The new player Problem: Accumulation of wealth and skill, downfall of MMO's

[Parasite.5389]

that still isn't answering the question...

in response to:

2 hours ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

Matter of perspective. Old expansions should become cheaper anyways. Also untrue if you consider Living world content. If I want to buy a friend all the Content i have i have to pay more then i did myself for my content, because i got LW mostly for free.

you were asked how thee current price of  $100 for the complete game incl. all living world is more expensive than the original seperate prices of $195.

you're full of skritt

[SlayerXX.7138]

Just now, Parasite.5389 said:

you were asked how thee current price of  $100 for the complete game incl. all living world is more expensive than the original seperate prices of $195.

you're full of skritt

Talk like a civilized Person, clearly and with intent to come to a conclusion. Don't just spew words out like you in a bar with 10 beer in you.
The answer is simple. I started not at the beginning but after PoF. So some bucks for PoF+ HoT and Eod. Probably 60 bucks. 100% less then 100 bucks. LW was free.

[SlayerXX.7138]

8 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

And while we're at it, quick reminder that after receiving explanation for "where I struggle" (...with what you're saying), you didn't clear anything out.

Because you didn't ask. You just changed the goalpost and started yelling. I did answer in an Edit because you tent to shift the goalpost per post you write. Seems like that trick of mine didn't workXD.

10 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Ah, "deals" -in that case Hot+PoF is 7,50€; EoD is is 15€ and SotO is 25. So 47,5€  actually. It's probably more content too.

Still costs more then double. Game hours don't equal content. Also quality is important. Also also it is not like Shadow of modor or Dark arisen are small games.

[Sobx.1758]

18 minutes ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

Because you didn't ask. You just changed the goalpost and started yelling.

Didn't change anything and didn't start "yelling" at any post, not sure what you're on about. You asked what's unclear, I explained what's unclear. If your goal wasn't to clear out what I don't understand then why did you even ask that in the first place? 🙄

18 minutes ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

I did answer in an Edit because you tent to shift the goalpost per post you write.

Again, no -at no point I shifted any goalposts, I'm not sure what you're talking about right now, make sure to include the quotes or stop making this up.

18 minutes ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

Still costs more then double. Game hours don't equal content. Also quality is important. Also also it is not like Shadow of modor or Dark arisen are small games.

Sure. And what you carefully removed from the quote is also still true:
And I'm taking a wild guess (although not that wild) that whatever you listed isn't actively worked on and nobody remembers the last update they received.

If you don't understand the point that was made there: the games  you're listing aren't being worked on for quite some time now. MMOs -including this one- are. Which also directly goes back to pointing out how you're repeatedly coming up with irreleavant comparisons in this thread. Like, you know, comparing a "done product" pricing with "development ongoing" product's pricing and then suggesting that they should follow similar/same paths or it's unfair. But they shouldn't because their situation is not the same at all.

 

 

...so, still: what was the relevance of bringing up runecrafter's as something that impacts new players joining the game? And it's literally the same question I initially asked, so not sure how you came up with that "moving goalposts" accusation:

If you're talking about this edit: "Edit: For the confused People i can provide an explanation for the part where your can't follow the math of gear economics, when you tell me what you don't understand.", you added it 43 minutes after my question and that edit has nothing to do with my question anyways. So if someone's trying to move goalposts there... it wasn't me, thank you.

Edited December 3, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[BluDog.2951]

What is the problem for a new player? Depends on why they play.  I have played this for some while now, (forgot my old account and started over) and have fun questing, crafting and enjoying the story. Not everyone cares about endgame, raiding, grouping, pvp or any of that, this is just a fun activity to do after a day of work. I don't feel like I am falling behind anyone, or like I have to rush to some goal - I play and enjoy!  I may not ever have characters who have finished all the things, and that is ok.  This isn't a competition for me, it is just fun.

[GrayListen.3587]

I will have to disagree with OP.  Guild Wars 2 is one of the easiest and most enjoyable games to play in the modern age as a new player, even if you're going in largely blind.  My wife and I purchased GW2 on launch, and had played for a couple months here or there throughout its existence - but life and other things kept us from committing much time to it, until right around the time of EoD launch.

