Drizzlewood confusion . . .

[Gop.8713]

There's another thread running atm about powercreep in the open world which used drizzlewood as an example. I love drizzlewood and played it relentlessly on release, probably my favorite map in the game. But I haven't been back in a while and when I saw the example in the other thread I got excited and asked the OP a question about their recent experience. That generated some replies and rather than derail that thread I figured we'd be better off correcting misconceptions about the map here . . .

Specifically there is some confusion about the beginning of the north meta, after securing Dominion's Breach when the other four tribune zones become active. The map is designed so that these four zones become available simultaneously, with the idea being that players will spread out and clear these four areas before coming back together for the final push up to the Frost Citadel. Unfortunately, maps will frequently have a tag up taxiing ppls in for the north meta, and players will often just follow the tag around instead of spreading out. And this is fine if that's what ppls want to do for w/e reason, I'm not trying to insist that everyone play the map as designed. Play your way, after all ; )

What became apparent in the other thread is that the reason some ppls are doing this is that they believe spreading out reduces the number of Memories of Otter or Gifts from Otter that they will receive, and this is simply not the case. Those items drop exclusively from the Tribune ground chests and the final reward chest at the end of the entire meta. The Tribune ground chests do not require participation. It is not necessary for a player to contribute to killing the tribune or to any of the pre-events in that tribune's zone to be eligible to loot that chest and receive their memories or gifts. The chests have a five minute despawn timer to give players in other zones an opportunity to airdrop in and loot the tribune chests in all of the zones before they regroup at Iron Lookout for their final push north . . .

I was surprised to learn that there was still this confusion about older content, but there are always new players coming along and I suppose sometimes mistakes like these can spread as the new players follow the vets around doing things their way and then becoming the vets themselves. Hopefully this might encourage some ppls to revisit the map and run it again, experiencing it as designed for possibly the first time : )

[Omega.6801]

1) Don't you also get some Otter-thingies from the actual champions?
2) The five minutes despawn times may be a bit tight for all player to loot all chests so I'd say the way the map is played now is just the "fool proof" way to do things so no one is left behind/gets frustrated.
(It's been a while for me so I might as well be wrong here)
For maps like this I think there is always like a public version of doing things and a minmaxed version. The public version is the trusty, tried version that will succeed no matter what. It might not be the fastest or the most optimal way but it's safe and it will work. The minmaxed version will be faster, more profitable in terms of gold per time but it will be reliable on organisation, people will need to follow orders/calls and it is more reliant on population. Maybe what you are describing is one of those cases where, whith a well coordinated squad of people who know what they are doing and actually follow the comm, can improve on the meta's g/h.

[Gop.8713]

1) Happily, no \o/

2) It's a lot longer than you give it credit for. I don't even use the airdrops and I have plenty of time to run around and pick them up just with mounts. It's not a tight window . . .

It's not really about being faster. It's about variety and breaking things up into different experiences. The tribunes scale all the way down to where a handful of players can handle them no problem and the pre-events are mostly soloable. And I'm talking about with just regular open world builds, not min/maxed raid stuff ; p

The idea is just that it's more fun to have these smaller scale encounters before the big meta squad push through the north. But as mentioned I'm not trying to persuade anyone to do it the 'right' way, I'm just pointing out how the map is designed bc I think it's a brilliant map and there was some confusion about it . . .

[Randulf.7614]

It's not confusion. People prefer to go as a group than split up. It's been that way since North was released - players follow a tag unless the mechanics specifically deem it necessary to split up. And splitting up isn't beneficial or necessary - it certainly doen't add much extra time if any. It's just easier to work together as a single group

[Farohna.6247]

I don't think I've ever seen a group split up on the north meta.   The events pop up in a way that it naturally flows from one tribune to the next and most don't want to miss out on loot (or waste the time hopping around to go to chests...maybe the afk'ers).  Sometimes you get a few individuals that go and do the events before the tribune to push it along, but that's about it.  Splitting wouldn't really help.  

