Ambush rework

[Yogurt Goblin.5934]

I've been playing Mesmer quite a bit recently, and I feel like the ambush attacks need reworking.

Mostly moving alacrity away from just staff and giving Mirage the Untamed treatment and make it so the ambush attack on every weapon gives alacrity, but at a reduced rate. Maybe keep the staff alacrity the same so if people want to keep the current staff/staff full dps alac build then they can, but it would give other people who don't mind adding a little extra boon duration to their build extra options when it comes to builds.

Ideally this change would come before the rifle going live to allow alacheal mirage an actual chance to compete against xheal chrono.

[Geronmy.3298]

They have been working to destroy alac staxe for a year or so now, they won't allow this build back in for some reason, even after destroying confusion on bosses where it shone.

Easier for them would be to just add alac to the rifle ambush and some other boons.

[Waffles.5632]

They technically already reworked alac with mirage mantle trait. And yes I know that's not really a rework, but Anet called it as such basically. So that is what we got. I doubt they will rework it yet again so soon.

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

One thing I'd add is that I'd rather they replace Vigor with Protection on the Ambush skill. Mirage doesn't want to shatter clones carelessly, and so Protection access suffers as a result. 

Alternatively the Ambush could provide both Vigor and Protection, since self-providing Vigor means a hypothetical Heal Mirage could self-sufficiently Ambush and heal more.

[Curunen.8729]

The thing I don't get is why they push mainly the either dual staff or dual axe setup in pve. I know staff/axe can be played now for damage taking the axe trait, but still it seems two of the same weapon have been encouraged beyond what I would imagine the original idea for weapon swap was.

Because it entirely hinges on the existence of energy sigils - if no energy sigils then the entire concept falls apart. It's kind of abusing a system that is held together by one piece of gear.

Same with eg dagger/dagger - in order to make use of relic of the demon queen or midnight king.

I don't begrudge anyone who prefers staff/staff, axe/axe or dagger/dagger, but seriously it would be nice for weapon swap to be encouraged for builds that swap to different weapons, whether for providing alacrity or other.

[Waffles.5632]

7 hours ago, Curunen.8729 said:

I don't begrudge anyone who prefers staff/staff, axe/axe or dagger/dagger, but seriously it would be nice for weapon swap to be encouraged for builds that swap to different weapons, whether for providing alacrity or other.

I loved staxe mirage. Going from axe/pistol to staff and back was just awesome, like a dance. I wish anet didn't kill it like they did. Butchered our boy. This was my tribute:

 

Dagger is fun but Staxe was king.

Give Mirage Alac access to all ambushes with the Mirage Mantle trait. Do it Anet.

Doing this allows Desert Distortion to be the defensive choice, Mirage Mantle to be the utility/support choice, and Mirrored Axes to be the dps choice.

In fact you can change Mirrored Axes to Mirrored Lenses (just make up w/e) and have it buff all ambushes in an offensive way, like how current mirage mantle works on some ambushes (like dagger applying vuln). This would really go a long way and while you're at it change speed of sand to self proc swiftness. 🤧

Edited December 5, 2023 by Waffles.5632

[Vinny.7260]

12 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

I loved staxe mirage. Going from axe/pistol to staff and back was just awesome, like a dance. I wish anet didn't kill it like they did. Butchered our boy. This was my tribute:

 

Dagger is fun but Staxe was king.

Give Mirage Alac access to all ambushes with the Mirage Mantle trait. Do it Anet.

Doing this allows Desert Distortion to be the defensive choice, Mirage Mantle to be the utility/support choice, and Mirrored Axes to be the dps choice.

In fact you can change Mirrored Axes to Mirrored Lenses (just make up w/e) and have it buff all ambushes in an offensive way, like how current mirage mantle works on some ambushes (like dagger applying vuln). This would really go a long way and while you're at it change speed of sand to self proc swiftness. 🤧

I was NOT ready for that music LOL.

 

Mirage Mantle should be like: "Grant nearby allies boons when using an ambush; your ambushes are improved." Change the boon on Staff to grant Resolution, also change Rifle's bonus to remove conditions. Obviously Alacrity would be the boon on ambush, but probably not in PvP. Maybe make it Protection in PvP instead. Following with implication of a mantle. Still has synergy with Infinite Horizon, all that jazz.

[Micah.3789]

Totally agree that Mirage Mantle should get tweaked to grant Alacrity on all ambush skills. Being pigeon-holed into 2x staff massively limits clone generation, which is a huge struggle for an alacheal mirage. The recent changes to support trait lines put a heavy emphasis on shattering for heals and boons. Shattering nearly on CD is required, but quickly generating back to 3x clones to maintain mirage cloaks is nearly impossible with 2x staff. If we could use a scepter and still generate alacrity, it would massively improve the viability of this playstyle. This would also address the lack of synergy mirage has with the upcoming heal/support rifle.