We came in on fresh characters, nothing of significance in our bank, no money accumulated, no knowledge of the gear system, confused by defiance bars, had to try out various professions for the first day or so, etc.  Without a guild or anyone beyond the two of us to provide guidance, we cleared the main story - leveled our characters "naturally", had a great time, bought all the expansions/LW seasons and went through the game in the order the content was released - which was not difficult to determine.  It was a great experience and it's still crazy to me that all of that content is still there, and that we were able to participate and help in metas and various other events with comparable gear and contribution to folks who'd been playing the game for 8 years straight.  Even the crafting system in this game is so clean and clear compared to other MMOs.  We got into WvW and were surprised to see that mounts existed (warclaws were not a thing that we recalled from the 1-2 matches we played around launch), had to figure that whole thing out, etc.  But none of it was difficult, the wiki is an amazingly helpful resource, and super surprisingly we've been able to do such a huge amount of content without needing a party. 

We were able to play through all of the game's story and open world, hop into PvP matches, rank up in WvW, try different builds, try different gear, learn about different sources of gear, unlock our mounts, pretty much anything we wanted without needing to ask for help beyond the random players who happened to be around.

There's a lot we haven't gotten into - legendaries, various achievements and collections, a lot of the guild stuff is a mystery to us, I'm still afraid to pull most of the levers in WvW, etc.

But considering the age of our characters and when we got into things, I don't think it can be said that GW2 is not accessible for new players.

I do know of various folks who were new to GW2 recently and seemed to have a hard time sticking with it - but they were all too eager to boost themselves to 80, dive headfirst into the "endgame" content, go grab some "meta" build a youtuber recommended, grind out a skyscale via fastest path available and never really just play the game.  Had nothing to do with the game not being new-player friendly, had everything to do with new players just immediately...not wanting to be new players.

And that is a personal problem.

[Danikat.8537]

29 minutes ago, BluDog.2951 said:

What is the problem for a new player? Depends on why they play.  I have played this for some while now, (forgot my old account and started over) and have fun questing, crafting and enjoying the story. Not everyone cares about endgame, raiding, grouping, pvp or any of that, this is just a fun activity to do after a day of work. I don't feel like I am falling behind anyone, or like I have to rush to some goal - I play and enjoy!  I may not ever have characters who have finished all the things, and that is ok.  This isn't a competition for me, it is just fun.

As far as I can tell the OP's complaint is that it will take a long time for a new player to get everything a veteran player has. (Also something about the runecrafter's salvage kit not being as profitable, which seems like the opposite of a problem for players who don't have it, since it's a gem store item - it just means they won't feel pressured to buy it.)

You've summed up the 'solution' to that pretty perfectly. Even if a new player starts GW2 today and is stressing about not having legendary items or a bunch of gem store upgrades or whatever it is they think they need to 'catch up' the solution is for someone to tell them they don't need any of that and can just focus on playing whatever they find fun.

Also the same is true of pretty much any game, including single-player ones. A friend of mine just got Tears of the Kingdom recently and was talking about all the cool armour sets she's seen and wants to get ASAP and I had to tell her to be prepared for the fact that some of them are going to take a lot of time and effort to get. (Possibly too much in some cases, I had to fight a 3-headed elemental dragon for a silly little hat...but it was worth it). That's not because the game has gotten harder (it's only had a few bug fixes, no big changes since it came out) it's just that collecting all the stuff takes a lot of time, and the only reason some people have it 'ahead of' newer players is they did it sooner. (I'll have the opposite situation with that friend when I finally get Baldur's Gate 3 and she'll be telling me about all the stuff I haven't gotten up to yet.)

It's the same with GW2. Yes there's players like me with multiple legendary items (4 weapons and a backpack in my case) but that's not because we were somehow able to get them faster, my first legendary took 13 months from the time I decided to start making it (about 2.5 years from when I started playing) and the quickest one was about 7 months, it's just that I did that years ago. There's also the fact that those are purely cosmetic and convenience items. There's nothing I can do on my main character with 2 legendary weapons that I can't do on an alt with none.

[Mistwraithe.3106]

OP has no suggestions of what should be improved and I actually struggle to work out exactly what they are complaining about.

Anet seem to be working quite hard with the Wizard's Vault (easier gold, ascended, etc) and other recent trends (including remaking LWS1, cheap exotics in WvW, easier skyscale, improving build variety for each profession by making quickness/alacrity/support available to all, etc) to make GW2 more accessible to newer players. I'm pretty sure they regard this as a top priority. There are certainly things they could improve further (top of my list would be fixing the WV penalizing new players with multiple expansions by giving them dailies/weeklies in zones they have never visited) but for this thread to have any potential benefit OP (or others) really need to articulate what they would like improved.

Otherwise it comes across as too vague to be actionable or even really understandable.

