The fact people get mad at willbender

[Kuya.6495]

Proves to me that even if we deleted stealth from the game, people would still hate thief/want thief nerfed because what is a willbender but a blue thief without stealth? So does it make sense to bring up stealth when discussing balancing thief when people also want willbender nerfed too for the same things thief has (mobility and burst damage)?

[Frequency.6407]

Thief doesn't have blocks

[Kuya.6495]

12 minutes ago, Frequency.6407 said:

Thief doesn't have blocks

I'm not saying people aren't justified to get mad at willbender. I'm saying if stealth were removed, people would still hate on thief for the same reason they don't like willbender: getting "1 shot" by something with instant ports.

Edited February 26 by Kuya.6495

[Arheundel.6451]

1 hour ago, Frequency.6407 said:

Thief doesn't have blocks

Thief has blocks...and some do use it

[arazoth.7290]

If stealth "was" be removed, it would need compensation elsewhere. Look at dragonhunter when stealth relic trap got removed and they got compensation for it

Edited February 26 by arazoth.7290

[Flowki.7194]

WB is the SPB of dps, you can't counter pressure/CC like any balanced ecnounter should go, becuase WB block/stability. Power mirage is the magic virsion of WB (but worse), jumping with daze spam then blocks/invuln shutting down any counter pressure. For some reason people think these kind of mechanics lead to skill based encounters. Unblockables are not a healthy fix either, not all specs spew out blocks, but depend on the one or two they have.

 

Its by design anyway; WB is just a more forgiving herald, Core gaurd a more forgiving <insert any support> and DH, I don't even know, an easier power untamed or something. Not trying to kitten on gaurdian mains but be real for a second, that all didnt just happen by accident.

Edited February 26 by Flowki.7194

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

Proves to me that even if we deleted stealth from the game, people would still hate thief/want thief nerfed because what is a willbender but a blue thief without stealth? So does it make sense to bring up stealth when discussing balancing thief when people also want willbender nerfed too for the same things thief has (mobility and burst damage)?

Correct.  The issue is that there is far too much access to disengage abilities in GW2 PvP game modes.  This includes both stealth and mobility.  In my opinion, game design would be easier and combat would be more satisfying if such abilities were far more limited and focused on engaging rather than allowing players to endlessly reset fights or walk away whenever they please.

[Myror.7521]

@Flowki.7194 i kinda wish we (Warriors) would be able to play without extra Defence skills like full counter ....... the sad trueth is we lack in terms of self defence and damage against ranged weapons. This fact makes it nearly Impossible to counter play ranged stuff without full counter like mechanics. (Also the fact warr in general lacks in terms of raw power dmg does not makes it any better tho)

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

People hate willbender cause its hard carried by F3 -> RF -> F3. All you do is kite around them waiting for their boons to fall off.

[Flowki.7194]

24 minutes ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Flowki.7194 i kinda wish we (Warriors) would be able to play without extra Defence skills like full counter ....... the sad trueth is we lack in terms of self defence and damage against ranged weapons. This fact makes it nearly Impossible to counter play ranged stuff without full counter like mechanics. (Also the fact warr in general lacks in terms of raw power dmg does not makes it any better tho)

Well I wish theyd do something becuase I'm absolutely done with fighting SPBs, with their snowball stability on stun, and blocks/counter to ensure you can't outplay them even if you dodge/pre-stab CC. I played against a power zerker the other day, and they were far more honest duels.

 

If SPB wasnt rewarded with stab for doing absolutely nothing special, it would be a half decent duel.

Edited February 26 by Flowki.7194

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

3 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

Even if we deleted stealth from the game, people would still hate thief/want thief nerfed

*Quiet golf clapping*

31 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

I played against a power zerker the other day, and they were far more honest duels.

*Quiet golf clapping*

[Lucentfir.7430]

6 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

 I played against a power zerker the other day, and they were far more honest duels.

 

If SPB wasnt rewarded with stab for doing absolutely nothing special, it would be a half decent duel.

Ofc  the perception of honest would be power zerker, the class that gets kitten by weakness, blind, and has very limited ways to remove or deal with boons/Prot, much like core warrior. I will say you should give strength/dis/spb a shot if your whole thing is about "skillful" play.

 

Stalwart Strength is definitely doing something special for its stability, it has counterplay to it being evading/blocking/blinding ccs or just having stability since it needs a sucessful cc to proc and not just hitting someone with a cc skill , especially when compared to something like Staunch Auras. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

Ofc  the perception of honest would be power zerker, the class that gets kitten by weakness, blind, and has very limited ways to remove or deal with boons/Prot, much like core warrior. I will say you should give strength/dis/spb a shot if your whole thing is about "skillful" play.

 

Stalwart Strength is definitely doing something special for its stability, it has counterplay to it being evading/blocking/blinding ccs or just having stability since it needs a sucessful cc to proc and not just hitting someone with a cc skill , especially when compared to something like Staunch Auras. 

 

 

 

 

 

If what you say was true, the goto for ranked/arena melee duelist would be hammer cata, but it isnt, and never has been for as long as ive played. Even when it was meta/great I rarely seen it used. Its not just about the SPB stab, its the combination of everything else it brings. Holo is strong af, but even still, I find it a better duel, it dies easier for mistakes. Its not always about meta status, but how things are to fight.

Edited February 27 by Flowki.7194

[Lucentfir.7430]

1 hour ago, Flowki.7194 said:

If what you say was true, the goto for ranked/arena melee duelist would be hammer cata, but it isnt, and never has been for as long as ive played. Even when it was meta/great I rarely seen it used. Its not just about the SPB stab, its the combination of everything else it brings. Holo is strong af, but even still, I find it a better duel, it dies easier for mistakes. Its not always about meta status, but how things are to fight.

