CafPow.1542 Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 (edited) 3 hours ago, Lalary.3561 said: So you do admit that celestial or whatever bunker stats are carrying your skill-less play against these power builds? You don't think these same power stat users will drop in 4 seconds if you actually fought back with skillful play? „Skillful Play“ a.k.a. Who can oneshot faster. some people… “noooo you can’t just say that fighting 2 minutes and cycling through all your abilities and timing them right and cancelling your CC to lure out dodgerolls is more skillfull than me, pressing my 2 button rofl-delete-berserker combo reeeeeeee!!!!!“ this thread got really funny. Edited January 15 by CafPow.1542 4 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyreva.1078 Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 (edited) You know that berserker's gear is only 1 among almost 50 different attribute combinations? And that many of those stat combinationa offer a bunch of defensive stats and are perfectly viable options for countering oneshot builds? If only there wasn't a single overpowered combination that renders all of those others useless ... Asking for cele nerfs has abolutely nothing to do with wanting to oneshot players (I have never been a big fan of that sort of playstyle). It's about having options and build variety. Edited January 15 by Zyreva.1078 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CafPow.1542 Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 1 hour ago, Zyreva.1078 said: You know that berserker's gear is only 1 among almost 50 different attribute combinations? And that many of those stat combinationa offer a bunch of defensive stats and are perfectly viable options for countering oneshot builds? If only there wasn't a single overpowered combination that renders all of those others useless ... Asking for cele nerfs has abolutely nothing to do with wanting to oneshot players (I have never been a big fan of that sort of playstyle). It's about having options and build variety. Yeahh awesome. I just get minstrels gear which also gets a lot of complaints but with said gear i can’t even kill a dolyak by myself. Woohoo. tell ya what. Let’s say we nerf cele by deleting concentration (and maybe toughness or expertise or something), the oneshotter would still face the same issue cause i only have to counter the 2 second burst window. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 3 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said: „Skillful Play“ a.k.a. Who can oneshot faster. some people… “noooo you can’t just say that fighting 2 minutes and cycling through all your abilities and timing them right and cancelling your CC to lure out dodgerolls is more skillfull than me, pressing my 2 button rofl-delete-berserker combo reeeeeeee!!!!!“ this thread got really funny. Is this for real? Zerker - you make a mistake you die. You fail your burst you have to survive with no passive defenses for X time until you can burst again. Cele - you make a mistake, no biggie, you can make a bunch more due to the huge amount of sustain and sustain damage, heck you can even 1vx easily. Just play fresh air ele and cele ele and say which one requires a brain. 3 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connor.2180 Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 (edited) In my opinion Anet needs to reduce the effectiveness of concentration/boon duration in WvW. Cele was fine before concentration and expertise were added, and I don't consider expertise a high value stat considering the amount of cleanses in WvW. The EoD specs are overbloated with boon application and since EoD other elites and core specs are being buffed in similar ways. Everybody from solo roamers to blob players are stacking boon duration now, Pack, durability, traveler, water runes all very popular picks. Reducing the amount of boon duration gained from concentration across the board in WvW would be a soft nerf to cele without killing it, and a soft nerf to unstoppable boonballs too. Base boon durations wouldn't need to change and power builds wouldn't suffer from this. IMO boon duration is the problem across all WvW not celestial specifically. There is not enough of a trade off for high boon duration considering the massive sustain and damage advantages boon uptime brings in comparison to raw stats alone. Edited January 15 by connor.2180 more info 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyreva.1078 Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 9 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said: tell ya what. Let’s say we nerf cele by deleting concentration (and maybe toughness or expertise or something), the oneshotter would still face the same issue cause i only have to counter the 2 second burst window. Exactly, so what's the problem of just reverting those unneccessary and broken buffs to cele gear? 1 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CafPow.1542 Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 8 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said: Zerker - you make a mistake you die. You fail your burst you have to survive with no passive defenses for X time until you can burst again. Yeah because you just have your 2-5 button burst where everything falls down. 9/10 fights is just burst down lol. if not, you run away. Very hard indeed. i wouldn’t say that cele needs so muc skill but i would never imagine myself to be a high-skilled gamerlegend only because i play in a certain way. That’s just silly, that’s my point. you can play very good or very bad, it can take a lot of skill or no skill at all, and all of that has nothing to do with the stats you use so don’t rub yourself cause you’re using stat XY. 4 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuks.8241 Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 How is it a fair trade of if you get way more stats? Also there is a "cap" on surviveability. Basically you need only as much defence that you survive, everything else is redundant. And cele gives enough that there is hardly any trade off. Yeah it's dmg is not bursty on most builds. But on a condi build with a good hybrid weapon it's pressure is immense. These hybrid weapons are also a problem in combination with cele. A condi weapon with good power coefs. If all weapons had clear roles it would be much more fair. Most of these weapons were tied to elite specs but are now open for everyone. Also lately they went and buffed power coeffs on some condi weapons. 