March 19th Balance Patch Preview

[Zacchary.6183]

Thief

Quickness deadeye was significantly overtuned when it was introduced but got brought down a bit too far from that point. This update includes a few tune-ups for the build's damage to hopefully bring it more in line with other options. We've also made usability improvements to some traits in the critical strikes and daredevil specializations along with some minor improvements to acrobatics.

• Double Tap: This skill now pierces. <--- A welcome change.
• Three Round Burst: This skill now pierces. <--- A welcome change.
• Tactical Strike: This skill now dazes for 1 second instead of blinding when striking from the front. Increased the power coefficient from 1.0 to 1.33. <--- A welcome change.
• Larcenous Strike: Increased the power coefficient from 1.3 to 1.4 in PvP and WvW.
• Shadow Portal: This skill no longer breaks stun.
• Keen Observer: Reduced the health threshold from 75% to 50% in PvE only. This trait now gives base critical chance that is increased above the health threshold. <--- Needed to happen.
• Twin Fangs: Reduced the health threshold from 90% to 50% in PvE only. This trait now gives base critical damage that is increased above the health threshold. <--- Needed to happen.
• Deadly Aim: This trait no longer reduces damage and now increases damage from pistol and harpoon gun attacks by 10%. <--- Needed to happen.
• Vigorous Recovery: This trait has been reworked and renamed to Pumping Up. Gain might when you dodge.
• Upper Hand: This trait now additionally restores initiative when you dodge. <--- Does this mean 1 ini when you dodge and an additional one when you evade an attack?

Daredevil

• Havoc Specialist: This trait now gives a flat damage bonus when your endurance is not full instead of scaling with remaining endurance. <--- Needed to happen.

Deadeye

• Stolen Skills: Increased the power coefficient from 0.5 to 1.25 in PvE only.
• Shadow Meld: Reduced the count recharge from 45 seconds to 25 seconds in PvE only.
• One in the Chamber: Increased the damage bonus from 10% to 25% in PvE only.
• Mercy: Increased the ammunition count from 1 to 2 in PvE only. <--- A welcome change.
• Collateral Damage: Increased the damage coefficient from 1.5 to 2.5 in PvE only.

 

Considering he plans to improve some pretty bad traits it does bring up the question: Does thief finally have some representation in the balance department? Like are they actually playtesting the thief?

Addition: Thief Axe Changes

• Axe skills that cost initiative will now correctly trigger lead attacks and assassins reward.
• Deadly Ambition: This trait will now function as expected with axe dual wield skills.
• Cunning Salvo and Malicious Cunning Salvo: Axes created by this skill will now properly gain bonuses while being recalled by dual wield skills. Axes created by this skill will no longer always inflict revealed when being recalled by dual wield skills. This skill is now a blast finisher. Reduced the bleeding stacks from 3 to 2 in PvE only.
• Malicious Cunning Salvo: Reduced the poison stacks from 3 to 1 in PvE only.
• Harrowing Storm: this skill will now recall axes to the targeted enemy instead of the user. Reduced the inflicted torment from 2 stacks for 6 seconds to 1 stack for 4 seconds in PvE only.
• Venomous Volley: Reduced the poison duration from 6 seconds to 3 seconds in PvE only.
• Spinning Axe: Reduced the bleeding duration from 6 seconds to 3 seconds in PvE only. Improved the missile targeting behavior for all axe skills.
• Increased missile velocity for all axe skills.

Edited February 18 by Zacchary.6183

[kash.9213]

Wild name for a trait but Pumping Up sounds like a nice change and would get more use and not force the use of your Heal. 

 

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

Now we're talkin

[FrancisN.9276]

Deadeye changes look really good. Daredevil, however, still needs more work in the boon generation department and should have its animation locking removed - animation locking is the worst survivability debuff on a class with the lowest HP and its sole defensive mechanism revolving around dodging.

Edited February 17 by FrancisN.9276

[Strutter.2719]

Havoc specialist change is good in theory but the devil is in the details. Agree that jumping around to maintain damage is a problem when stacking for healing is generally the tactic for most fights but what's the new damage modifier? If it's less than 15% then it's a nerf.

Accepting the increase to survivability, I'd be okay with reducing it to 10% but any lower and the trait will just get replaced.

Edited February 17 by Strutter.2719

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

This honestly looks great. Hope they follow through ^^

[Naxx.6203]

5 hours ago, Strutter.2719 said:

If it's less than 15% then it's a nerf.

