Now we have whole roaming Guilds using all CELE

[itsnotmattylol.8457]

5 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Ah yes, because bad players (like 99% of the WvW player base) were totally unable to play before cele buffs ...

Also if you don't care about balance, because you can just bring more friends, why are you posting in a topic about balance?

Because when they "balance" it for you, the complaining will just shift to the new thing that dominates rather than seeking the root cause of the problem. The builds/traits  that enable a gear set to become so oppressive. IE Hammer Cele Ele, I agree it's absolutely busted and can suggest things to change rather than just "Delete cele from wvw" that would enable people to still play some less oppressive cele ele builds that are totally manageable by players that actually want to interact and not just play forum wars about whatever new thing beat them up roaming in the mass pvp mode. 

[Zyreva.1078]

5 minutes ago, Itachi.3610 said:

Because when they "balance" it for you, the complaining will just shift to the new thing that dominates rather than seeking the root cause of the problem.

Cele became op the second it got those massive buffs. Had absolutely nothing to do with weapon or trait changes. Cele is the root of the problem (doesn't mean it is the only problem mind you, but it would be the easiest one to fix, so it would make sense to adress it first, then go from there).

Also i have actually never before complained about any gear stats, because there was never a reason to do so before cele buffs and if those would get reverted, i would again have no reason to complain about stats. So again, just a bunch of wrong assumtions.

Edited January 17 by Zyreva.1078

[itsnotmattylol.8457]

7 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Cele is the root of the problem (doesn't mean it is the only problem mind you, but it would be the easiest one to fix, so it would make sense to adress it first, then go from there).

So wipe out non oppressive build variety while acknowledging there's other problems, it isn't the root cause, no matter how many times you say it is. The games crept in all aspects (condi,  mobility, power burst) , condi being the dominate factor (slot cleanse). WvW balance should be based around large scale war, so balancing it for small scale doesn't make sense. This is a repeated disconnect for a lot of complaints here.  Roaming has never been balanced, and never will be. If you don't enjoy it, do something else. Or keep complaining I guess.

[Zyreva.1078]

30 minutes ago, Itachi.3610 said:

So wipe out non oppressive build variety

That's a contradiction in itself. If non oppressive (=bad) builds are fine right now, nerfs wouldn't actually matter. Bad simply remains bad. If some of those bad builds become worse (while many other's become actually viable with overall variety increasing), why care? You can still bring friends, right?

30 minutes ago, Itachi.3610 said:

it isn't the root cause, no matter how many times you say it is.

It isn't not the root cause, no matter how many times you say it.

At least i have explained, why it has to be the (a) root cause, instead of throwing out claims with nothing to back those up.

30 minutes ago, Itachi.3610 said:

WvW balance should be based around large scale war, so balancing it for small scale doesn't make sense.

The core WvW design entails just as much small scale combat as it does large scale combat. And since the meta is quite different and therefore changes to one don't have to (negatively) affect the other, there is little reason to not consider both when trying to balance the game (also when considering how rigid and limited the large scale meta is and always has been, only looking at that would make the game balance look way worse).

Edited January 17 by Zyreva.1078

[itsnotmattylol.8457]

19 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

That's a contradiction in itself. If non oppressive (=bad) builds are fine right now, nerfs wouldn't actually matter. Bad simply remains bad. If some of those bad builds become worse (while many other's become actually viable with overall variety increasing), why care? You can still bring friends, right?

It's not just, this is good and this is bad when it comes to builds. The game isn't that simple.
 

 

20 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

At least i have explained, why it has to be the (a) root cause, instead of throwing out claims with nothing to back those up.

47 minutes ago, Itachi.3610 said:

I just see nerf cele stats with no consideration for anything else
I named a build that needs to be tuned. It's already been looked at in pve, I'm sure wvw is next.

 

20 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

The core WvW design entails just as much small scale combat as it does large scale combat. And since the meta is quite different and therefore changes to one don't have to (negatively) affect the other, there is little reason to not consider both when trying to balance the game (also when considering how rigid and limited the large scale meta is and always has been, only looking at that would make the game balance look way worse).

