladesworn having Aegis, but what does Berserker get?  Nothing.  Your whole case is "other professions get defenses when they equip defenses," which contradicts your initial claim that they don't.

Irrelevant.  Ele has enough to survive well, and that is all that matters.  

Somebody has to.

 

No they aren't.  

This is all wrong.  Weaver and Catalyst go through every element quite quickly.  Tempest generally doesn't, except that it has only 2 seconds on changing attunements, which is how long it takes to swap to Earth/Water, use the defensive skill, use the highest DPS skill in that attunement, then get right back to the fight while losing almost nothing.

 

Most of Ele's functions come from it's weapon skills and it's traits, as well as utilizing the combo system.  You're not looking in the right place if you focus on utilities and nothing else.

 

Ele has a higher skill requirement than most professions, which is why it isn't played s much.  This isn't a failure of design.

Yes.  I regularly give advice on how to play ele well.  I do this because ele is, IMO, the most fun profession in the game.  

And I can do that for every single profession in the game.  

I don't believe you.  From the way you write and the things you say it reads as disingenuous.  I have had other people tell me not to bother speaking to you, and I have yet to see evidence against this assertion.  

Berserker include his healing in his rotation for f1 skill reload who is 5 sec of 33% damage done converted into healing , bad choice for your example i just don't go trough all classes , but if you want.

Harbringer looses health but conversion when he looses stacks blight heals him trough the whole rotation

spellbreaker has a block who deals damage if blocked successfull

mirage has an insane amount of téléportation in his meta kit.

Chrono has f5 who can rewind him in his previous state.

Ele as catalyst has built in defense too but weaver and catalyst not ( tempest has -7% damage taken indeed from prot. but that's far from enough to a class cursed with such long cast time)

It's your right to not believe me , but trust me i've tried every class in the game and while some of them don't appeal to me i can recognize the + they bring , as for ele i don't see any , just my point of view and as you stated somebody has too have the lowest armor and lowest hp , but why both ? also why is it the class with loest armor and hp who has to be one of the most complicated , ele coukld really be at same hp as mesmer has today , won't hurt the class even a bit.

2 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

most fun profession in the game.  

Your point of view again 

2 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

No they aren't.  

So you telling me weaver going water with sword doesnt loose any damage .... c'mon water sword skills hit like a wet noodle... , same for catalyst if you play alac/dps you either don't go air if condi or either don't go earth if power, if the class has big complication to be played well it should stand up in the meta as highest damage pumper , that's the acse on the non moving raid training golem , i've done enough pugs and static to know why ppl don't play it , but i can tell tempest has one , only one thing going well for him and that's rebound , rebound is maybe the only thing that would make me play tempest, a bit sad that for me it has only this value.

2 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Most of Ele's functions come from it's weapon skills and it's traits

Like the 8 other classes ....

And if ppl tell you to not speak with me they can tell it here and state the reason why they feel i don't have the right to be talked too , i don't feel like cowards private message texting has any value , maybe they just lack b * l l s are afraid for a report, or those ppl have no valid points to make , i am open to discussion and i am happy to write with ppl having different opinions and take on this class i despise , those ppl don't have to worry i am not the kind of guy who report everyone for a little pinch of salt or even insults. Don't missundertand me , i am happy to write and take on criticism with ppl like you who seemingly play ele and enjoy it , i would say good for you i am just dissapointed the ele is the only class i cannot get with , maybe it's me , but deeply inside i feel personnaly the ele lack a lot of things.

Edited December 15, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[draxynnic.3719]

11 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Eles have more than you would think, it just requires swapping attunements to get to the next evade, or even having taken the relevant weapon to begin with. Things like Arcane Shield are very underrated. 

As do other professions. I'm not claiming elementalist is defenseless here, just observing that its defenses are weighted more towards outsustaining pressure than surviving spikes. You might note that even @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 was focusing on what is, essentially, sustaining through pressure: leveraging a lot of self-healing and self-barrier to be able to almost ignore any pressure that doesn't exceed the resustain. It's a valid approach, but it is an approach that is better suited to some situations than others. If the primary threat is damage spikes, it does make elementalists more vulnerable. In raid-like situations, where ele's resustain is mostly made redundant by the healers and the main threat is often damage that exceeds what a dedicated healer can outheal, ele is often vulnerable.

It's also worth noting that another part of ele's package tends to be good access to defensive self-boons, which also tend to be redundant in raid-like scenarios.

There's good reason why you can have elementalist being virtually unkillable in competitive mode duels while also having the downed state meta meme in PvE. Its defensive set works very well in competitive, and in pressure situations in PvE. However, elementalist is probably the profession least able to handle a big hit from a boss. Not unable to handle, to be sure, but with players of equal skill, it is likely to be the elementalist that drops. (Unless it's an attack that deals percentage-of-max-HP damage, in which case ele benefits from being easier to heal back to full.)

