Now we have whole roaming Guilds using all CELE

[Justine.6351]

1 hour ago, CafPow.1542 said:

And i just con from a 5v2 against to glascannonguardians. They just deleted so many hp in such a short time, it was possibpe for them.

nerf zerker now huh?

Dodge...

[CafPow.1542]

29 minutes ago, Justine.6351 said:

Dodge...

Oh what a gamebreaking mechanic i wasn’t aware of.

and how does cele-gear prevent the enemy dodging?

[Hotride.2187]

Just stop roaming, its the easiest solution to cele. Let the cele roamers fight each other, they'll die of boredom if nothing else.

Edited January 9 by Hotride.2187

[Justine.6351]

53 minutes ago, CafPow.1542 said:

Oh what a gamebreaking mechanic i wasn’t aware of.

and how does cele-gear prevent the enemy dodging?

I'm sure that makes sense somehow.

[CafPow.1542]

1 hour ago, Justine.6351 said:

I'm sure that makes sense somehow.

If you start to understand the first post of me you quoted you hopefully see that i was referring to „muh 5v2 lost“

and that you can lose a 5v2 against a cele or a glascannon. So only because one dude loses a 5v2 this is not an argument for „cele to strong“.

having a dodgeroll (you brought it up) has nothing to do with that.

[Justine.6351]

6 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

If you start to understand the first post of me you quoted you hopefully see that i was referring to „muh 5v2 lost“

and that you can lose a 5v2 against a cele or a glascannon. So only because one dude loses a 5v2 this is not an argument for „cele to strong“.

having a dodgeroll (you brought it up) has nothing to do with that.

We didn't lose, we had to beat on them for minutes to kill them.

[CafPow.1542]

6 hours ago, Justine.6351 said:

We didn't lose, we had to beat on them for minutes to kill them.

Even better.

i think when you fight them and they can’t kill you but it’s hard to kill them … this is fair.

as it is when you engage a glasscannon. You oneshot him or he deletes you in a second.

that‘s exactly the point of those builds, for me a figt that goes on for a minute or 2 is way more fun than being globaled into dowend state in a blink of an eye.

but I’d never consider coming here and crying for nerfs.

[Justine.6351]

44 minutes ago, CafPow.1542 said:

Even better.

i think when you fight them and they can’t kill you but it’s hard to kill them … this is fair.

as it is when you engage a glasscannon. You oneshot him or he deletes you in a second.

that‘s exactly the point of those builds, for me a figt that goes on for a minute or 2 is way more fun than being globaled into dowend state in a blink of an eye.

but I’d never consider coming here and crying for nerfs.

Artificially increasing combat length doesn't make it good. 5 players beating on 2 for a couple minutes in open field is moronic. I didn't come here crying for nerfs either.

[CafPow.1542]

1 hour ago, Justine.6351 said:

Artificially increasing combat length doesn't make it good. 5 players beating on 2 for a couple minutes in open field is moronic. I didn't come here crying for nerfs either.

And i think 2 players deleting 5 in a second is even more idiotic than the other way around. So i was (ironically) saying to nerf zerker then. Which ofc isn’t needed i think, cause wearing pure glasscannon comes with a tradeoff.

but wearing full cele does as well, and people that complain about it, ignore that completely.

they fail to counter a certain type of build but instead of thinking about what they can do to do better, they come whining to daddy anet for nerfs like toddlers and i won’t support that.

[Justine.6351]

1 hour ago, CafPow.1542 said:

And i think 2 players deleting 5 in a second is even more idiotic than the other way around. So i was (ironically) saying to nerf zerker then. Which ofc isn’t needed i think, cause wearing pure glasscannon comes with a tradeoff.

but wearing full cele does as well, and people that complain about it, ignore that completely.

they fail to counter a certain type of build but instead of thinking about what they can do to do better, they come whining to daddy anet for nerfs like toddlers and i won’t support that.

And then anet nerfs power instead...

[TheGrimm.5624]

49 minutes ago, Justine.6351 said:

And then anet nerfs power instead...

Anet nerfed everyone as too many players failed their opening bursts and then died on the follow up attacks and then we had the nerf everyone posts till the point that they nuked everything. Where as the player running some armor said this is a bad idea it will just increase complaints on armor driven players being seen as an issue where they weren't being one shot prior and will then become the nerf this target. And here we are. 

Edited January 10 by TheGrimm.5624

[Exzen.2976]

The problem is that cele is overtuned in its current form. It doesn't need to be deleted, but it does need some tweaking to bring it more in line. At the moment it makes the majority of stat combos completely obsolete.

If you want to run a condi build, cele is just outright better than running dire/trailblazer/apothecary/plaguedoctor etc. If you run power and want to add some tankiness, cele is better than mixing in some soldiers/wanderers/commanders/crusaders etc. 

Cele used to be fine before the unnecessary buff. Reverse it and give players a choice to make again when build crafting. It's really not difficult anet.

[TheGrimm.5624]

4 minutes ago, Exzen.2976 said:

The problem is that cele is overtuned in its current form. It doesn't need to be deleted, but it does need some tweaking to bring it more in line. At the moment it makes the majority of stat combos completely obsolete.