2 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widebody.5071 Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 On 1/10/2024 at 2:33 AM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said: What's the cele tradeoff? It's not the build, it's the armor quantity of stats which amounts for ~50% more than any other gear stats and it's so obnoxious that it became bis to most professions, which in turn became monkey brain skill level. The stats are great any game I play I strive to get stats similar to Cele. It's like a true knight stat set. If a person just want to be a team player and add cover for the DPS builds (yet no one complaining about glass cannon builds, hmm) it's the build to go with, especially if going up against boon balls. That way a person can monkey all over an enemy zerg (running around like Optimus Prime dipping and dodging😁) as long as they watch their cooldowns and keep a stab and condi clear in reserve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widebody.5071 Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 The thing about Cele is it's available to everyone, along with the food and accessories that shares similar stats. Folks just have to put the time in to craft them. I had my account 8 years (only active the 1st 2 years) before I crafted my first ascended item. It doesn't matter how long you played or how often you play, just start crafting when you get ready and enjoy the game till that time comes. Knight's gear carried me all that time. Doing PVE content and clearing maps will provide allot of the materials needed for your ascent journey. No special items needed just do regular content. Utilize home instances, level 500 crafting, and various in-game converters to convert junk finds into nice cgrafting material automatically. Many obtained by clearing PVE content. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widebody.5071 Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 (edited) 7 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said: Exactly, so what's the problem of just reverting those unneccessary and broken buffs to cele gear? Because it's not necessary, it's more of a operator malfunction if anything. Folks wanting to be catered to instead of learning about different builds and tactics. Like I said last week [get yourself some Cele, find a nice little boon ball and start picking folks off, then watch the forums light the following week]. I hate being right about things like this. 😔 Edited January 16 by Widebody.5071 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widebody.5071 Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 11 hours ago, connor.2180 said: In my opinion Anet needs to reduce the effectiveness of concentration/boon duration in WvW. Cele was fine before concentration and expertise were added, and I don't consider expertise a high value stat considering the amount of cleanses in WvW. The EoD specs are overbloated with boon application and since EoD other elites and core specs are being buffed in similar ways. Everybody from solo roamers to blob players are stacking boon duration now, Pack, durability, traveler, water runes all very popular picks. Reducing the amount of boon duration gained from concentration across the board in WvW would be a soft nerf to cele without killing it, and a soft nerf to unstoppable boonballs too. Base boon durations wouldn't need to change and power builds wouldn't suffer from this. IMO boon duration is the problem across all WvW not celestial specifically. There is not enough of a trade off for high boon duration considering the massive sustain and damage advantages boon uptime brings in comparison to raw stats alone. Maybe they can just lower condi damage, duaration and rise it's cooldowns to be on par with power damage. That'll solve allot of problems. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CafPow.1542 Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 9 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said: How is it a fair trade of if you get way more stats? Also there is a "cap" on surviveability. Basically you need only as much defence that you survive, everything else is redundant. And cele gives enough that there is hardly any trade off. Yeah it's dmg is not bursty on most builds. But on a condi build with a good hybrid weapon it's pressure is immense. These hybrid weapons are also a problem in combination with cele. A condi weapon with good power coefs. If all weapons had clear roles it would be much more fair. Most of these weapons were tied to elite specs but are now open for everyone. Also lately they went and buffed power coeffs on some condi weapons. Now it’s the weapons. Okay. i don’t know anymore. 1 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyreva.1078 Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 17 hours ago, Widebody.5071 said: Because it's not necessary, it's more of a operator malfunction if anything. Folks wanting to be catered to instead of learning about different builds and tactics. Like I said last week [get yourself some Cele, find a nice little boon ball and start picking folks off, then watch the forums light the following week]. I hate being right about things like this. 😔 I have played almost exclusively cele builds since the buffs years ago and i'm winning almost every even fight and a good amount of outnumbered fights, so i'd say i'm not too bad at abusing those broken stats. So is it me "malfunctioning" or those that still struggle, despite playing cele? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widebody.5071 Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 8 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said: I have played almost exclusively cele builds since the buffs years ago and i'm winning almost every even fight and a good amount of outnumbered fights, so i'd say i'm not too bad at abusing those broken stats. So is it me "malfunctioning" or those that still struggle, despite playing cele? Soo... What's the problem then. I just started playing Cele a year and a half ago. I don't win most even, hardly ever a outnumbered fight. I had better turnouts prior to the HOT nerfs while sporting knight's gear. Now with Cele I don't win allot but the berserker abusers don't run over me like they used to. Just never seem able to cope with the condi vomiters. Condi's need to be nerfed that's all there is to it. No class should be able to cough up conditions like they're taking a wizz after an all night kegger. It's just ridiculous, one sided and not fun. Is it me or is there something really wrong when the entire floor of SMC can be covered in in red circles for like 5 seconds. Find an answer to the boon ball they come up with some more crazy stuff. Enough already. Sound crazy huh? 