Edited January 31 by Farohna.6247

[Gop.8713]

38 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

It's not confusion. People prefer to go as a group than split up. It's been that way since North was released - players follow a tag unless the mechanics specifically deem it necessary to split up. And splitting up isn't beneficial or necessary - it certainly doen't add much extra time if any. It's just easier to work together as a single group

That's incorrect. Ppls in the other thread were definitely confused, specifically as to whether splitting up would cause you to lose out on memories or gifts, and also as to the despawn timer on the tribune chests . . .

And, again, if ppls want to follow a tag around sequentially then great. I'm just interested in ppls being informed about how the map is designed, which some weren't . . .

You're the second person (out of three) to bring up speed, which isn't really the point at all, but again in the interest of accurate information it's just silly to say doing four things one after another takes the same amount of time as doing them all at once. Otoh, if you tried introducing a little variety into your approach as the map's design encourages, you might discover you'd prefer it lasted a little longer : )

[Randulf.7614]

But I don't really see why a correction of information is required. There isn't a specific design route for the meta. It's neither designed to be split up or be done individually - it open ups at the same time allow players to decide for themselves where they go - east, west, split up etc. It's not designed specifically to split up. It's designed to be a free choice.

And ultimately, there is no difference no matter which way you go, except the more drops from events/mob loot is slightly better if you stick together. Otherwise, it's all completely irrelevant.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

I like how this post is basically the meme where a single person is standing before 1000 people and saying "YOU ARE ALL WRONG!" 

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/yes-you-all-are-wrong

Edited February 1 by DanAlcedo.3281

[Gop.8713]

10 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

But I don't really see why a correction of information is required. There isn't a specific design route for the meta. It's neither designed to be split up or be done individually - it open ups at the same time allow players to decide for themselves where they go - east, west, split up etc. It's not designed specifically to split up. It's designed to be a free choice.

And ultimately, there is no difference no matter which way you go, except the more drops from events/mob loot is slightly better if you stick together. Otherwise, it's all completely irrelevant.

I guess I just don't see the advantage in leaving the misinformation uncorrected? The map is designed to be done simultaneously, but allows for sequential play. If ppls think running the map as designed deprives them of the maps rewards, why leave them to bask in their ignorance . . ?

1 hour ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

I like how this post is basically the meme where a single person is standing before 1000 people and saying "YOU ARE ALL WRONG!" 

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/yes-you-all-are-wrong

Thanks : )

[Cyninja.2954]

This is easily cleared up:

The main assumption that players do not split up because they fear that they are not awarded Otter Blessings is simply put incorrect.

There, hope that helps.

[Gop.8713]

Not at all, as no assumption was made : )

[Farohna.6247]

The majority of players aren't concerned with min/max'ing.  If you wish to, that is fine, you do you...you comm how you choose.  You might make note of it in LFG that it is your intention  to min/max so players won't  be confused when suddenly you're all over the map, and save yourself  frustration that others are not playing the "right" way.   The meta moves along so rapidly at this point, it's really not an issue for most.  

Some players are still working on achievements, so they prefer to stay with a large group and commander.   Some just enjoy following a tag.  Never have seen anyone worried about Otter's blessings...most are just there for chests and loot.  

[Gop.8713]

While I appreciate your echoing my sentiments about encouraging ppls to play as they choose, let's try to keep the thread focused on how to correct some common misconceptions about the map that players have proven themselves confused about. I'm pleased that we were able to introduce you to some players who had some concerns about otters that you were not aware of, but now you've done a great job of reminding us of another subject that's a common source of confusion in this map regarding the way that the achievements are set up . . .

If it's been a while since you finished your drizzlewood cheeves, you may not remember that the achievements were not available to you at launch. You had to play the map to unlock the achievements, and they were unlocked randomly, not in any specific order or with any player input. This was another effort to encourage players to spread out during the tribune phase, giving them direction as to which sector to move to, namely the ones where they had cheeves unlocked. So if you were trying to work the mine defusing cheeve you'd head to bay, if you're trying to kill a yak you'd head to frostvein, etc. . . .