Being forced to use ONLY staff feels bad, but being rewarded for using a staff at all could be nice. Maybe a Mirage Mantle rework that keeps the individual weapon effects, but adds alacrity to all ambush skills at a slightly reduced duration. Staff's unique effect could then be a very small boon extension or just a small amount of additional alacrity that brings it back up to the current values. That way other weapons could be used for alacrity, but require a bit more boon duration. If creating an alacrity disparity between staff and other weapons isn't deemed necessary, staff could instead grant another under represented boon like resistance, resolution, swiftness and/or vigor.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

How did I miss this thread? Oh the people that I've failed to kitten off, I am so disappointed in myself.

6 hours ago, Micah.3789 said:

Totally agree that Mirage Mantle should get tweaked to grant Alacrity on all ambush skills.

I'm not picking on you, I'm just grabbing you because you seem to accurately grab the entire sentiment of this entire thread. Would someone kindly explain to me why the MIRAGE should be getting Alacrity at all? As in, in the first place? Let's look at the Mirage from a thematic perspective. They are the desert dwelling mesmers that took their name from the hazy hallucinations from the rising heat during the day. And they are savage. They weild axes to carve up their targets, ambushing them from all directions, teleporting from point to point, assassinating entire groups single handedly while being literally untouchable like the mid-day haze. WHAT PART OF THAT JUST SCREAMS ALACRITY TO YOU.

I have not been quiet about my absolute disgust and white-hot hatred for the current meta. All I see every time this conversation comes up is that people don't want mesmers, they want alacrity monkeys. And you can pick your favorite flavor! You can have the red alacrity monkey, or the blue alacrity monkey, or you can even have the green alacrity monkey! It's your choice so long as you want to play the alacrity monkey! I'm at the point now where I'm actually starting to wish the CHRONOMANCER had never gotten alacrity and it had never been added to the game at all because then we could talk about something else other than "My favorite espec doesn't get enough alacrity!". I'm just so tired of it. The Mirage doesn't need alacrity. It doesn't deserve alacrity, and all y'all don't actually care about mesmers at all, you'd play whatever profession gave the most alacrity and probably ruin that too.

You know what the mirage SHOULD have gotten? Distortion. Yes, they already have the Mirage Cloak but what they SHOULD have gotten was a way to grant Distortion to other party members instead of alacrity. We've had distortion forever, having a class that specialized in it and could share it would have been new, unique, and thematic. And can you imagine what that would have been like if you could grant, say, one or two seconds of distortion to 5 people? That would have been like Aegis on steroids since Aegis only blocks ONE thing, Distortion makes you immune to EVERYTHING. But no, we didn't get that. Instead they put kittening alacrity on ONE weapon for the Mirage and now that is LITERALLY the only thing anyone cares about anymore. THIS more than anything pushes me away from even wanting to play mesmer anymore, and I have been playing mesmer since beta.

[Geronmy.3298]

6 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

How did I miss this thread? Oh the people that I've failed to kitten off, I am so disappointed in myself.

I'm not picking on you, I'm just grabbing you because you seem to accurately grab the entire sentiment of this entire thread. Would someone kindly explain to me why the MIRAGE should be getting Alacrity at all? As in, in the first place? Let's look at the Mirage from a thematic perspective. They are the desert dwelling mesmers that took their name from the hazy hallucinations from the rising heat during the day. And they are savage. They weild axes to carve up their targets, ambushing them from all directions, teleporting from point to point, assassinating entire groups single handedly while being literally untouchable like the mid-day haze. WHAT PART OF THAT JUST SCREAMS ALACRITY TO YOU.

I have not been quiet about my absolute disgust and white-hot hatred for the current meta. All I see every time this conversation comes up is that people don't want mesmers, they want alacrity monkeys. And you can pick your favorite flavor! You can have the red alacrity monkey, or the blue alacrity monkey, or you can even have the green alacrity monkey! It's your choice so long as you want to play the alacrity monkey! I'm at the point now where I'm actually starting to wish the CHRONOMANCER had never gotten alacrity and it had never been added to the game at all because then we could talk about something else other than "My favorite espec doesn't get enough alacrity!". I'm just so tired of it. The Mirage doesn't need alacrity. It doesn't deserve alacrity, and all y'all don't actually care about mesmers at all, you'd play whatever profession gave the most alacrity and probably ruin that too.

You know what the mirage SHOULD have gotten? Distortion. Yes, they already have the Mirage Cloak but what they SHOULD have gotten was a way to grant Distortion to other party members instead of alacrity. We've had distortion forever, having a class that specialized in it and could share it would have been new, unique, and thematic. And can you imagine what that would have been like if you could grant, say, one or two seconds of distortion to 5 people? That would have been like Aegis on steroids since Aegis only blocks ONE thing, Distortion makes you immune to EVERYTHING. But no, we didn't get that. Instead they put kittening alacrity on ONE weapon for the Mirage and now that is LITERALLY the only thing anyone cares about anymore. THIS more than anything pushes me away from even wanting to play mesmer anymore, and I have been playing mesmer since beta.

You miss the point everytime you post. I am gonna answer just as easy. If you don't want to play alac mirage you don't have to. You can always play the full dps as everyone else does. More people want more diversity.And is just as all other specs have been granted a boon like alac or quickness, to have more variety of builds. You talk like having  alacrity will destroy or force you to play the build and nothing else when that has never been the case.