[bossdonut.1938]

this might be the easiest MMO ever to just jump into and level up. i dont even see much gold inflation. i only started when the steam version came out and i have a bunch of stuff and puttin together for this new legendary armor

other than ff14 which is basically just an online single player game

[SlayerXX.7138]

4 hours ago, TwoListen.9047 said:

I will have to disagree with OP.  Guild Wars 2 is one of the easiest and most enjoyable games to play in the modern age as a new player, even if you're going in largely blind.  My wife and I purchased GW2 on launch, and had played for a couple months here or there throughout its existence - but life and other things kept us from committing much time to it, until right around the time of EoD launch.

I appreciate the civil respond. Let me take the chance to clarify some things. Yes it one of the easier MMO's to get into, not really games in general. I would guess GW 2 wasn't the first MMO you played. MMO's are getting more niche every year. People like you take breaks, some never return. When i say MMO's don't attract new player I mean it as such. The game genre doesn't attract new players. MMO's just poaching from each other and hoping inactive player getting active again. With online interaction not being as novel as it was at the dawn of MMO I don't see new blood choosing to play MMO's. Why not hop on discord and play minecraft, lol or any other online game you can think of.

[Obtena.7952]

6 hours ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

100 bucks i a lot for game, if you can buy better experience for less cash? Especially with MMO where games "get good after 100 hours" Same is true for most mmo, that's why they all struggle to get new player and die. WoW also wants you to buy everything  and bleeds player Since the Lich king. Like how did I not answer you question?

Actually, $100 isn't that much for a game of this caliber, considering the time you are going to play it and the entertainment value it has. But if it is, well, too bad then. I guess those people aren't playing it. 

But here is the real answer to your whole thread. If a new player doesn't have the capability to get the game and have time to play it, that's not a problem. The game didn't get to where it is today because of the people that DIDN'T spend money on it or time playing it. MMO's are dying ... OK. It's not clear what that kind of doomsaying is going to have to anyone that plays this game or Anet, but you did it anyways. Thanks I guess?

Edited December 4, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[SlayerXX.7138]

10 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

But here is the real answer to your whole thread. If a new player doesn't have the capability to get the game and have time to play it, that's not a problem. The game didn't get to where it is today because of the people that DIDN'T spend money on it or time playing it.

Pretty bold words. I didn't play at the time, but I'm pretty sure GW 2 became Free to play almost instantly after the first expansion dropped. Hell, whoever did manage the gem economy till now is probably the single most valuable employee of the company, by a a lot. People don't appreciate how the restrain with the gem store carried this game for years.

[Hsanrb.1570]

The biggest "new player problem" GW2 has is the fact that unlike other MMO's in which an expansion includes the post expansion content (which was fixed with EoD), if you start HoT or PoF the living world seasons being an additional cost is the biggest confusion. Then people will say "It used to be free if you played when it was live..." and some percentage of the community interprets they can get it for free as well and decide to grind (and optimize said grind) the gold to get the gems to buy the living world seasons. That grind then burns them away from the game, when people would be willing to spend $10-15 for each season when they get there and play through an enjoyable experience. This equates into the situation of "dead content" because people won't do some content because the reward isn't worth the time commitment to get new players through the parts of the story in which that content is tied to. Ever done Tower of Nightmares lately? What about Twisted Marionette? That is the 2nd big red flag, but thats a community problem with the way they interact with content... not with how ArenaNet has developed the content. 

Those are literally the only problems a new player can bump into. The pathway to exotics isn't demanding, the progression system of masteries is a bit janky... but having experience for each expansion gets people to play each expansion instead of banking xp in 1 world to get mastery in another. The story content isn't difficult so people can experience it, and the other forms of content still provide relevant challenge because the gear threshold doesn't move from one expansion to the next. Every expansion still holds value in 2023, where as some games pretty much keep them around for legacy with no purpose besides "This was here and fun at some point..."

Does this design turn away "power users"? Its a consideration, but it also discourages players from only having to play GW2 to keep up when you can keep the same persistent build and experiment with other professions with little to no real grind because of the persistent account progression, and just having to get a few hero points. I've saved up enough tomes to level 3 characters from 1-80 with the only restriction being "get to a bank" and I could probably level crafters on them to reduce the # of tomes I need.

 

13 minutes ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

I appreciate the civil respond. Let me take the chance to clarify some things. Yes it one of the easier MMO's to get into, not really games in general. I would guess GW 2 wasn't the first MMO you played. MMO's are getting more niche every year. People like you take breaks, some never return. When i say MMO's don't attract new player I mean it as such. The game genre doesn't attract new players. MMO's just poaching from each other and hoping inactive player getting active again. With online interaction not being as novel as it was at the dawn of MMO I don't see new blood choosing to play MMO's. Why not hop on discord and play minecraft, lol or any other online game you can think of.