For most players this is no longer a concern, but as you correctly pointed out there will always (hopefully) be new players as well, and they are the ones who might be most likely to follow along with what others are doing in an established map. Once identified, you could advise these players as to the map's design and how it is often run differently, and how this may adversely impact their experience . . .

An obvious example is the yak escort that players will never receive if they follow the tag since it's outside the entire tribune area and runs simultaneously, but the most helpful would probably be freeing the prisoners. Since that event only happens in the east half of the map and all of the zones fire their pre-events simultaneously once the breach is secured, a tag following the common mid to west to east pattern will not reach the east half of the map until after the first round of pre-events have failed, at least for the ones like the prisoners that have a timer. If that first event was the prisoner rescue, the new player would be out of luck for that run in that zone. By encouraging players to break away from the tag and run to other zones as well the newer players have an increased likelihood of seeing the event they are looking for,  as well as getting successful tags in on all or most of the prisoners, which can be harder in a larger group . . .

Armed with this information, you can now be part of the solution as well \o/

This has actually turned out to be more productive than I expected. I was thinking we'd only see those issues with the otters mentioned in the other thread. Can anyone think of other common misconceptions about how the map is designed . . ?

[Lucy.3728]

22 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

It's not confusion. People prefer to go as a group than split up.

I had no idea that these zones could be completed simultaneously without anyone missing out. I actually thought the tribunes were so hard that they required a large number of players. I would prefer the zones to be completed simultaneously rather than one at a time. It's not my favourite map, it's fun, but it takes so much time.... anything that reduces that is welcome.

Like Tarir or other metas in HoT.
Image a com would do lane after lane after lane - bleh

[LSD.4673]

I honestly thought chests disappeared sequentially like they do at South, where as soon as the next spawns, the last despawns.

But it doesn't change the fact that people zerg as one. Always have, always will. While you're bashing away on portals with maybe one other guy, they'll have cleared the boss and moved somewhere else. It just isn't worth the hassle. Following tag, even to dumb deaths, is at the core of GW2.

[Randulf.7614]

12 hours ago, Gop.8713 said:

I guess I just don't see the advantage in leaving the misinformation uncorrected? The map is designed to be done simultaneously, but allows for sequential play. If ppls think running the map as designed deprives them of the maps rewards, why leave them to bask in their ignorance . . ?

Thanks : )

There's no common misconception to clear up since it isn't designed to be done simultaneously. It's designed to do however the group pleases. I think the discussion would be better facilitated by removing any allusion to their being confusion or misconceptions to how the map "should" be done since that is misleading. I'm not entirely sure what the objective is here. Whether it is done as a group or spread out, the goal is the same. It's just a bit more advantageous to stick together for the 5 mins of extra events and further gathering of Eagle/Ox/Wolverine essences from fighting more mobs. I think steering players to split up is perhaps more detrimental putting this context in mind. Plus doing every camp helps tick off more achievements once they are unlocked. 

[Gop.8713]

The point is that there is confusion about how this map is designed. Several ppls have acknowledged that information contained in this thread has been helpful to them. That's literally the whole point . . .

If you're asking me why several ppls have felt somehow threatened by this information in some way that was unexpected and I cannot answer. You'd have to ask yourselves, or each other. Perhaps you could start a new thread for it instead of derailing mine, as I was kind enough to do for the author of the thread where I saw this confusion first posted . . .

And though it has been ignored every time I have mentioned it so far I will point out once again that I am well aware that the playerbase at large has ignored the map's design and chosen to run this part of the map differently. And for now the fifth time in this thread, I will once again point out that if that's what ppls like doing, that's their business. The goal here is to clear up the abundance of confusion about how the map actually works. To inform, not to persuade . . .

In hopes that we can return to the issue at hand, here is what we've learned so far . . :

1) Spreading out during the trib phase does not impact Memories of Otter or Gifts From Otter rewarded as participation is not required to open those chests . . .