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

6 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

It's your right to not believe me , but trust me i've tried every class in the game and while some of them don't appeal to me i can recognize the + they bring , as for ele i don't see any

The reason why I don't trust you is because of this:  

20 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Also i don't see how glyph of storms is a defensive ability , you cast it in earth to blind trash mobs ?

You write this as if it is the first time you've ever considered pulsing blinds as a defensive option.  You know, the trick that Necromancers, Thieves, Engineers, and Elementalists have been disabling groups with since launch?  The one that's still being used in non-boss Fractals to this day?  Even rangers got this option when the smokescale was introduced.  See, a person who is really well versed and experienced with every profession in every kind of content is going to know this.  Either you're interfacing with the game at such a low intellectual level that your experiences are all worthless, or you're not telling the truth.  

[zeyeti.8347]

2 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

The reason why I don't trust you is because of this:  

You write this as if it is the first time you've ever considered pulsing blinds as a defensive option.  You know, the trick that Necromancers, Thieves, Engineers, and Elementalists have been disabling groups with since launch?  The one that's still being used in non-boss Fractals to this day?  Even rangers got this option when the smokescale was introduced.  See, a person who is really well versed and experienced with every profession in every kind of content is going to know this.  Either you're interfacing with the game at such a low intellectual level that your experiences are all worthless, or you're not telling the truth.  

https://killproof.me/proof/b8RE

I don't really like to bolster up or throw myself flowers on but here is the data , the character i've played the most is my ele about the +11000 hours played almost the half is on my ele , at some state i didn't care much about pve open world and only do endgame content , and i considered what you say about blind being just usefull for adds , but being an endgame enjoyer battling with adds come to me as rare occasion so i don't really see the use of it as adds are quickly dispatched by cleave and the only one sturdy enough to stay alive have a breakbar so not affected quite effectively by blind , and do trash mobs damages justify the use of a 40 sec cd skill ? being honest here if i play catalyst i would greatly appreciate more glyph of storms in air for multi hit energy loader faster.

I don't know what you have for exp. (maybe you are with an alt on this forum , can't really tell) but you haven't done the hardest part of endgame content by the data of your current account , i don't count xjj cm and aether hideout as "hard" part of the game, neither i consider my own kill on the hardest content of the game very effective , have to be honest : my static was 3 times a bit of lucky.

So you can judge me , but by data proof i have more exp. on the game than you , again i don't judge here you maybe on an alt on the forum , as say my moto text : i only trust what i see.

and no i didn't pay for it 3times....

I have ppl who enjoy playing ele as support tempest mainly , but they agree too the class has many weaknesses other classes don't have to deal with and we have to adapt for some of those weaknesses but i agree on one point : the ele is fun and well designed (in theory) the element switch feels like a real elementalist and not a only specialized in fire or whatsoever . Don't tell me tempest can cover as much aegis and stab than firebrand can ... I only play it on dhumm cm for bomb ignoring mech while greater deathmark occurs and on sabir for ignoring tornado once on a 2 launch. The class is too punishing and have complexity for no real reward behind , for me it feels like a glass canon , but the canon is sort of a regular canon who doesnt deal much more damage than non glass classes, ofc it is sufficiant in most of the content of the game , but i cannot get off with the idea that ele at the state how it is now is lacking a lot of things for no real purpose, the reason it is not played isn't only it is complicated or because ppl are afraid of it , it is a pretty simple question : why do i take an ele for ? do i get more damage trough his complexity ? are somewhat the heals and boon application more effective ? what justify the lowest hp and armor of this class ?

You will say i complain a lot without bringing solution , that's true , but i've done a fully rework on my own on doc.text(for fun) but i am too lazy to traduce from fernch to english and i was one of those ppl who asked for a rework for Empowered Empowerment , the thoughts were stacks being +100% more effective with a 6 or 7 treshold instead of 10 , so you don't have a trait who is actively efficient 50% of the time , you will ofc say it can be done 100% of the time , and i say : on the raid golem training. Kind of happy with the rework of 50% more efficient and 100% at 10 but again we will have new weapons in few months and ele with the weird pistol and another complexity added to the class is not gonna shine , while mesmer rifle , warrior staff, scepter for rev are gonna add some next extend to already existing support and open new ones , the tempest with no rework whatsoever is gonna be left behind even more than it is now. All i want is ele having just one single e-spec who is not punishing and justify the low hp/armor or a support who brings something to the table that other classes don't have , i kind of miss the old tempest 10 man healing it has his unique ways of being efficient , the alac/quick meta for support has a bit ruined the elementalist for me.

And low intellectual level my a** ! if you want the peepee comparison i gave you proof of my own knowledge , now you can give me yours.... gonna see who is the slow brain...

Edited December 16, 2023 by zeyeti.8347