MMO's aren't poaching from each other, if you look at the top 7-10 MMO's currently on the market each game has something unique that makes it shine brighter than the other games. When a new game releases, everyone flocks to it because its new... but when it doesn't scratch the same itch as the game they originally played they go back. This isn't a problem with any particular game, it only becomes a problem when you struggle to find players to do content with. People overestimate how many players any particular game needs to stay in a healthy state, and despite the genre being "in decline" most games continue to remain alive despite the change in the tide. Combined with the new era of connectedness (as much as I hate the discord era of gaming), and its ok that people play other games if the one they enjoy stops being interesting. Its a cycle, and developers need to embrace the cycle knowing 60% of players will drift away once the expansion hype has died off.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I'm 95% sure this is just muckraking.  However, there is one point, a small one, that they are correct on.  When it comes to high end fractals, strikes, and raids, there is a very big legacy cost.

If SotO goes sour and I never end up buying it, my days of Fractals and Raids are over.  In order to remain competitive, I'll need to go with builds that will require ownership of every single expansion, otherwise I won't be able to equip the proper weapons and traits.  I could try to PHIW it, but the devs are balancing around the new combinations, so everything I'm doing is nerfed.  In theory I could complete this content with what I have, however the people necessary to complete it with will refuse to let me join their groups, and they will refuse to join mine.  The social hurdle becomes too great.

Likewise, for new players if you don't have full ascended gear with infusion, kiss your chances of joining a static goodbye.  Most of the statis I looked at require 90% benchmarks, which are impossible in exotic gear.  

[kharmin.7683]

5 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I'm 95% sure this is just muckraking.  However, there is one point, a small one, that they are correct on.  When it comes to high end fractals, strikes, and raids, there is a very big legacy cost.

If SotO goes sour and I never end up buying it, my days of Fractals and Raids are over.  In order to remain competitive, I'll need to go with builds that will require ownership of every single expansion, otherwise I won't be able to equip the proper weapons and traits.  I could try to PHIW it, but the devs are balancing around the new combinations, so everything I'm doing is nerfed.  In theory I could complete this content with what I have, however the people necessary to complete it with will refuse to let me join their groups, and they will refuse to join mine.  The social hurdle becomes too great.

Likewise, for new players if you don't have full ascended gear with infusion, kiss your chances of joining a static goodbye.  Most of the statis I looked at require 90% benchmarks, which are impossible in exotic gear.  

Probably true, but then why are new players striving to get in to this high end content right from the start?  What groups would take them, even if they had BiS gear, if they don't know the mechanics of the game or their profession?  I doubt that many would.

[Ashantara.8731]

20 hours ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

MMO's are failing. It is nearly impossible for newbys to get into a game.

1. If they are failing, it's because jobs get constantly axed.

2. Newbies have it much better than veterans in GW2, because they still have tons of content to enjoy, while veteran players get drip-fed new content every 3-4 months (and the level of quality and quantity of said content is also very inconsistent).

[Qys.5937]

Other people running around in legendary gear and piles of gold do not stop me from playing the game. I will say the skyscales in events can be a tad annoying particularly in lower level zones where stuff melts fast. (Glad someone told me just spam boons on all the high levels fighting). By and large a new player isn't effected by anything other than maybe envy. You also see some effects from inflation but I must say this game manages that better than others I've played with both gold and material sinks. 

[Obtena.7952]

9 hours ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

Pretty bold words. I didn't play at the time, but I'm pretty sure GW 2 became Free to play almost instantly after the first expansion dropped. Hell, whoever did manage the gem economy till now is probably the single most valuable employee of the company, by a a lot. People don't appreciate how the restrain with the gem store carried this game for years.

They aren't bold words, they are true words.

If you can't handle playing the game, it's not a problem for the game. It's not a problem for how the game was designed. The proof is that the game hasn't failed because some players can't handle it. 

The 'entry cost' for people to get the game, equip themselves decently and be ready for the endgame is about as low as it gets without trivializing it or making it a unsustainable business for Anet, so doomsaying the 'downfall of MMO's' and other daft things like that isn't really a compelling argument to change it or care.

GS carried the game? Of course, that's the WHOLE business model around the game since day 1. What's the point of stating the obvious?

Edited December 4, 2023 by Obtena.7952