And if we guide ourselves by your made up rules, why can mesmer heal at all? The only way Chrono should heal is by rewinding time itself to its allies but that brings more problems to the table. Just like your horrible idea of granting distortion partywide instead of aegis.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Geronmy.3298

[mirage.8046]

Uhhh absolutely no way would alacrity be given to all ambush skills; our skills would have their damage nerfed because of alacrity. Everyone would use better weapons over staff anyway because they attack faster or offer more mobility. Maybe it was a bad idea to put it on to the mirage mantle trait. Also, while on the subject of mirage's traits, I would favor swapping desert distortion with one of the other major traits so we can once again chain chaos vortex after gaining distortion. Maybe make infinite horizon baseline, and make dune shards apply stolen boons to allies (and give it a two-part effect if enemies don't have boons, like bleeding or cripple).

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

i feel like it was a mistake to give mirage alacrity to begin with, as it effectively put chronomancer in the dumpster for many years. arenanet seems to realise this mistake too, and has done everything they can to discourage mirage from bringing alacrity without outright removing it.

Edited December 20, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Micah.3789]

8 hours ago, mirage.8046 said:

Uhhh absolutely no way would alacrity be given to all ambush skills; our skills would have their damage nerfed because of alacrity. Everyone would use better weapons over staff anyway because they attack faster or offer more mobility.

Staff is so strong right now that it's used in the condi dps build that currently tops the benchmarks. Every other weapon is weaker except for axe, which is partially dependent on the Mirrored Axes trait. Balancing a version of Mirage Mantle that gives alacrity on any ambush skill is as simple as tuning down base axe to bring it in line with other weapons (without traits). Then tune Phantasmal Seeking Axe (Mirrored Axes) up to bring the pure dps build back up to a reasonable output. It's the same exact approach for basically every other class that provides quick/alac from a trait: competing dps trait that creates a 6-10k dps trade-off for bringing boons. Frankly, the recent buff to axe clone autos is pretty ridiculous and would be an ideal target for tuning down to make room for this.

14 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Would someone kindly explain to me why the MIRAGE should be getting Alacrity at all? As in, in the first place? Let's look at the Mirage from a thematic perspective.

First of all, let me just say that I appreciate your consideration of themes and archetypes when approaching builds/specs. It's actually something we have in common. What I don't appreciate is your rabid rejection of anything that doesn't conform to your ideals and interpretations. You characterize anyone who wants alacrity on mirage as betraying the class fantasy, but ignorantly assume that your vision for the class is the intended precept. Criticism out of the way; I'll answer your actual question even though you seemed to assume there would be no good answer.

MY mirage fantasy takes more inspiration from an oasis. An illusionary respite that sooths and refreshes the mind and spirit. This interpretation is well supported by the oasis themed skill and trait that provide healing and regeneration respectively. It may not be the quintessential mirage, but it's no less valid. Along these lines, I see alacrity as a recovery type boon. Affected allies recover more quickly and are able to act again with less "recharge time". I interpret it as a source of repose that improves the rate of recuperation, much like an oasis in a desert. 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Micah.3789

[ShadowKatt.6740]

13 hours ago, Micah.3789 said:

First of all, let me just say that I appreciate your consideration of themes and archetypes when approaching builds/specs. It's actually something we have in common. What I don't appreciate is your rabid rejection of anything that doesn't conform to your ideals and interpretations. You characterize anyone who wants alacrity on mirage as betraying the class fantasy, but ignorantly assume that your vision for the class is the intended precept. Criticism out of the way; I'll answer your actual question even though you seemed to assume there would be no good answer.

MY mirage fantasy takes more inspiration from an oasis. An illusionary respite that sooths and refreshes the mind and spirit. This interpretation is well supported by the oasis themed skill and trait that provide healing and regeneration respectively. It may not be the quintessential mirage, but it's no less valid. Along these lines, I see alacrity as a recovery type boon. Affected allies recover more quickly and are able to act again with less "recharge time". I interpret it as a source of repose that improves the rate of recuperation, much like an oasis in a desert. 

See? That's what a REAL response looks like. It addresses the originating comment, provides a thought out response AND a counterpoint. THAT'S how it's done. Seems to be a lost art though.

I like your idea of the oasis, but I disagree though perhaps that is my ignorance. I looked at the traits again and the only one I saw that was related to healing was Renewing Oasis that does give regeneration, but I didn't see much more than that. I don't think it's that important though. What I think is much more interesting is our interpretation of Alacrity as a whole. You see it as a recovery type of boon, much like regeneration. I see it as an offensive boon, much like might or fury, and perhaps I'm wrong there, but also perhaps it's because I always see alacrity demanded in terms of even further boosting DPS, which is something a lot of players are arguing is out of control in the current meta. But I suppose it is a tool, it's not specifically made for either one of those purposes, it simply is. Which in that case, perhaps we should look at it as a tool being abused though I'm not sure what the solution is there short of take the tools away.