I'm pretty sure that if they're going to reduce it, they would have written it in the notes.

Also, i think most of people always keep one dodge for mechanics/emergency so we usually benefit from 10% anyway. So it could even count as indirect buff if the mod stays at 15%.

[Strutter.2719]

5 minutes ago, Naxx.6203 said:

I'm pretty sure that if they're going to reduce it, they would have written it in the notes.

Also, i think most of people always keep one dodge for mechanics/emergency so we usually benefit from 10% anyway. So it could even count as indirect buff if the mod stays at 15%.

Can't speak for everyone, but usually the regeneration from steal is sufficient for emergency or mechanics so 15% bonus from using them all is pretty easy to maintain in most fights.

Fair point though and I mentioned that 10% would probably be okay to reflect the improved survivability you get from keeping some endurance for dodges which will replace holding a dodge back as you suggested. The other changes might also help to make up the difference, like increased base crit chance.

I'd love to believe that the lack of specifics means it'll stay at the maximum value but I have been main thief since launch so trust is not the highest xD

Edited February 17 by Strutter.2719

[TheThief.8475]

6 hours ago, Strutter.2719 said:

Havoc specialist change is good in theory but the devil is in the details. Agree that jumping around to maintain damage is a problem when stacking for healing is generally the tactic for most fights but what's the new damage modifier? If it's less than 15% then it's a nerf.

Accepting the increase to survivability, I'd be okay with reducing it to 10% but any lower and the trait will just get replaced.

In the steam they said bosun is 15%  for PvE and 10 for PvP, so it's a buff in most scenarios

[Strutter.2719]

2 hours ago, TheThief.8475 said:

In the steam they said bosun is 15%  for PvE and 10 for PvP, so it's a buff in most scenarios

That's awesome, thanks for the info

[FrancisN.9276]

I feared I was too optimistic about this patch because they finally gave daredevil a small buff, so I went to see what the rest of the balance patch for other classes, especially Willbender because this class is the closest one to Daredevil's identity (melee dps and mobility). It turns out they give Daredevil's evade frame on ultimate to Willbender's ultimate (which is extremely similar to Daredevil's ultimate, but has already dealt 2x damage and defiance break), on top of giving them more healing, condi cleanse and vigor generation. So now Willbender has endurance dodge, F2 dodge, ultimate dodge, shadow step with healing and condi cleanse, all from base skills and utilities without the need for any traitline - and all 3 dodge mechanics are on separate cooldowns. It is very balanced, isn't it?

[Bunny.9834]

give daredevil self quickness 

buff sword in pve. 

 

 

[Zacchary.6183]

3 hours ago, FrancisN.9276 said:

I feared I was too optimistic about this patch because they finally gave daredevil a small buff, so I went to see what the rest of the balance patch for other classes, especially Willbender because this class is the closest one to Daredevil's identity (melee dps and mobility). It turns out they give Daredevil's evade frame on ultimate to Willbender's ultimate (which is extremely similar to Daredevil's ultimate, but has already dealt 2x damage and defiance break), on top of giving them more healing, condi cleanse and vigor generation. So now Willbender has endurance dodge, F2 dodge, ultimate dodge, shadow step with healing and condi cleanse, all from base skills and utilities without the need for any traitline - and all 3 dodge mechanics are on separate cooldowns. It is very balanced, isn't it?

You mean Blue Thief?

[BobbyT.7192]

Quote

This trait now gives base critical chance that is increased above the health threshold.

I'm not understanding the wording on that. Besides the health threshold percentage change, did something else change? or is it still just increase crit chance above the health threshold? what they have written there makes it seem otherwise to me.

[TheThief.8475]

9 hours ago, BobbyT.7192 said:

I'm not understanding the wording on that. Besides the health threshold percentage change, did something else change? or is it still just increase crit chance above the health threshold? what they have written there makes it seem otherwise to me.

Before it gave bonus critical change when hitting from behind of the sides, now the bonus is there always, even when hitting from the front, so yes, it's a buff in PvP and a QoL buff in PvE 

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

16 hours ago, FrancisN.9276 said:

I feared I was too optimistic about this patch because they finally gave daredevil a small buff, so I went to see what the rest of the balance patch for other classes, especially Willbender because this class is the closest one to Daredevil's identity (melee dps and mobility). It turns out they give Daredevil's evade frame on ultimate to Willbender's ultimate (which is extremely similar to Daredevil's ultimate, but has already dealt 2x damage and defiance break), on top of giving them more healing, condi cleanse and vigor generation. So now Willbender has endurance dodge, F2 dodge, ultimate dodge, shadow step with healing and condi cleanse, all from base skills and utilities without the need for any traitline - and all 3 dodge mechanics are on separate cooldowns. It is very balanced, isn't it?