Worse for who?
The large scale players in the large scale mode? Or the struggling glass roamer?
Cele isn't a problem. Unwillingness to play rock paper scissors is.

[Zyreva.1078]

2 hours ago, Itachi.3610 said:

It's not just, this is good and this is bad when it comes to builds. The game isn't that simple.

If i replace good and bad with "completely unplayable", "not the worst, not good either", "niche but situationally decent", "pretty good, but there's better" , "litte bit oppressive" and "completely and utterly broken op" it doesn't change my point at all.

2 hours ago, Itachi.3610 said:

I just see nerf cele stats with no consideration for anything else

What didn't i consider? The fact that there are almost 50 different attribute combinations that can be mixed and matched freely for nearly infinite options, yet creating strong (small scale) builds is all about cele, cele and cele?

The fact that a single very specific change to cele gear changed it from more or less balanced to completely dominating the roaming meta?

The fact that almost every cele defender feels the need to bring up cele as counter to oneshot/glass cannon builds, when in reality there are plenty of other stats (including old cele) that are just as good if not even better at preventing a oneshot death?

The fact, that even when completely removing multiple stats from cele gear it would remain competitive with other stats, eg. when two players with the exact same build except gear (1 full cele, the other full zerk) hit each other with the exact same power only dmg skills at the same time - cele wins. That's without factoring in any healing, condis and boons, which all put cele far ahead. Don't believe me? Do the math yourself or try to find the topic where i did exactly that (too lazy to look it up myself). It's almost like it was balanced with less stats in mind, i wonder why that might be?

To be fair, i didn't bring the last point up in this thread until now, but i have done so in different threads and guess what the response was? Nothing. No counter arguments, no response, it just got ignored as if the numbers weren't real (which everyone can easily recalculate) and instead people kept babbeling "stop playing oneshot builds, l2p, bring friends".

2 hours ago, Itachi.3610 said:

I named a build that needs to be tuned. It's already been looked at in pve, I'm sure wvw is next.

So you said cele hammer cata should be nerfed, right? But what about all the "non oppressive" hammer cata builds? Why it it ok to nerf those, but not cele?

Fact is, it is possible to create bad (or non oppressive or whatever you want to call them) builds arround literally anything. Which also means that every single nerf will affect some builds that don't neccessarily need any nerfing. So should nothing ever be nerfed? Well, no ofc not and you said so yourself.

2 hours ago, Itachi.3610 said:

Worse for who?

That's not how balance works. Balance (or lack thereof, as well as all the nuances in between) is completely unrelated to who benefits and who doesn't. 1=1 is balanced. 1<2 is not. 1<3 even less. Doesn't matter who benefts from which situation. Now game balance isn't quite as simple, but the underlying principle still applies. And since reducing WvW to zerging only would also mean the amount of viable/good/whatever builds would go down drastically and entire classes would basically be garbage tier for most if not all of the game's existence - which is typically seen as sign of bad balance - then yes, balance would have to be considered worse. Period.

2 hours ago, Itachi.3610 said:

Cele isn't a problem. Unwillingness to play rock paper scissors is.

Why should i play "rock, paper, scissors" when i can just bring a nuke that beats all three?

And before you tell me, that cele isn't like that, tell me the one single reliable counter to cele builds. You know, like paper to rock. And don't say "friends", because if you'd need 2 papers to beat 1 rock, that would mean the opposite of rock being balanced.

Edited January 17 by Zyreva.1078

[itsnotmattylol.8457]

5 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

And don't say "friends"

Any build you can actually play well. So skill. 

13 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

reliable counter to cele builds

You want one build that answers ALL cele builds, lol proving my point.

There's no prof that answers every prof. 

14 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

The fact that almost every cele defender brings up cele as counter to oneshot/glass cannon builds, when in reality there are plenty of other stats (including old cele) that are just as good if not even better at preventing a oneshot death.

 

TBH from my own personal experience, I run into far more of those stats than cele. So delete cele and then delete TB, then what grieving? Again, seems like a I can't one shot so nerf please comment. Plenty of players make light work of celestial users, why can't you?