2) The trib chests have a five minute despawn timer . . .

3) The otter items do not drop from any mobs, only from the trib chests and the final chest at the completion of the meta . . .

4) New players following the tag will miss out on opportunities to advance specific cheeves, and would benefit from being made aware of how this part of the map is designed . . .

5) The four trib zones after breach spawn simultaneously, meaning not only are they available, but their pre-events begin running as soon as breach is capped . . .

I had forgotten that there was confusion on a couple of those, can anyone think of any other design elements that cause player confusion in this map . . ?

[Randulf.7614]

But we're back to adding confusion to address confusion again

20 minutes ago, Gop.8713 said:

And though it has been ignored every time I have mentioned it so far I will point out once again that I am well aware that the playerbase at large has ignored the map's design and chosen to run this part of the map differently. 

I'm going to challenge it because it is misleading. Yes, some useful info about the otters has been corrected, but that's it. The map design is not being ignored and it is not being done incorrectly. In fact the depsawn timer leans more towards the zerg method being the more correct way if such a one existed (it of course doesn't). And the way achievements work, zerging is more beneficial, so that's another reason to stick together. Plus the reasons I stated earlier about building up essences, extra mob enad event loot etc. 

If you were to say you "recommend it should be done as a split up because of xyz reasons" that is different and fair. But lets not assume there is a right way and a wrong way by design. I don't want anyone reading this thread to be misinformed by saying they are ignoring something when they aren't. So I'm countering it.

Sticking together is the way forward for rewards and mastery progression, but splitting up exists as an alternative option for time efficiency

 

[Farohna.6247]

 There is no confusion.  There is not misinterpreting how to do the meta.  It's great that you have an alternative way to do it.  It really doesn't do anything extra or solve any issues other than panicking some to run to get chests within five minutes.  It's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.  But thanks for putting the info out there, perhaps it's beneficial to someone.  

[frazazel.7501]

If there are achievements for doing certain pre-events, it's clear that they expected players to do those pre-events. So if some of those pre-events always fail based on the most popular zerg route, then that route doesn't appear to be the strategy that was originally envisioned by the designers.

Does it get the job done? Yes. Does it matter if players play the game the optimal way? Not at all. Is the intended design even the most optimal way to complete content? Not always. But I think we can piece together something about the design intent by looking at what exists, and that's both interesting, and it can be instructive. If you figure out how something was intended to be done, you can often find some benefits for doing it that way.

That said, I agree that splitting up is more difficult to manage, and for a pug group, it's too much to ask for random players who don't know the event to coordinate doing 4 different tasks at the same time. But a coordinated guild doing this content can probably shave a few minutes off of the map's overall completion time, while still picking up all of the chests. I think it's interesting to highlight this possibility, even if most players will never be in a group that will make use of it.

[Randulf.7614]

I certainly agree it's a strength that there is no correct path forward by design. I'm not a huge fan of North in general for various reasons, but it does highlight what GW2 does well at and that's allowing for for different ways to complete things. Much like Gyala Delves does. Now that's mostly a mess of a design for seperate reasons, but the mix of free form and linearity is one thing that section of meta does very well at.

[Gop.8713]

1 hour ago, Randulf.7614 said:

But we're back to adding confusion to address confusion again

I'm going to challenge it because it is misleading. Yes, some useful info about the otters has been corrected, but that's it. The map design is not being ignored and it is not being done incorrectly. In fact the depsawn timer leans more towards the zerg method being the more correct way if such a one existed (it of course doesn't). And the way achievements work, zerging is more beneficial, so that's another reason to stick together. Plus the reasons I stated earlier about building up essences, extra mob enad event loot etc. 

If you were to say you "recommend it should be done as a split up because of xyz reasons" that is different and fair. But lets not assume there is a right way and a wrong way by design. I don't want anyone reading this thread to be misinformed by saying they are ignoring something when they aren't. So I'm countering it.