😕 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyreva.1078 Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 4 hours ago, Widebody.5071 said: Soo... What's the problem then. Blatant imbalance. 4 hours ago, Widebody.5071 said: Soo... What's the problem then. I just started playing Cele a year and a half ago. I don't win most even, hardly ever a outnumbered fight. I had better turnouts prior to the HOT nerfs while sporting knight's gear. Now with Cele I don't win allot but the berserker abusers don't run over me like they used to. Just never seem able to cope with the condi vomiters. Ah yes, but that couldn't possibly be a matter of an "operator malfunction"? Only applies to others, right? Anyway, thanks for the perfect example of why it is impossible to take anyone who is defending cele serious. 1 2 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CafPow.1542 Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 2 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said: Anyway, thanks for the perfect example of why it is impossible to take anyone who is defending cele serious. This will be very helpful for the discussion I’m sure. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 59 minutes ago, CafPow.1542 said: This will be very helpful for the discussion I’m sure. As helpful as someone saying cele requires more skill to play than zerker. 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CafPow.1542 Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 16 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said: As helpful as someone saying cele requires more skill to play than zerker. Yeah who would do that unironically? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
senftube.6081 Posted January 17 Author Share Posted January 17 (edited) 10 hours ago, Widebody.5071 said: Soo... What's the problem then. I just started playing Cele a year and a half ago. I don't win most even, hardly ever a outnumbered fight. I had better turnouts prior to the HOT nerfs while sporting knight's gear. Now with Cele I don't win allot but the berserker abusers don't run over me like they used to. Just never seem able to cope with the condi vomiters. Condi's need to be nerfed that's all there is to it. No class should be able to cough up conditions like they're taking a wizz after an all night kegger. It's just ridiculous, one sided and not fun. Is it me or is there something really wrong when the entire floor of SMC can be covered in in red circles for like 5 seconds. Find an answer to the boon ball they come up with some more crazy stuff. Enough already. Sound crazy huh? 😕 Now then you aren't simply a good player. A good player on CELE deals good dmg and it is nearly impossible to kill that guy because of perma boons, higher HP., higher toughness, higher everything. Edited January 17 by senftube.6081 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsnotmattylol.8457 Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 (edited) 2 hours ago, senftube.6081 said: A good player on CELE Key word. Not everyone is trying to "get good". If it bothers YOU, that's not a Cele users problem. Basing changes to the game around 1% of the playerbase skill and eliminating the rest from being able to play becaussssseeeeee....... - PS I play dragon/zerk/Mara primarily. Just like all the rest of us that don't give a kitten what people play. Edited January 17 by Itachi.3610 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 1 hour ago, Itachi.3610 said: Key word. Not everyone is trying to "get good". If it bothers YOU, that's not a Cele users problem. Basing changes to the game around 1% of the playerbase skill and eliminating the rest from being able to play becaussssseeeeee....... - PS I play dragon/zerk/Mara primarily. Just like all the rest of us that don't give a kitten what people play. That's the thing about mmo. If something becomes dominating it gets nerfed. Cele has been so oppressive that most of the professions use it. But that is on MMOs with competent balance teams, so cele users can calm down. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsnotmattylol.8457 Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 2 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said: That's the thing about mmo. If something becomes dominating it gets nerfed. Cele has been so oppressive that most of the professions use it. But that is on MMOs with competent balance teams, so cele users can calm down. Cele isn't a problem for me as a power enjoyer, zergplay, solo, havoc. I also don't see that many cele users. Anecdotal but has been my experience this far after a decade. If I run into a counter cele roamer, I just grab a friend in the massive war mode. Wish I'd find all these people dominating non stop with cele. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burial.1958 Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 2 hours ago, Itachi.3610 said: Key word. Not everyone is trying to "get good". If it bothers YOU, that's not a Cele users problem. Basing changes to the game around 1% of the playerbase skill and eliminating the rest from being able to play becaussssseeeeee....... - PS I play dragon/zerk/Mara primarily. Just like all the rest of us that don't give a kitten what people play. That is such a dumb Argument. Those 1% would kill you still, because those 1% can also use cele. But it destroys it for everyone who do not play cele in roaming. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyreva.1078 Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 (edited) 2 hours ago, Itachi.3610 said: eliminating the rest from being able to play becaussssseeeeee....... Ah yes, because bad players (like 99% of the WvW player base) were totally unable to play before cele buffs ... Also if you don't care about balance, because you can just bring more friends, why are you posting in a topic about balance? Edited January 17 by Zyreva.1078 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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