I'll be honest, I'm not usually too bothered about what other classes have (the bigger they are, the harder their ego's fall when you stab them in the kneecap) but I do draw the line at requiring the thief kit to be functional. This patch is the first step the Devs have taken in a very long time into making underpowered thief things functional, and that is always welcome. 

[BobbyT.7192]

55 minutes ago, TheThief.8475 said:

Before it gave bonus critical change when hitting from behind of the sides, now the bonus is there always, even when hitting from the front, so yes, it's a buff in PvP and a QoL buff in PvE 

I was more talking about Keen Observer than Twin Strikes.

TS also had a health threshold component for critical damage, as well as the increase crit chance from behind. Doesn't seem like the new TS will have the added crit chance anymore. So I wonder if it will be rolled in KO

KO is a total of 15% (10 pvp) currently, with TW adding 7 for total of 21% ( 17).

I don't see them making the new KO give 20% in my pessimistic opinion. 

[Asur.9178]

Below are my thoughts on the changes.

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Thief:

Quote

Double Tap: This skill now pierces.

• Very good change - needed to happen a long time ago.

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Three Round Burst: This skill now pierces.

• Very good change - needed to happen a long time ago.

Quote

Tactical Strike: This skill now dazes for 1 second instead of blinding when striking from the front. Increased the power coefficient from 1.0 to 1.33.

• Good change - daze is significantly better than the blind, which would instantly get removed if there was some kind of pulsing damage for example. Flat 2s would have been preferable instead of requiring positioning just for an extra 1s as it is not "Backstab", but understandable.

Quote

Larcenous Strike: Increased the power coefficient from 1.3 to 1.4 in PvP and WvW.

• Good change - not that significant by any means, but anything that helps sword in PvP and/or PvE is a good change as that weapon needs help.

Quote

Shadow Portal: This skill no longer breaks stun.

• Understandable change for PvP.

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Keen Observer: Reduced the health threshold from 75% to 50% in PvE only. This trait now gives base critical chance that is increased above the health threshold.

• Very good change - making a portion of it baseline is a great change as the 90% in PvP was really bad as the trait would be dead after a single hit. They do not mention how much of it is baseline, but hopefully it's not lower than 5%.

Twin Fangs: Reduced the health threshold from 90% to 50% in PvE only. This trait now gives base critical damage that is increased above the health threshold.

• Very good change - Similar to Keen Observer, making a portion of it baseline is a great change as the 90% in PvP was really bad as the trait would be dead after a single hit. They do not mention how much of it is baseline, but hopefully it's not lower than 4%.
• The above changes with Keen Observer and Twin Fangs should be applied in similar fashion to Ferocious Strikes, where part of it (say 5%) is made baseline and the additional applies only when the target is above 50%. Currently, this "Minor Grandmaster" trait basically becomes dead after 50%.

Quote

Deadly Aim: This trait no longer reduces damage and now increases damage from pistol and harpoon gun attacks by 10%.

• Decent change - needed to happen a long time ago, but I would have preferred a completely different trait (not necessarily for pistol). 10% is nothing to scoff at; P/P>3 set to auto-attack>mostly afk gameplay will become a thing among the lazy players. Basically akin to the rifle Mechanist nonsense. This will more than likely, inevitably, result in a nerf in some form in the future - not something I am looking forward to.

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Vigorous Recovery: This trait has been reworked and renamed to Pumping Up. Gain might when you dodge.

• Indifferent change - the effectiveness of this trait and its ability to compete with Pain Response hinges complete on how much might it provides and how long each application lasts. This is akin to having Bowls of Orrian Truffle and Meat Stew; except the food also provides 40% endurance regeneration.

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Upper Hand: This trait now additionally restores initiative when you dodge.

• Very good change - however, the question is will it provide the extra initiative from evading an attack as well while dodging? Ie. will you get back 2 initiative if you evade an attack while dodging?

Quote

Daredevil:

Quote

Havoc Specialist: This trait now gives a flat damage bonus when your endurance is not full instead of scaling with remaining endurance.