If you want to run a condi build, cele is just outright better than running dire/trailblazer/apothecary/plaguedoctor etc. If you run power and want to add some tankiness, cele is better than mixing in some soldiers/wanderers/commanders/crusaders etc. 

Cele used to be fine before the unnecessary buff. Reverse it and give players a choice to make again when build crafting. It's really not difficult anet.

In what context are these points made?

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

2 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

Which ofc isn’t needed i think, cause wearing pure glasscannon comes with a tradeoff.

but wearing full cele does as well, and people that complain about it, ignore that completely.

they fail to counter a certain type of build but instead of thinking about what they can do to do better, they come whining to daddy anet for nerfs like toddlers and i won’t support that.

What's the cele tradeoff?

It's not the build, it's the armor quantity of stats which amounts for ~50% more than any other gear stats and it's so obnoxious that it became bis to most professions, which in turn became monkey brain skill level.

 

 

[CafPow.1542]

1 hour ago, Justine.6351 said:

And then anet nerfs power instead...

Yeah and that’s not really smart i think.

 

40 minutes ago, Exzen.2976 said:

The problem is that cele is overtuned in its current form. It doesn't need to be deleted, but it does need some tweaking to bring it more in line. At the moment it makes the majority of stat combos completely obsolete.

I think besides concentration, cele is mostly fine. But boonduration could be looked at. Although the amount of boons is generally a questionable issue in the game, you can see this in the boonball argument.

this brings up the question if it’s really cele who posts a problem or the boon-mechanic in generall across all statcombos.

 

8 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

What's the cele tradeoff?

You don’t do as much damage as a pure glass cannon but you do some.

you don’t heal as much like a dedicated healer does but you do some.

and you are not as tanky as a pure tank is, but you are decently tanky.

that‘s it.

this is not a question if you just look at the numbers honestly and i fail to see why this is such a hard concept for some people to realize.

Edited January 10 by CafPow.1542

[Exzen.2976]

1 hour ago, CafPow.1542 said:

I think besides concentration, cele is mostly fine. But boonduration could be looked at. Although the amount of boons is generally a questionable issue in the game, you can see this in the boonball argument.

I don't disagree - but I think the concentration is a big issue and you even say "mostly" xD Without the boon spam and crazy might generation etc, Cele is much much weaker. I do agree boon duration and access across all classes should indeed be looked at - but one is a much easier fix than the other. Remove concentration from cele = one change. 

[CafPow.1542]

4 minutes ago, Exzen.2976 said:

I don't disagree - but I think the concentration is a big issue and you even say "mostly" xD Without the boon spam and crazy might generation etc, Cele is much much weaker. I do agree boon duration and access across all classes should indeed be looked at - but one is a much easier fix than the other. Remove concentration from cele = one change. 

Yeah that maybe would be a good thing. I’d do a different approach, like… reduce the effectiveness/ scaling from concentration-stat by… let’s say 50%? (Just throwing a number here) cause i see a lot of complains of minstrel for example as well.

 

why do i think that not cele, but boon duration is key? Most meta builds i find, don’t use cele for zergs, but the boonballmeta is a zerg issue. So, it’s not about cele, it’s about concentration. But maybe my analysis lacks something.

 

having boon duration on cele in general is okay i think. But not as much. But that’s just my guess. ^^

[Exzen.2976]

Cele is beyond disgusting when it comes to small scale and 1v1s though. So concentration clearly is an issue on it. Not everyone plays big organised fights. I do appreciate its effectiveness decreases as you increase the number of players but making the change would therefore have a big positive inpact on small scale and roaming and little to no impact on zerg gameplay. So seems to be a sensible change to make.

You don't need to have all bases covered in an organised group because you can build into a specific role, so cele is less desireable - but for small scale it's essentially a no brainer BIS stat combo that does everything for you. 

[bq pd.2148]

52 minutes ago, CafPow.1542 said:

why do i think that not cele, but boon duration is key? Most meta builds i find, don’t use cele for zergs, but the boonballmeta is a zerg issue. So, it’s not about cele, it’s about concentration. But maybe my analysis lacks something.

in zergs people play more specialized roles and when you have a full squad, even if you go 4 supports 1 dps per group you can have 10 zerker/holos hitting roughly the same area, anything there should die. because they are build 100% for damage, no tradeoff for sustain allowed.
the supporters usually just need to pump some boon (concentration), heals/barrier (healing power) and cleanse/strip/cc (no stat, expertise would help soft CC but not with the expected cleanses) so they might as well all run minstrel which has more healing power than cele. in smaller groups 5-15 maybe 20 you can run some of those supports on cele to help with the damage as you will have less DPS players and are more likely to fight larger groups, but the larger your group the less need do you have for that bit of extra pressure and might as well go full autopilot.
 