 

5 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Well, no ofc not and you said so yourself.

Traits, not gear. It's more specific to what is being utilized in the gear. Rather than the gear itself, you can change traits in 3-4 problematic builds far easier than just deleting a bunch of builds that aren't problematic because you're not one shotting them.

 

6 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

The fact, that even when completely removing multiple stats from cele gear it would remain competitive with other stats, eg. when two players with the exact same build except gear (1 full cele, the other full zerk) hit each other with the exact same power only dmg skills at the same time - cele wins. That's without factoring in any healing, condis and boons, which all put cele far ahead. Don't believe me? Do the math yourself or try to find the topic where i did exactly that (too lazy to look it up myself). It's almost like it was balanced with less stats in mind, i wonder why that might be?

2 hours ago, Itachi.3610 said:

Also they don't have the same power, if you know how to ramp your build correctly you come out on top with a power build. 

Just say a cele user whooped your kitten and move on. 

Idk how many good players showcase this on a daily basis on livestreams and youtube. They can only tell you so many times before it's like beating their heads against the wall.

8 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

If i replace good and bad with "completely unplayable", "not the worst, not good either", "niche but situationally decent", "pretty good, but there's better" , "litte bit oppressive" and "completely and utterly broken op" it doesn't change my point at all.

There's tiers of quality, if you choose to play F tier and complain about something that isn't problematic, this is not a balance issue. It's a l2p issue.

 

I used to think cele was a problem until I learned all the profs/specs and the majority of the builds that have been theory crafted by very good players. Ones that don't give a kitten about cele in general.

 

Gonna end that here since I'm repeating myself, like all the content creators have been for years. Good luck roaming, I'm gonna go destroy some cele users in power now. 

[Zyreva.1078]

53 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

and guess what the response was? Nothing. No counter arguments, no response, it just got ignored as if the numbers weren't real (which everyone can easily recalculate) and instead people kept babbeling "stop playing oneshot builds, l2p, bring friends".

...

34 minutes ago, Itachi.3610 said:

So skill. 

Again, seems like a I can't one shot so nerf please comment.

because you're not one shotting them.

if you know how to

Just say a cele user whooped your kitten and move on.

It's a l2p issue.

Well, thanks for the confirm i guess ...

34 minutes ago, Itachi.3610 said:

I'm repeating myself

What a surprise, finally something i can agree with.

Edited January 17 by Zyreva.1078

[Widebody.5071]

Ahh crap had another flashback... The term "bad players" taking advantage of their armor, sustain, stab, adrenalin... Was used to gut warriors pre hot.

They then had the nerve to boast in the forums about said bad players not playing wvw any longer.

Here we go again.

[CafPow.1542]

9 hours ago, Itachi.3610 said:

because you're not one shotting them.

That is the main thing seriously i think.

general question: is there a reliable site that can give numbers on how many people use what stat contribution? I think no but….

cause i feel like glascannons are as common as celestials but i wouldn’t bet on it. But I’m no Gambler anyways.

[bq pd.2148]

4 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

general question: is there a reliable site that can give numbers on how many people use what stat contribution? I think no but….

cause i feel like glascannons are as common as celestials but i wouldn’t bet on it. But I’m no Gambler anyways.

to access such information a site would need the API keys with sufficient permissions, for example gw2efficiency can see which equipment template is currently selected on all of your characters and what stats they have. i am also fairly certain the API can read on which map you are currently online.
however this would only give the info about stat usage in WvW by people who provide the key to a site that would like to track this, it would not specify whether the stats are used in solo roaming, small groups, moderately sized guilds or big blobs, might even be used for standing afk in spawn and running into a wall.

glass players have always been common, cannon were only a smaller subset of them, the others are still glass, even with cele.

Edited January 18 by bq pd.2148

[TheGrimm.5624]

4 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

general question: is there a reliable site that can give numbers on how many people use what stat contribution? I think no but….

No.

4 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

cause i feel like glascannons are as common as celestials but i wouldn’t bet on it. But I’m no Gambler anyways.

Anet does have access to the numbers and they buffed Cele prior to other changes. How one gauges that is one by one. So mileage various here.