• Very good change - needed to happen a long time ago. This was mentioned to be 10% in PvP and 15% in PvE.
• Staff Master and Pulmonary Impact are still terrible comparatively though. Can't win them all I guess.

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Deadeye:

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Stolen Skills: Increased the power coefficient from 0.5 to 1.25 in PvE only.

• Very good change -  this will help quickness DE a lot and also help solidify rifle DE in endgame PvE.

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Shadow Meld: Reduced the count recharge from 45 seconds to 25 seconds in PvE only.

• Very good change - this will help solidify rifle DE in endgame PvE. Having said that, it's still bad that it does not remove revealed anymore in PvP. I guess the balance is trying to correct the mistakes of the encounter design team.

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One in the Chamber: Increased the damage bonus from 10% to 25% in PvE only.

• Good change - this will help quickness DE a lot.

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Mercy: Increased the ammunition count from 1 to 2 in PvE only.

• Very good change - this will solidify rifle DE in PvE endgame. Once again, I guess the balance is trying to correct the mistakes of the encounter design team.

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Collateral Damage: Increased the damage coefficient from 1.5 to 2.5 in PvE only.

• Indifferent change - this is one of those traits that doesn't really get used at all at end game because the other 2 choices are significantly better, but somewhere someone is playing around with it in open world.

A bit flabbergasted that Specter got no changes - in particular Consume Shadows and Amplified Siphoning. As mentioned earlier, can't win them all.

I also see that they still did not remove the Specter tradeoff yet, even though they said it will be removed in the future over a year ago in stream.

Been a long time; I might just come back to this game with the proposed changes to Sword and Acrobatics - though I'm still HIGHLY disappointed to see that Preparedness and Sleight of Hand (Trickery in general) is still a problem.

NB. Format is messed up, but maybe I will fix it later.

Edited February 20 by Asur.9178
Fixed some formatting stuff.

[Tails.9372]

On 2/18/2024 at 7:47 PM, Asur.9178 said:

10% is nothing to scoff at; P/P>3 set to auto-attack>mostly afk gameplay will become a thing among the lazy players. Basically akin to the rifle Mechanist nonsense. This will more than likely, inevitably, result in a nerf in some form in the future

You do realize that even after the buff rifle Mech would still be the vastly superior choice for "lazy people", right? The buff doesn't even change anything substantial for instanced boss fights and for OW content rifle Mech would also still be a vastly superior choice, even on a considerably more defensive build, as the damage would still be relatively comparable while offering more range, a vastly better survivability and an even more passive playstyle that, unlike with the thief, doesn't have to compromise anything for its basic utility.

From a practical perspective the notion that this would "result in a nerf" for P/P thiefs is rather absurd but then again thief has gotten some absurd nerfs in the past so I guess there is that.

Edited February 20 by Tails.9372

[Asra.8746]

5 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

You do realize that even after the buff rifle Mech would still be the vastly superior choice for "lazy people", right? The buff doesn't even change anything substantial for instanced boss fights and for OW content rifle Mech would also still be a vastly superior choice, even on a considerably more defensive build, as the damage would still be relatively comparable while offering more range, a vastly better survivability and an even more passive playstyle that, unlike with the thief, doesn't have to compromise anything for its basic utility.

From a practical perspective the notion that this would "result in a nerf" for P/P thiefs is rather absurd but then again thief has gotten some absurd nerfs in the past so I guess there is that.

They said "akin to". Which translates to "similar to". Which is very accurate if you know anything about the afk rifle Mech. Nowhere did they say it's better than the other or something of that sort. Where did you even read something like that?

The buff most definitely changes something "substantial for instanced boss fights and for OW content". What are you even talking about? A straight 10% damage buff on pistol changes a lot. Arguing that people will not play it because afk rifle Mech might be better is nothing but feigning ignorance in an attempt to try not get it nerfed before it's even introduced. P/P 3 spam afk Thief only needs 1 single utility...in fact, you can easily play a quickness DE with it and afk most of the time if you wanted to.

By your logic, every single dps player (including the "hi dps" players) in the game plays the same class/spec/build simply because that said class/spec/build is better than the rest...which couldn't be further from the truth.

Also, I completely agree with them. I can already see this trait getting nerfed as fast as it is being added. It'd be a miracle if it doesn't get nerfed.

[Tails.9372]

16 hours ago, Asra.8746 said:

Nowhere did they say it's better than the other or something of that sort. Where did you even read something like that?