52 minutes ago, CafPow.1542 said:

Yeah that maybe would be a good thing. I’d do a different approach, like… reduce the effectiveness/ scaling from concentration-stat by… let’s say 50%? (Just throwing a number here) cause i see a lot of complains of minstrel for example as well.

for WvW splits quite a few skills already provide less/shorter boons, what that mainly does: increase average group size and run more supports. because as said above, you dont need that many DPS if they hit roughly same area at the same time while you are essentially a walking fortress. you have time to take down the opponents bit by bit. 

having concentration + expertise on cele doesnt put cele in its current position, but the total amount of all the stats. take a chest armor it has 343 total attributes on 3stat, 376 on 4 stat but 603 on cele. so the argument is usually either remove the 2 again or reduce the amount per stat to be a bit more in line with the rest.

Edited January 10 by bq pd.2148

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

3 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

 

You don’t do as much damage as a pure glass cannon but you do some.

you don’t heal as much like a dedicated healer does but you do some.

and you are not as tanky as a pure tank is, but you are decently tanky.

that‘s it.

this is not a question if you just look at the numbers honestly and i fail to see why this is such a hard concept for some people to realize.

It's that even a tradeoff?

Let's take marauder for a example and compare with cele.

You don't deal as much power damage, in trade you deal way more condi damage, you've way more tankiness, you can heal heaps more, you can stack boons easily and have longer boon duration.

A tradeoff is I take x off and I gain y in return.

Edited January 10 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[CafPow.1542]

1 hour ago, bq pd.2148 said:

having concentration + expertise on cele doesnt put cele in its current position, but the total amount of all the stats. take a chest armor it has 343 total attributes on 3stat, 376 on 4 stat but 603 on cele. so the argument is usually either remove the 2 again or reduce the amount per stat to be a bit more in line with the rest.

Generally reasonable what you said and especially this is correct. So yeah, maybe completely removing concentration (at least) could solve the problem tho it wouldn’t affect the „zerg problem“ (aka boonball) but you elaborated it.

i think it’s okay to have some amount of concentration (and especially expertise) on cele. 
 

first: why nerf expertise? You could also nerf… ferocity?. I don’t know why the condis are the Problem. But okay.

second: concentration. I said already that this specifically might be to much on cele and maybe putting it away completely might make sense (one still can get some through runes)

but since cele is meant to give „everything“, maybe a thought could be to decrease all stats by a certain amount? I rarely see this being mentioned as an idea. So… why? Are all the other stats fine? Cause only deleting concentration would mean you still get more stats than on let’s say zerker?

 

i can’t see the problem being „to much stats“ but „that one stat being to much“ (especially concentration). Especially if „to much stats“ is the problem, deleting concentration alone wouldn’t be enough would it?
I’m just trying to wrap my head around this problem.

 

24 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

It's that even a tradeoff?

Imo it is.

you do everything but not as good. The thing after „but“ is the tradeoff.

as you can see in my post (this one), i agree that maybe the tradeoff is to small.

but I’d wager that, (most) people failing right now on dealing with cele would also fail when you nerf it a little.

 

realistically, cele ain‘t going nowhere. Especially for new players it’s a good stat to „cover everything“ and it’s potentially good to learn… at least, anet seems to thinks that. In pve this is a non issue i think.

so i don’t think they will just delete 1-2 stats from celestial, but rather decrease the total amount of stats (if they do even anything).

on the other hand, if all the other stats are decreased, it would kinda miss the point entirely cause you already feel that you hit waaaay weaker with cele than on a specialized glasscannon build. You ought to be able to kill stuff in a reasonable time still (in pve)… hmm… 🤔

Edited January 10 by CafPow.1542

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@CafPow.1542

Well, it's your opinion and it's fine, imo a tradeoff is you lose X you gain y. Not you lose X and gain y z a b in return.

Regarding the "little nerf" cele doesn't need a little one. Full cele has around 1950 more stats than full 4 stats. It has around 500 less stats than major or primary stats (which in terms of power and condi can make up due to the ease of 25 might stack) but on minor or secondary the difference is so small it's negligible.

The nerf it warrants is at least 30% and that's being generous.

[CafPow.1542]

22 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@CafPow.1542

Well, it's your opinion and it's fine, imo a tradeoff is you lose X you gain y. Not you lose X and gain y z a b in return.

Regarding the "little nerf" cele doesn't need a little one. Full cele has around 1950 more stats than full 4 stats. It has around 500 less stats than major or primary stats (which in terms of power and condi can make up due to the ease of 25 might stack) but on minor or secondary the difference is so small it's negligible.

The nerf it warrants is at least 30% and that's being generous.

Yeah it would be that. But that nerf would realistically make celestial pointless cause you wouldn’t get anything done whatsoever.

In this case, you might aswell just delete this statcombo. And i really doubt that this will happen. I might be wrong but if i where you, i wouldn’t hope for such a thing to happen.

 

if any, i predict that concentration will get nerfed on cele, and even that won’t be removed entirely but people who struggle against cele will still struggle against it after said nerf.

but who knows what the devs will do? I don’t xD

Edited January 10 by CafPow.1542

[Dawdler.8521]

People keep arguing so much fluff.

3 stat gear, as combat was intended.

Delete everything else.

[CafPow.1542]

31 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

People keep arguing so much fluff.

3 stat gear, as combat was intended.

Delete everything else.

Or:

give 4+ stats but only on legendary gear and watch the forums go boom. 😅