Sticking together is the way forward for rewards and mastery progression, but splitting up exists as an alternative option for time efficiency

 

Wouldn't it be misleading to say I was recommending something that I am only describing with no recommendation one way or the other (for the sixth time now) . . ?

1 hour ago, Farohna.6247 said:

 There is no confusion.  There is not misinterpreting how to do the meta.  It's great that you have an alternative way to do it.  It really doesn't do anything extra or solve any issues other than panicking some to run to get chests within five minutes.  It's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.  But thanks for putting the info out there, perhaps it's beneficial to someone.  

You can literally read the thread and see ppls saying oh I didn't know that, I didn't understand that, I was confused by that, but confusion doesn't exist? But I'll bite, what is "my" alternative way to do it . . ?

 

1 hour ago, frazazel.7501 said:

If there are achievements for doing certain pre-events, it's clear that they expected players to do those pre-events. So if some of those pre-events always fail based on the most popular zerg route, then that route doesn't appear to be the strategy that was originally envisioned by the designers.

Does it get the job done? Yes. Does it matter if players play the game the optimal way? Not at all. Is the intended design even the most optimal way to complete content? Not always. But I think we can piece together something about the design intent by looking at what exists, and that's both interesting, and it can be instructive. If you figure out how something was intended to be done, you can often find some benefits for doing it that way.

That said, I agree that splitting up is more difficult to manage, and for a pug group, it's too much to ask for random players who don't know the event to coordinate doing 4 different tasks at the same time. But a coordinated guild doing this content can probably shave a few minutes off of the map's overall completion time, while still picking up all of the chests. I think it's interesting to highlight this possibility, even if most players will never be in a group that will make use of it.

Jfc ty lol. I was starting to think the problem was actually on my end. Appreciate your taking the time to actually read the thread you're posting in ; p

But still, I'll ask again, please, if you'd like to discuss whether running this part of the map as intended or via an alternate method is 'better' can we possibly do that in another thread rather than this one, which was about clarifying confusing points for some posters, though perhaps it has become clear that the cause of at least some of that confusion may actually be the alternate method itself ; p

[Farohna.6247]

10 minutes ago, Gop.8713 said:

Wouldn't it be misleading to say I was recommending something that I am only describing with no recommendation one way or the other (for the sixth time now) . . ?

You can literally read the thread and see ppls saying oh I didn't know that, I didn't understand that, I was confused by that, but confusion doesn't exist? But I'll bite, what is "my" alternative way to do it . . ?

 

Jfc ty lol. I was starting to think the problem was actually on my end. Appreciate your taking the time to actually read the thread you're posting in ; p

But still, I'll ask again, please, if you'd like to discuss whether running this part of the map as intended or via an alternate method is 'better' can we possibly do that in another thread rather than this one, which was about clarifying confusing points for some posters, though perhaps it has become clear that the cause of at least some of that confusion may actually be the alternate method itself ; p

One person commenting about not knowing it could be done simultaneously and one commenting about the duration of chests is hardly a "confusion" 🤣.  

You keep saying "as intended".  That's nice.  But the majority of people have successfully ran it since it came out as a squad, and unlikely to change that at this point on not new content.  Just because you invent a better mousetrap doesn't mean people aren't happy with the old one.  They aren't "'confused".  They don't really care about saving a very few minutes when it's a guaranteed win as they currently do it.  

[BatelGeuce.3591]

It's ran sequentially as a fair play policy. A lot of people knew it can be done simultaneously but all the groups would have to be of equal skill and "power" so that all the bosses die within the same time. If one of the groups struggled all the people there could lose all the other chests (it'd be nice if others helped them when they finish theirs but they'd rather go loot other chests first and that would cost a lot of time). But then again I am biased against these time-saving strats because then you have stuff like Death-branded Shatterer where people skip the rift stalkers which are pretty much the only good loot you get there just to burn the boss and have a chance at an infusion that 99.9% of them will never get anyway.

[Gop.8713]

Thank you again for actually reading the thread @frazazel.7501 , it would have been much more frustrating dealing with the rest of this without your reply : )