So you didn't understand neither the point he made nor the post you were responding to. If there is no reason to asume that rifle Mech is going to get nerfed (which there isn't) why would you (or anyone) think that P/P, which is both objectively worse and "less lazy", is going to get one?

16 hours ago, Asra.8746 said:

The buff most definitely changes something "substantial for instanced boss fights and for OW content". What are you even talking about? A straight 10% damage buff on pistol changes a lot.

First things first good job on taking things out of context as "and for OW content" relates to "rifle Mech would..." so what exactly are you trying to do here? Argue against your own strawman?

Secondly, going from Practiced Tolerance to the new Deadly Aim would not be a "10% damage buff" for instanced boss fights.

[Asra.8746]

3 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

So you didn't understand neither the point he made nor the post you were responding to. If there is no reason to asume that rifle Mech is going to get nerfed (which there isn't) why would you (or anyone) think that P/P, which is both objectively worse and "less lazy", is going to get one?

First things first good job on taking things out of context as "and for OW content" relates to "rifle Mech would..." so what exactly are you trying to do here? Argue against your own strawman?

Secondly, going from Practiced Tolerance to the new Deadly Aim would not be a "10% damage buff" for instanced boss fights.

I understood them fine. You're the one that was/is clearly confused by what they said. "Akin to" is a very simple term. You're reading into something that isn't there.

Rifle mech was nerfed numerous times. You don't seem to know what you're talking about and you seem to be arguing regarding something that isn't even there, just for the sake of arguing. It's funny you bring up "straw man", when you're the one who started with it from their comment. 🤡

Anyways, enjoy the inevitable nerf that you seem to be desperately hoping it doesn't get - whether it be within weeks/months/years is another question.

[Tails.9372]

20 hours ago, Asra.8746 said:

I understood them fine.

No you don't, you seem to have a strange fixation on the words "akin to" but that only shows that you don't understand the points being made.

20 hours ago, Asra.8746 said:

Rifle mech was nerfed numerous times.

And even the devs seem to have realized that their latest nerf went overboard as the last couple of balance changes for mech were all aimed to dial it back.

20 hours ago, Asra.8746 said:

You don't seem to know what you're talking about and you seem to be arguing regarding something that isn't even there, just for the sake of arguing.

Aren't you talking about yourself here? You didn't even seem to know that people don't use the AoE trait for content that puts them up against a singular target. Also, I'm arguing for the sake of the subject matter which is the point of these forums but at this point your whole argument essentially boils down to "its going to get nerfed because it's going to get nerfed" which is based on nothing that holds up to scrutiny (talk about "arguing for the sake of arguing"). Even the limited infos we have (like the statistics on GW2 Wingman) show that things like them turning P/P 3 into a glorified AA didn't do anything to make people pick up the build so expecting a change that makes you go from +10% damage from Practiced Tolerance to +10% damage from Deadly Aim to make people flock to P/P thief to the point to which the devs feel like having to nerf it is rather nonsensical.

20 hours ago, Asra.8746 said:

It's funny you bring up "straw man", when you're the one who started with it from their comment. 🤡

So I take that you don't even know what a strawman is then.

Edited February 20 by Tails.9372

[Asur.9178]

16 hours ago, Asra.8746 said:

I understood them fine. You're the one that was/is clearly confused by what they said. "Akin to" is a very simple term. You're reading into something that isn't there.

Rifle mech was nerfed numerous times. You don't seem to know what you're talking about and you seem to be arguing regarding something that isn't even there, just for the sake of arguing. It's funny you bring up "straw man", when you're the one who started with it from their comment. 🤡

Anyways, enjoy the inevitable nerf that you seem to be desperately hoping it doesn't get - whether it be within weeks/months/years is another question.

You understood me fine; they did not - it's okay. Misunderstandings are inevitable in the internet and some people just need something to argue about.

Don't continue going back and forth with them and de-railing the thread further as you both seem to be a bit argumentative. I see they responded above - just be the bigger person and ignore it.

[Tails.9372]

1 hour ago, Asur.9178 said:

You understood me fine; they did not

If "the 10% increase in damage of that trait will lead the build to become more popular among lazy people similar to how it is with rifle mech but to the point where the devs will feel inclined to nerf it again" was not the point you're trying to make then you should have been more clear if you don't want people to misunderstand you.

Also, as I said the point of a forum is to have discussions about the subject matters in question which would ofc. include arguments about things people disagree with. Sadly many people default to argue in bad faith especially when faced with something they disagree with.

Edited February 20 by Tails.9372