It was for a time when signet cata dominated, and during that time I've ran into plenty of well played hammer catas. Cata is still a thing in wvw too btw, it's also obnoxious af to fight against in roaming/low man. Also by no means is Spb meta either.

Combination of Everything else it brings, you mean the fact that it removes boons the crutch that every boon heavy spec relies on? Warriors bring CC/and sometimes damage to the table, which non of those are exclusive to warrior. You don't deal with blinds, ports, pure invulns, or AoE Vomit when you fight spb and is in fact 95% of the time melee. For duels having better duels is subjective since  It's all about the class you play against said classes(your match ups/builds), like engi/ranger/ele/mesmer are all obnoxious fights in the hands of good players for things like warrior because they have all the tools to shut you down or just kite you out. Meanwhile I can hop on Deva Vindicator and completely blow most of these up  up since it has the ports, resistance, unblockable and burst damage to heavily shift things in my favor quickly.  Well played Vindi can also blow up Spb and most forms of warrior pretty easy too. 🤷‍♂️

Edited February 27 by Lucentfir.7430

[Myror.7521]

@Lucentfir.7430 well the sad trueth is. Warrior still relies on hit peops to do dmg, get passive heal, remove boons, get Stabi (when traited), remove conditions. its like you could complete shut down a warrior by dodging their burst Skills. Thats also the reason why they are eather realy good or just Bad xd.

 

Like If they do the adrenal Health line on use instead of on hit would make warrs life a bit easier but for some reason they Said they want to do it and in the end they just didn't lol

Edited February 27 by Myror.7521

[Flowki.7194]

17 hours ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

It was for a time when signet cata dominated, and during that time I've ran into plenty of well played hammer catas. Cata is still a thing in wvw too btw, it's also obnoxious af to fight against in roaming/low man. Also by no means is Spb meta either.

Combination of Everything else it brings, you mean the fact that it removes boons the crutch that every boon heavy spec relies on? Warriors bring CC/and sometimes damage to the table, which non of those are exclusive to warrior. You don't deal with blinds, ports, pure invulns, or AoE Vomit when you fight spb and is in fact 95% of the time melee. For duels having better duels is subjective since  It's all about the class you play against said classes(your match ups/builds), like engi/ranger/ele/mesmer are all obnoxious fights in the hands of good players for things like warrior because they have all the tools to shut you down or just kite you out. Meanwhile I can hop on Deva Vindicator and completely blow most of these up  up since it has the ports, resistance, unblockable and burst damage to heavily shift things in my favor quickly.  Well played Vindi can also blow up Spb and most forms of warrior pretty easy too. 🤷‍♂️

Well first off you need to know that I am not bias to any class/spec. Hammer catas power co/damage output is rediculously high.. yet the spec has 0 mobility, very close range, and bad CC. That combination is horrible, I would straight vote for less power co but more hammer mobility (doesnt need more CC, thats already SPB). Im agreing with you, hammer cata isnt perfect, just like SPB. Both specs unhealthily over perform in some mechanics, making them horendous to fight for some/many specs <skill no longer matters>. At the same time, both specs massively underperform in other aspects, making them annoying to play against specs that can abuse that gap <skill no longer matters>. Im not even sure why you are bringing in the signet bs, as if I am going to do anything other than agree with you? Its a pointless point.

 

What you are then touching on is ANETS continual lazy design. So many specs spam low skill boons, HOWEVER, the specs depend on those boons by design. Rather than reduce boon spam OR make it more skill indexed, the counter is easy boon rips (again shown by the new relic). Cheap counter for cheap boon spam, nobody wins. SPB does both, easy boon rip+easy stability in a duel. Now don't confuse effectiveness of SPB here, its not the same thing, although SPBs love to call out how totally ineffective the spec is, which is absolute over dramatic bs. The SPB is rewarded with boon rips/stab for doing what it was going to do anyway, thats why its easy, effectiveness is another thing. Take demon legend on revenent as a prime example, the boon rip is a complete seperate ability, with a high energy cost. It isn't hard to use true, and can be used at range, increasing effectiveness, but there is a clear concious requirement in when to use it, becuase it isn't attatched to another useful function. Yes I know, a good SPB will boon rip for the right time, but you know kitten well many SPBs just get boon rips as a by-product of their other intentions. Now again, for balance, I play a lot of rev, but you will never, ever here me defend vindi doing damage just for dodging, its bs, the game is full of bad mechanics, and a playerbase that defends them.

 

I also don't understand why people keep suggesting cata of any sort is a common represented spec, it isn't, outside of the signet phase. Tempest was/is more common, and as of recent weaver.. but they are still nowhere near as represented as other classes.

 

Btw: Just finished a game with 4 SPBs in it. I have never, ever seen an sPVP game with 4 hammer/scepter catas, even when they were meta, (-signet phase). Again, like I said, its not about meta status to decide good/bad mechanics.

Edited February 27 by Flowki.7194

[Frequency.6407]

We've come a full circle from the release of EoD where teams were full of cata/spb/harbs/mechs/vindis/benders to a pre EoD phase where teams are now full of 2+ reapers, a guard  and 2 randos.

[Wolf.1972]

On 2/26/2024 at 6:46 AM, Kuya.6495 said:

Proves to me that even if we deleted stealth from the game, people would still hate thief/want thief nerfed because what is a willbender but a blue thief without stealth? So does it make sense to bring up stealth when discussing balancing thief when people also want willbender nerfed too for the same things thief has (mobility and burst damage)?

I'm only mad when they run away because they're losing 😎